Amazon age verification

[The Todal]

An Amazon delivery man today asked me for proof of my age so that he
could deliver a package containing alcohol.

I certainly don't look under 18. I would be flattered if it was said
that I look to be under 50.

He said that he would need to see a driving licence or passport, or he
wouldn't be able to deliver the item. I asked if other customers were
refusing to produce proof of age and the items were being returned to
Amazon and he said yes, that has been happening.

Is this a new thing, for UK customers, perhaps after other countries
have already implemented this silly rule? There must be customers who
possess neither a passport nor a driving licence.

[Mark Goodge]

Post by The Todal
An Amazon delivery man today asked me for proof of my age so that he
could deliver a package containing alcohol.
I certainly don't look under 18. I would be flattered if it was said
that I look to be under 50.
He said that he would need to see a driving licence or passport, or he
wouldn't be able to deliver the item. I asked if other customers were
refusing to produce proof of age and the items were being returned to
Amazon and he said yes, that has been happening.
Is this a new thing, for UK customers, perhaps after other countries
have already implemented this silly rule? There must be customers who
possess neither a passport nor a driving licence.

The requirement that deliveries containing alcohol have to be
delivered to an adult (and can't be left in a safe place, or with a
neighbour, etc) is imposed by law. It's essentially the same as the
requirement that supermarkets have to send someone over to verify that
you're an adult before you can pay for alcohol at a self-service till.
How that requirement is met is up to the retailer.

Amazon does seem to be more picky about it than most. They could, like
the supermarkets, allow staff to use their own discretion when someone
is clearly over 18. But I suspect the issue they have is that, because
the courier is not necessarily one of their own staff, they don't want
to be at the mercy of one who might cut corners and not check when
they ought to. Because even if the mistake is that of the van driver,
it's still Amazon that has broken the law.

Mark

[Roland Perry]

Post by Mark Goodge

Post by The Todal
An Amazon delivery man today asked me for proof of my age so that he
could deliver a package containing alcohol.
I certainly don't look under 18. I would be flattered if it was said
that I look to be under 50.
He said that he would need to see a driving licence or passport, or he
wouldn't be able to deliver the item. I asked if other customers were
refusing to produce proof of age and the items were being returned to
Amazon and he said yes, that has been happening.
Is this a new thing, for UK customers, perhaps after other countries
have already implemented this silly rule? There must be customers who
possess neither a passport nor a driving licence.

The requirement that deliveries containing alcohol have to be
delivered to an adult (and can't be left in a safe place, or with a
neighbour, etc) is imposed by law. It's essentially the same as the
requirement that supermarkets have to send someone over to verify that
you're an adult before you can pay for alcohol at a self-service till.

It's not just that - when the (conventional) checkout assistant is under
$foo years old. 18, 21, 25? Maybe I should start asking them their age.

Post by Mark Goodge
How that requirement is met is up to the retailer.

At the CoOp is used for few years it's by the underage checkout
assistant bellowing "ALCOHOL" at the top of their voice, and eventually
an adult shop assistant approaching the till.

At the CoOp I use today, they ring a doorbell, and nothing happens. Then
they ring it again, and again, until an adult appears.

Aldi doesn't employ underage checkout assistants.

Sainsburys tends to involve the young checkout assistants trying to grab
the attention of the person at the next till, with the distinct
possibility of "rinse and repeat". Eventually they'll get a distant nod
from someone.

At none of these have I ever been asked for proof.

Post by Mark Goodge
Amazon does seem to be more picky about it than most. They could, like
the supermarkets, allow staff to use their own discretion when someone
is clearly over 18. But I suspect the issue they have is that, because
the courier is not necessarily one of their own staff, they don't want
to be at the mercy of one who might cut corners and not check when
they ought to. Because even if the mistake is that of the van driver,
it's still Amazon that has broken the law.
Mark

[tim...]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Mark Goodge

Post by The Todal
An Amazon delivery man today asked me for proof of my age so that he
could deliver a package containing alcohol.
I certainly don't look under 18. I would be flattered if it was said
that I look to be under 50.
He said that he would need to see a driving licence or passport, or he
wouldn't be able to deliver the item. I asked if other customers were
refusing to produce proof of age and the items were being returned to
Amazon and he said yes, that has been happening.
Is this a new thing, for UK customers, perhaps after other countries
have already implemented this silly rule? There must be customers who
possess neither a passport nor a driving licence.

The requirement that deliveries containing alcohol have to be
delivered to an adult (and can't be left in a safe place, or with a
neighbour, etc) is imposed by law. It's essentially the same as the
requirement that supermarkets have to send someone over to verify that
you're an adult before you can pay for alcohol at a self-service till.

It's not just that - when the (conventional) checkout assistant is under
$foo years old. 18, 21, 25? Maybe I should start asking them their age.

Post by Mark Goodge
How that requirement is met is up to the retailer.

At the CoOp is used for few years it's by the underage checkout assistant
bellowing "ALCOHOL" at the top of their voice, and eventually an adult
shop assistant approaching the till.
At the CoOp I use today, they ring a doorbell, and nothing happens. Then
they ring it again, and again, until an adult appears.
Aldi doesn't employ underage checkout assistants.

That's because Aldi staff are employed as multi-skilled and your checkout
assistant is just as likely to be today's Assistant Manager

tim

[Roland Perry]

Post by tim...

Post by Roland Perry
Aldi doesn't employ underage checkout assistants.

That's because Aldi staff are employed as multi-skilled and your
checkout assistant is just as likely to be today's Assistant Manager

Actually mine really was the Manager yesterday. Although this slowed
down my lane because they spent excessive time opening and closing other
lanes every few seconds, they way they do, rather than checking out my
groceries.

[Wm]

Post by tim...

Post by Roland Perry
Aldi doesn't employ underage checkout assistants.

That's because Aldi staff are employed as multi-skilled and your
checkout assistant is just as likely to be today's Assistant Manager

I didn't know that. Interesting.

[Mark Goodge]

Post by Wm

Post by tim...

Post by Roland Perry
Aldi doesn't employ underage checkout assistants.

That's because Aldi staff are employed as multi-skilled and your
checkout assistant is just as likely to be today's Assistant Manager

I didn't know that. Interesting.

Aldi and Lidl have a very flat organisational structure. I don't know
whether that's specific to their business model, or whether it
reflects typical German retail practice.

A typical Aldi or Lidl store will have one manager, one assistant
manager, and everyone else. A larger store may have two assistant
managers. Everyone, including the manager and assistant manager, is
multi-skilled and does all shopfloor work, including operating
checkouts, supervising self-checkouts, shelf-stacking, stock-taking,
booking in deliveries, trolley pushing, etc. The majority of their
regional staff (area managers, etc) have come up through the ranks as
store managers and shopfloor staff.

They pay better than most other supermarkets in a like-for-like
comparison, but they work their staff harder. Everybody, including the
mangager, works a rota which covers every shift on every trading day,
and they rely on overtime to cover staff absence or holiday. So it's
typically a long working week, but, by retail standards, a relatively
lucrative one. It's generally reckoned that a job at Aldi or Lidl is
good for a single person who cares more about the money than their
work/life balance, or someone strongly ambitious who wants a clear and
attainable route to the upper echelons of management in a relatively
short space of time. It's less good for someone who wants to be able
to spend regular time with their family or who wants a more typical
9-5 Monday to Friday routine.

Mark

[Roland Perry]

Post by Mark Goodge

Post by Wm

Post by tim...

Post by Roland Perry
Aldi doesn't employ underage checkout assistants.

That's because Aldi staff are employed as multi-skilled and your
checkout assistant is just as likely to be today's Assistant Manager

I didn't know that. Interesting.

Aldi and Lidl have a very flat organisational structure. I don't know
whether that's specific to their business model, or whether it
reflects typical German retail practice.
A typical Aldi or Lidl store will have one manager, one assistant
manager, and everyone else. A larger store may have two assistant
managers. Everyone, including the manager and assistant manager, is
multi-skilled and does all shopfloor work, including operating
checkouts, supervising self-checkouts, shelf-stacking, stock-taking,
booking in deliveries, trolley pushing, etc. The majority of their
regional staff (area managers, etc) have come up through the ranks as
store managers and shopfloor staff.
They pay better than most other supermarkets in a like-for-like
comparison, but they work their staff harder. Everybody, including the
mangager, works a rota which covers every shift on every trading day,
and they rely on overtime to cover staff absence or holiday. So it's
typically a long working week, but, by retail standards, a relatively
lucrative one. It's generally reckoned that a job at Aldi or Lidl is
good for a single person who cares more about the money than their
work/life balance, or someone strongly ambitious who wants a clear and
attainable route to the upper echelons of management in a relatively
short space of time. It's less good for someone who wants to be able
to spend regular time with their family or who wants a more typical
9-5 Monday to Friday routine.

