Discussion:
The Manchester Arena bombing: a fact or a hoax?
Add Reply
The Todal
2024-10-23 13:13:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Of course it wasn't a hoax. What is surprising is that some sociopaths
are still making money from their conspiracy-theory websites (and from
their "books") claiming that it was a hoax.

See https://www.richplanet.net/
and
https://iaindavis.substack.com/p/the-bizarre-trial-of-richard-d-hall

Latest news about the High Court case of Hibbert v Hall: judgment has
been given by Mrs Justice Steyn and Richard Hall's claims that the
explosion at the Ariana Grande cooncert was a hoax are judged to
constitute the statutory tort of harassment. I assume damages will
subsequently be assessed. Worth a read.

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Hibbert-v-Hall-Judgment.pdf

Reminds me of the Sandy Hook school shooting, and Alex Jones jeering at
the victims and claiming that the shooting was a hoax, and being found
liable in damages. I wonder whether these people just declare bankruptcy
and continue the same behaviour.
Roger Hayter
2024-10-23 13:30:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Of course it wasn't a hoax. What is surprising is that some sociopaths
are still making money from their conspiracy-theory websites (and from
their "books") claiming that it was a hoax.
See https://www.richplanet.net/
and
https://iaindavis.substack.com/p/the-bizarre-trial-of-richard-d-hall
Latest news about the High Court case of Hibbert v Hall: judgment has
been given by Mrs Justice Steyn and Richard Hall's claims that the
explosion at the Ariana Grande cooncert was a hoax are judged to
constitute the statutory tort of harassment. I assume damages will
subsequently be assessed. Worth a read.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Hibbert-v-Hall-Judgment.pdf
Reminds me of the Sandy Hook school shooting, and Alex Jones jeering at
the victims and claiming that the shooting was a hoax, and being found
liable in damages. I wonder whether these people just declare bankruptcy
and continue the same behaviour.
In America, I expect they have rich backers fundamentally in favour of fascism
and intent on damaging the fabric of society on the way there. If the same is
true in this country it is very worrying. Whether the above defendants are
funded and by whom might be an important question for investigative
journalists.
--
Roger Hayter
JNugent
2024-10-23 15:08:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by The Todal
Of course it wasn't a hoax. What is surprising is that some sociopaths
are still making money from their conspiracy-theory websites (and from
their "books") claiming that it was a hoax.
See https://www.richplanet.net/
and
https://iaindavis.substack.com/p/the-bizarre-trial-of-richard-d-hall
Latest news about the High Court case of Hibbert v Hall: judgment has
been given by Mrs Justice Steyn and Richard Hall's claims that the
explosion at the Ariana Grande cooncert was a hoax are judged to
constitute the statutory tort of harassment. I assume damages will
subsequently be assessed. Worth a read.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Hibbert-v-Hall-Judgment.pdf
Reminds me of the Sandy Hook school shooting, and Alex Jones jeering at
the victims and claiming that the shooting was a hoax, and being found
liable in damages. I wonder whether these people just declare bankruptcy
and continue the same behaviour.
In America, I expect they have rich backers fundamentally in favour of fascism
and intent on damaging the fabric of society on the way there. If the same is
true in this country it is very worrying. Whether the above defendants are
funded and by whom might be an important question for investigative
journalists.
An "if", balanced precariously upon an "I expect"... how convincing!

What I expect is that The Washington Post and The Guardian's USA bods
have already tried that and found that there was nothing to find...

