Domestic solar panels

Post by Les. Hayward
Seeing that these things are appearing on houses like some sort of
growth, I was wondering what the score was should the roof need
re-tiling for any reason - and who gets the bill if the roof starts to
leak after installation?

Well presumably you'll need them fitted "professionally". Which is code
word for cowboys with certificates.

Make sure your insurance know too.

Les. Hayward

2024-11-15 18:00:36 UTC

Well presumably you'll need them fitted "professionally". Which is code
word for cowboys with certificates.
Make sure your insurance know too.

Oh - no personal interest, just wondered. I am certainly not defacing
the roof of my 17th century pad with those things - whatever the alleged
savings...

Sam Plusnet

2024-11-16 17:41:31 UTC

Well presumably you'll need them fitted "professionally". Which is code
word for cowboys with certificates.
Make sure your insurance know too.

Oh - no personal interest, just wondered. I am certainly not defacing
the roof of my 17th century pad with those things - whatever the alleged
savings...

A nearby road has two houses which face each other across the road.
They each have lots of solar panels on their roofs - the panels face
each other.
Conventional pitches roofs, with no special features which would prevent
sensible installation.

--
Sam Plusnet

Roger Hayter

2024-11-16 17:55:22 UTC

Well presumably you'll need them fitted "professionally". Which is code
word for cowboys with certificates.
Make sure your insurance know too.

Oh - no personal interest, just wondered. I am certainly not defacing
the roof of my 17th century pad with those things - whatever the alleged
savings...

Are you sure that neither has difficult access to the back due to lack of
garden access or an extension? It is more expensive and difficult working on
the back from scaffolding at the front.

--
Roger Hayter

Theo

2024-11-16 18:02:36 UTC

Well presumably you'll need them fitted "professionally". Which is code
word for cowboys with certificates.
Make sure your insurance know too.

Oh - no personal interest, just wondered. I am certainly not defacing
the roof of my 17th century pad with those things - whatever the alleged
savings...

Which way do they face? It's common to have panels on both sides when
oriented east-west - the east gets sun in the morning, the west in the
evening. Even vertical panels or on the north side have value at certain
times of the year.

Not 'optimal', but panels are so cheap now that you can put them on 'non
optimal' surfaces and still get a return. It just depends on your costs to
get them there.

Theo

Sam Plusnet

2024-11-17 18:16:06 UTC

Post by Theo

Well presumably you'll need them fitted "professionally". Which is code
word for cowboys with certificates.
Make sure your insurance know too.

Oh - no personal interest, just wondered. I am certainly not defacing
the roof of my 17th century pad with those things - whatever the alleged
savings...

Which way do they face? It's common to have panels on both sides when
oriented east-west - the east gets sun in the morning, the west in the
evening. Even vertical panels or on the north side have value at certain
times of the year.
Not 'optimal', but panels are so cheap now that you can put them on 'non
optimal' surfaces and still get a return. It just depends on your costs to
get them there.

The road runs roughly NNE to SSW or maybe NE to SW (probably closer to
the latter I think).

The houses are all "Council Houses", but I don't know which are now
owner-occupied.

--
Sam Plusnet

Peter Johnson

2024-11-18 15:35:34 UTC

Post by Sam Plusnet
The houses are all "Council Houses", but I don't know which are now
owner-occupied.

It used to be that they were the ones with new doors.

Theo

2024-11-18 15:56:16 UTC

Post by Theo

Post by Sam Plusnet
A nearby road has two houses which face each other across the road.
They each have lots of solar panels on their roofs - the panels face
each other.
Conventional pitches roofs, with no special features which would prevent
sensible installation.

Which way do they face? It's common to have panels on both sides when
oriented east-west - the east gets sun in the morning, the west in the
evening. Even vertical panels or on the north side have value at certain
times of the year.
Not 'optimal', but panels are so cheap now that you can put them on 'non
optimal' surfaces and still get a return. It just depends on your costs to
get them there.

The road runs roughly NNE to SSW or maybe NE to SW (probably closer to
the latter I think).

Looking at the numbers for Hull, a SE pitch (225 degrees) would get you 882
kWh per year per kW of installation. A NE pitch (45 degrees) would get you
541 kWh per year, while a due-south pitch (180 degrees) is optimal at 959
kWh:

https://globalsolaratlas.info/detail?s=53.762386,-0.330121&m=site&c=53.762386,-0.330121,11&pv=small,225,38,1
https://globalsolaratlas.info/detail?s=53.762386,-0.330121&m=site&c=53.762386,-0.330121,11&pv=small,45,38,1
https://globalsolaratlas.info/detail?s=53.762386,-0.330121&m=site&c=53.762386,-0.330121,11&pv=small,180,38,1

Obviously it's better to get 959 not 541, but you can still get a return if
NE facing - just less of one. It can make sense if you keep your
installation costs under control.

Post by Sam Plusnet
The houses are all "Council Houses", but I don't know which are now
owner-occupied.

Often the recently-council ones have matching windows.

Theo

Roland Perry

2024-11-15 18:09:52 UTC

If you are very very lucky there might be a warranty from a third party
insurer, but watch out for the exclusion clauses. The original installer
is likely to have ceased trading. I suppose unless they are part of a
new build.