Is it the case that all the staff are full-timers?

I know other supermarkets rely a lot on part-timers (and not just the
Saturday - now also Sunday - school kids)

[Mark Goodge]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Mark Goodge
They pay better than most other supermarkets in a like-for-like
comparison, but they work their staff harder. Everybody, including the
mangager, works a rota which covers every shift on every trading day,
and they rely on overtime to cover staff absence or holiday. So it's
typically a long working week, but, by retail standards, a relatively
lucrative one. It's generally reckoned that a job at Aldi or Lidl is
good for a single person who cares more about the money than their
work/life balance, or someone strongly ambitious who wants a clear and
attainable route to the upper echelons of management in a relatively
short space of time. It's less good for someone who wants to be able
to spend regular time with their family or who wants a more typical
9-5 Monday to Friday routine.

Is it the case that all the staff are full-timers?

Not all, but they make much less use of part-timers than other
supermarkets.

Post by Roland Perry
I know other supermarkets rely a lot on part-timers (and not just the
Saturday - now also Sunday - school kids)

That's the thing that Aldi and Lidl prefer not to do. A lot of
supermarkets have an almost entirely separate workforce for weekends,
often comprising part-timers (often students and older school pupils
working to supplement their studies), so that their core staff can
work Monday to Friday. But the German discounters prefer to have all
their staff rostered across all days and all shifts, because that's
key to their multi-tasking ethos. Where they do use part-timers and
temporary staff, it's mainly to top up staff numbers during seasonal
peaks and help cover staff absence/holiday where it's impractical to
do so with other permanent staff working overtime.

Mark

[Martin Harran]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Mark Goodge

Post by The Todal
An Amazon delivery man today asked me for proof of my age so that he
could deliver a package containing alcohol.
I certainly don't look under 18. I would be flattered if it was said
that I look to be under 50.
He said that he would need to see a driving licence or passport, or he
wouldn't be able to deliver the item. I asked if other customers were
refusing to produce proof of age and the items were being returned to
Amazon and he said yes, that has been happening.
Is this a new thing, for UK customers, perhaps after other countries
have already implemented this silly rule? There must be customers who
possess neither a passport nor a driving licence.

The requirement that deliveries containing alcohol have to be
delivered to an adult (and can't be left in a safe place, or with a
neighbour, etc) is imposed by law. It's essentially the same as the
requirement that supermarkets have to send someone over to verify that
you're an adult before you can pay for alcohol at a self-service till.

It's not just that - when the (conventional) checkout assistant is under
$foo years old. 18, 21, 25? Maybe I should start asking them their age.

Post by Mark Goodge
How that requirement is met is up to the retailer.

At the CoOp is used for few years it's by the underage checkout
assistant bellowing "ALCOHOL" at the top of their voice, and eventually
an adult shop assistant approaching the till.

Is there anything in law that says that a checkout assistant must be
over 18 to confirm the age of a purchaser of alcohol?

Post by Roland Perry
At the CoOp I use today, they ring a doorbell, and nothing happens. Then
they ring it again, and again, until an adult appears.
Aldi doesn't employ underage checkout assistants.
Sainsburys tends to involve the young checkout assistants trying to grab
the attention of the person at the next till, with the distinct
possibility of "rinse and repeat". Eventually they'll get a distant nod
from someone.
At none of these have I ever been asked for proof.

Post by Mark Goodge
Amazon does seem to be more picky about it than most. They could, like
the supermarkets, allow staff to use their own discretion when someone
is clearly over 18. But I suspect the issue they have is that, because
the courier is not necessarily one of their own staff, they don't want
to be at the mercy of one who might cut corners and not check when
they ought to. Because even if the mistake is that of the van driver,
it's still Amazon that has broken the law.
Mark

[Roland Perry]

Post by Martin Harran

Post by Roland Perry
At the CoOp is used for few years it's by the underage checkout
assistant bellowing "ALCOHOL" at the top of their voice, and eventually
an adult shop assistant approaching the till.

Is there anything in law that says that a checkout assistant must be
over 18 to confirm the age of a purchaser of alcohol?

The shops appear to think so. All of them.

One defence that apparently doesn't wash is if I present my Amex "Member
since mid 70's" and asserting they don't generally issue cards to people
who haven't yet been born. So even if they issued me the card at the age
of one, I must by now be at least 40yrs old.

[Sara Merriman]

Post by Martin Harran

Post by Roland Perry
At the CoOp is used for few years it's by the underage checkout
assistant bellowing "ALCOHOL" at the top of their voice, and eventually
an adult shop assistant approaching the till.

Is there anything in law that says that a checkout assistant must be
over 18 to confirm the age of a purchaser of alcohol?

I think it's more that they can't sell alcohol if they're under 18,
unless supervised by someone who is.

[Roger Hayter]

Post by Martin Harran

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Mark Goodge

Post by The Todal
An Amazon delivery man today asked me for proof of my age so that he
could deliver a package containing alcohol.
I certainly don't look under 18. I would be flattered if it was said
that I look to be under 50.
He said that he would need to see a driving licence or passport, or he
wouldn't be able to deliver the item. I asked if other customers were
refusing to produce proof of age and the items were being returned to
Amazon and he said yes, that has been happening.
Is this a new thing, for UK customers, perhaps after other countries
have already implemented this silly rule? There must be customers who
possess neither a passport nor a driving licence.

The requirement that deliveries containing alcohol have to be
delivered to an adult (and can't be left in a safe place, or with a
neighbour, etc) is imposed by law. It's essentially the same as the
requirement that supermarkets have to send someone over to verify that
you're an adult before you can pay for alcohol at a self-service till.

It's not just that - when the (conventional) checkout assistant is under
$foo years old. 18, 21, 25? Maybe I should start asking them their age.

Post by Mark Goodge
How that requirement is met is up to the retailer.

At the CoOp is used for few years it's by the underage checkout
assistant bellowing "ALCOHOL" at the top of their voice, and eventually
an adult shop assistant approaching the till.

Is there anything in law that says that a checkout assistant must be
over 18 to confirm the age of a purchaser of alcohol?

I don't know. But there is a law that they have to be surpervised by
an adult during each sale of alcohol.

Post by Martin Harran

Post by Roland Perry
At the CoOp I use today, they ring a doorbell, and nothing happens. Then
they ring it again, and again, until an adult appears.
Aldi doesn't employ underage checkout assistants.
Sainsburys tends to involve the young checkout assistants trying to grab
the attention of the person at the next till, with the distinct
possibility of "rinse and repeat". Eventually they'll get a distant nod
from someone.
At none of these have I ever been asked for proof.

Post by Mark Goodge
Amazon does seem to be more picky about it than most. They could, like
the supermarkets, allow staff to use their own discretion when someone
is clearly over 18. But I suspect the issue they have is that, because
the courier is not necessarily one of their own staff, they don't want
to be at the mercy of one who might cut corners and not check when
they ought to. Because even if the mistake is that of the van driver,
it's still Amazon that has broken the law.
Mark

[Jeff]

Post by Martin Harran
Is there anything in law that says that a checkout assistant must be
over 18 to confirm the age of a purchaser of alcohol?

A checkout assistant who is under 18 may not sell alcohol at all,
regardless of the age of the buyer, without the 'specific' approval of a
"responsible person" as recognised by the Licensing Act 2003.

Jeff

[Vidcapper]

Post by Roland Perry
Aldi doesn't employ underage checkout assistants.

Aldi doesn't use *enough* checkout assistants.

Despite it being the nearest shop to me, and cheap, I rarely go there
because few of the tills are staffed, and there are usually long queues
at the few there are.

Also, no self-service checkouts.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Vidcapper

Post by Roland Perry
Aldi doesn't employ underage checkout assistants.

Aldi doesn't use *enough* checkout assistants.
Despite it being the nearest shop to me, and cheap, I rarely go there
because few of the tills are staffed, and there are usually long queues
at the few there are.

The limiting factor at the Aldi I use is the size of the car park. That
feeds through to an average of three tills (out of eight) open. The only
time they have more open is at half past 10 on a Sunday when the first
"shift" of shoppers are all leaving at roughly the same time.

Post by Vidcapper
Also, no self-service checkouts.

Almost everyone buys more than you'd be able to manage at a self-service
till.

[tim...]

Post by Vidcapper

Post by Roland Perry
Aldi doesn't employ underage checkout assistants.