Some people are just flakily contrary.
Ottavio Caruso
2024-10-23 15:32:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by The Todal
Of course it wasn't a hoax. What is surprising is that some sociopaths
are still making money from their conspiracy-theory websites (and from
their "books") claiming that it was a hoax.
See https://www.richplanet.net/
and
https://iaindavis.substack.com/p/the-bizarre-trial-of-richard-d-hall
Latest news about the High Court case of Hibbert v Hall: judgment has
been given by Mrs Justice Steyn and Richard Hall's claims that the
explosion at the Ariana Grande cooncert was a hoax are judged to
constitute the statutory tort of harassment. I assume damages will
subsequently be assessed. Worth a read.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Hibbert-v-Hall-Judgment.pdf
Reminds me of the Sandy Hook school shooting, and Alex Jones jeering at
the victims and claiming that the shooting was a hoax, and being found
liable in damages. I wonder whether these people just declare bankruptcy
and continue the same behaviour.
In America, I expect they have rich backers fundamentally in favour of fascism
and intent on damaging the fabric of society on the way there. If the same is
true in this country it is very worrying. Whether the above defendants are
funded and by whom might be an important question for investigative
journalists.
Is the term "Fascism" employed in its historical meaning or as code for
"I don't agree with them"?
--
Ottavio Caruso
Roger Hayter
2024-10-23 20:02:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 23 Oct 2024 at 16:32:31 BST, "Ottavio Caruso"
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by The Todal
Of course it wasn't a hoax. What is surprising is that some sociopaths
are still making money from their conspiracy-theory websites (and from
their "books") claiming that it was a hoax.
See https://www.richplanet.net/
and
https://iaindavis.substack.com/p/the-bizarre-trial-of-richard-d-hall
Latest news about the High Court case of Hibbert v Hall: judgment has
been given by Mrs Justice Steyn and Richard Hall's claims that the
explosion at the Ariana Grande cooncert was a hoax are judged to
constitute the statutory tort of harassment. I assume damages will
subsequently be assessed. Worth a read.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Hibbert-v-Hall-Judgment.pdf
Reminds me of the Sandy Hook school shooting, and Alex Jones jeering at
the victims and claiming that the shooting was a hoax, and being found
liable in damages. I wonder whether these people just declare bankruptcy
and continue the same behaviour.
In America, I expect they have rich backers fundamentally in favour of fascism
and intent on damaging the fabric of society on the way there. If the same is
true in this country it is very worrying. Whether the above defendants are
funded and by whom might be an important question for investigative
journalists.
Is the term "Fascism" employed in its historical meaning or as code for
"I don't agree with them"?
In the sense of populist totalitarian government using racism and violence as
a way of winning support. And doubtless in league with at least some very rich
business men. Yes, 30's style fascism.
--
Roger Hayter
Ottavio Caruso
2024-10-24 15:25:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
In the sense of populist totalitarian government using racism and violence as
a way of winning support.
Like Mugabe's regime or Maduro's recently?
--
Ottavio Caruso
Roger Hayter
2024-10-24 16:58:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 24 Oct 2024 at 16:25:32 BST, "Ottavio Caruso"
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by Roger Hayter
In the sense of populist totalitarian government using racism and violence as
a way of winning support.
Like Mugabe's regime or Maduro's recently?
Certainly Mugabe, I don't know enough about Maduro.
--
Roger Hayter
Martin Brown
2024-10-24 10:22:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by The Todal
Of course it wasn't a hoax. What is surprising is that some sociopaths
are still making money from their conspiracy-theory websites (and from
their "books") claiming that it was a hoax.
See https://www.richplanet.net/
and
https://iaindavis.substack.com/p/the-bizarre-trial-of-richard-d-hall
Latest news about the High Court case of Hibbert v Hall: judgment has
been given by Mrs Justice Steyn and Richard Hall's claims that the
explosion at the Ariana Grande cooncert was a hoax are judged to
constitute the statutory tort of harassment. I assume damages will
subsequently be assessed. Worth a read.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Hibbert-v-Hall-Judgment.pdf
Reminds me of the Sandy Hook school shooting, and Alex Jones jeering at
the victims and claiming that the shooting was a hoax, and being found
liable in damages. I wonder whether these people just declare bankruptcy
and continue the same behaviour.
In America, I expect they have rich backers fundamentally in favour of fascism
and intent on damaging the fabric of society on the way there. If the same is
true in this country it is very worrying. Whether the above defendants are
funded and by whom might be an important question for investigative
journalists.
I hope that damages awarded are sufficient to discourage various other
conspiracy nutters from harassing victims of the Manchester arena
bombing. It needs to be a sufficient financial penalty to eliminate any
profits they have made from their outlandish claims and book sales.

They should not be allowed to profit from their actions, but
unfortunately the side effects of antisocial media are exactly that -
the conspiracy theorists making the wildest claims get most airtime :(

