Carrying lockpicks in public

[Simon Finnigan]

Hi everyone,
I`m thinking about learning how to pick locks - not for any criminal
activity, but because I`ve got a few friends who are always losing keys, and
it`d come in very useful at work when they do lose their keys :-) I`m not
really interested in any ethical discussion - I won`t be doing anything I`d
consider unethical, only the legal side of things. Yes a set of lock picks
can be used for criminal activity, but they can also be used for legitimate
purposes. Does anyone know if I where stopped and searched by the police,
who then found the picks, how much trouble (if any) would I be in?

Thanks for your help!

[Palindr☻me]

Post by Simon Finnigan
Hi everyone,
I`m thinking about learning how to pick locks - not for any criminal
activity, but because I`ve got a few friends who are always losing keys, and
it`d come in very useful at work when they do lose their keys :-) I`m not
really interested in any ethical discussion - I won`t be doing anything I`d
consider unethical, only the legal side of things. Yes a set of lock picks
can be used for criminal activity, but they can also be used for legitimate
purposes. Does anyone know if I where stopped and searched by the police,
who then found the picks, how much trouble (if any) would I be in?

If you could show that you had a legitimate reason for having them on
your person, at that time and in that place, then I wouldn't imagine
that you would be in any trouble at all. Arguing that you were carrying
them around on the off-chance that a friend might lose their keys seems
a little thin, so you might want to leave them at home until the actual
proven need arises.

Locks have fascinated me too, from a very early age. Whilst sets of lock
picks are on sale to the general public and I don't think it is an
offence to own them (IANAL), you may also find that a set of more common
tools (including a set of very high quality watchmakers screwdrivers,
very flexible steel rule, tiny kataba sawblade, etc) can open just about
anything that lockpicks can, plus quite a lot more. Even so, having them
in your toolbox in the car may be no worries, but perhaps carried in the
hand in the backgarden of a neighbour's house - looking for the cat, of
course - may be a credulity stretched too far.

[Peter Ramm]

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 20:45:11 +0000, "Simon Finnigan"

Post by Simon Finnigan
Hi everyone,
I`m thinking about learning how to pick locks

How are you going to learn?
Have you seen: http://home.howstuffworks.com/lock-picking.htm

[Dr Zoidberg]

Post by Simon Finnigan
Hi everyone,
I`m thinking about learning how to pick locks - not for any criminal
activity, but because I`ve got a few friends who are always losing
keys, and it`d come in very useful at work when they do lose their
keys :-) I`m not really interested in any ethical discussion - I
won`t be doing anything I`d consider unethical, only the legal side
of things. Yes a set of lock picks can be used for criminal
activity, but they can also be used for legitimate purposes. Does
anyone know if I where stopped and searched by the police, who then
found the picks, how much trouble (if any) would I be in?

You would probably be arrested for "Going equipped...." and would have to
persuade the police/court that you had no dishonest intent.

All very well and good if you are driving a van with "S. Finnigan ,
locksmith" on the side , but considerably harder to do if your only reason
is as above

[Frank Erskine]

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 21:30:15 +0000, "Dr Zoidberg"

Post by Dr Zoidberg

Post by Simon Finnigan
Hi everyone,
I`m thinking about learning how to pick locks - not for any criminal
activity, but because I`ve got a few friends who are always losing
keys, and it`d come in very useful at work when they do lose their
keys :-) I`m not really interested in any ethical discussion - I
won`t be doing anything I`d consider unethical, only the legal side
of things. Yes a set of lock picks can be used for criminal
activity, but they can also be used for legitimate purposes. Does
anyone know if I where stopped and searched by the police, who then
found the picks, how much trouble (if any) would I be in?

You would probably be arrested for "Going equipped...." and would have to
persuade the police/court that you had no dishonest intent.
All very well and good if you are driving a van with "S. Finnigan ,
locksmith" on the side , but considerably harder to do if your only reason
is as above

I'm sorry for you guys. Do you really live in that sort of part of the
country where you have to be careful what you carry about with you?
I'm involved (backstage!) with an amateur theatre and frequently
drive, without any specific purpose, with a toolbox containing
hammers, knives, l-o-n-g screwdrivers, gaffa tape and so on (yes, even
occasionally bunches of keys and fake firearms!) , and have NEVER been
arrested.

[Simon Finnigan]

Post by Frank Erskine
On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 21:30:15 +0000, "Dr Zoidberg"

Post by Dr Zoidberg

Post by Simon Finnigan
Hi everyone,
I`m thinking about learning how to pick locks - not for any criminal
activity, but because I`ve got a few friends who are always losing
keys, and it`d come in very useful at work when they do lose their
keys :-) I`m not really interested in any ethical discussion - I
won`t be doing anything I`d consider unethical, only the legal side
of things. Yes a set of lock picks can be used for criminal
activity, but they can also be used for legitimate purposes. Does
anyone know if I where stopped and searched by the police, who then
found the picks, how much trouble (if any) would I be in?