Aldi doesn't use *enough* checkout assistants.
Despite it being the nearest shop to me, and cheap, I rarely go there
because few of the tills are staffed, and there are usually long queues at
the few there are.
Also, no self-service checkouts.

come to London

there are some that are *only* self service checkouts

tim

[Roland Perry]

Post by tim...

Post by Vidcapper

Post by Roland Perry
Aldi doesn't employ underage checkout assistants.

Aldi doesn't use *enough* checkout assistants.
Despite it being the nearest shop to me, and cheap, I rarely go there
because few of the tills are staffed, and there are usually long
queues at the few there are.
Also, no self-service checkouts.

come to London
there are some that are *only* self service checkouts

Some of the items you can buy in Aldi are *huge*. How does that work at
a self-checkout only branch? You'd never be able to scan them, let alone
put them on the output platform.

[s***@gowanhill.com]

Post by Roland Perry
Some of the items you can buy in Aldi are *huge*. How does that work at
a self-checkout only branch? You'd never be able to scan them, let alone
put them on the output platform.

Presumably the same as at B&Q, which has hand-held scanners for large items* and understands they go on the floor and don't get weighed.

*Although as Aldi is almost exclusively own-brand, they tend to have a shorter, much easier to type product code. I've bought radiator cabinets from Aldi and just told the checkout person how many and the PLU (price look up) code on the box.

Owain

[tim...]

Post by tim...

Post by Vidcapper

Post by Roland Perry
Aldi doesn't employ underage checkout assistants.

Aldi doesn't use *enough* checkout assistants.
Despite it being the nearest shop to me, and cheap, I rarely go there
because few of the tills are staffed, and there are usually long queues
at the few there are.
Also, no self-service checkouts.

come to London
there are some that are *only* self service checkouts

Some of the items you can buy in Aldi are *huge*. How does that work at a
self-checkout only branch? You'd never be able to scan them, let alone put
them on the output platform.

They are of the "Local" variant (yes Aldi has that too),

They seem not to have non food items (except cleaning
consumables/toiletries).

tim

[Andy Burns]

Post by Roland Perry
Some of the items you can buy in Aldi are *huge*. How does that work at
a self-checkout only branch?

Maybe they don't stock the big stuff in the scan'n'dash stores?

[Roland Perry]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Roland Perry
Some of the items you can buy in Aldi are *huge*. How does that work
at a self-checkout only branch?

Maybe they don't stock the big stuff in the scan'n'dash stores?

My local Aldi is quite small and yet they don't reduce the range much
(compared to larger ones). They just have fewer of each in the store,
taking up less feet of aisle space. It makes the converse (going to a
bigger store expecting perhaps a wide range) more disappointing.
Although they'll be less likely to be 'sold out' I suppose.

[Grumps]

Post by Mark Goodge

Post by The Todal
An Amazon delivery man today asked me for proof of my age so that he
could deliver a package containing alcohol.
I certainly don't look under 18. I would be flattered if it was said
that I look to be under 50.
He said that he would need to see a driving licence or passport, or he
wouldn't be able to deliver the item. I asked if other customers were
refusing to produce proof of age and the items were being returned to
Amazon and he said yes, that has been happening.
Is this a new thing, for UK customers, perhaps after other countries
have already implemented this silly rule? There must be customers who
possess neither a passport nor a driving licence.

The requirement that deliveries containing alcohol have to be
delivered to an adult (and can't be left in a safe place, or with a
neighbour, etc) is imposed by law. It's essentially the same as the
requirement that supermarkets have to send someone over to verify that
you're an adult before you can pay for alcohol at a self-service till.
How that requirement is met is up to the retailer.
Amazon does seem to be more picky about it than most. They could, like
the supermarkets, allow staff to use their own discretion when someone
is clearly over 18. But I suspect the issue they have is that, because
the courier is not necessarily one of their own staff, they don't want
to be at the mercy of one who might cut corners and not check when
they ought to. Because even if the mistake is that of the van driver,
it's still Amazon that has broken the law.
Mark

Interesting. So how does the gin my wife purchases arrive on the
doorstep with no signature?

[kat]

Post by The Todal
An Amazon delivery man today asked me for proof of my age so that he
could deliver a package containing alcohol.
I certainly don't look under 18. I would be flattered if it was said
that I look to be under 50.
He said that he would need to see a driving licence or passport, or he
wouldn't be able to deliver the item. I asked if other customers were
refusing to produce proof of age and the items were being returned to
Amazon and he said yes, that has been happening.
Is this a new thing, for UK customers, perhaps after other countries
have already implemented this silly rule? There must be customers who
possess neither a passport nor a driving licence.

I had the same thing happen when I purchased a new kitchen knife, but I
didn’t really think about it as shops have to confirm age too. Maybe
delivery people have to give more proof they checked.

[Vidcapper]

Post by The Todal
An Amazon delivery man today asked me for proof of my age so that he
could deliver a package containing alcohol.
I certainly don't look under 18. I would be flattered if it was said
that I look to be under 50.
He said that he would need to see a driving licence or passport, or he
wouldn't be able to deliver the item. I asked if other customers were
refusing to produce proof of age and the items were being returned to
Amazon and he said yes, that has been happening.
Is this a new thing, for UK customers, perhaps after other countries
have already implemented this silly rule? There must be customers who
possess neither a passport nor a driving licence.

Myself, for instance.

[GB]

Post by Vidcapper

Post by The Todal
An Amazon delivery man today asked me for proof of my age so that he
could deliver a package containing alcohol.
I certainly don't look under 18. I would be flattered if it was said
that I look to be under 50.
He said that he would need to see a driving licence or passport, or he
wouldn't be able to deliver the item. I asked if other customers were
refusing to produce proof of age and the items were being returned to
Amazon and he said yes, that has been happening.
Is this a new thing, for UK customers, perhaps after other countries
have already implemented this silly rule? There must be customers who
possess neither a passport nor a driving licence.

Myself, for instance.

Will they accept a Freedom Pass?

[Anthony R. Gold]

Post by GB

Post by Vidcapper

Post by The Todal
An Amazon delivery man today asked me for proof of my age so that he
could deliver a package containing alcohol.
I certainly don't look under 18. I would be flattered if it was said
that I look to be under 50.
He said that he would need to see a driving licence or passport, or he
wouldn't be able to deliver the item. I asked if other customers were
refusing to produce proof of age and the items were being returned to
Amazon and he said yes, that has been happening.
Is this a new thing, for UK customers, perhaps after other countries
have already implemented this silly rule? There must be customers who
possess neither a passport nor a driving licence.

Myself, for instance.

Will they accept a Freedom Pass?

The holder's antiquity is not necessarily the qualification for its issue.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Anthony R. Gold

Post by GB

Post by Vidcapper

Post by The Todal
An Amazon delivery man today asked me for proof of my age so that he
could deliver a package containing alcohol.
I certainly don't look under 18. I would be flattered if it was said
that I look to be under 50.
He said that he would need to see a driving licence or passport, or he
wouldn't be able to deliver the item. I asked if other customers were
refusing to produce proof of age and the items were being returned to
Amazon and he said yes, that has been happening.
Is this a new thing, for UK customers, perhaps after other countries
have already implemented this silly rule? There must be customers who
possess neither a passport nor a driving licence.

Myself, for instance.

Will they accept a Freedom Pass?

The holder's antiquity is not necessarily the qualification for its issue.

I wonder what the minimum age is, nowithsanding.

And if for a moment we could be not quite so London-centric, are any
regional passes issued to those under 60 (or whatever age it was
egregiously postponed to, for many holders).

[tim...]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anthony R. Gold

Post by GB

Post by Vidcapper

Post by The Todal
An Amazon delivery man today asked me for proof of my age so that he
could deliver a package containing alcohol.
I certainly don't look under 18. I would be flattered if it was said
that I look to be under 50.
He said that he would need to see a driving licence or passport, or he
wouldn't be able to deliver the item. I asked if other customers were
refusing to produce proof of age and the items were being returned to
Amazon and he said yes, that has been happening.
Is this a new thing, for UK customers, perhaps after other countries
have already implemented this silly rule? There must be customers who
possess neither a passport nor a driving licence.

Myself, for instance.

Will they accept a Freedom Pass?

The holder's antiquity is not necessarily the qualification for its issue.

I wonder what the minimum age is, nowithsanding.

for the disabled version, presumably no limit

and it isn't obvious reading them which is which. You need to know the
code, which seems to be: yellow strip = disabled and blue stripe = OAP

and who's going to trust a delivery man to know that (I didn't until I just
researched it)

tim

[Wm]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anthony R. Gold

Post by GB
Will they accept a Freedom Pass?