It would be better if the wheels of justice could work a bit faster too.
The victims of these bizarre allegations have had to suffer for a *very*
long time before the justice system finally did something about it.
--
Martin Brown
Jethro_uk
2024-10-24 13:06:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Martin Brown
It would be better if the wheels of justice could work a bit faster too.
The victims of these bizarre allegations have had to suffer for a *very*
long time
To the extent it's arguable it's not "justice" ....
GB
2024-10-25 10:38:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Martin Brown
It would be better if the wheels of justice could work a bit faster too.
The victims of these bizarre allegations have had to suffer for a *very*
long time
To the extent it's arguable it's not "justice" ....
Can you just explain that, please? The allegations made were clearly not
arguable.
Jethro_uk
2024-10-25 16:22:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by GB
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Martin Brown
It would be better if the wheels of justice could work a bit faster too.
The victims of these bizarre allegations have had to suffer for a *very*
long time
To the extent it's arguable it's not "justice" ....
Can you just explain that, please? The allegations made were clearly not
arguable.
Justice delayed is justice denied.
Martin Harran
2024-10-27 07:53:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 24 Oct 2024 11:22:53 +0100, Martin Brown
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by The Todal
Of course it wasn't a hoax. What is surprising is that some sociopaths
are still making money from their conspiracy-theory websites (and from
their "books") claiming that it was a hoax.
See https://www.richplanet.net/
and
https://iaindavis.substack.com/p/the-bizarre-trial-of-richard-d-hall
Latest news about the High Court case of Hibbert v Hall: judgment has
been given by Mrs Justice Steyn and Richard Hall's claims that the
explosion at the Ariana Grande cooncert was a hoax are judged to
constitute the statutory tort of harassment. I assume damages will
subsequently be assessed. Worth a read.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Hibbert-v-Hall-Judgment.pdf
Reminds me of the Sandy Hook school shooting, and Alex Jones jeering at
the victims and claiming that the shooting was a hoax, and being found
liable in damages. I wonder whether these people just declare bankruptcy
and continue the same behaviour.
In America, I expect they have rich backers fundamentally in favour of fascism
and intent on damaging the fabric of society on the way there. If the same is
true in this country it is very worrying. Whether the above defendants are
funded and by whom might be an important question for investigative
journalists.
I hope that damages awarded are sufficient to discourage various other
conspiracy nutters from harassing victims of the Manchester arena
bombing. It needs to be a sufficient financial penalty to eliminate any
profits they have made from their outlandish claims and book sales.
My bigger worry is those who buy such books.
Post by Martin Brown
They should not be allowed to profit from their actions, but
unfortunately the side effects of antisocial media are exactly that -
the conspiracy theorists making the wildest claims get most airtime :(
It would be better if the wheels of justice could work a bit faster too.
The victims of these bizarre allegations have had to suffer for a *very*
long time before the justice system finally did something about it.
JNugent
2024-10-27 13:32:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Martin Harran
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by The Todal
Of course it wasn't a hoax. What is surprising is that some sociopaths
are still making money from their conspiracy-theory websites (and from
their "books") claiming that it was a hoax.
See https://www.richplanet.net/ and
https://iaindavis.substack.com/p/the-bizarre-trial-of-richard-d-hall
Latest news about the High Court case of Hibbert v Hall: judgment has
been given by Mrs Justice Steyn and Richard Hall's claims that the
explosion at the Ariana Grande cooncert was a hoax are judged to
constitute the statutory tort of harassment. I assume damages will
subsequently be assessed. Worth a read.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Hibbert-v-Hall-Judgment.pdf
Reminds me of the Sandy Hook school shooting, and Alex Jones jeering at
the victims and claiming that the shooting was a hoax, and being found
liable in damages. I wonder whether these people just declare bankruptcy
and continue the same behaviour.
In America, I expect they have rich backers fundamentally in favour of fascism
and intent on damaging the fabric of society on the way there. If the same is
true in this country it is very worrying. Whether the above defendants are
funded and by whom might be an important question for investigative
journalists.
I hope that damages awarded are sufficient to discourage various other
conspiracy nutters from harassing victims of the Manchester arena
bombing. It needs to be a sufficient financial penalty to eliminate any
profits they have made from their outlandish claims and book sales.
My bigger worry is those who buy such books.
Perhaps they (the books) should be burned?
Post by Martin Harran
Post by Martin Brown
They should not be allowed to profit from their actions, but
unfortunately the side effects of antisocial media are exactly that -
the conspiracy theorists making the wildest claims get most airtime :(
It would be better if the wheels of justice could work a bit faster too.
The victims of these bizarre allegations have had to suffer for a *very*
long time before the justice system finally did something about it.
Martin Harran
2024-10-27 17:37:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Martin Harran
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by The Todal
Of course it wasn't a hoax. What is surprising is that some sociopaths
are still making money from their conspiracy-theory websites (and from
their "books") claiming that it was a hoax.
See https://www.richplanet.net/ and
https://iaindavis.substack.com/p/the-bizarre-trial-of-richard-d-hall
Latest news about the High Court case of Hibbert v Hall: judgment has
been given by Mrs Justice Steyn and Richard Hall's claims that the
explosion at the Ariana Grande cooncert was a hoax are judged to
constitute the statutory tort of harassment. I assume damages will
subsequently be assessed. Worth a read.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Hibbert-v-Hall-Judgment.pdf
Reminds me of the Sandy Hook school shooting, and Alex Jones jeering at
the victims and claiming that the shooting was a hoax, and being found
liable in damages. I wonder whether these people just declare bankruptcy
and continue the same behaviour.
In America, I expect they have rich backers fundamentally in favour of fascism
and intent on damaging the fabric of society on the way there. If the same is
true in this country it is very worrying. Whether the above defendants are
funded and by whom might be an important question for investigative
journalists.
I hope that damages awarded are sufficient to discourage various other
conspiracy nutters from harassing victims of the Manchester arena
bombing. It needs to be a sufficient financial penalty to eliminate any
profits they have made from their outlandish claims and book sales.
My bigger worry is those who buy such books.
Perhaps they (the books) should be burned?
Burning the books probably wouldn't do much to alter the mindsets of
those who would have bought them except that they would be easily
convinced that "they" were burning books to stop them accessing the
truth.
Post by JNugent
Post by Martin Harran
Post by Martin Brown
They should not be allowed to profit from their actions, but
unfortunately the side effects of antisocial media are exactly that -
the conspiracy theorists making the wildest claims get most airtime :(
It would be better if the wheels of justice could work a bit faster too.
The victims of these bizarre allegations have had to suffer for a *very*
long time before the justice system finally did something about it.
The Todal
2024-10-27 18:00:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Martin Harran
Post by JNugent
Post by Martin Harran
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by The Todal
Of course it wasn't a hoax. What is surprising is that some sociopaths
are still making money from their conspiracy-theory websites (and from
their "books") claiming that it was a hoax.
See https://www.richplanet.net/ and
https://iaindavis.substack.com/p/the-bizarre-trial-of-richard-d-hall
Latest news about the High Court case of Hibbert v Hall: judgment has
been given by Mrs Justice Steyn and Richard Hall's claims that the
explosion at the Ariana Grande cooncert was a hoax are judged to
constitute the statutory tort of harassment. I assume damages will
subsequently be assessed. Worth a read.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Hibbert-v-Hall-Judgment.pdf
Reminds me of the Sandy Hook school shooting, and Alex Jones jeering at
the victims and claiming that the shooting was a hoax, and being found
liable in damages. I wonder whether these people just declare bankruptcy
and continue the same behaviour.
In America, I expect they have rich backers fundamentally in favour of fascism
and intent on damaging the fabric of society on the way there. If the same is
true in this country it is very worrying. Whether the above defendants are
funded and by whom might be an important question for investigative
journalists.
I hope that damages awarded are sufficient to discourage various other
conspiracy nutters from harassing victims of the Manchester arena
bombing. It needs to be a sufficient financial penalty to eliminate any
profits they have made from their outlandish claims and book sales.
My bigger worry is those who buy such books.
Perhaps they (the books) should be burned?
Burning the books probably wouldn't do much to alter the mindsets of
those who would have bought them except that they would be easily
convinced that "they" were burning books to stop them accessing the
truth.
The lengthy judgment is especially interesting when it discusses the
possible defences that were argued by Mr Hall.

He argued that he was expressing merely opinions, not facts, which would
have given him a defence in any defamation action. The judge found that
what he was alleging plainly amounted to facts not opinions and anyway
the argument had no relevance when it came to harassment rather than
defamation (maybe Mr Hall thought that the only possible risk was a
claim for defamation).