You would probably be arrested for "Going equipped...." and would have to
persuade the police/court that you had no dishonest intent.
All very well and good if you are driving a van with "S. Finnigan ,
locksmith" on the side , but considerably harder to do if your only reason
is as above

I'm sorry for you guys. Do you really live in that sort of part of the
country where you have to be careful what you carry about with you?
I'm involved (backstage!) with an amateur theatre and frequently
drive, without any specific purpose, with a toolbox containing
hammers, knives, l-o-n-g screwdrivers, gaffa tape and so on (yes, even
occasionally bunches of keys and fake firearms!) , and have NEVER been
arrested.

I`ve not been arrested yet. Come close a few times, but never gone over
that very fine line :-) But I wouldn`t think twice about carrying any of
that stuff apart from the fake firearms - I`d probably do it, but they`d be
well hidden and only for a single journey with a known destination, with
people expecting me. Anything else is asking for trouble - whether that`s
right or not isn`t a good idea to discuss, I can imagine a massive thread
developing very quickly :-)

[SimonJ]

Post by Frank Erskine
I'm sorry for you guys. Do you really live in that sort of part of the
country where you have to be careful what you carry about with you?
I'm involved (backstage!) with an amateur theatre and frequently
drive, without any specific purpose, with a toolbox containing
hammers, knives, l-o-n-g screwdrivers, gaffa tape and so on (yes, even
occasionally bunches of keys and fake firearms!) , and have NEVER been
arrested.

All those items (with the exception of the fake firearms of course!) have
perfectly legitimate uses, and you will not have any problem carrying
those, but a set of lockpicks are solely for breaking into locks, which is
not a (generally) legitimate use.

[Harry The Horse]

Post by Frank Erskine
I'm sorry for you guys. Do you really live in that sort of part of the
country where you have to be careful what you carry about with you?
I'm involved (backstage!) with an amateur theatre and frequently
drive, without any specific purpose, with a toolbox containing
hammers, knives, l-o-n-g screwdrivers, gaffa tape and so on (yes, even
occasionally bunches of keys and fake firearms!) , and have NEVER been
arrested.

And if you were stopped on the way to the theatre and asked to explain
yourself, you'd have good reason for having those things, inlcuding the
replica guns. If you weren't on the way to the theatre, perhaps in a
different part of the country, then you might end up being arrested and
being charged with possession in a public place of an offensive weapon and,
thanks to the 2003 Anti-Social Behaviour Act, a replica firearm in a public
place.

[D.M. Procida]

Post by Simon Finnigan
I`m thinking about learning how to pick locks - not for any criminal
activity, but because I`ve got a few friends who are always losing keys, and
it`d come in very useful at work when they do lose their keys :-) I`m not
really interested in any ethical discussion - I won`t be doing anything I`d
consider unethical, only the legal side of things. Yes a set of lock picks
can be used for criminal activity, but they can also be used for legitimate
purposes. Does anyone know if I where stopped and searched by the police,
who then found the picks, how much trouble (if any) would I be in?

None.

Though when you start practising with your picks, you will be in
trouble. For example, during the last six months of the life of my
girlfriend's Triumph Acclaim we had to get in and out of the car the car
through the passenger-side door.

Daniele

[Periander.]

Post by Simon Finnigan
I`m thinking about learning how to pick locks - not for any criminal
activity, but because I`ve got a few friends who are always losing keys, and
it`d come in very useful at work when they do lose their keys :-) I`m not
really interested in any ethical discussion - I won`t be doing anything I`d
consider unethical, only the legal side of things. Yes a set of lock picks
can be used for criminal activity, but they can also be used for legitimate
purposes. Does anyone know if I where stopped and searched by the police,
who then found the picks, how much trouble (if any) would I be in?

None.

Apart from running the risk of being nicked on suspicion of going equipped
that is.

[D.M. Procida]

Post by Periander.

Post by Simon Finnigan
Does anyone know if I where stopped and searched by the police,
who then found the picks, how much trouble (if any) would I be in?

None.

Apart from running the risk of being nicked on suspicion of going equipped
that is.

Oh really, like the police are going to be able to arrest someone when
they've just wet themselves laughing at him standing in his pyjamas
outside his front door with half a lockpick in one hand and the other
half in the lock while his girlfriend on the other side of the door is
shouting "You're an idiot; I don't know what's the matter with you".

Daniele

[dormouse on NTL]

Post by D.M. Procida

Post by Periander.

Post by Simon Finnigan
Does anyone know if I where stopped and searched by the police,
who then found the picks, how much trouble (if any) would I be in?

None.

Apart from running the risk of being nicked on suspicion of going equipped
that is.

Oh really, like the police are going to be able to arrest someone when
they've just wet themselves laughing at him standing in his pyjamas
outside his front door with half a lockpick in one hand and the other
half in the lock while his girlfriend on the other side of the door is
shouting "You're an idiot; I don't know what's the matter with you".