The holder's antiquity is not necessarily the qualification for its issue.

I wonder what the minimum age is, nowithsanding.
And if for a moment we could be not quite so London-centric, are any
regional passes issued to those under 60 (or whatever age it was
egregiously postponed to, for many holders).

My local alcohol seller in London (sorry) accepts age verification cards
for younger people, the borough sets the rules. I've never been asked
for age verification when I top up my Tesco order with alcohol to get a
discount.

[michael adams]

Post by Anthony R. Gold

Post by GB

Post by Vidcapper

Post by The Todal
An Amazon delivery man today asked me for proof of my age so that he
could deliver a package containing alcohol.
I certainly don't look under 18. I would be flattered if it was said
that I look to be under 50.
He said that he would need to see a driving licence or passport, or he
wouldn't be able to deliver the item. I asked if other customers were
refusing to produce proof of age and the items were being returned to
Amazon and he said yes, that has been happening.
Is this a new thing, for UK customers, perhaps after other countries
have already implemented this silly rule? There must be customers who
possess neither a passport nor a driving licence.

Myself, for instance.

Will they accept a Freedom Pass?

The holder's antiquity is not necessarily the qualification for its issue.

It is certainly a necessary qualification but clearly not a sufficient
one, as a residential qualification is also required.


michael adams

...

[Anthony R. Gold]

On Sat, 26 Oct 2019 16:39:49 +0100, "michael adams"

Post by michael adams

Post by Anthony R. Gold

Post by GB

Post by Vidcapper

Post by The Todal
An Amazon delivery man today asked me for proof of my age so that he
could deliver a package containing alcohol.
I certainly don't look under 18. I would be flattered if it was said
that I look to be under 50.
He said that he would need to see a driving licence or passport, or he
wouldn't be able to deliver the item. I asked if other customers were
refusing to produce proof of age and the items were being returned to
Amazon and he said yes, that has been happening.
Is this a new thing, for UK customers, perhaps after other countries
have already implemented this silly rule? There must be customers who
possess neither a passport nor a driving licence.

Myself, for instance.

Will they accept a Freedom Pass?

The holder's antiquity is not necessarily the qualification for its issue.

It is certainly a necessary qualification but clearly not a sufficient
one, as a residential qualification is also required.

Your certainty is mistaken.

https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/services/freedom-pass/disabled-persons-freedom-pass

[tim...]

Post by Anthony R. Gold
On Sat, 26 Oct 2019 16:39:49 +0100, "michael adams"

Post by michael adams

Post by Anthony R. Gold

Post by GB

Post by Vidcapper

Post by The Todal
An Amazon delivery man today asked me for proof of my age so that he
could deliver a package containing alcohol.
I certainly don't look under 18. I would be flattered if it was said
that I look to be under 50.
He said that he would need to see a driving licence or passport, or he
wouldn't be able to deliver the item. I asked if other customers were
refusing to produce proof of age and the items were being returned to
Amazon and he said yes, that has been happening.
Is this a new thing, for UK customers, perhaps after other countries
have already implemented this silly rule? There must be customers who
possess neither a passport nor a driving licence.

Myself, for instance.

Will they accept a Freedom Pass?

The holder's antiquity is not necessarily the qualification for its issue.

It is certainly a necessary qualification but clearly not a sufficient
one, as a residential qualification is also required.

Your certainty is mistaken.
https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/services/freedom-pass/disabled-persons-freedom-pass

Residency of a London Borough *is* required

A Freedom pass is valid, in London, on services that the National pass does
not give access to. It is certainly a different beast to a National
disability pass.

[Jon Ribbens]

Post by tim...

Post by Anthony R. Gold
On Sat, 26 Oct 2019 16:39:49 +0100, "michael adams"

Post by michael adams

Post by Anthony R. Gold
The holder's antiquity is not necessarily the qualification for its issue.

It is certainly a necessary qualification but clearly not a sufficient
one, as a residential qualification is also required.

Your certainty is mistaken.
https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/services/freedom-pass/disabled-persons-freedom-pass

Residency of a London Borough *is* required

Yes, what he said was that "antiquity" is not required.

[d***@gmail.com]

Post by The Todal
Is this a new thing, for UK customers, perhaps after other countries
have already implemented this silly rule? There must be customers who
possess neither a passport nor a driving licence.

Not sure how "new" it is, but Amazon make it very clear on the pages for relevant products that you *will* be asked for ID, not just *may* be asked if you look underage:

"Valid photographic ID and a signature of the recipient will be required upon delivery for all customers."

[Roland Perry]

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by The Todal
Is this a new thing, for UK customers, perhaps after other countries
have already implemented this silly rule? There must be customers who
possess neither a passport nor a driving licence.

Not sure how "new" it is, but Amazon make it very clear on the pages for relevant products that you *will* be asked for ID, not just *may* be
"Valid photographic ID and a signature of the recipient will be required upon delivery for all customers."

Do they have a list of what they regard as "Valid".

Are they perhaps conflating the concept with "acceptable"?

For example, I have a perfectly valid photo-ID issued by - well it's not
entirely clear, but for the sake of argument let's call it Rail Delivery
Group nee ATOC) - which allows me to use 7day+ season train tickets.

Distinct from other perfectly valid photo-ID which eg allows me to
travel free on buses after the morning peak, there's no implication of
age. Neither has an address on them.

[d***@gmail.com]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by The Todal
Is this a new thing, for UK customers, perhaps after other countries
have already implemented this silly rule? There must be customers who
possess neither a passport nor a driving licence.

Not sure how "new" it is, but Amazon make it very clear on the pages for relevant products that you *will* be asked for ID, not just *may* be
"Valid photographic ID and a signature of the recipient will be required upon delivery for all customers."

Do they have a list of what they regard as "Valid".

Yes:

"List of acceptable photo identification:

A passport
A European Union (photocard) driving licence
Ministry of Defence Form 90 (a defence identity card issued to serving military)
National Identity card issued by European Union Member State (other than the United Kingdom), and Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein or Switzerland
A biometric immigration document (issued by The Home Office to individuals going through different stages of the immigration process as a residence permit.).
A photographic identity card bearing a national Proof of Age Standard Scheme (PASS) hologram"

[Roland Perry]

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by Roland Perry

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by The Todal
Is this a new thing, for UK customers, perhaps after other countries
have already implemented this silly rule? There must be customers who
possess neither a passport nor a driving licence.

Not sure how "new" it is, but Amazon make it very clear on the pages
for relevant products that you *will* be asked for ID, not just
*may* be
"Valid photographic ID and a signature of the recipient will be
required upon delivery for all customers."

Do they have a list of what they regard as "Valid".

So as I predicted, they were using "valid" as a rather poor substitute
for the expression "acceptable".

Post by d***@gmail.com
A passport
A European Union (photocard) driving licence

Oops, that's going to be a bit awkward post-Brexit. But also
disenfranchises those who still have paper licences.

Post by d***@gmail.com
Ministry of Defence Form 90 (a defence identity card issued to serving military)
National Identity card issued by European Union Member State (other
than the United Kingdom),

What's wrong with a UK National ID Card, apart from not existing, of
course?

Post by d***@gmail.com
and Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein or Switzerland
A biometric immigration document (issued by The Home Office to
individuals going through different stages of the immigration process
as a residence permit.)

Do these actually exist? Sounds to me like something they were trying to
use as a pilot for the now-failed UK ID card scheme.

Post by d***@gmail.com
A photographic identity card bearing a national Proof of Age Standard Scheme (PASS) hologram"

Whose website is endorsed by "Victoria Atkins the Home Office Minister
for Crime, Safeguarding and Vulnerability" who I must now add to my list
of ministers I've never heard of before.

<Thread convergence> why can't this card be used for validating access
to porn sites?

<more thread convergence> At £15 it sets an interesting price point for
the "cost" of a "free" voter-ID card.

[tim...]

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by Roland Perry

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by The Todal
Is this a new thing, for UK customers, perhaps after other countries
have already implemented this silly rule? There must be customers who
possess neither a passport nor a driving licence.

Not sure how "new" it is, but Amazon make it very clear on the pages
for relevant products that you *will* be asked for ID, not just *may*
be
"Valid photographic ID and a signature of the recipient will be
required upon delivery for all customers."

Do they have a list of what they regard as "Valid".

So as I predicted, they were using "valid" as a rather poor substitute for
the expression "acceptable".