Genuine question: Would NHBC cover solar panels - I know they do cover
normal tiling.

--
Roland Perry

Roger Hayter

2024-11-15 18:12:01 UTC

Apparently in America, where they have flimsier roofing as well as fewer
regulations, damaged and leaking roofs are very common after solar panel
installation. As to your first question, I think the lifespan of a roof is
expected to be much longer than that of solar panels, so it is only a problem
if your roof is already looking dubious before the panels are fitted. The
expected lifetime of solar panels is not something the suppliers generally
draw attention to, but I doubt it is that long.

--
Roger Hayter

Theo

2024-11-15 21:23:02 UTC

Post by Roger Hayter

Apparently in America, where they have flimsier roofing as well as fewer
regulations, damaged and leaking roofs are very common after solar panel
installation. As to your first question, I think the lifespan of a roof
is expected to be much longer than that of solar panels, so it is only a
problem if your roof is already looking dubious before the panels are
fitted. The expected lifetime of solar panels is not something the
suppliers generally draw attention to, but I doubt it is that long.

The warranty on the panels is 25-30 years. eg:

"For Modules, only applicable to the following
mono-crystalline Module types:
JKMxxxN-54HL4,
JKMxxxN-54HL4-V,
JKMxxxN-54HL4-B,
JKMxxxN-54HL4-B-V
(i) 1% in the first year; (ii) 0.4% each year
thereafter until that date which is thirty (30) years
following the Warranty Start Date, at which time
the Actual Power Output shall be not less than
87.4% of the Nominal Power Output."
https://midsummerwholesale.co.uk/buy/jinko/jinko-54c-435w-n-ab

The rails they're attached to are usually made of aluminium so they won't
rust/etc - they should last longer than the panels. When the panels are due
for replacing, or a newer type comes out that you want to upgrade to, just
swap them over.

So it mostly comes down to the fixings that attach the rails to the roof,
and the design of the system in tends of weight, wind loads, etc.

The MCS have a procedure for the design of roof-mounted systems which the
installer needs to follow.
https://mcscertified.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/MIS-3002_Solar-PV-Systems-V5.0-Final-for-publication.pdf
https://mcscertified.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/MCS-012-The-Solar-Mounting-Standard-Issue-3.0.pdf

The manufacturer of the fixings has a certain
approved method for attaching their fixings, which is tested and certified
by the MCS. eg
https://midsummerwholesale.co.uk/pdfs/mcs-ik0197-issue-10-renusol-europe-gmbh-20.08.2024.pdf

The same goes for panels which are integrated into the roof, where there are
no tiles underneath. There changing the panels is going to be more
complicated.

MCS installers are supposed to have their work regularly inspected, but how
much they actually are is unclear.

Theo

TTman

2024-11-15 22:24:07 UTC

Post by Theo

Post by Roger Hayter

Apparently in America, where they have flimsier roofing as well as fewer
regulations, damaged and leaking roofs are very common after solar panel
installation. As to your first question, I think the lifespan of a roof
is expected to be much longer than that of solar panels, so it is only a
problem if your roof is already looking dubious before the panels are
fitted. The expected lifetime of solar panels is not something the
suppliers generally draw attention to, but I doubt it is that long.

"For Modules, only applicable to the following
JKMxxxN-54HL4,
JKMxxxN-54HL4-V,
JKMxxxN-54HL4-B,
JKMxxxN-54HL4-B-V
(i) 1% in the first year; (ii) 0.4% each year
thereafter until that date which is thirty (30) years
following the Warranty Start Date, at which time
the Actual Power Output shall be not less than
87.4% of the Nominal Power Output."
https://midsummerwholesale.co.uk/buy/jinko/jinko-54c-435w-n-ab
The rails they're attached to are usually made of aluminium so they won't
rust/etc - they should last longer than the panels. When the panels are due
for replacing, or a newer type comes out that you want to upgrade to, just
swap them over.

Unlikely, solar panels are increasing in efficiency, output per square
cm and will no dobut increase in size. Panels today are much larger than
10 years ago and are close to double the output then. Panels now are in
the 400-450 kWp ( generally)

Post by Theo
So it mostly comes down to the fixings that attach the rails to the roof,
and the design of the system in tends of weight, wind loads, etc.

Most fixing brackets need to have a tile 'relieved' on the underside
where the bracket sits such that the tile, when refitted, sits flush (
as it was before )

Post by Theo
The MCS have a procedure for the design of roof-mounted systems which the
installer needs to follow.
https://mcscertified.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/MIS-3002_Solar-PV-Systems-V5.0-Final-for-publication.pdf
https://mcscertified.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/MCS-012-The-Solar-Mounting-Standard-Issue-3.0.pdf
The manufacturer of the fixings has a certain
approved method for attaching their fixings, which is tested and certified
by the MCS. eg
https://midsummerwholesale.co.uk/pdfs/mcs-ik0197-issue-10-renusol-europe-gmbh-20.08.2024.pdf
The same goes for panels which are integrated into the roof, where there are
no tiles underneath. There changing the panels is going to be more
complicated.
MCS installers are supposed to have their work regularly inspected, but how
much they actually are is unclear.
Theo

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Theo

2024-11-16 08:17:12 UTC

Post by TTman

Post by Theo
The rails they're attached to are usually made of aluminium so they won't
rust/etc - they should last longer than the panels. When the panels are due
for replacing, or a newer type comes out that you want to upgrade to, just
swap them over.