Hi Danielle,

Your post above appears to have suffered from the amazing non appearing
posts phenomena currently plaguing us all. No show on individual.net ... but
fortunately for us all caught on NTL, wouldn't like you to think you were
being ignored.

Anyway back to the point being discussed, can you show how the contrived
scenario you've described above matches the circumstances described by the
OP. I remind you that S1 doesn't apply to persons on their own property as
it does to those in a public place where they are indeed liable to search.

[D.M. Procida]

[Reposted - just realised the first one I sent doesn't seem to have
appeared, so here it is again. Everyone loves last week's news.]

Post by Periander.

Post by Simon Finnigan
Does anyone know if I where stopped and searched by the police,
who then found the picks, how much trouble (if any) would I be in?

None.

Apart from running the risk of being nicked on suspicion of going equipped
that is.

Oh really, like the police are going to be able to arrest someone when
they've just wet themselves laughing at him standing in his pyjamas
outside his front door with half a lockpick in one hand and the other
half in the lock while his girlfriend on the other side of the door is
shouting "You're an idiot; I don't know what's the matter with you".

Daniele

[Periander.]

Post by D.M. Procida
[Reposted - just realised the first one I sent doesn't seem to have
appeared, so here it is again. Everyone loves last week's news.]

It appeared (and was of course subject to summary judgement it deserved) if
you wish to see what happened the thread can be seen here
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/uk.legal.moderated/browse_thread/thread/692305aa239f28b3/e3fd2143038f5484

Recently there's been a problem or two with messages not making it to
various servers following moderation.

[Tom]

D.M. Procida wrote...

Post by Simon Finnigan
I`m thinking about learning how to pick locks - not for any criminal
activity, but because I`ve got a few friends who are always losing keys, and
it`d come in very useful at work when they do lose their keys :-) I`m not
really interested in any ethical discussion - I won`t be doing anything I`d
consider unethical, only the legal side of things. Yes a set of lock picks
can be used for criminal activity, but they can also be used for legitimate
purposes. Does anyone know if I where stopped and searched by the police,
who then found the picks, how much trouble (if any) would I be in?

None.

Wrong.
It could surely be construed as going equipped, depending on the explanation
provided, and any other tools (or stolen goods) in the holder's possession.

Section 25 Theft Act 1968
Power of Arrest from Schedule 1a of PACE

[Simon Finnigan]

Post by Tom
D.M. Procida wrote...

Post by Simon Finnigan
I`m thinking about learning how to pick locks - not for any criminal
activity, but because I`ve got a few friends who are always losing keys, and
it`d come in very useful at work when they do lose their keys :-) I`m not
really interested in any ethical discussion - I won`t be doing anything I`d
consider unethical, only the legal side of things. Yes a set of lock picks
can be used for criminal activity, but they can also be used for legitimate
purposes. Does anyone know if I where stopped and searched by the police,
who then found the picks, how much trouble (if any) would I be in?

None.

Wrong.
It could surely be construed as going equipped, depending on the explanation
provided, and any other tools (or stolen goods) in the holder's possession.
Section 25 Theft Act 1968
Power of Arrest from Schedule 1a of PACE

That`s what I`m thinking about. There`d never be any stlen goods on me (I
might like a bargain, but I get mine online - knock off gear doesn`t appeal
to me at all, I`d be upset if I was the person who`d been stolen from), but
the real reason for carrying them would be a cross between it being a hobby
(something to work at and practise/get better at, like juggling but without
the depth perception problems I have making that a non-starter) and being
fed up of having problems when keys get lost - lose the keys and at least
you can still get into where you need to go :-).

Anyone think those excuses would be good enough?

[Tom]

Simon Finnigan wrote...

Post by Tom

Post by Tom
D.M. Procida wrote...

Post by Simon Finnigan
I`m thinking about learning how to pick locks - not for any criminal
activity, but because I`ve got a few friends who are always losing keys,

It could surely be construed as going equipped, depending on the

explanation

Post by Tom
provided, and any other tools (or stolen goods) in the holder's

possession.

Post by Tom
Section 25 Theft Act 1968

That`s what I`m thinking about. There`d never be any stlen goods on me (I
might like a bargain, but I get mine online - knock off gear doesn`t appeal
to me at all, I`d be upset if I was the person who`d been stolen from), but
the real reason for carrying them would be a cross between it being a hobby
(something to work at and practise/get better at, like juggling but without
the depth perception problems I have making that a non-starter) and being
fed up of having problems when keys get lost - lose the keys and at least
you can still get into where you need to go :-).
Anyone think those excuses would be good enough?

I think your safest bet would be to not carry them in public, unless you could
rely on someone at the other end of your trip to substantiate your story.

I don't think "I'm practicing how to pick locks" would help you.

[D.M. Procida]

Post by Tom

Does anyone know if I where stopped and searched by the police, who
then found the picks, how much trouble (if any) would I be in?

None.