Post by d***@gmail.com
A passport
A European Union (photocard) driving licence

Oops, that's going to be a bit awkward post-Brexit. But also
disenfranchises those who still have paper licences.

as they don't have a photo on, surely that's the intention

tim

[Roland Perry]

Post by tim...

Post by Roland Perry

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by Roland Perry

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by The Todal
Is this a new thing, for UK customers, perhaps after other countries
have already implemented this silly rule? There must be customers who
possess neither a passport nor a driving licence.

Not sure how "new" it is, but Amazon make it very clear on the
pages for relevant products that you *will* be asked for ID, not
just *may* be
"Valid photographic ID and a signature of the recipient will be
required upon delivery for all customers."

Do they have a list of what they regard as "Valid".

So as I predicted, they were using "valid" as a rather poor
substitute for the expression "acceptable".

Post by d***@gmail.com
A passport
A European Union (photocard) driving licence

Oops, that's going to be a bit awkward post-Brexit. But also
disenfranchises those who still have paper licences.

as they don't have a photo on, surely that's the intention

I don't know why a photo is necessary, because if the name on the
package matches the name on the licence, job done.

[tim...]

Post by tim...

Post by Roland Perry

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by Roland Perry

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by The Todal
Is this a new thing, for UK customers, perhaps after other countries
have already implemented this silly rule? There must be customers who
possess neither a passport nor a driving licence.

Not sure how "new" it is, but Amazon make it very clear on the pages
for relevant products that you *will* be asked for ID, not just *may*
be
"Valid photographic ID and a signature of the recipient will be
required upon delivery for all customers."

Do they have a list of what they regard as "Valid".

So as I predicted, they were using "valid" as a rather poor substitute
for the expression "acceptable".

Post by d***@gmail.com
A passport
A European Union (photocard) driving licence

Oops, that's going to be a bit awkward post-Brexit. But also
disenfranchises those who still have paper licences.

as they don't have a photo on, surely that's the intention

I don't know why a photo is necessary, because if the name on the package
matches the name on the licence, job done.

????

to prove that it's your licence and not someone else

remember, you are providing proof of age of the named recipient not just
that you are the named recipient

[Roland Perry]

Post by tim...

Post by Roland Perry

Post by tim...

Post by Roland Perry

Post by d***@gmail.com
A passport
A European Union (photocard) driving licence

Oops, that's going to be a bit awkward post-Brexit. But also
disenfranchises those who still have paper licences.

as they don't have a photo on, surely that's the intention

I don't know why a photo is necessary, because if the name on the
package matches the name on the licence, job done.

????
to prove that it's your licence and not someone else
remember, you are providing proof of age of the named recipient

Which a non-photo licence does. You match the name/address on the parcel
with the name/address on the licence.

Post by tim...
not just that you are the named recipient

I don't need to prove *my* age, just that of the person who ordered it.

[d***@gmail.com]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by tim...

Post by Roland Perry

Post by tim...

Post by Roland Perry

Post by d***@gmail.com
A passport
A European Union (photocard) driving licence

Oops, that's going to be a bit awkward post-Brexit. But also
disenfranchises those who still have paper licences.

as they don't have a photo on, surely that's the intention

I don't know why a photo is necessary, because if the name on the
package matches the name on the licence, job done.

????
to prove that it's your licence and not someone else
remember, you are providing proof of age of the named recipient

Which a non-photo licence does. You match the name/address on the parcel
with the name/address on the licence.

Post by tim...
not just that you are the named recipient

I don't need to prove *my* age, just that of the person who ordered it.

What they want to know is the age of the person they're handing it to. They don't care whether the person signing for it is the customer.

[Roland Perry]

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by Roland Perry

Post by tim...

Post by Roland Perry

Post by tim...

Post by Roland Perry

Post by d***@gmail.com
A passport
A European Union (photocard) driving licence

Oops, that's going to be a bit awkward post-Brexit. But also
disenfranchises those who still have paper licences.

as they don't have a photo on, surely that's the intention

I don't know why a photo is necessary, because if the name on the
package matches the name on the licence, job done.

????
to prove that it's your licence and not someone else
remember, you are providing proof of age of the named recipient

Which a non-photo licence does. You match the name/address on the parcel
with the name/address on the licence.

Post by tim...
not just that you are the named recipient

I don't need to prove *my* age, just that of the person who ordered it.

What they want to know is the age of the person they're handing it to.
They don't care whether the person signing for it is the customer.

I could be a burglar.

[Roger Hayter]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by Roland Perry

Post by tim...

Post by Roland Perry

Post by tim...

Post by Roland Perry

Post by d***@gmail.com
A passport
A European Union (photocard) driving licence

Oops, that's going to be a bit awkward post-Brexit. But also
disenfranchises those who still have paper licences.

as they don't have a photo on, surely that's the intention

I don't know why a photo is necessary, because if the name on the
package matches the name on the licence, job done.

????
to prove that it's your licence and not someone else
remember, you are providing proof of age of the named recipient

Which a non-photo licence does. You match the name/address on the parcel
with the name/address on the licence.

Post by tim...
not just that you are the named recipient

I don't need to prove *my* age, just that of the person who ordered it.

What they want to know is the age of the person they're handing it to.
They don't care whether the person signing for it is the customer.

I could be a burglar.

Royal Mail are certainly indemnified against that possibilty, provided
said burglar is at the correct address. I don't know if other couriers
have the same privileges - but since theirs are contractual I expect
they do. Having had an Apple product delivered to me it was clear that
they had their own contract with the courier, and much more strict
identification was done. I expect that oost more then the usual
routine of accepting any signature. Equally, wine from a wine club is
delivered to me without an ID check, but the wine society knows who I
am. Whether this remains legal I really don't know.

[d***@gmail.com]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by Roland Perry

Post by tim...

Post by Roland Perry

Post by tim...

Post by Roland Perry

Post by d***@gmail.com
A passport
A European Union (photocard) driving licence

Oops, that's going to be a bit awkward post-Brexit. But also
disenfranchises those who still have paper licences.

as they don't have a photo on, surely that's the intention

I don't know why a photo is necessary, because if the name on the
package matches the name on the licence, job done.

????
to prove that it's your licence and not someone else
remember, you are providing proof of age of the named recipient

Which a non-photo licence does. You match the name/address on the parcel
with the name/address on the licence.

Post by tim...
not just that you are the named recipient

I don't need to prove *my* age, just that of the person who ordered it.

What they want to know is the age of the person they're handing it to.
They don't care whether the person signing for it is the customer.

I could be a burglar.

Yes, or just another member of the household or a neighbour who is signing for the parcel. As long as you have (your own) photo ID and are of age, no problem.

[Roland Perry]

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by Roland Perry

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by Roland Perry

Post by tim...

Post by Roland Perry

Post by tim...

Post by Roland Perry

Post by d***@gmail.com
A passport
A European Union (photocard) driving licence

Oops, that's going to be a bit awkward post-Brexit. But also
disenfranchises those who still have paper licences.

as they don't have a photo on, surely that's the intention

I don't know why a photo is necessary, because if the name on the
package matches the name on the licence, job done.

????
to prove that it's your licence and not someone else
remember, you are providing proof of age of the named recipient

Which a non-photo licence does. You match the name/address on the parcel
with the name/address on the licence.

Post by tim...
not just that you are the named recipient

I don't need to prove *my* age, just that of the person who ordered it.

What they want to know is the age of the person they're handing it to.
They don't care whether the person signing for it is the customer.

I could be a burglar.

Yes, or just another member of the household or a neighbour who is signing for
the parcel. As long as you have (your own) photo ID and are of age, no problem.

We keep drifting away from the idea that it's the purchaser who should
be age-checked, not the doorman.

[tim...]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by tim...

Post by Roland Perry

Post by tim...

Post by Roland Perry

Post by d***@gmail.com
A passport
A European Union (photocard) driving licence

Oops, that's going to be a bit awkward post-Brexit. But also
disenfranchises those who still have paper licences.

as they don't have a photo on, surely that's the intention

I don't know why a photo is necessary, because if the name on the
package matches the name on the licence, job done.

????
to prove that it's your licence and not someone else
remember, you are providing proof of age of the named recipient

Which a non-photo licence does. You match the name/address on the parcel
with the name/address on the licence.

no

it doesn't prove that the person standing in front of you is the person
named on the licence

Post by Roland Perry

Post by tim...
not just that you are the named recipient

I don't need to prove *my* age, just that of the person who ordered it.

that theory falls down when supermarket staff (sometimes) refuse to sell
alcohol to adults when accompanied by their children

tim

[Roland Perry]

Post by tim...

Post by Roland Perry

Post by tim...

Post by Roland Perry

Post by tim...

