I’ve not repaid a penny of my £70,000 student loan since leaving Britain – and never will

[Jethro_uk]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/jobs/schools-universities/not-coming-
back-britain-70000-expat-dodge-student-loans/

Again, a purely legal question (which was avoided in the article despite
the volume of words) about what mechanisms exists internationally to
allow a debt raised in one country to be recovered from a resident (and
possibly citizen) of another country ?

Even in cases where the debtor at some point in the future returns to the
UK, can they be locked up or prevented from leaving until the lifelong
debt is repaid ?

[Jon Ribbens]

Post by Jethro_uk
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/jobs/schools-universities/not-coming-
back-britain-70000-expat-dodge-student-loans/
Again, a purely legal question (which was avoided in the article despite
the volume of words) about what mechanisms exists internationally to
allow a debt raised in one country to be recovered from a resident (and
possibly citizen) of another country ?

It's easy within the EU, you get a European Payment Order in the country
they're in. I believe there are also agreements with some other countries
to enforce civil debts remotely.

Post by Jethro_uk
Even in cases where the debtor at some point in the future returns to the
UK, can they be locked up or prevented from leaving until the lifelong
debt is repaid ?

No, of course not. We abolished debtors prisons.

[Jethro_uk]

Post by Jon Ribbens

Post by Jethro_uk
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/jobs/schools-universities/not-coming-
back-britain-70000-expat-dodge-student-loans/
Again, a purely legal question (which was avoided in the article
despite the volume of words) about what mechanisms exists
internationally to allow a debt raised in one country to be recovered
from a resident (and possibly citizen) of another country ?

It's easy within the EU, you get a European Payment Order in the country
they're in. I believe there are also agreements with some other
countries to enforce civil debts remotely.

Interesting. Especially since we left the EU. Clearly Nigel will have to
do some more work.

Post by Jon Ribbens

Post by Jethro_uk
Even in cases where the debtor at some point in the future returns to
the UK, can they be locked up or prevented from leaving until the
lifelong debt is repaid ?

No, of course not. We abolished debtors prisons.

So to narrow an example, someone who moves abroad to a non-co-operating
country will still be free to come and go from the UK without let or
hinderance ?

(I should have stated in my original question the person in question has
no assets in the UK after leaving).

[Jon Ribbens]

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by Jon Ribbens

Post by Jethro_uk
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/jobs/schools-universities/not-coming-
back-britain-70000-expat-dodge-student-loans/
Again, a purely legal question (which was avoided in the article
despite the volume of words) about what mechanisms exists
internationally to allow a debt raised in one country to be recovered
from a resident (and possibly citizen) of another country ?

It's easy within the EU, you get a European Payment Order in the country
they're in. I believe there are also agreements with some other
countries to enforce civil debts remotely.

Interesting. Especially since we left the EU. Clearly Nigel will have to
do some more work.

Post by Jon Ribbens

Post by Jethro_uk
Even in cases where the debtor at some point in the future returns to
the UK, can they be locked up or prevented from leaving until the
lifelong debt is repaid ?

No, of course not. We abolished debtors prisons.

So to narrow an example, someone who moves abroad to a non-co-operating
country will still be free to come and go from the UK without let or
hinderance ?
(I should have stated in my original question the person in question has
no assets in the UK after leaving).

Suppose you did somehow manage to grab hold of them and drag them before
a court. What do you think the court would do? As you say, they have no
assets in the UK, and presumably they have no income in the UK either.
The court is going to give them a stern talking to, and then they'll
leave the country again.

[Roger Hayter]

Post by Jon Ribbens

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by Jon Ribbens

Post by Jethro_uk
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/jobs/schools-universities/not-coming-
back-britain-70000-expat-dodge-student-loans/
Again, a purely legal question (which was avoided in the article
despite the volume of words) about what mechanisms exists
internationally to allow a debt raised in one country to be recovered
from a resident (and possibly citizen) of another country ?

It's easy within the EU, you get a European Payment Order in the country
they're in. I believe there are also agreements with some other
countries to enforce civil debts remotely.

Interesting. Especially since we left the EU. Clearly Nigel will have to
do some more work.

Post by Jon Ribbens

Post by Jethro_uk
Even in cases where the debtor at some point in the future returns to
the UK, can they be locked up or prevented from leaving until the
lifelong debt is repaid ?

No, of course not. We abolished debtors prisons.

So to narrow an example, someone who moves abroad to a non-co-operating
country will still be free to come and go from the UK without let or
hinderance ?
(I should have stated in my original question the person in question has
no assets in the UK after leaving).