Wrong.
It could surely be construed as going equipped, depending on the explanation
provided, and any other tools (or stolen goods) in the holder's possession.

Well, if he starts carrying stolen goods around he's going to be in
trouble about the stolen goods, not the picks. Similarly if he wears a
mask and a bag labelled "Swag". However, if the filth decide that he
should turn out his pockets because they thought someone else in the pub
was dealing a bit of smoke and they find his picks that is really very
unlikely to get him arrested.

Daniele

[Periander.]

Post by D.M. Procida

Post by Tom

Does anyone know if I where stopped and searched by the police, who
then found the picks, how much trouble (if any) would I be in?

None.

Wrong.
It could surely be construed as going equipped, depending on the explanation
provided, and any other tools (or stolen goods) in the holder's possession.

Well, if he starts carrying stolen goods around he's going to be in
trouble about the stolen goods, not the picks. Similarly if he wears a
mask and a bag labelled "Swag". However, if the filth

I think I see from above where you're coming from. May I suggest that you
restrict your advice to such topics as niche computers because ...

Post by D.M. Procida
decide that he
should turn out his pockets because they thought someone else in the pub
was dealing a bit of smoke and they find his picks that is really very
unlikely to get him arrested.

... the above is bollox advice. Lock picks unlike many tools have only one
purpose, I doubt any police officer in the country would accept as face
value some excuse along the lines of "I'm an amatur locksmith, I carry these
lock picks around with me to help my friends get in to their houses". Even
if it is subsequently established that he had them for some innocent purpose
it will be several uncomfortable hours in the cells and probably a few
uncertain weeks on bail to boot.

[D.M. Procida]

Lock picks unlike many tools have only one purpose, I doubt any police
officer in the country would accept as face value some excuse along the
lines of "I'm an amatur locksmith, I carry these lock picks around with me
to help my friends get in to their houses". Even if it is subsequently
established that he had them for some innocent purpose it will be several
uncomfortable hours in the cells and probably a few uncertain weeks on
bail to boot.

How many cases are you aware of where someone has been arrested *for
carrying a set of lock-picks*?

Not for carrying a set of lock-picks and trying to get into someone
else's house at 3am, not for carrying a set of lock-picks and
slaughtering a family in their beds, not for carrying a set of
lock-picks and giving the enquring pigs a bit of lip, but *for carrying
a set of lock-picks*.

Daniele

[Periander.]

Post by D.M. Procida

Lock picks unlike many tools have only one purpose, I doubt any police
officer in the country would accept as face value some excuse along the
lines of "I'm an amatur locksmith, I carry these lock picks around with me
to help my friends get in to their houses". Even if it is subsequently
established that he had them for some innocent purpose it will be several
uncomfortable hours in the cells and probably a few uncertain weeks on
bail to boot.

How many cases are you aware of where someone has been arrested *for
carrying a set of lock-picks*?

As it happens I can think of several people of my acquaintance who have been
arrested for being in a public place equipped to steal where the equipment
in question was a device or tools to pick locks (as opposed to merely
forcing them).

Post by D.M. Procida
Not for carrying a set of lock-picks and trying to get into someone
else's house at 3am, not for carrying a set of lock-picks and
slaughtering a family in their beds, not for carrying a set of
lock-picks and giving the enquring pigs a bit of lip, but *for carrying
a set of lock-picks*.

As above.

[Fred]

Post by Periander.
As it happens I can think of several people of my acquaintance who have been
arrested for being in a public place equipped to steal where the equipment
in question was a device or tools to pick locks (as opposed to merely
forcing them).

How many were then charged? I too have a fascination for locks and have
also opened some for friends and colleagues. I use to carry around some
home made tools which I can assure those here were never used for illegal
acts.

[Periander.]

Post by Periander.
As it happens I can think of several people of my acquaintance who have

been

Post by Periander.
arrested for being in a public place equipped to steal where the equipment
in question was a device or tools to pick locks (as opposed to merely
forcing them).

How many were then charged? ...

Most, if not all ... with something. ;-)

[unknown]

Post by Periander.
it will be several uncomfortable hours in the cells and probably a few
uncertain weeks on bail to boot.

For some reason I read the end of that as "balls to boot", probably just
as accurate.

[Simon Finnigan]

Post by unknown

Post by Periander.
it will be several uncomfortable hours in the cells and probably a few
uncertain weeks on bail to boot.

For some reason I read the end of that as "balls to boot", probably just
as accurate.

I just remembered that a friend of a friend is a newly qualified copper.
Certainly a question to ask them :-)

[Tom]

D.M. Procida wrote...

Post by D.M. Procida

Post by Tom

Does anyone know if I where stopped and searched by the police, who
then found the picks, how much trouble (if any) would I be in?

None.

Wrong.
It could surely be construed as going equipped, depending on the explanation
provided, and any other tools (or stolen goods) in the holder's possession.