And he argued that he did not think his quoted words were likely to
cause distress.

quote

Mr Hall’s evidence was that, at “no time did I believe or suspect or
know, that my actions of publishing researched facts and some honest
opinion could or would cause harm to anyone” (RH2, §30). Equally, he
expressed a strong belief that all the steps he took in connection with
the visit to Eve’s home were justified in the public interest.
It is apparent from his videos that he knew he was at risk of having
either particular videos taken down by streaming channels, or having
whole accounts closed, and that the reasons given related to the impact
of his allegations that major terrorist incidents were fabricated on the
victims of those tragedies. It might be thought this would put him on
notice that he was abusing his platform. Nevertheless, the impression
that I gained was that the defendant is so blinkered in his belief that
the false story he has spun is true, and so unreflective and insensitive
to the level of distress likely to be caused by his persistent attempts
to discredit what those who have suffered so tragically in the Attack
say about it, that he did not know his conduct amounted to harassment.
But the requirement in s.1(1)(b) may, alternatively, be met if the
claimant shows that the defendant should have known that his course of
conduct amounted to harassment. And in my view, that test is clearly met.
Martin Brown
2024-10-28 11:16:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Post by Martin Harran
Post by JNugent
Post by Martin Harran
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by The Todal
Of course it wasn't a hoax. What is surprising is that some sociopaths
are still making money from their conspiracy-theory websites (and from
their "books") claiming that it was a hoax.
See https://www.richplanet.net/ and
https://iaindavis.substack.com/p/the-bizarre-trial-of-richard-d-hall
Latest news about the High Court case of Hibbert v Hall: judgment has
been given by Mrs Justice Steyn and Richard Hall's claims that the
explosion at the Ariana Grande cooncert was a hoax are judged to
constitute the statutory tort of harassment. I assume damages will
subsequently be assessed.  Worth a read.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Hibbert-v-Hall-Judgment.pdf
Reminds me of the Sandy Hook school shooting, and Alex Jones jeering at
the victims and claiming that the shooting was a hoax, and being found
liable in damages. I wonder whether these people just declare bankruptcy
and continue the same behaviour.
In America, I expect they have rich backers fundamentally in favour of fascism
and intent on damaging the fabric of society on the way there.  If
the same is
true in this country it is very worrying. Whether the above defendants are
funded and by whom might be an important question for investigative
journalists.
I hope that damages awarded are sufficient to discourage various other
conspiracy nutters from harassing victims of the Manchester arena
bombing. It needs to be a sufficient financial penalty to eliminate any
profits they have made from their outlandish claims and book sales.
My bigger worry is those who buy such books.
Perhaps they (the books) should be burned?
Burning the books probably wouldn't do much to alter the mindsets of
those who would have bought them except that they would be easily
convinced that "they" were burning books to stop them accessing the
truth.
The lengthy judgment is especially interesting when it discusses the
possible defences that were argued by Mr Hall.
He argued that he was expressing merely opinions, not facts, which would
have given him a defence in any defamation action. The judge found that
what he was alleging plainly amounted to facts not opinions and anyway
the argument had no relevance when it came to harassment rather than
defamation (maybe Mr Hall thought that the only possible risk was a
claim for defamation).
And he argued that he did not think his quoted words were likely to
cause distress.
quote
Mr Hall’s evidence was that, at “no time did I believe or suspect or
know, that my actions of publishing researched facts and some honest
opinion could or would cause harm to anyone” (RH2, §30). Equally, he
expressed a strong belief that all the steps he took in connection with
the visit to Eve’s home were justified in the public interest.
It is apparent from his videos that he knew he was at risk of having
either particular videos taken down by streaming channels, or having
whole accounts closed, and that the reasons given related to the impact
of his allegations that major terrorist incidents were fabricated on the
victims of those tragedies. It might be thought this would put him on
notice that he was abusing his platform. Nevertheless, the impression
that I gained was that the defendant is so blinkered in his belief that
the false story he has spun is true, and so unreflective and insensitive
to the level of distress likely to be caused by his persistent attempts
to discredit what those who have suffered so tragically in the Attack
say about it, that he did not know his conduct amounted to harassment.
But the requirement in s.1(1)(b) may, alternatively, be met if the
claimant shows that the defendant should have known that his course of
conduct amounted to harassment. And in my view, that test is clearly met.
Unfortunately we live in a post truth world where any random nutter can
obtain an income and massive notoriety worldwide by posting complete
nonsense on anti-social media. The more controversial click bait they
post the more the algorithms direct like minded paranoid morons to it.

Free speech absolutists like Musk have now made it even easier for these
cranks to get a big following. It is hard to see a solution to this.
Critical thinking is not taught in schools so with a population that
cannot distinguish truth from lies reliably we have a big problem...

Does the anti-stalking legislation not provide an alternative reason for
prosecuting this individual? How do the penalties compare?
--
Martin Brown
Jethro_uk
2024-10-28 12:03:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Martin Brown
[quoted text muted]
Unfortunately we live in a post truth world where any random nutter can
obtain an income and massive notoriety worldwide by posting complete
nonsense on anti-social media. The more controversial click bait they
post the more the algorithms direct like minded paranoid morons to it.
Actively assisted by organisations who insist on "balance".

Here is a respected scientist with a reasoned and provable overview of a
complicated topic.