Suppose you did somehow manage to grab hold of them and drag them before
a court. What do you think the court would do? As you say, they have no
assets in the UK, and presumably they have no income in the UK either.
The court is going to give them a stern talking to, and then they'll
leave the country again.

I do wonder if people who go abroad actually owe any payments on their student
loans - or have they been set up as a graduate tax only on those who earn
here? Hence if you live abroad, or like a recent Telegraph owner, are
non-domiciled here for tax, maybe you don't owe the Government anything until
this status changes?

[Theo]

Post by Roger Hayter
I do wonder if people who go abroad actually owe any payments on their student
loans - or have they been set up as a graduate tax only on those who earn
here? Hence if you live abroad, or like a recent Telegraph owner, are
non-domiciled here for tax, maybe you don't owe the Government anything until
this status changes?

Student loans are set up as loans rather than a graduate tax precisely to
avoid people incurring the 'debt' and then working abroad out of the reach
of UK income tax. If you move abroad you have to inform the SLC and
continue paying unless you can evidence your income is below the repayment
threshold. If you don't do that you can incur 'arrears' which add to your
balance (up to £300pm)

If you go entirely beyond the reach of UK law and stay there forever then
there's nothing they can do about enforcement, even if you are theoretically
obliged to repay. But many people who go abroad will come back at some
point, and then the balance will be higher if they hadn't followed the rules.

Theo

[miked]

Post by Theo

Post by Roger Hayter
I do wonder if people who go abroad actually owe any payments on their student
loans - or have they been set up as a graduate tax only on those who earn
here? Hence if you live abroad, or like a recent Telegraph owner, are
non-domiciled here for tax, maybe you don't owe the Government anything until
this status changes?

Student loans are set up as loans rather than a graduate tax precisely to
avoid people incurring the 'debt' and then working abroad out of the reach
of UK income tax. If you move abroad you have to inform the SLC and
continue paying unless you can evidence your income is below the repayment
threshold. If you don't do that you can incur 'arrears' which add to your
balance (up to £300pm)
If you go entirely beyond the reach of UK law and stay there forever then
there's nothing they can do about enforcement, even if you are
theoretically
obliged to repay. But many people who go abroad will come back at some
point, and then the balance will be higher if they hadn't followed the rules.
Theo

But cant the courts still enforce payment if you visit the UK while
living abroad? Could they not seize their pasport when they return to
the uk and not return it till they make some upfront payment by bank
transfer from their country of residence and agree to a binding
repayment plan. Even if they never return to the uk, surely owing 70,000
will affect their credit rating and ability to borrow money like apply
for a morgage or credit card wherever they live?

Mike

[Jethro_uk]

Post by miked

Post by Theo

Post by Roger Hayter
I do wonder if people who go abroad actually owe any payments on their
student loans - or have they been set up as a graduate tax only on
those who earn here? Hence if you live abroad, or like a recent
Telegraph owner, are non-domiciled here for tax, maybe you don't owe
the Government anything until this status changes?

Student loans are set up as loans rather than a graduate tax precisely
to avoid people incurring the 'debt' and then working abroad out of the
reach of UK income tax. If you move abroad you have to inform the SLC
and continue paying unless you can evidence your income is below the
repayment threshold. If you don't do that you can incur 'arrears' which
add to your balance (up to £300pm)
If you go entirely beyond the reach of UK law and stay there forever
then there's nothing they can do about enforcement, even if you are
theoretically obliged to repay. But many people who go abroad will
come back at some point, and then the balance will be higher if they
hadn't followed the rules.
Theo

But cant the courts still enforce payment if you visit the UK while
living abroad? Could they not seize their pasport when they return to
the uk and not return it till they make some upfront payment by bank
transfer from their country of residence and agree to a binding
repayment plan. Even if they never return to the uk, surely owing 70,000
will affect their credit rating and ability to borrow money like apply
for a morgage or credit card wherever they live?

Do credit scores know about foreign debts ?

[Jon Ribbens]

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by miked

Post by Theo

Post by Roger Hayter
I do wonder if people who go abroad actually owe any payments on their
student loans - or have they been set up as a graduate tax only on
those who earn here? Hence if you live abroad, or like a recent
Telegraph owner, are non-domiciled here for tax, maybe you don't owe
the Government anything until this status changes?