Well, if he starts carrying stolen goods around he's going to be in
trouble about the stolen goods, not the picks. Similarly if he wears a
mask and a bag labelled "Swag". However, if the filth decide that he
should turn out his pockets because they thought someone else in the pub
was dealing a bit of smoke and they find his picks that is really very
unlikely to get him arrested.

But if they think someone in the pub was dealing in stolen goods, and he's got a
short haircut, a swallow tattoo, a bit of bling, and a pile of cash to go with
his lockpicks, then he's off to pokey.

I'm not saying his explanation won't suffice, but it doesn't look good for the
divisional crime statistics if they let such easy prey get away with it.

[Simon Finnigan]

Post by Tom
D.M. Procida wrote...

Post by D.M. Procida

Post by Tom

Does anyone know if I where stopped and searched by the police, who
then found the picks, how much trouble (if any) would I be in?

None.

Wrong.
It could surely be construed as going equipped, depending on the explanation
provided, and any other tools (or stolen goods) in the holder's possession.

Well, if he starts carrying stolen goods around he's going to be in
trouble about the stolen goods, not the picks. Similarly if he wears a
mask and a bag labelled "Swag". However, if the filth decide that he
should turn out his pockets because they thought someone else in the pub
was dealing a bit of smoke and they find his picks that is really very
unlikely to get him arrested.

But if they think someone in the pub was dealing in stolen goods, and he's got a
short haircut, a swallow tattoo, a bit of bling, and a pile of cash to go with
his lockpicks, then he's off to pokey.
I'm not saying his explanation won't suffice, but it doesn't look good for the
divisional crime statistics if they let such easy prey get away with it.

That`s deffinately not a description of me. 6 foot 2, 16 stone, no bling at
all (think it looks f*cking stupid :-) ) and never enough cash. :-)

[Palindr☻me]

Post by Tom
But if they think someone in the pub was dealing in stolen goods, and he's got a
short haircut, a swallow tattoo, a bit of bling, and a pile of cash to go with
his lockpicks, then he's off to pokey.

I'm being serious, honestly, but is there a particular thing about a
swallow tattoo? It is just that I have had one for many years, not
thinking that there could be some significance.. Not that a policeman
(or policewoman, come to that) in a pub would be likely to notice
it..(blush)

I know about the gurentai and tattoos but hadn't realised that there was
a criminal significance of particular tattoos in the UK..

[Tom]

Palindr☻me wrote...

Post by Palindr☻me

Post by Tom
But if they think someone in the pub was dealing in stolen goods, and he's got a
short haircut, a swallow tattoo, a bit of bling, and a pile of cash to go with
his lockpicks, then he's off to pokey.

I'm being serious, honestly, but is there a particular thing about a
swallow tattoo? It is just that I have had one for many years, not
thinking that there could be some significance.. Not that a policeman
(or policewoman, come to that) in a pub would be likely to notice
it..(blush)

Then I assume it's not on your neck?

I am not sure of the particular meaning of the swallow (on the neck)
I had a quick google, and arrived at this:

http://www.spydersempire.com/forum/poetry/messages14/60832.htm

I think it sums it up.

Apparently, swallows (as with most tattoos) originated with sailors, and it
represents a safe trip home (because swallows always return home). Probably more
relevant to this thread is that it was hijacked by skinheads.

more about swallows here, for Smiths fans...
http://www.morrissey-solo.com/articles/00/12/01/0758223.shtml

[Alasdair Baxter]

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 20:45:11 +0000, "Simon Finnigan"

Post by Simon Finnigan
Hi everyone,
I`m thinking about learning how to pick locks - not for any criminal
activity, but because I`ve got a few friends who are always losing keys, and
it`d come in very useful at work when they do lose their keys :-) I`m not
really interested in any ethical discussion - I won`t be doing anything I`d
consider unethical, only the legal side of things. Yes a set of lock picks
can be used for criminal activity, but they can also be used for legitimate
purposes. Does anyone know if I where stopped and searched by the police,
who then found the picks, how much trouble (if any) would I be in?
Thanks for your help!

Picking locks is not per se illegal but you might get arrested by a
jobsworth copper if he found the picks in your possession and you
could offer no reasonable excuse for having them.

If you are serious about this, I'd suggest setting up a locksmith's
business and have business cards and letterheads printed. You could
show your business card to the copper and he'd likely leave you alone
especially if you showed up clean on a PNC check.

If you learned locksmithing properly, you could earn good money at it
too.
--

Alasdair Baxter, Nottingham, UK.Tel [phone]; Fax [phone]

"It's not what you say that matters but how you say it.
It's not what you do that matters but how you do it"

[Simon Finnigan]

Post by Peter Ramm
On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 20:45:11 +0000, "Simon Finnigan"

Post by Simon Finnigan
Hi everyone,
I`m thinking about learning how to pick locks - not for any criminal
activity, but because I`ve got a few friends who are always losing keys, and
it`d come in very useful at work when they do lose their keys :-) I`m not
really interested in any ethical discussion - I won`t be doing anything I`d
consider unethical, only the legal side of things. Yes a set of lock picks
can be used for criminal activity, but they can also be used for legitimate
purposes. Does anyone know if I where stopped and searched by the police,
who then found the picks, how much trouble (if any) would I be in?
Thanks for your help!