Post by Roland Perry

Post by d***@gmail.com
A passport
A European Union (photocard) driving licence

Oops, that's going to be a bit awkward post-Brexit. But also
disenfranchises those who still have paper licences.

as they don't have a photo on, surely that's the intention

I don't know why a photo is necessary, because if the name on the
package matches the name on the licence, job done.

????
to prove that it's your licence and not someone else
remember, you are providing proof of age of the named recipient

Which a non-photo licence does. You match the name/address on the
parcel with the name/address on the licence.

no
it doesn't prove that the person standing in front of you is the person
named on the licence

The item isn't being delivered to the doorman, but to the named
recipient.

Post by tim...

Post by Roland Perry

Post by tim...
not just that you are the named recipient

I don't need to prove *my* age, just that of the person who ordered it.

that theory falls down when supermarket staff (sometimes) refuse to
sell alcohol to adults when accompanied by their children

I've never seen it when there's that much of an age difference. More
when it's an older "brother" doing the buying.

Also happens with age-rated things like DVDs.

[s***@gowanhill.com]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by d***@gmail.com
A biometric immigration document (issued by The Home Office to
individuals going through different stages of the immigration process
as a residence permit.)

Do these actually exist?

https://www.gov.uk/biometric-residence-permits

Post by Roland Perry
Sounds to me like something they were trying to
use as a pilot for the now-failed UK ID card scheme.

Possibly, but foreigners are in less position to object (they tend not to be electors).

Owain

[Roland Perry]

Post by s***@gowanhill.com

Post by Roland Perry

Post by d***@gmail.com
A biometric immigration document (issued by The Home Office to
individuals going through different stages of the immigration process
as a residence permit.)

Do these actually exist?

https://www.gov.uk/biometric-residence-permits

Thanks. I've never seen that before.

Post by s***@gowanhill.com

Post by Roland Perry
Sounds to me like something they were trying to
use as a pilot for the now-failed UK ID card scheme.

Possibly, but foreigners are in less position to object (they tend not to be electors).

The fee (£69) is reminiscent of the ID card scheme.

[Wm]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by s***@gowanhill.com

Post by Roland Perry

Post by d***@gmail.com
A biometric immigration document (issued by The Home Office to
individuals going through different stages of the immigration process
as a residence permit.)

Do these actually exist?

https://www.gov.uk/biometric-residence-permits

Thanks. I've never seen that before.

Probably because you can't apply for one. I'm not sure I can either but
I *might* be able to, will have a look in more detail tomorrow.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by s***@gowanhill.com

Post by Roland Perry
Sounds to me like something they were trying to
use as a pilot for the now-failed UK ID card scheme.

Possibly, but foreigners are in less position to object (they tend not to be electors).

The fee (£69) is reminiscent of the ID card scheme.

The price seems OK to me until someone gets around to issuing ID cards
(I don't have a problem with them, they're a damn side more convenient
than a passport in your pocket).

[Roland Perry]

Post by Wm

Post by Roland Perry

Post by s***@gowanhill.com

Post by Roland Perry

Post by d***@gmail.com
A biometric immigration document (issued by The Home Office to
individuals going through different stages of the immigration process
as a residence permit.)

Do these actually exist?

https://www.gov.uk/biometric-residence-permits

Thanks. I've never seen that before.

Probably because you can't apply for one. I'm not sure I can either
but I *might* be able to, will have a look in more detail tomorrow.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by s***@gowanhill.com

Post by Roland Perry
Sounds to me like something they were trying to
use as a pilot for the now-failed UK ID card scheme.

Possibly, but foreigners are in less position to object (they tend
not to be electors).

The fee (£69) is reminiscent of the ID card scheme.

The price seems OK to me

One reason for looking at the price is to discuss if it's indicative of
the possible cost to local authorities of issuing a "free" voter-ID card
to people without passports or driving licences.

Post by Wm
until someone gets around to issuing ID cards (I don't have a problem
with them, they're a damn side more convenient than a passport in your
pocket).

As a bearer instrument I agree that it's more convenient to carry than
the main page of your passport. Much like a driving licence.

But then we need to consider what happens about the 'counterpart' in DL
land, or the 'Visa pages' in a passport. That information is necessary
in some circumstances, just like you car's numberplate is merely a
pointer to records held in Swansea which reflect the contents of the V5,
and nowadays the status of MOT and insurance.

It's the central storage of that collateral information (pertaining to
an ID) which people object to.

[Wm]

On 24/10/2019 06:34, Roland Perry wrote:

[this may need a new thread]
[no snips below, everything seems relevant]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by s***@gowanhill.com

Post by Roland Perry

Post by d***@gmail.com
A biometric immigration document (issued by The Home Office to
individuals going through different stages of the immigration process
as a residence permit.)

Do these actually exist?

https://www.gov.uk/biometric-residence-permits

 Thanks. I've never seen that before.

Probably because you can't apply for one.  I'm not sure I can either
but I *might* be able to, will have a look in more detail tomorrow.

Post by s***@gowanhill.com

Post by Roland Perry
Sounds to me like something they were trying to
use as a pilot for the now-failed UK ID card scheme.

Possibly, but foreigners are in less position to object (they tend
not  to be electors).

 The fee (£69) is reminiscent of the ID card scheme.

The price seems OK to me

One reason for looking at the price is to discuss if it's indicative of
the possible cost to local authorities of issuing a "free" voter-ID card
to people without passports or driving licences.

Why would it fall to local authorities rather than government? <--
genuine q. Would a card from my local authority in London be worth more
or less than a card from (say) Cumbria?

Further, I can afford GBP69 at the moment but other people may not. I
think we are both wondering if status, or evidence of status, should be
paid for.

Post by Roland Perry

until someone gets around to issuing ID cards (I don't have a problem
with them, they're a damn side more convenient than a passport in
your pocket).

As a bearer instrument I agree that it's more convenient to carry than
the main page of your passport. Much like a driving licence.

Driving license as a proxy for ID is (I think) inherited from the USA
and stupid, don't encourage that any more than USA Social Security
numbers and UK NI numbers as similar proxies, please.

Post by Roland Perry
But then we need to consider what happens about the 'counterpart' in DL
land, or the 'Visa pages' in a passport. That information is necessary
in some circumstances, just like you car's numberplate is merely a
pointer to records held in Swansea which reflect the contents of the V5,
and nowadays the status of MOT and insurance.
It's the central storage of that collateral information (pertaining to
an ID) which people object to.

I'm not too bothered about my rather complicated Home Office record of
protest against the south african apartheid era government being
recorded on my ID card. I've no idea if anyone wants to even do that.

It would be useful if I had an ID card and it showed my status so I
could show it to other people when necessary.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Wm
[this may need a new thread]
[no snips below, everything seems relevant]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by s***@gowanhill.com

Post by Roland Perry

Post by d***@gmail.com
A biometric immigration document (issued by The Home Office to
individuals going through different stages of the immigration process
as a residence permit.)

Do these actually exist?

https://www.gov.uk/biometric-residence-permits

 Thanks. I've never seen that before.

Probably because you can't apply for one.  I'm not sure I can either
but I *might* be able to, will have a look in more detail tomorrow.

Post by s***@gowanhill.com

Post by Roland Perry
Sounds to me like something they were trying to
use as a pilot for the now-failed UK ID card scheme.

Possibly, but foreigners are in less position to object (they tend
not  to be electors).

 The fee (£69) is reminiscent of the ID card scheme.

The price seems OK to me

One reason for looking at the price is to discuss if it's indicative
of the possible cost to local authorities of issuing a "free"
voter-ID card to people without passports or driving licences.

Why would it fall to local authorities rather than government? <--
genuine q. Would a card from my local authority in London be worth
more or less than a card from (say) Cumbria?

As it's proposed to be a card to allow you to vote in elections
administered by the local authority, it makes a lot of sense to combine
their issue with the other activities of the Electoral Registration
people. And especially if there's a need for at least some of the
applicants to visit the office to be verified.

Post by Wm
Further, I can afford GBP69 at the moment but other people may not. I
think we are both wondering if status, or evidence of status, should be
paid for.

AIUI, the electoral card is proposed to be "free". What I'm just as
interested in is the *cost* of issuing them. Especially when doubt was
cast in earlier postings here that it could possibly cost £20m across
the country.

Post by Wm

Post by Roland Perry

until someone gets around to issuing ID cards (I don't have a
problem with them, they're a damn side more convenient than a
passport in your pocket).

As a bearer instrument I agree that it's more convenient to carry
than the main page of your passport. Much like a driving licence.