And here's Barry265 of Twitter who says it's aliens.
Jon Ribbens
2024-10-28 12:10:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Martin Brown
Unfortunately we live in a post truth world where any random nutter can
obtain an income and massive notoriety worldwide by posting complete
nonsense on anti-social media. The more controversial click bait they
post the more the algorithms direct like minded paranoid morons to it.
Free speech absolutists like Musk have now made it even easier for these
cranks to get a big following. It is hard to see a solution to this.
Critical thinking is not taught in schools so with a population that
cannot distinguish truth from lies reliably we have a big problem...
Musk isn't a "free speech absolutist". Like many people who claim to
be such, he's actually in favour of free speech that he agrees with,
and against free speech that he doesn't agree with.
JNugent
2024-10-27 17:58:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Martin Harran
Post by JNugent
Post by Martin Harran
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by The Todal
Of course it wasn't a hoax. What is surprising is that some sociopaths
are still making money from their conspiracy-theory websites (and from
their "books") claiming that it was a hoax.
See https://www.richplanet.net/ and
https://iaindavis.substack.com/p/the-bizarre-trial-of-richard-d-hall
Latest news about the High Court case of Hibbert v Hall: judgment has
been given by Mrs Justice Steyn and Richard Hall's claims that the
explosion at the Ariana Grande cooncert was a hoax are judged to
constitute the statutory tort of harassment. I assume damages will
subsequently be assessed. Worth a read.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Hibbert-v-Hall-Judgment.pdf
Reminds me of the Sandy Hook school shooting, and Alex Jones jeering at
the victims and claiming that the shooting was a hoax, and being found
liable in damages. I wonder whether these people just declare bankruptcy
and continue the same behaviour.
In America, I expect they have rich backers fundamentally in favour of fascism
and intent on damaging the fabric of society on the way there. If the same is
true in this country it is very worrying. Whether the above defendants are
funded and by whom might be an important question for investigative
journalists.
I hope that damages awarded are sufficient to discourage various other
conspiracy nutters from harassing victims of the Manchester arena
bombing. It needs to be a sufficient financial penalty to eliminate any
profits they have made from their outlandish claims and book sales.
My bigger worry is those who buy such books.
Perhaps they (the books) should be burned?
Burning the books probably wouldn't do much to alter the mindsets of
those who would have bought them except that they would be easily
convinced that "they" were burning books to stop them accessing the
truth.
That, I suggest, has been the general reaction to just about every
attempt to ban or suppress publication of books and other reading material.
Jon Ribbens
2024-10-23 14:44:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Of course it wasn't a hoax. What is surprising is that some sociopaths
are still making money from their conspiracy-theory websites (and from
their "books") claiming that it was a hoax.
See https://www.richplanet.net/
and
https://iaindavis.substack.com/p/the-bizarre-trial-of-richard-d-hall
I've read the latter of those, and it is truly impressively stupid,
to the extent that the author, who apparently was sat in court during
the hearing, appears somehow to be under the misapprehension that it was
not a civil tort case and was in fact some sort of private prosecution
under the Online Safety Act! It is difficult to imagine how someone
could make such a fundamental mistake while watching court proceedings.

It's also difficult to imagine how someone could think that the
defendant whose case has been described by a judge as a "ridiculous
absurdity" and relies on maintaining that events already proven beyond
reasonable doubt in a criminal mass-murder trial simply didn't happen
would have any chance whatsoever of success.
Post by The Todal
Latest news about the High Court case of Hibbert v Hall: judgment has
been given by Mrs Justice Steyn and Richard Hall's claims that the
explosion at the Ariana Grande cooncert was a hoax are judged to
constitute the statutory tort of harassment. I assume damages will
subsequently be assessed. Worth a read.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Hibbert-v-Hall-Judgment.pdf
Reminds me of the Sandy Hook school shooting, and Alex Jones jeering at
the victims and claiming that the shooting was a hoax, and being found
liable in damages. I wonder whether these people just declare bankruptcy
and continue the same behaviour.
The defendant in this case also appears to disbelieve Sandy Hook,
going by the quote from them at paragraph 69 of the judgement.
Jeff Layman
2024-10-24 09:13:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Of course it wasn't a hoax. What is surprising is that some sociopaths
are still making money from their conspiracy-theory websites (and from
their "books") claiming that it was a hoax.
See https://www.richplanet.net/
and
https://iaindavis.substack.com/p/the-bizarre-trial-of-richard-d-hall
Latest news about the High Court case of Hibbert v Hall: judgment has
been given by Mrs Justice Steyn and Richard Hall's claims that the
explosion at the Ariana Grande cooncert was a hoax are judged to
constitute the statutory tort of harassment. I assume damages will
subsequently be assessed. Worth a read.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Hibbert-v-Hall-Judgment.pdf
Reminds me of the Sandy Hook school shooting, and Alex Jones jeering at
the victims and claiming that the shooting was a hoax, and being found
liable in damages. I wonder whether these people just declare bankruptcy
and continue the same behaviour.
If such a person continued to act as though the event never happened,
and in doing so continued to harm another person mentally (such as a
relative of those killed), could there be a possibility of certifying
them under the Mental Health Act?
--
Jeff
Roger Hayter
2024-10-24 12:59:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by The Todal
Of course it wasn't a hoax. What is surprising is that some sociopaths
are still making money from their conspiracy-theory websites (and from
their "books") claiming that it was a hoax.
See https://www.richplanet.net/
and
https://iaindavis.substack.com/p/the-bizarre-trial-of-richard-d-hall
Latest news about the High Court case of Hibbert v Hall: judgment has
been given by Mrs Justice Steyn and Richard Hall's claims that the
explosion at the Ariana Grande cooncert was a hoax are judged to
constitute the statutory tort of harassment. I assume damages will
subsequently be assessed. Worth a read.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Hibbert-v-Hall-Judgment.pdf
Reminds me of the Sandy Hook school shooting, and Alex Jones jeering at
the victims and claiming that the shooting was a hoax, and being found
liable in damages. I wonder whether these people just declare bankruptcy
and continue the same behaviour.
If such a person continued to act as though the event never happened,
and in doing so continued to harm another person mentally (such as a
relative of those killed), could there be a possibility of certifying
them under the Mental Health Act?
Only in the exceedingly unlikely event of them having a diagnosable mental
illness. Outside of Russia, putting people in mental hospitals because we
don't like their attitude is really not done. OTOH, if what they do amounts to
a crime then the usual graded penalties are available. And damages (as in this
case) for the civil wrong.
--
Roger Hayter
Jeff Layman
2024-10-25 12:36:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by The Todal
Of course it wasn't a hoax. What is surprising is that some sociopaths
are still making money from their conspiracy-theory websites (and from
their "books") claiming that it was a hoax.
See https://www.richplanet.net/
and
https://iaindavis.substack.com/p/the-bizarre-trial-of-richard-d-hall
Latest news about the High Court case of Hibbert v Hall: judgment has
been given by Mrs Justice Steyn and Richard Hall's claims that the
explosion at the Ariana Grande cooncert was a hoax are judged to
constitute the statutory tort of harassment. I assume damages will
subsequently be assessed. Worth a read.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Hibbert-v-Hall-Judgment.pdf
Reminds me of the Sandy Hook school shooting, and Alex Jones jeering at
the victims and claiming that the shooting was a hoax, and being found
liable in damages. I wonder whether these people just declare bankruptcy
and continue the same behaviour.
If such a person continued to act as though the event never happened,
and in doing so continued to harm another person mentally (such as a
relative of those killed), could there be a possibility of certifying
them under the Mental Health Act?
Only in the exceedingly unlikely event of them having a diagnosable mental
illness. Outside of Russia, putting people in mental hospitals because we
don't like their attitude is really not done. OTOH, if what they do amounts to
a crime then the usual graded penalties are available. And damages (as in this
case) for the civil wrong.
The Mental Health Act 2007 removed the requirement for there to be a
"mental illness".

