Overpayment of Income Support (DWP Recovery from Estates)

[Terry Tomato]

Hello, all -

I'm the executor for an estate. Everything's been going fine - probate
went through some time ago, creditors have been paid, the estate's
assets have been distributed to the beneficiaries, and everyone's satisfied.

Except... The estate was all but wound up, and out of the blue I
received a letter from the Department for Work and Pensions's Recovery
from Estates department a couple of days ago, asking me to provide
information about the estate in case any Income Support (which was being
paid to the deceased for a couple of years before he died) had been
overpaid.

I hadn't bothered to place a notice for creditors in the Gazette,
because as far as I was concerned, the estate's creditors were
straightforward - cut and dried.

Even if the DWP were to decide that Income Support had been overpaid,
which I certainly hope they wouldn't, what gives them the right to start
claiming money from the estate? Would the deceased (my grandfather, who
would have been unwell and not exactly compos mentis at the time) have
signed something allowing them to do so? It seems very strange, and
actually a bit distateful, that they should try to recover money from an
estate instead of simply ensuring the correct money was being paid while
he was alive. According to a family member, a DWP officer actually went
round to my grandfather's house, went through his bank account paperwork
/ other assets and filled in the Income Support application for him.

Silly question, I hope, especially since they're a government
department, but are they just trying it on? Is there any way I can tell
them to take a running jump? (Note that I am NOT suggesting that I want
to defraud them or refuse to pay if I have to.)

I don't want to respond to the DWP about this until I'm in full
possession of the facts, so I'd be grateful for any help, insight or
background information anyone could provide.

As ever, many thanks to everyone in this group
Terry

[Helen]

Post by Terry Tomato
Hello, all -
I'm the executor for an estate. Everything's been going fine - probate
went through some time ago, creditors have been paid, the estate's
assets have been distributed to the beneficiaries, and everyone's satisfied.
Except... The estate was all but wound up, and out of the blue I
received a letter from the Department for Work and Pensions's Recovery
from Estates department a couple of days ago, asking me to provide
information about the estate in case any Income Support (which was being
paid to the deceased for a couple of years before he died) had been
overpaid.
I hadn't bothered to place a notice for creditors in the Gazette,
because as far as I was concerned, the estate's creditors were
straightforward - cut and dried.
Even if the DWP were to decide that Income Support had been overpaid,
which I certainly hope they wouldn't, what gives them the right to start
claiming money from the estate? Would the deceased (my grandfather, who
would have been unwell and not exactly compos mentis at the time) have
signed something allowing them to do so? It seems very strange, and
actually a bit distateful, that they should try to recover money from an
estate instead of simply ensuring the correct money was being paid while
he was alive. According to a family member, a DWP officer actually went
round to my grandfather's house, went through his bank account paperwork
/ other assets and filled in the Income Support application for him.
Silly question, I hope, especially since they're a government
department, but are they just trying it on? Is there any way I can tell
them to take a running jump? (Note that I am NOT suggesting that I want
to defraud them or refuse to pay if I have to.)
I don't want to respond to the DWP about this until I'm in full
possession of the facts, so I'd be grateful for any help, insight or
background information anyone could provide.
As ever, many thanks to everyone in this group
Terry

In my experience (this happened with a relative's estate), the DWP will be
looking to ensure that your grandfather was not claiming income support when
his savings exceeded the various limits. In my relative's case, she was
exceeding the savings limits (and knew she was doing so) and so the DWP
claimed several thousands from the estate.

[l***@end.of.message]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[k***@mwfree.net]

Post by Terry Tomato

Post by Terry Tomato
Hello, all -
I'm the executor for an estate. Everything's been going fine - probate
went through some time ago, creditors have been paid, the estate's
assets have been distributed to the beneficiaries, and everyone's

satisfied.

Post by Terry Tomato
Except... The estate was all but wound up, and out of the blue I
received a letter from the Department for Work and Pensions's Recovery
from Estates department a couple of days ago, asking me to provide
information about the estate in case any Income Support (which was being
paid to the deceased for a couple of years before he died) had been
overpaid.
I hadn't bothered to place a notice for creditors in the Gazette,
because as far as I was concerned, the estate's creditors were
straightforward - cut and dried.
Even if the DWP were to decide that Income Support had been overpaid,
which I certainly hope they wouldn't, what gives them the right to start
claiming money from the estate? Would the deceased (my grandfather, who
would have been unwell and not exactly compos mentis at the time) have
signed something allowing them to do so? It seems very strange, and
actually a bit distateful, that they should try to recover money from an
estate instead of simply ensuring the correct money was being paid while
he was alive. According to a family member, a DWP officer actually went
round to my grandfather's house, went through his bank account paperwork
/ other assets and filled in the Income Support application for him.
Silly question, I hope, especially since they're a government
department, but are they just trying it on? Is there any way I can tell
them to take a running jump? (Note that I am NOT suggesting that I want
to defraud them or refuse to pay if I have to.)
I don't want to respond to the DWP about this until I'm in full
possession of the facts, so I'd be grateful for any help, insight or
background information anyone could provide.
As ever, many thanks to everyone in this group
Terry

If your local DWP office is anything like mine you would never get any
response anyway, mind you if there was the prospect of reclaiming money
they would be on the ball and reply. Still waiting for the money these
parasites owe me after 9 months.

Kevin

[Clive Martin]

In message <***@nospam.com>, Terry Tomato
<***@nospam.com> writes

<SNIP>

Post by Terry Tomato
Even if the DWP were to decide that Income Support had been overpaid,
which I certainly hope they wouldn't, what gives them the right to start
claiming money from the estate?

Social Security Administration Act 1992, s.71, and see Secretary of
State for Social Security v Solly [1974] CA.