Driving license as a proxy for ID is (I think) inherited from the USA
and stupid, don't encourage that any more than USA Social Security
numbers and UK NI numbers as similar proxies, please.

I'm not encouraging its use as ID. The comment was about whether a card
has *everything* printed on it, or whether there's a back-office
database too. For card driving licences that's the points, obviously.

Post by Wm

Post by Roland Perry
But then we need to consider what happens about the 'counterpart' in
DL land, or the 'Visa pages' in a passport. That information is
necessary in some circumstances, just like you car's numberplate is
merely a pointer to records held in Swansea which reflect the
contents of the V5, and nowadays the status of MOT and insurance.
It's the central storage of that collateral information (pertaining
to an ID) which people object to.

I'm not too bothered about my rather complicated Home Office record of
protest against the south african apartheid era government being
recorded on my ID card. I've no idea if anyone wants to even do that.

Some people *are* bothered about the data the former ID card scheme was
apparently going to collect and store centrally.

Post by Wm
It would be useful if I had an ID card and it showed my status so I
could show it to other people when necessary.

Where this breaks down is if your "status" isn't exhaustively expressed
by what's printed on the card. Which could be a result of the status
having so many potential components there simply isn't room, let alone
how you cope with rolling changes in the status.

Even a simple photo driving licence "I'm allowed to drive the following
vehicles". Oh no you aren't, because you were given a two year ban last
week".

[Jethro_uk]

Post by Roland Perry
2019,

[quoted text muted]

As it's proposed to be a card to allow you to vote in elections
administered by the local authority, it makes a lot of sense

I think you can already see any flaws in your point of view :)

[Wm]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Wm
Why would it fall to local authorities rather than government? <--
genuine q.  Would a card from my local authority in London be worth
more or less than a card from (say) Cumbria?

As it's proposed to be a card to allow you to vote in elections
administered by the local authority,

If you are right it is just another bit of ID that will or won't be
trusted by one agency or another.

Post by Roland Perry
it makes a lot of sense to combine
their issue with the other activities of the Electoral Registration
people. And especially if there's a need for at least some of the
applicants to visit the office to be verified.

OK, I'm genuinely confused by your reply.

My right to vote [1] is absolute unless I behave very badly and get
imprisoned.

I believe I can vote in more than one place so long as I don't cheat and
vote multiple times, this may be through a postal vote or proxy vote.
I've always managed to get to the polling station so far and haven't
tried multiple registrations.

And so on for general principals.

I'm tired of being verified over and over again. I've had to do it for
UC, Council Tax, ZA passport people, repetition worthy of the Duracell
bunny advert.

All because someone couldn't be arsed to form a good, non prejudicial UK
ID system.

[1] I am not a person that claims rights I don't have

[Roland Perry]

Post by Wm

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Wm
Why would it fall to local authorities rather than government? <--
genuine q.  Would a card from my local authority in London be worth
more or less than a card from (say) Cumbria?

As it's proposed to be a card to allow you to vote in elections
administered by the local authority,

If you are right it is just another bit of ID that will or won't be
trusted

It only needs to be trusted by the polling station staff. Hence why it
might have added credibility if issued by the LA department they report
to.

Post by Wm
by one agency or another.

But it qualifies as "Government Issued photo ID", so many other
organisations will have to accept it by default.

Post by Wm

Post by Roland Perry
it makes a lot of sense to combine their issue with the other
activities of the Electoral Registration people. And especially if
there's a need for at least some of the applicants to visit the
office to be verified.

OK, I'm genuinely confused by your reply.
My right to vote [1] is absolute unless I behave very badly and get
imprisoned.

The proposition is that people will need ID in future. Whether I'm for
or against that, I'm simply tying to explore how it might work.

Post by Wm
I believe I can vote in more than one place so long as I don't cheat
and vote multiple times, this may be through a postal vote or proxy
vote. I've always managed to get to the polling station so far and
haven't tried multiple registrations.
And so on for general principals.
I'm tired of being verified over and over again. I've had to do it for
UC, Council Tax, ZA passport people, repetition worthy of the Duracell
bunny advert.
All because someone couldn't be arsed to form a good, non prejudicial
UK ID system.

That's a passport, isn't it?

[Adam Funk]

Post by Wm
[this may need a new thread]
[no snips below, everything seems relevant]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by s***@gowanhill.com

Post by Roland Perry

Post by d***@gmail.com
A biometric immigration document (issued by The Home Office to
individuals going through different stages of the immigration process
as a residence permit.)

Do these actually exist?

https://www.gov.uk/biometric-residence-permits

 Thanks. I've never seen that before.

Probably because you can't apply for one.  I'm not sure I can either
but I *might* be able to, will have a look in more detail tomorrow.

Post by s***@gowanhill.com

Post by Roland Perry
Sounds to me like something they were trying to
use as a pilot for the now-failed UK ID card scheme.

Possibly, but foreigners are in less position to object (they tend
not  to be electors).

 The fee (£69) is reminiscent of the ID card scheme.

The price seems OK to me

One reason for looking at the price is to discuss if it's indicative of
the possible cost to local authorities of issuing a "free" voter-ID card
to people without passports or driving licences.

Why would it fall to local authorities rather than government? <--
genuine q. Would a card from my local authority in London be worth more
or less than a card from (say) Cumbria?
Further, I can afford GBP69 at the moment but other people may not. I
think we are both wondering if status, or evidence of status, should be
paid for.

Post by Roland Perry

until someone gets around to issuing ID cards (I don't have a problem
with them, they're a damn side more convenient than a passport in
your pocket).

As a bearer instrument I agree that it's more convenient to carry than
the main page of your passport. Much like a driving licence.

Driving license as a proxy for ID is (I think) inherited from the USA
and stupid, don't encourage that any more than USA Social Security
numbers and UK NI numbers as similar proxies, please.

Post by Roland Perry
But then we need to consider what happens about the 'counterpart' in DL
land, or the 'Visa pages' in a passport. That information is necessary
in some circumstances, just like you car's numberplate is merely a
pointer to records held in Swansea which reflect the contents of the V5,
and nowadays the status of MOT and insurance.
It's the central storage of that collateral information (pertaining to
an ID) which people object to.

I'm not too bothered about my rather complicated Home Office record of
protest against the south african apartheid era government being
recorded on my ID card. I've no idea if anyone wants to even do that.

Don't forget that even if you trust the present gov't, you don't know
how future ones may wish to misuse the data. Bear in mind that the UK
had an apartheid-friendly government not too long ago.

Post by Wm
It would be useful if I had an ID card and it showed my status so I
could show it to other people when necessary.

[Wm]

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Wm
I'm not too bothered about my rather complicated Home Office record of
protest against the south african apartheid era government being
recorded on my ID card. I've no idea if anyone wants to even do that.

Don't forget that even if you trust the present gov't, you don't know
how future ones may wish to misuse the data. Bear in mind that the UK
had an apartheid-friendly government not too long ago.

I'm a depressive person so not too long ago can be a short time.

Having said that, Mr Funk, I think I should point out the supra
government (aka the civil service) rather than the elected governments
of the continuum of silliness have not found reason to send me away, yet.

If Mr Adam disagrees with the UK government, I'm still applying for a
passport eventually because of my mother, etc.

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Wm
It would be useful if I had an ID card and it showed my status so I
could show it to other people when necessary.

Yeah, I know, I say really stupid things some times ... but I do that
for the benefit of other people, it is the sort of family and society I
come from ... why am I lost in all this legal mess ... help, etc :)

[Adam Funk]

Post by Wm

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Wm
I'm not too bothered about my rather complicated Home Office record of
protest against the south african apartheid era government being
recorded on my ID card. I've no idea if anyone wants to even do that.

Don't forget that even if you trust the present gov't, you don't know
how future ones may wish to misuse the data. Bear in mind that the UK
had an apartheid-friendly government not too long ago.

I'm a depressive person so not too long ago can be a short time.
Having said that, Mr Funk, I think I should point out the supra
government (aka the civil service) rather than the elected governments
of the continuum of silliness have not found reason to send me away, yet.

I hope that continues for you. But the stuff I keep seeing in the
news (inhumane treatment of families, letter rejecting applications
with obvious C&P errors mentioning the wrong countries, &c.) indicates
that politicians have succeeded in permeating at least some of the
Home Office staff with their filthy hostility towards foreigners.

Post by Wm
If Mr Adam disagrees with the UK government, I'm still applying for a
passport eventually because of my mother, etc.

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Wm
It would be useful if I had an ID card and it showed my status so I
could show it to other people when necessary.