Picking locks is not per se illegal but you might get arrested by a
jobsworth copper if he found the picks in your possession and you
could offer no reasonable excuse for having them.
If you are serious about this, I'd suggest setting up a locksmith's
business and have business cards and letterheads printed. You could
show your business card to the copper and he'd likely leave you alone
especially if you showed up clean on a PNC check.
If you learned locksmithing properly, you could earn good money at it
too.

I suppose I could set-up a company, but it seems excessive to do so when I`d
have no intention of taking it up seriously. As stupid as it sounds, it
just strikes me as an interesting skill to have. I`m also not sure I`d be
wanting to get so into it that safe-opening and the like is something I can
do. I suppose it`d be an interesting job, but not sure it`s the one for me.

[Chas]

Post by Simon Finnigan
I suppose I could set-up a company, but it seems excessive to do so when I`d
have no intention of taking it up seriously. As stupid as it sounds, it
just strikes me as an interesting skill to have. I`m also not sure I`d be
wanting to get so into it that safe-opening and the like is something I can
do. I suppose it`d be an interesting job, but not sure it`s the one for me.
--

It most certainly is an "interesting" skill to have, but please don't
confuse the world of TV with the real one we live in. Even the most skilled
& talented locksmith will invariably gain entry by drilling out the old lock
and fitting a new one.

If you have a romantic vision of "picking" locks with nothing more than a
bent paperclip or an assortment of old dentists (the TV toolkit) probes
then ask yourself why do locksmith's drive around in vans the size of
houses?

You would do well to pop in to your local locksmith's and ask them which of
the locks they stock could they 'pick' using all their skill & experience in
under 30mins. This would either be a very bad advert for their prowess as so
called locksmith's or cast doubt on the true level of security your average
lock provides.

Part of my job involves gaining access to locked vehicles, no vehicle has
yet failed me and I can do this (on average) within 5mins. Even the most
secure vehicle can be accessed and several "very secure" vehicles that I
have previous experience of now take me less than 5 secs. The tools &
equipment I use are common, everyday tools and the most used is classed as
the simplest tool known to man.


Chas.

[Steve Walker]

Post by Chas
Part of my job involves gaining access to locked vehicles, no
vehicle has yet failed me and I can do this (on average) within
5mins. Even the most secure vehicle can be accessed and several
"very secure" vehicles that I have previous experience of now
take me less than 5 secs. The tools & equipment I use are common,
everyday tools and the most used is classed as the simplest tool
known to man.

Ooooh, I know this one - is it an.... Angle Grinder?

[Nick Maclaren]

Post by Steve Walker

Post by Chas
Part of my job involves gaining access to locked vehicles, no
vehicle has yet failed me and I can do this (on average) within
5mins. Even the most secure vehicle can be accessed and several
"very secure" vehicles that I have previous experience of now
take me less than 5 secs. The tools & equipment I use are common,
everyday tools and the most used is classed as the simplest tool
known to man.

Ooooh, I know this one - is it an.... Angle Grinder?

No - a club hammer I assume.

Actually, it's not the simplest tool, which is either a digging
stick or a hand hammer (i.e. a suitable rock), but the latter would
do at a pinch. Ouch!


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

[Palindr☻me]

Post by Nick Maclaren

Post by Steve Walker

Post by Chas
Part of my job involves gaining access to locked vehicles, no
vehicle has yet failed me and I can do this (on average) within
5mins. Even the most secure vehicle can be accessed and several
"very secure" vehicles that I have previous experience of now
take me less than 5 secs. The tools & equipment I use are common,
everyday tools and the most used is classed as the simplest tool
known to man.

Ooooh, I know this one - is it an.... Angle Grinder?

No - a club hammer I assume.
Actually, it's not the simplest tool, which is either a digging
stick or a hand hammer (i.e. a suitable rock), but the latter would
do at a pinch. Ouch!

Many years ago, when I was at Uni, I lost my keys to my cycle padlock
and asked a lab technician for a hacksaw. He offered to remove the lock
for me and did so in seconds. That was using a hammer*.

[Chas]

Post by Nick Maclaren
No - a club hammer I assume.
Actually, it's not the simplest tool, which is either a digging
stick or a hand hammer (i.e. a suitable rock), but the latter would
do at a pinch. Ouch!

Try a Google on "the simplest tool known to man", the 2nd listing sums it up
nicely.

[zaax]

Post by Steve Walker

Post by Chas
Part of my job involves gaining access to locked vehicles, no
vehicle has yet failed me and I can do this (on average) within
5mins. Even the most secure vehicle can be accessed and several
"very secure" vehicles that I have previous experience of now
take me less than 5 secs. The tools & equipment I use are common,
everyday tools and the most used is classed as the simplest tool
known to man.