Student loans are set up as loans rather than a graduate tax precisely
to avoid people incurring the 'debt' and then working abroad out of the
reach of UK income tax. If you move abroad you have to inform the SLC
and continue paying unless you can evidence your income is below the
repayment threshold. If you don't do that you can incur 'arrears' which
add to your balance (up to £300pm)
If you go entirely beyond the reach of UK law and stay there forever
then there's nothing they can do about enforcement, even if you are
theoretically obliged to repay. But many people who go abroad will
come back at some point, and then the balance will be higher if they
hadn't followed the rules.
Theo

But cant the courts still enforce payment if you visit the UK while
living abroad? Could they not seize their pasport when they return to
the uk and not return it till they make some upfront payment by bank
transfer from their country of residence and agree to a binding
repayment plan. Even if they never return to the uk, surely owing 70,000
will affect their credit rating and ability to borrow money like apply
for a morgage or credit card wherever they live?

Do credit scores know about foreign debts ?

No, I don't think so. Which sucks for people with good credit ratings
abroad who move here and discover they can't a tenancy or any credit.

[Brian]

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by miked

Post by Theo

Post by Roger Hayter
I do wonder if people who go abroad actually owe any payments on their
student loans - or have they been set up as a graduate tax only on
those who earn here? Hence if you live abroad, or like a recent
Telegraph owner, are non-domiciled here for tax, maybe you don't owe
the Government anything until this status changes?

Student loans are set up as loans rather than a graduate tax precisely
to avoid people incurring the 'debt' and then working abroad out of the
reach of UK income tax. If you move abroad you have to inform the SLC
and continue paying unless you can evidence your income is below the
repayment threshold. If you don't do that you can incur 'arrears' which
add to your balance (up to £300pm)
If you go entirely beyond the reach of UK law and stay there forever
then there's nothing they can do about enforcement, even if you are
theoretically obliged to repay. But many people who go abroad will
come back at some point, and then the balance will be higher if they
hadn't followed the rules.
Theo

But cant the courts still enforce payment if you visit the UK while
living abroad? Could they not seize their pasport when they return to
the uk and not return it till they make some upfront payment by bank
transfer from their country of residence and agree to a binding
repayment plan. Even if they never return to the uk, surely owing 70,000
will affect their credit rating and ability to borrow money like apply
for a morgage or credit card wherever they live?

Do credit scores know about foreign debts ?

It appears that student loans don't appear on your credit file (at least
according to the Gov. website.) Of course, it is possible that, when you
apply for loans, mortgages, etc you are asked if you have a Student Loan.

Without suggesting anyone should do so, I would be surprised if (say)
someone declaring they were debt free when applying for a loan etc in,
perhaps, France, while having a debt in the UK would be running a risk
of being found out. I'm not convinced the banks etc exchange details at
that level. After all, people do it here.


Plus, these people are living overseas- either as expats or EU citizens
who were eligible for UK loans while we were EU members and have
returned. Any UK credit score they may have had will almost certainly
be limited in scope to the UK.

[JNugent]

Post by miked

Post by Theo

Post by Roger Hayter
I do wonder if people who go abroad actually owe any payments on their
student loans - or have they been set up as a graduate tax only on
those who earn here? Hence if you live abroad, or like a recent
Telegraph owner, are non-domiciled here for tax, maybe you don't owe
the Government anything until this status changes?

Student loans are set up as loans rather than a graduate tax precisely
to avoid people incurring the 'debt' and then working abroad out of the
reach of UK income tax.  If you move abroad you have to inform the SLC
and continue paying unless you can evidence your income is below the
repayment threshold. If you don't do that you can incur 'arrears' which
add to your balance (up to £300pm)
If you go entirely beyond the reach of UK law and stay there forever
then there's nothing they can do about enforcement, even if you are
theoretically obliged to repay.  But many people who go abroad will
come back at some point, and then the balance will be higher if they
hadn't followed the rules.

But cant the courts still enforce payment if you visit the UK while
living abroad? Could they not seize their pasport when they return to
the uk and not return it till they make some upfront payment by bank
transfer from their country of residence and agree to a binding
repayment plan. Even if they never return to the uk, surely owing 70,000
will affect their credit rating and ability to borrow money like apply
for a morgage or credit card wherever they live?

No.

Neither should they be able to.

The state does not own its citizens.

East Germany used to think it did, of course.

[Brian]

Post by Jon Ribbens

Post by Jethro_uk
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/jobs/schools-universities/not-coming-
back-britain-70000-expat-dodge-student-loans/
Again, a purely legal question (which was avoided in the article despite
the volume of words) about what mechanisms exists internationally to
allow a debt raised in one country to be recovered from a resident (and
possibly citizen) of another country ?

It's easy within the EU, you get a European Payment Order in the country
they're in. I believe there are also agreements with some other countries
to enforce civil debts remotely.