I don't think that my question in any way referred to what is done in
other countries for political ends. I was trying to draw comparisons
between physical harm (such as that caused by paranoid schizophrenics
using knives to attack members of the public for no sane reason), and
mental harm caused to anyone who suffers as a result of a non-physical
attack by someone similarly detached from reality. See also my reply
downthread relating to "protection".
--
Jeff
JNugent
2024-10-24 13:55:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by The Todal
Of course it wasn't a hoax. What is surprising is that some sociopaths
are still making money from their conspiracy-theory websites (and from
their "books") claiming that it was a hoax.
See https://www.richplanet.net/
and
https://iaindavis.substack.com/p/the-bizarre-trial-of-richard-d-hall
Latest news about the High Court case of Hibbert v Hall: judgment has
been given by Mrs Justice Steyn and Richard Hall's claims that the
explosion at the Ariana Grande cooncert was a hoax are judged to
constitute the statutory tort of harassment. I assume damages will
subsequently be assessed.  Worth a read.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Hibbert-v-Hall-Judgment.pdf
Reminds me of the Sandy Hook school shooting, and Alex Jones jeering at
the victims and claiming that the shooting was a hoax, and being found
liable in damages. I wonder whether these people just declare bankruptcy
and continue the same behaviour.
If such a person continued to act as though the event never happened,
and in doing so continued to harm another person mentally (such as a
relative of those killed), could there be a possibility of certifying
them under the Mental Health Act?
That sounds like prosecution or civil legal action for "thought crime".

The way to deal with it could never be to forbid the offending beliefs.

It would, at best, be an injunction against publicising or advertising
that belief.