Yeah, I know, I say really stupid things some times ... but I do that
for the benefit of other people, it is the sort of family and society I
come from ... why am I lost in all this legal mess ... help, etc :)

[Wm]

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Wm

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Wm
I'm not too bothered about my rather complicated Home Office record of
protest against the south african apartheid era government being
recorded on my ID card. I've no idea if anyone wants to even do that.

Don't forget that even if you trust the present gov't, you don't know
how future ones may wish to misuse the data. Bear in mind that the UK
had an apartheid-friendly government not too long ago.

I'm a depressive person so not too long ago can be a short time.
Having said that, Mr Funk, I think I should point out the supra
government (aka the civil service) rather than the elected governments
of the continuum of silliness have not found reason to send me away, yet.

I hope that continues for you. But the stuff I keep seeing in the
news (inhumane treatment of families, letter rejecting applications
with obvious C&P errors mentioning the wrong countries, &c.) indicates
that politicians have succeeded in permeating at least some of the
Home Office staff with their filthy hostility towards foreigners.

Just for clarity, I don't think the Home Office are bad. It is *us*
choosing governments that is rubbish. There is an enormous lag because
people's details and facts and fictions need to be checked. Changing
from Cons to Lab or some co-coalition isn't going to change whether good
or bad people get to join society or not and the parties in parliament
may have changed by the time anything gets done.

[Adam Funk]

Post by Wm

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Wm

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Wm
I'm not too bothered about my rather complicated Home Office record of
protest against the south african apartheid era government being
recorded on my ID card. I've no idea if anyone wants to even do that.

Don't forget that even if you trust the present gov't, you don't know
how future ones may wish to misuse the data. Bear in mind that the UK
had an apartheid-friendly government not too long ago.

I'm a depressive person so not too long ago can be a short time.
Having said that, Mr Funk, I think I should point out the supra
government (aka the civil service) rather than the elected governments
of the continuum of silliness have not found reason to send me away, yet.

I hope that continues for you. But the stuff I keep seeing in the
news (inhumane treatment of families, letter rejecting applications
with obvious C&P errors mentioning the wrong countries, &c.) indicates
that politicians have succeeded in permeating at least some of the
Home Office staff with their filthy hostility towards foreigners.

Just for clarity, I don't think the Home Office are bad. It is *us*
choosing governments that is rubbish. There is an enormous lag because
people's details and facts and fictions need to be checked. Changing
from Cons to Lab or some co-coalition isn't going to change whether good
or bad people get to join society or not and the parties in parliament
may have changed by the time anything gets done.

FSVO "us", as I said when I commented that exempting immigration
officials from racial discrimination laws is based on the idea that
"we" pay them to be racist on "our" behalf.

[tim...]

Post by Roland Perry
The fee (£69) is reminiscent of the ID card scheme.

The price seems OK to me until someone gets around to issuing ID cards (I
don't have a problem with them, they're a damn side more convenient than a
passport in your pocket).

The problem with paying (more than a nominal fee) for ID cards was that:

HMG justified the cards on the basis of all the benefits it as going to give
*them*

and then turned around and said

but you are going to have to directly pay for it

tim

[Adam Funk]

Post by s***@gowanhill.com

Post by Roland Perry

Post by d***@gmail.com
A biometric immigration document (issued by The Home Office to
individuals going through different stages of the immigration process
as a residence permit.)

Do these actually exist?

https://www.gov.uk/biometric-residence-permits

Post by Roland Perry
Sounds to me like something they were trying to
use as a pilot for the now-failed UK ID card scheme.

Possibly, but foreigners are in less position to object (they tend not to be electors).

Yup, the perfect targets for politicians to kick around in order to
manipulate the gullible section of the electorate.

[Wm]

Post by Adam Funk

Post by s***@gowanhill.com

Post by Roland Perry

Post by d***@gmail.com
A biometric immigration document (issued by The Home Office to
individuals going through different stages of the immigration process
as a residence permit.)

Do these actually exist?

https://www.gov.uk/biometric-residence-permits

Post by Roland Perry
Sounds to me like something they were trying to
use as a pilot for the now-failed UK ID card scheme.

Possibly, but foreigners are in less position to object (they tend not to be electors).

Yup, the perfect targets for politicians to kick around in order to
manipulate the gullible section of the electorate.

Ummm, are the "liberal elite" who already have passports and driving
licences and other forms of ID objecting to the peasants being
identified as citizens?

That is sort of loaded talk but I think AdamF will understand what I mean.

[Adam Funk]

Post by Wm

Post by Adam Funk

Post by s***@gowanhill.com

Post by Roland Perry

Post by d***@gmail.com
A biometric immigration document (issued by The Home Office to
individuals going through different stages of the immigration process
as a residence permit.)

Do these actually exist?

https://www.gov.uk/biometric-residence-permits

Post by Roland Perry
Sounds to me like something they were trying to
use as a pilot for the now-failed UK ID card scheme.

Possibly, but foreigners are in less position to object (they tend not to be electors).

Yup, the perfect targets for politicians to kick around in order to
manipulate the gullible section of the electorate.

Ummm, are the "liberal elite" who already have passports and driving
licences and other forms of ID objecting to the peasants being
identified as citizens?
That is sort of loaded talk but I think AdamF will understand what I mean.

Actually I'm not sure what you mean!

[Brian]

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by The Todal
Is this a new thing, for UK customers, perhaps after other countries
have already implemented this silly rule? There must be customers who
possess neither a passport nor a driving licence.

"Valid photographic ID and a signature of the recipient will be required upon delivery for all customers."

Which is all very well, no doubt, but falls down when the gorilla
courier used as the final leg fails to implement the policy.

Anecdata perhaps, but I recently had a bottle of alcohol delivered by
(though not ordered from) Amazon. It was left in my garden.

Apparently, I signed for the delivery. Shame I was out of the
country at the time. To say that Amazon are completely indifferent to
this situation would be an understatement.

Remove 2001. to reply by email. I apologise for the inconvenience.

[The Todal]

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by The Todal
Is this a new thing, for UK customers, perhaps after other countries
have already implemented this silly rule? There must be customers who
possess neither a passport nor a driving licence.

"Valid photographic ID and a signature of the recipient will be required upon delivery for all customers."

That's fine, but I don't look underage and if the policy is to require
proof of age irrespective of your appearance it certainly seems to be a
new policy in my experience. I really was very tempted to refuse to
produce my proof of age and to let them take the bottle of whisky back
to the depot. It would have cost me nothing to make this gesture of
disapproval.

[d***@gmail.com]

Post by The Todal

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by The Todal
Is this a new thing, for UK customers, perhaps after other countries
have already implemented this silly rule? There must be customers who
possess neither a passport nor a driving licence.

"Valid photographic ID and a signature of the recipient will be required upon delivery for all customers."

That's fine, but I don't look underage and if the policy is to require
proof of age irrespective of your appearance it certainly seems to be a
new policy in my experience. I really was very tempted to refuse to
produce my proof of age and to let them take the bottle of whisky back
to the depot. It would have cost me nothing to make this gesture of
disapproval.

At the other end of the scale are the wine clubs who will happily leave deliveries in your nominated safe place without seeing anybody or their ID.

[Adam Funk]

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by The Todal

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by The Todal
Is this a new thing, for UK customers, perhaps after other countries
have already implemented this silly rule? There must be customers who
possess neither a passport nor a driving licence.

"Valid photographic ID and a signature of the recipient will be required upon delivery for all customers."

That's fine, but I don't look underage and if the policy is to require
proof of age irrespective of your appearance it certainly seems to be a
new policy in my experience. I really was very tempted to refuse to
produce my proof of age and to let them take the bottle of whisky back
to the depot. It would have cost me nothing to make this gesture of
disapproval.

At the other end of the scale are the wine clubs who will happily
leave deliveries in your nominated safe place without seeing
anybody or their ID.

Different sort of customer, what?

I can't find the exact quote now, but a character in a Thurber story
said it was safe to leave wine but not whiskey in your summer house
when you close it for the winter, because the kind of people who might
break in wouldn't drink the wine.

[R. Mark Clayton]

Post by The Todal
An Amazon delivery man today asked me for proof of my age so that he
could deliver a package containing alcohol.
I certainly don't look under 18. I would be flattered if it was said
that I look to be under 50.
He said that he would need to see a driving licence or passport, or he
wouldn't be able to deliver the item. I asked if other customers were
refusing to produce proof of age and the items were being returned to
Amazon and he said yes, that has been happening.
Is this a new thing, for UK customers, perhaps after other countries
have already implemented this silly rule? There must be customers who
possess neither a passport nor a driving licence.

OAP's mostly.