While silicon solar cells are approaching their theoretical efficiency of
about 27%, multijunction cells are under development which soak up more of
the spectrum including more IR and UV. They have a limit of about 43%
efficiency. So there is scope to upgrade your panels in 5-10 years assuming
that tech becomes available. There may also be opportunities to reduce
efficiency dropoff at higher temperatures.

Manufacturers make panels to a variety of sizes so there is the potential to
retrofit to existing rails - or reconfigure the rails to take different
sized panels.

Post by TTman

Post by Theo
So it mostly comes down to the fixings that attach the rails to the roof,
and the design of the system in tends of weight, wind loads, etc.

Most fixing brackets need to have a tile 'relieved' on the underside
where the bracket sits such that the tile, when refitted, sits flush (
as it was before )

Depends on the roofing - maybe with thicker tile, but not with slate. You
do need to penetrate the roof for fixings and cabling, which is why sealing
is part of the fixing system. It's not a lot different from the way slates
are currently nailed on. On flat roofs you can just rest a weighted
'bucket' on top with no penetrations.

Theo

Roland Perry

2024-11-16 08:07:53 UTC

Post by Theo
The warranty on the panels

What about the warranty on the roof fixing?

Post by Theo
"For Modules, only applicable to the following
JKMxxxN-54HL4,
JKMxxxN-54HL4-V,
JKMxxxN-54HL4-B,
JKMxxxN-54HL4-B-V
(i) 1% in the first year; (ii) 0.4% each year
thereafter until that date which is thirty (30) years
following the Warranty Start Date, at which time
the Actual Power Output shall be not less than
87.4% of the Nominal Power Output."
https://midsummerwholesale.co.uk/buy/jinko/jinko-54c-435w-n-ab

Have they posted a bond with someone to fund this for the whole 30yrs?

--
Roland Perry

Jethro_uk

2024-11-16 10:19:13 UTC

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Theo
The warranty on the panels

What about the warranty on the roof fixing?

Post by Theo
"For Modules, only applicable to the following mono-crystalline Module
JKMxxxN-54HL4,
JKMxxxN-54HL4-V,
JKMxxxN-54HL4-B,
JKMxxxN-54HL4-B-V (i) 1% in the first year; (ii) 0.4% each year
thereafter until that date which is thirty (30) years following the
Warranty Start Date, at which time the Actual Power Output shall be not
less than 87.4% of the Nominal Power Output."
https://midsummerwholesale.co.uk/buy/jinko/jinko-54c-435w-n-ab

Have they posted a bond with someone to fund this for the whole 30yrs?

This is one of those questions I feel strangely confident about answering
in the negative despite doing sweet FA research.

Recently there have been stories of these "freebie" insulation and boiler
replacement scamsters who do the work and then evaporate leaving their
liabilities in the wind. OK in most cases but there are houses they have
ruined with damp due to bodge jobs. They sometimes advertise on my local
FB group. The clue is they are all using variants of bazza/mazza/jonny/
***@gmail as their "business" contact.

Spike

2024-11-16 12:26:41 UTC

Jethro_uk <***@hotmailbin.com> wrote:

[…]

Post by Jethro_uk
Recently there have been stories of these "freebie" insulation and boiler
replacement scamsters who do the work and then evaporate leaving their
liabilities in the wind. OK in most cases but there are houses they have
ruined with damp due to bodge jobs. They sometimes advertise on my local
FB group. The clue is they are all using variants of bazza/mazza/jonny/

Recently, I stopped behind a signwritten van at a set of traffic lights.
The firm it belonged to was called Dampremovers, and apparently their modus
was the removal of cavity-wall insulation. It didn’t look like a cowboy
setup, so there seems to be sufficient work available of this kind to keep
a business going.

--
Spike

Theo

2024-11-16 13:11:39 UTC

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Theo
The warranty on the panels

What about the warranty on the roof fixing?

That depends on the fixing, and the type of roof you have.

Post by Roland Perry

Have they posted a bond with someone to fund this for the whole 30yrs?

This is one of those questions I feel strangely confident about answering
in the negative despite doing sweet FA research.

Since this is the Chinese manufacturer of solar panels, I'm not sure they're
in the business of posting bonds. If they continue trading you can sue to
hold them to the terms of the warranty.

They have a billion dollar market cap on the NYSE, so I think it's fair to
say they won't be gone overnight.

Also, since the warranty is per-year you can monitor performance constantly
- ie you don't need to wait 30 years to claim that they didn't last.

Those are the bodgit'n'run cowboys. They've moved from double glazing or
tarmac drives. That's why it pays to pay attention to the fixings, even if
somebody else is doing them.

Theo

TTman

2024-11-15 22:19:28 UTC