[GB]

Post by Terry Tomato
Hello, all -
I'm the executor for an estate. Everything's been going fine - probate
went through some time ago, creditors have been paid, the estate's
assets have been distributed to the beneficiaries, and everyone's satisfied.
Except... The estate was all but wound up, and out of the blue I
received a letter from the Department for Work and Pensions's Recovery
from Estates department a couple of days ago, asking me to provide
information about the estate in case any Income Support (which was being
paid to the deceased for a couple of years before he died) had been
overpaid.
I hadn't bothered to place a notice for creditors in the Gazette,
because as far as I was concerned, the estate's creditors were
straightforward - cut and dried.

S27 of Trustee Act 1925 does protect trustees/executors in cases like this
provided you follow the procedure laid down. You need to place an ad in the
Gazette and also one in a local paper.

I have just done this for a trust I am winding up, and the Gazette ad cost
GBP50 whilst the local rag charged GBP120.

Anyway, for anyone else treading this path, the procedure is:
a) Place ad in papers
b) Wait at least 2 months
c) Only then distribute the estate

If you skip any of these steps you lay yourself personally open to paying
DWP or any other creditor who emerges from the woodwork years afterwards.
The OP is lucky that the DWP have appeared on the scene fairly promptly.

Hopefully, when the OP says the estate's assets have been distributed he is
in a position to get the money back if needed to satisfy the DWP (or perhaps
he was the main beneficiary?). Otherwise, he could well be out of pocket
personally. It's a bit late to help the OP, but I really think that people
take on trustee and executor jobs far too lightly without fully
understanding the risks they face. Amazingly enough, most people seem to
come through unscathed and hopefully the OP will too.

Geoff

[Terry Tomato]

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[Stuart A. Bronstein]

Post by Terry Tomato
I *wanted* a solicitor to handle everything, but had the
misfortune to find nothing but shysters and greed as soon as I
mentioned the word 'probate'. Let me emphasise, by the way, that
I'm not some anti-legal profession malcontent, and that before
all this I'd been lucky enough to receive nothing but good
service. The solicitors I had contact with seemed to treat
probate work as a licence to print money, exploiting the fact
that most grieving people probably just want someone to take the
burden and don't pay much attention to what's going on or how
much it costs.

On more than on occasion I have had clients (in the USA) whose
relative in the UK died. The first time I got high recommendations
to several solicitors at large firms, and my reaction was similar
to yours.

I then was referred to a small firm, and the people there could not
have been better. The price was very reasonable, the solicitors
were helpful and responsive. And I have used the same firm again.
The thing I learned is that the firm needn't be local to be able to
do the job properly.

I'm sorry you had such a bad experience. Good luck with this last
challenge.

Stu

[GB]

Post by Terry Tomato
As for people taking on trustee and executor jobs far too lightly, it
may be true, but in my opinion the legal profession is partially to blame.
I *wanted* a solicitor to handle everything, but had the misfortune to
find nothing but shysters and greed as soon as I mentioned the word
'probate'.

I can't comment, but the small local firms of solicitors I know in London
want around GBP120 to 150 per hour + VAT. This sort of work is
time-consuming - it literally eats up the hours. It would be interesting to
hear how much time you spent on this?

Obviously, the solicitor gets that net of tax and his overheads (so perhaps
he keeps a third of it), whereas you save the gross amount. So, if you can
do the work as quickly, there's a huge saving to be made - you are
effectively working at 3 times the net rate the solicitor gets.

[Terry Tomato]

Post by GB
I can't comment, but the small local firms of solicitors I know in London
want around GBP120 to 150 per hour + VAT. This sort of work is
time-consuming - it literally eats up the hours. It would be interesting to
hear how much time you spent on this?

I can't say for sure, because there was a certain amount of overhead as
it wasn't something I'd had to do before. Aside from getting to grips
with the processes and legality behind probate, I also had to blag my
way into a local university library and consult a couple of law books
because I had to construct two simple Deeds of Variation.

In terms of actual solid time spent going through all the account /
asset paperwork and completing the main forms (PA1 twice, IHT200,
IHT205) for both of my grandparents' probate applications (which were
done at the same time as they died in quick succession), it probably
took a full day and a half.

Thinking about it, if I were an experienced professional or even had to
go through the process again, I think it should probably be six to eight
hours' work, although obviously more if any unforeseen difficulties
arise. One of the main problems I had with the solicitors I saw was that
they charged a percentage of the estate rather than an hourly rate.

Terry

[Helen]

Post by Terry Tomato
Indeed - knowing what I do now, I'd have ensured that notices went in
the local paper and Gazette immediately. Fortunately, it's been the only
really stupid mistake I've made in the process so far.
Had I published the notices, it would have already been too late for the
DWP to claim anything. Annoyingly, and despite the fact that I had all
my grandfather's paperwork, I had absolutely no idea that he was
receiving Income Support, and no other family member remembered to tell me!
As for people taking on trustee and executor jobs far too lightly, it
may be true, but in my opinion the legal profession is partially to blame.

<snipped>

Post by Terry Tomato
In the end, I decided to do the work myself. Despite the learning curve,
hard work and stupid mistake I made about not publishing the notices in
the Gazette and local paper, I must say it's one of the best decisions
I've ever made.

But, the 'stupid mistake' not to put notices in the Gazette could
potentially cost an executor dearly. In your particular case, I assume you
will be able to easily reclaim money from the beneficiaries if the DWP finds
that income support was being claimed when savings were in excess of the
rules; i.e. you have a friendly family and can just ask them for some money
back ;) In the case of my relative's very small estate, this would not have
been possible - most of the 7 beneficiaries had not spoken for years and
were on opposite sides of a family falling-out going back 40+ years.

Doing it yourself is fine as long as you follow all the steps to the letter
and are aware of all the potential consequences.