Then punishment for breaking the injunction would become an available
option, though it would still be morally dodgy.
Roger Hayter
2024-10-24 17:10:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by The Todal
Of course it wasn't a hoax. What is surprising is that some sociopaths
are still making money from their conspiracy-theory websites (and from
their "books") claiming that it was a hoax.
See https://www.richplanet.net/
and
https://iaindavis.substack.com/p/the-bizarre-trial-of-richard-d-hall
Latest news about the High Court case of Hibbert v Hall: judgment has
been given by Mrs Justice Steyn and Richard Hall's claims that the
explosion at the Ariana Grande cooncert was a hoax are judged to
constitute the statutory tort of harassment. I assume damages will
subsequently be assessed. Worth a read.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Hibbert-v-Hall-Judgment.pdf
Reminds me of the Sandy Hook school shooting, and Alex Jones jeering at
the victims and claiming that the shooting was a hoax, and being found
liable in damages. I wonder whether these people just declare bankruptcy
and continue the same behaviour.
If such a person continued to act as though the event never happened,
and in doing so continued to harm another person mentally (such as a
relative of those killed), could there be a possibility of certifying
them under the Mental Health Act?
That sounds like prosecution or civil legal action for "thought crime".
The way to deal with it could never be to forbid the offending beliefs.
It would, at best, be an injunction against publicising or advertising
that belief.
Then punishment for breaking the injunction would become an available
option, though it would still be morally dodgy.
It is worth noting that in the case we are discussing the defendant didn't
merely express an opinion, he harassed and spied on the claimants. He was
apparently seeking to prove either that they were not disabled or that there
disability preceded the bombing. And that they were lying about their
experiences.
--
Roger Hayter
JNugent
2024-10-25 00:58:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by JNugent
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by The Todal
Of course it wasn't a hoax. What is surprising is that some sociopaths
are still making money from their conspiracy-theory websites (and from
their "books") claiming that it was a hoax.
See https://www.richplanet.net/
and
https://iaindavis.substack.com/p/the-bizarre-trial-of-richard-d-hall
Latest news about the High Court case of Hibbert v Hall: judgment has
been given by Mrs Justice Steyn and Richard Hall's claims that the
explosion at the Ariana Grande cooncert was a hoax are judged to
constitute the statutory tort of harassment. I assume damages will
subsequently be assessed. Worth a read.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Hibbert-v-Hall-Judgment.pdf
Reminds me of the Sandy Hook school shooting, and Alex Jones jeering at
the victims and claiming that the shooting was a hoax, and being found
liable in damages. I wonder whether these people just declare bankruptcy
and continue the same behaviour.
If such a person continued to act as though the event never happened,
and in doing so continued to harm another person mentally (such as a
relative of those killed), could there be a possibility of certifying
them under the Mental Health Act?
That sounds like prosecution or civil legal action for "thought crime".
The way to deal with it could never be to forbid the offending beliefs.
It would, at best, be an injunction against publicising or advertising
that belief.
Then punishment for breaking the injunction would become an available
option, though it would still be morally dodgy.
It is worth noting that in the case we are discussing the defendant didn't
merely express an opinion, he harassed and spied on the claimants. He was
apparently seeking to prove either that they were not disabled or that there
disability preceded the bombing. And that they were lying about their
experiences.
I was responding to what the PP had actually written, which was a
generalised reference to people acting as though an event had never
happened. As far as I can see, that was not case-specific and neither
was my response.
Jeff Layman
2024-10-25 12:40:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by JNugent
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by The Todal
Of course it wasn't a hoax. What is surprising is that some sociopaths
are still making money from their conspiracy-theory websites (and from
their "books") claiming that it was a hoax.
See https://www.richplanet.net/
and
https://iaindavis.substack.com/p/the-bizarre-trial-of-richard-d-hall
Latest news about the High Court case of Hibbert v Hall: judgment has
been given by Mrs Justice Steyn and Richard Hall's claims that the
explosion at the Ariana Grande cooncert was a hoax are judged to
constitute the statutory tort of harassment. I assume damages will
subsequently be assessed. Worth a read.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Hibbert-v-Hall-Judgment.pdf
Reminds me of the Sandy Hook school shooting, and Alex Jones jeering at
the victims and claiming that the shooting was a hoax, and being found
liable in damages. I wonder whether these people just declare bankruptcy
and continue the same behaviour.
If such a person continued to act as though the event never happened,
and in doing so continued to harm another person mentally (such as a
relative of those killed), could there be a possibility of certifying
them under the Mental Health Act?
That sounds like prosecution or civil legal action for "thought crime".
The way to deal with it could never be to forbid the offending beliefs.
It would, at best, be an injunction against publicising or advertising
that belief.
Then punishment for breaking the injunction would become an available
option, though it would still be morally dodgy.
It is worth noting that in the case we are discussing the defendant didn't
merely express an opinion, he harassed and spied on the claimants. He was
apparently seeking to prove either that they were not disabled or that there
disability preceded the bombing. And that they were lying about their
experiences.
I was responding to what the PP had actually written, which was a
generalised reference to people acting as though an event had never
happened. As far as I can see, that was not case-specific and neither
was my response.
Well, the subject was specific, and the paragraph to which I was
responding referred to a specific event and person (Alex Jones). Even
so, there was an element of generalisation in the question I was trying
to raise.

The Mental Health Act in s2 uses very specific and quite interesting
wording regarding the assessment of a patient:
"he ought to be so detained in the interests of his own health or safety
or with a view to the protection of other persons."

Why just "protection" and not "protection from harm"? As far as I can
tell "protection" is not defined, and it is only much later (s41 Power
of higher courts to restrict discharge from hospital) that the word
"harm" also appears:
"Where a hospital order is made in respect of an offender by the Crown
Court, and it appears to the court, having regard to the nature of the
offence, the antecedents of the offender and the risk of his committing
further offences if set at large, that it is necessary for the
protection of the public from serious harm so to do, the court may..."

So what do we understand by "protection"? Why should we not apply it to
mental harm as well as physical harm?
--
Jeff
Max Demian
2024-10-25 16:49:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jeff Layman
The Mental Health Act in s2 uses very specific and quite interesting
"he ought to be so detained in the interests of his own health or safety
or with a view to the protection of other persons."
Why just "protection" and not "protection from harm"? As far as I can
tell "protection" is not defined, and it is only much later (s41 Power
of higher courts to restrict discharge from hospital) that the word
"Where a hospital order is made in respect of an offender by the Crown
Court, and it appears to the court, having regard to the nature of the
offence, the antecedents of the offender and the risk of his committing
further offences if set at large, that it is necessary for the
protection of the public from serious harm so to do, the court may..."
So what do we understand by "protection"? Why should we not apply it to
mental harm as well as physical harm?
Why not financial harm, or moral harm?
--
Max Demian
JNugent
2024-10-26 15:41:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Max Demian
Post by Jeff Layman
The Mental Health Act in s2 uses very specific and quite interesting
"he ought to be so detained in the interests of his own health or
safety or with a view to the protection of other persons."
Why just "protection" and not "protection from harm"? As far as I can
tell "protection" is not defined, and it is only much later (s41 Power
of higher courts to restrict discharge from hospital) that the word
"Where a hospital order is made in respect of an offender by the Crown
Court, and it appears to the court, having regard to the nature of the
offence, the antecedents of the offender and the risk of his
committing further offences if set at large, that it is necessary for
the protection of the public from serious harm so to do, the court
may..."
So what do we understand by "protection"? Why should we not apply it
to mental harm as well as physical harm?
Why not financial harm, or moral harm?
In fact, it is possible to be protected from anything other than harm
(however reasonably defined)?

On second thoughts, I suppose there is the possibility of protection
from offence... so protection from harm or undue offence?
Jeff Layman
2024-10-28 22:28:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Max Demian
Post by Jeff Layman
The Mental Health Act in s2 uses very specific and quite interesting
"he ought to be so detained in the interests of his own health or
safety or with a view to the protection of other persons."
Why just "protection" and not "protection from harm"? As far as I can
tell "protection" is not defined, and it is only much later (s41 Power
of higher courts to restrict discharge from hospital) that the word
"Where a hospital order is made in respect of an offender by the Crown
Court, and it appears to the court, having regard to the nature of the
offence, the antecedents of the offender and the risk of his
committing further offences if set at large, that it is necessary for
the protection of the public from serious harm so to do, the court
may..."
So what do we understand by "protection"? Why should we not apply it
to mental harm as well as physical harm?
Why not financial harm, or moral harm?
In fact, it is possible to be protected from anything other than harm
(however reasonably defined)?
Is that meant to be a statement or a question? Did you intend to write
"is it possible..."?
Post by JNugent
On second thoughts, I suppose there is the possibility of protection
from offence... so protection from harm or undue offence?
It would seem to be a possibility under The Mental Health Act.