Ooooh, I know this one - is it an.... Angle Grinder?

Hammer

[Jim Crowther]

Post by Chas
The tools &
equipment I use are common, everyday tools and the most used is classed as
the simplest tool known to man.

I take it that's a wedge, and not a rock...

[Chas]

Post by Jim Crowther

Post by Chas
The tools &
equipment I use are common, everyday tools and the most used is classed as
the simplest tool known to man.

I take it that's a wedge, and not a rock...

The wedge is used most, a technique that takes me an average of 5mins to
gain access, together with a piano wire device it is by far the most common
way a professional will use to gain access to a locked vehicle.

Unless it's a model where just inserting a screwdriver & twisting works. Who
needs dental probes?

Interestingly, one particular manufacturer has a range of models which can
be opened by shorting 2 of the wires found within one of the door mirrors.
Please don't ask which one (this is not an urban myth !).

Where access is known to be impossible the rock is seldom used, far to much
risk of incidental damage, much more controlled using percussion
engineering, a technique I have perfected to gain access within 3 secs,
always wearing the correct PPE of course.

[ThePunisher]

Post by Chas

Post by Jim Crowther

Post by Chas
The tools &
equipment I use are common, everyday tools and the most used is
classed as the simplest tool known to man.

I take it that's a wedge, and not a rock...

The wedge is used most, a technique that takes me an average of 5mins
to gain access, together with a piano wire device it is by far the
most common way a professional will use to gain access to a locked
vehicle.
Unless it's a model where just inserting a screwdriver & twisting
works. Who needs dental probes?
Interestingly, one particular manufacturer has a range of models
which can be opened by shorting 2 of the wires found within one of
the door mirrors. Please don't ask which one (this is not an urban
myth !).
Where access is known to be impossible the rock is seldom used, far
to much risk of incidental damage, much more controlled using
percussion engineering, a technique I have perfected to gain access
within 3 secs, always wearing the correct PPE of course.

My car has no key locks, how would you get into it?

[Chas]

Post by ThePunisher
My car has no key locks, how would you get into it?

I work in the vehicle breakdown/recovery industry, I am not a master
criminal plotting world domination by breaking into 'allegedly' unstealable
cars.



Chas.

[IanAl]

Post by Chas
Part of my job involves gaining access to locked vehicles, no vehicle has
yet failed me and I can do this (on average) within 5mins. Even the most
secure vehicle can be accessed and several "very secure" vehicles that I
have previous experience of now take me less than 5 secs. The tools &
equipment I use are common, everyday tools and the most used is classed as
the simplest tool known to man.

A rock through the side window?

[Simon Finnigan]

Post by Chas

Post by Simon Finnigan
I suppose I could set-up a company, but it seems excessive to do so when

I`d

Post by Simon Finnigan
have no intention of taking it up seriously. As stupid as it sounds, it
just strikes me as an interesting skill to have. I`m also not sure I`d be
wanting to get so into it that safe-opening and the like is something I

can

Post by Simon Finnigan
do. I suppose it`d be an interesting job, but not sure it`s the one for

me.

Post by Simon Finnigan
--

It most certainly is an "interesting" skill to have, but please don't
confuse the world of TV with the real one we live in. Even the most skilled
& talented locksmith will invariably gain entry by drilling out the old lock
and fitting a new one.
If you have a romantic vision of "picking" locks with nothing more than a
bent paperclip or an assortment of old dentists (the TV toolkit) probes
then ask yourself why do locksmith's drive around in vans the size of
houses?

But I don`t want to be a locksmith really, I want to learn how to pick a
lock. Same as people want to juggle, ride a unicycle or anything else
really - I want to do it to see if I can do it. I don`t care if it`s easier
to drill the lock out - that`s entirely missing the point.

[Colin Wilson]

I don`t care if it`s easier to drill the lock out - that`s entirely
missing the point.

Indeed - a small wallet with lockpicks is easier to carry around than a
cordless drill / drill bits, and a few small hand tools.

[Chas]

Post by Simon Finnigan
But I don`t want to be a locksmith really, I want to learn how to pick a
lock. Same as people want to juggle, ride a unicycle or anything else
really - I want to do it to see if I can do it. I don`t care if it`s easier
to drill the lock out - that`s entirely missing the point.

OK. Let me put it another way, for your purposes consider your average
modern lock to be unpickable. You originally asked for advice on the
legality of carrying lockpicks in public on the pretence that sometime in
the future you may need to pick the occasional lock.

Without going off on the tangents your question has generated I hope that
you understand that it is not an offence 'per se' to carry lockpicks, the
potential to offend would stem from 'going equipped'.

If you wish to pick locks as a challenge or a puzzle my advice would be to
confine this to your own private environment.

It is not for this NG, the Police or even yourself to judge whether you are
committing an offence by 'going equipped' when carrying your set of
lockpicks, it is ultimately for a magistrate, a judge and/or a jury. They
may hear evidence from experts that will testify that your modern everyday
lock is VERY, VERY DIFFICULT to pick, even a proffesional with many years
experience who has been trained in individual lock mechanisms will only
resort to 'picking' a lock for exceptional reasons.