Post by Jethro_uk
Even in cases where the debtor at some point in the future returns to the
UK, can they be locked up or prevented from leaving until the lifelong
debt is repaid ?

No, of course not. We abolished debtors prisons.

When we were in the EU, EU students could obtain UK student loans.

Even while we were members, the default rate was staggering with no method
to recover the debts.

In 2013 the debt was £50m

As early as 2014, 43% of loans to EU students were outstanding.

By 2017 the debt had grown to £1.2bn.


The loans don’t just cover tuition. They could also get the accommodation
loans.

Someone - UK taxpayers - has to pay for these loans. Every £1 is a £1
less for the NHS, education, pensioners, defence, …… whatever your pet
project is, even staying in your pocket.

[Ottavio Caruso]

Post by Brian
When we were in the EU, EU students could obtain UK student loans.
Even while we were members, the default rate was staggering with no method
to recover the debts.

Meanwhile British students were able to study at German, Dutch, Swedish
universities at zero fee, while now they can't. Another Brexit dividend.

[Brian]

Post by Ottavio Caruso

Post by Brian
When we were in the EU, EU students could obtain UK student loans.
Even while we were members, the default rate was staggering with no method
to recover the debts.

Meanwhile British students were able to study at German, Dutch, Swedish
universities at zero fee, while now they can't. Another Brexit dividend.

Not quite.

Whereas UK students still paid for accommodation etc ( I know, our eldest
studied in France and we paid), EU students here could get loans which, if
not repaid, meant they got it free.

True, UK students were eligible for modest payments from the EU but not
nearly enough to cover even rent etc.

Remember, every £1 the Uk received back from the EU in grants/ subsidies
etc cost the UK more than £1 in contributions. Not really a good deal.

[Ottavio Caruso]

Post by Brian

Post by Ottavio Caruso

Post by Brian
When we were in the EU, EU students could obtain UK student loans.
Even while we were members, the default rate was staggering with no method
to recover the debts.

Meanwhile British students were able to study at German, Dutch, Swedish
universities at zero fee, while now they can't. Another Brexit dividend.

Not quite.
Whereas UK students still paid for accommodation etc ( I know, our eldest
studied in France and we paid), EU students here could get loans which, if
not repaid, meant they got it free.
True, UK students were eligible for modest payments from the EU but not
nearly enough to cover even rent etc.
Remember, every £1 the Uk received back from the EU in grants/ subsidies
etc cost the UK more than £1 in contributions. Not really a good deal.

We are talking of uni fees. These must be the same for all EU students.
Other local benefits may follow different rules. Member states can
impose limits on benefit to citizens of member states. The UK could have
done it but the successive governments didn't do it. It was just easier
to blame the EU than to implement the EU directives.

[Tim Jackson]

On Mon, 19 Aug 2024 19:05:27 -0000 (UTC), Brian wrote...

Post by Brian
Remember, every £1 the Uk received back from the EU in grants/ subsidies
etc cost the UK more than £1 in contributions. Not really a good deal.

You are just looking at the contributions and grants at a government
level between the UK and the EU.

Instead, you need to look more broadly at the costs or benefits to the
UK economy as a whole. The official assessment by the UK Office for
Budget Responsibility is that Brexit is costing us 4% of the UK's gross
domestic product, and will continue to do so in the long term. [*]

That dwarfs the government contributions many times over.
___________

[*] GDP usually goes up over time, but Brexit means it increases less
than it would have.

[RJH]

Post by Brian

Post by Ottavio Caruso

Post by Brian
When we were in the EU, EU students could obtain UK student loans.
Even while we were members, the default rate was staggering with no method
to recover the debts.

Meanwhile British students were able to study at German, Dutch, Swedish
universities at zero fee, while now they can't. Another Brexit dividend.

Not quite.
Whereas UK students still paid for accommodation etc ( I know, our eldest
studied in France and we paid), EU students here could get loans which, if
not repaid, meant they got it free.

Not 'free' - unpaid, stolen (etc.)

Post by Brian
True, UK students were eligible for modest payments from the EU but not
nearly enough to cover even rent etc.

Plus the not so trivial matter of zero fees. Wondering if your eldest
neglected to mention that . . .

Post by Brian
Remember, every £1 the Uk received back from the EU in grants/ subsidies
etc cost the UK more than £1 in contributions. Not really a good deal.

Yes, that's the way it worked. In large part because the UK benefitted
disproportionally from the benefits of the EU trading block advantage. So in
fact a very good deal for the UK, while it lasted.