The Todal quoted from the judgement in a reply above:
"the defendant is so blinkered in his belief that the false story he has
spun is true, and so unreflective and insensitive to the level of
distress likely to be caused by his persistent attempts to discredit
what those who have suffered so tragically in the Attack say about it,
that he did not know his conduct amounted to harassment."

I wonder where the border is between accepted mental illness and being
blinkered in belief that a self-generated false story is true?
--
Jeff
Pancho
2024-10-25 10:35:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Of course it wasn't a hoax. What is surprising is that some sociopaths
are still making money from their conspiracy-theory websites (and from
their "books") claiming that it was a hoax.
See https://www.richplanet.net/
and
https://iaindavis.substack.com/p/the-bizarre-trial-of-richard-d-hall
Latest news about the High Court case of Hibbert v Hall: judgment has
been given by Mrs Justice Steyn and Richard Hall's claims that the
explosion at the Ariana Grande cooncert was a hoax are judged to
constitute the statutory tort of harassment. I assume damages will
subsequently be assessed.  Worth a read.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Hibbert-v-Hall-Judgment.pdf
Reminds me of the Sandy Hook school shooting, and Alex Jones jeering at
the victims and claiming that the shooting was a hoax, and being found
liable in damages. I wonder whether these people just declare bankruptcy
and continue the same behaviour.
It is hard to see what the harassment was, I think it might be
approaching/watching the victims, in person. i.e. not about posting
falsehoods on the internet. It looks to me as if the MSM/establishment
are muddying the waters in order to normalise the idea of punishing
previously protected free speech. Another step by the establishment to
regain control of propaganda from social media.

While we would all like it if people didn't post unpleasant falsehoods,
I think it is a mistake to make it a general crime. Who is to judge what
is true, false or just poorly understood? Protecting hurt feelings is
not worth limiting our right to free speech. Such laws will inevitably
be perverted and used against whistleblowers, people telling
uncomfortable truths. e.g. Saying I think politicians might be corrupt
will become a crime unless you can point to iron cast evidence of
corruption.

We really do need to stand up for freedom of speech, even if that means
we have to suffer trolls.
The Todal
2024-10-27 18:11:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pancho
Post by The Todal
Of course it wasn't a hoax. What is surprising is that some sociopaths
are still making money from their conspiracy-theory websites (and from
their "books") claiming that it was a hoax.
See https://www.richplanet.net/
and
https://iaindavis.substack.com/p/the-bizarre-trial-of-richard-d-hall
Latest news about the High Court case of Hibbert v Hall: judgment has
been given by Mrs Justice Steyn and Richard Hall's claims that the
explosion at the Ariana Grande cooncert was a hoax are judged to
constitute the statutory tort of harassment. I assume damages will
subsequently be assessed.  Worth a read.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Hibbert-v-Hall-
Judgment.pdf
Reminds me of the Sandy Hook school shooting, and Alex Jones jeering
at the victims and claiming that the shooting was a hoax, and being
found liable in damages. I wonder whether these people just declare
bankruptcy and continue the same behaviour.
It is hard to see what the harassment was,
If you find it hard, I suggest you read the judgment carefully. He was
repeatedly accusing the two victims of the bomb attack of telling lies.
And his allegations were of course widely distributed on the internet
and were believed by many gullible people.

quote

A reasonable person with such information would realise that repeated
attempts to undermine and discredit the account given by a victim of
such a tragedy, which is inevitably now a pivotal fact of their lives,
by making highly defamatory statements and casting out baseless and
deeply offensive speculation with abandon and levity, for commercial
gain, would cause real distress.

The false allegations that Mr Hall made were grave, with the consequence
that a very large number of people have been misinformed, and led to
believe that the Attack was a hoax, that the claimants were not injured
in the Attack, and that Mr Hibbert has (along with many others)
repeatedly and publicly lied to the public for monetary gain. Mr Hall
has published and continues to publish his false allegations despite the
Attack having been the subject of thorough investigations, a criminal
trial, and authoritative reports which any reasonable person would
recognise command respect. Mr Hall’s publications are not only false,
but they also lack any semblance of balance.



I think it might be
Post by Pancho
approaching/watching the victims, in person. i.e. not about posting
falsehoods on the internet. It looks to me as if the MSM/establishment
are muddying the waters in order to normalise the idea of punishing
previously protected free speech. Another step by the establishment to
regain control of propaganda from social media.
The establishment? Do you mean the unfortunate victims of the bombing
who have to live the rest of their lives with pain and disability? Are
they not entitled to the protection of our courts?
Post by Pancho
While we would all like it if people didn't post unpleasant falsehoods,
I think it is a mistake to make it a general crime. Who is to judge what
is true, false or just poorly understood? Protecting hurt feelings is
not worth limiting our right to free speech. Such laws will inevitably
be perverted and used against whistleblowers, people telling
uncomfortable truths. e.g. Saying I think politicians might be corrupt
will become a crime unless you can point to iron cast evidence of
corruption.
We really do need to stand up for freedom of speech, even if that means
we have to suffer trolls.
If you think Mr Hall's freedom of speech is worth standing up for, then
I hope you are in a tiny minority and I think you would change your mind
if it was you whom he accused of lying to the nation and attention-seeking.
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