A good exceptional reason is to open a lock with no obvious sign that it has
been opened !

Consider the logic of spending 4 hrs to open a 5 lever mortice lock with
'dental probes' against destroying the lock and then replacing it in less
then 30mins.

There is no modern car that I have come across where you can open the door
lock using 'dental probes'. As part of my proffesion I am often called upon
by stranded motorists, police, insurance co's etc to gain access to locked
vehicles, in my experience if a lock can be picked then it does not need
what are referred to as lockpicks, often just about anything that will fit
in & jiggle will suffice.

You are potentially going to have to convince a magistrate, a judge and/or
jury that you were not 'going equipped' but merely carrying your set of
lockpicks on the off chance that you may come across a genuine opportunity
to demonstrate what you consider to be merely a hobby.

The last time that I stood in a courtroom the only person that immediately
struck me as being an idiot was the accused !

Many people collect locks, I do not doubt that many more are fascinated by
how they work and to be able to defeat one can be seen as a challenge that
only those people who don't have a key could understand.



Chas.

[Chas]

MESSAGE TO MODERATOR

Please ignore the first two reply's, the third is valid.

[Cerebus]

Post by Chas
MESSAGE TO MODERATOR
Please ignore the first two reply's, the third is valid.

Predictive moderation is trickier than it looks.

If what got moderated in and what got moderated out isn't what you would
have wished, and you think it matters, please post a correction. I would
suggest one correction and not three..unless you would like to specify which
one you would like to get through,but please, in advance..

Yours,

Cerebus

[Chas]

Post by Cerebus

Post by Chas
MESSAGE TO MODERATOR
Please ignore the first two reply's, the third is valid.

Predictive moderation is trickier than it looks.
If what got moderated in and what got moderated out isn't what you would
have wished, and you think it matters, please post a correction. I would
suggest one correction and not three..unless you would like to specify which
one you would like to get through,but please, in advance..
Yours,
Cerebus

Sorry, in OE I put posts in the outbox so I can re-read & amend before
sending. Don't know why but when I clicked send it informed me that it
couldn't be deleted?

As it didn't appear in the NG I assumed it didn't send . . . I temporarily
forgot all about the role of the moderators.

I checked on moderation.org.uk to see that the posts were still lined up,
assumed that a request to delete the first posts might somehow be read
before them.


Chas.

[Frank Erskine]

Post by Chas
Sorry, in OE I put posts in the outbox so I can re-read & amend before
sending. Don't know why but when I clicked send it informed me that it
couldn't be deleted?

OE isn't very good, is it? Outlook isn't much better.

Consider an alternative.

[Chas]

Post by Chas
MESSAGE TO MODERATOR
Please ignore the first two reply's, the third is valid.

Sigh . . .

[Marshall Rice]

Post by Simon Finnigan
Hi everyone,
I`m thinking about learning how to pick locks - not for any criminal
activity, but because I`ve got a few friends who are always losing keys, and
it`d come in very useful at work when they do lose their keys :-) I`m not
really interested in any ethical discussion - I won`t be doing anything I`d
consider unethical, only the legal side of things. Yes a set of lock picks
can be used for criminal activity, but they can also be used for legitimate
purposes. Does anyone know if I where stopped and searched by the police,
who then found the picks, how much trouble (if any) would I be in?

You'd probably be arrested for going equipped.

Even professional locksmiths seldom bother picking locks (other than on
vehicles). It's quicker and cheaper to drill them out and replace them.
The only people who ordinarily resort to lock picks are those who wish
to open locks covertly, the great majority of whom are criminals.

[Nick Maclaren]

In article <***@marshallricebin.co.uk>,
Marshall Rice <***@marshallricebin.co.uk> writes:
|>
|> Even professional locksmiths seldom bother picking locks (other than on
|> vehicles). It's quicker and cheaper to drill them out and replace them.
|> The only people who ordinarily resort to lock picks are those who wish
|> to open locks covertly, the great majority of whom are criminals.

Sometimes the lock or container is itself valuable - e.g. an
antique. Those are usually relatively easy to pick, though I
am not an expert.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

[unknown]

Post by Marshall Rice
Even professional locksmiths seldom bother picking locks (other than on
vehicles). It's quicker and cheaper to drill them out and replace them.
The only people who ordinarily resort to lock picks are those who wish
to open locks covertly, the great majority of whom are criminals.

Yes, found that recently. My wife cleverly lost the key to her petty
cash box, which is one of those hardened steel jobs supposed to deter
casual pilfering. It took me a few minutes to drill out the barrel and
operate the lever with a screwdriver. Then when I called the maker for a
replacement they got one (and new keys) to me within 24 hours. The
supplier said that it was a relatively common occurence. Much cheaper
than calling out a locksmith BTW.