Who is responsible?

Post by Davey
I am in dispute with Morrison's about their failure to provide a
correct receipt.
I use my local Morrison's for my car fuel. It also has a car wash,
which I use. Recently, it underwent a major refurbishment, and then
emerged as a brighter, more useful place, complete with off-license,
which to me is dubious.
It is still clearly marked as a Morrison's Petrol Station.
In December, I purchased fuel and a car wash, and paid with a
credit card. On examination at home, I saw that the receipt that I had
been given showed only the fuel cost, but did not include the carwash.
But my bank charged me the correct total. So I had one value charged,
and a different value on my receipt. An accountant's nightmare.
I complained to Morrison's, who said that the petrol station was
operated by Motor Fuel Group, and it was their responsibility. It is
operated by Motor Fuel Group, but the only time you know that is when
you read the receipt.
Motor Fuel Group were very receptive, it seemed, and I thought that
the problem of differing values had been fixed.
But today, I bought fuel and a carwash, and the receipt still showed
the fuel only. I had watched the display on the card reader, and it had
shown the correct total, and this was what my bank is charging me. But
why can they not get the total purchase displayed on the receipt?
Firstly, if the petrol station is clearly marked as Morrison's, with no
mention of Motor Fuel Group, is Morrison's not still responsible for
its petrol station?
Secondly, is either Morrison's or Motor Fuel Group breaking any law by
not providing a correct receipt for a credit or debit card transaction?

Assuming that VAT is payable for the car wash, shouldn't the receipt
include this information in case you wish to reclaim it?

--
Jeff

Davey

2025-01-15 10:44:46 UTC

On Wed, 15 Jan 2025 10:33:10 +0000

Post by Davey
I am in dispute with Morrison's about their failure to provide a
correct receipt.
I use my local Morrison's for my car fuel. It also has a car wash,
which I use. Recently, it underwent a major refurbishment, and then
emerged as a brighter, more useful place, complete with off-license,
which to me is dubious.
It is still clearly marked as a Morrison's Petrol Station.
In December, I purchased fuel and a car wash, and paid with a
credit card. On examination at home, I saw that the receipt that I
had been given showed only the fuel cost, but did not include the
carwash. But my bank charged me the correct total. So I had one
value charged, and a different value on my receipt. An accountant's
nightmare.
I complained to Morrison's, who said that the petrol station was
operated by Motor Fuel Group, and it was their responsibility. It is
operated by Motor Fuel Group, but the only time you know that is
when you read the receipt.
Motor Fuel Group were very receptive, it seemed, and I thought that
the problem of differing values had been fixed.
But today, I bought fuel and a carwash, and the receipt still showed
the fuel only. I had watched the display on the card reader, and it
had shown the correct total, and this was what my bank is charging
me. But why can they not get the total purchase displayed on the
receipt?
Firstly, if the petrol station is clearly marked as Morrison's,
with no mention of Motor Fuel Group, is Morrison's not still
responsible for its petrol station?
Secondly, is either Morrison's or Motor Fuel Group breaking any law
by not providing a correct receipt for a credit or debit card
transaction?

Assuming that VAT is payable for the car wash, shouldn't the receipt
include this information in case you wish to reclaim it?

Thank you and Lionel for the suggestion.
I am still waiting for their response to my re-complaint last night.

I will provide updates when (and if) here are any.

--
Davey.

Davey

2025-01-15 16:05:26 UTC

On Wed, 15 Jan 2025 10:33:10 +0000

Post by Davey
I am in dispute with Morrison's about their failure to provide a
correct receipt.
I use my local Morrison's for my car fuel. It also has a car wash,
which I use. Recently, it underwent a major refurbishment, and then
emerged as a brighter, more useful place, complete with off-license,
which to me is dubious.
It is still clearly marked as a Morrison's Petrol Station.
In December, I purchased fuel and a car wash, and paid with a
credit card. On examination at home, I saw that the receipt that I
had been given showed only the fuel cost, but did not include the
carwash. But my bank charged me the correct total. So I had one
value charged, and a different value on my receipt. An accountant's
nightmare.
I complained to Morrison's, who said that the petrol station was
operated by Motor Fuel Group, and it was their responsibility. It is
operated by Motor Fuel Group, but the only time you know that is
when you read the receipt.
Motor Fuel Group were very receptive, it seemed, and I thought that
the problem of differing values had been fixed.
But today, I bought fuel and a carwash, and the receipt still showed
the fuel only. I had watched the display on the card reader, and it
had shown the correct total, and this was what my bank is charging
me. But why can they not get the total purchase displayed on the
receipt?
Firstly, if the petrol station is clearly marked as Morrison's,
with no mention of Motor Fuel Group, is Morrison's not still
responsible for its petrol station?
Secondly, is either Morrison's or Motor Fuel Group breaking any law
by not providing a correct receipt for a credit or debit card
transaction?

Assuming that VAT is payable for the car wash, shouldn't the receipt
include this information in case you wish to reclaim it?

Another twist. On a whim, I dug the Carwash Code slip out of the rubbish
bin. It quotes the VAT breakdown for the cost of the carwash, but it
does not state how the wash was paid for, whether it was by debit card,
credit card, dubloons or bitcoins. So I still have nothing to confirm
that I paid by credit card or debit card, to balance my books.
All I want is a receipt that shows the same amount that my bank has
recorded. Not rocket science, methinks.
I wonder how an accountant familiar with double-entry book-keeping
would view this?

--
Davey.

LionelEdwards

2025-01-15 16:16:34 UTC

Post by Davey
On Wed, 15 Jan 2025 10:33:10 +0000

Post by Davey
I am in dispute with Morrison's about their failure to provide a
correct receipt.
I use my local Morrison's for my car fuel. It also has a car wash,
which I use. Recently, it underwent a major refurbishment, and then
emerged as a brighter, more useful place, complete with off-license,
which to me is dubious.
It is still clearly marked as a Morrison's Petrol Station.
In December, I purchased fuel and a car wash, and paid with a
credit card. On examination at home, I saw that the receipt that I
had been given showed only the fuel cost, but did not include the
carwash. But my bank charged me the correct total. So I had one
value charged, and a different value on my receipt. An accountant's
nightmare.
I complained to Morrison's, who said that the petrol station was
operated by Motor Fuel Group, and it was their responsibility. It is
operated by Motor Fuel Group, but the only time you know that is
when you read the receipt.
Motor Fuel Group were very receptive, it seemed, and I thought that
the problem of differing values had been fixed.
But today, I bought fuel and a carwash, and the receipt still showed
the fuel only. I had watched the display on the card reader, and it
had shown the correct total, and this was what my bank is charging
me. But why can they not get the total purchase displayed on the
receipt?
Firstly, if the petrol station is clearly marked as Morrison's,
with no mention of Motor Fuel Group, is Morrison's not still
responsible for its petrol station?
Secondly, is either Morrison's or Motor Fuel Group breaking any law
by not providing a correct receipt for a credit or debit card
transaction?

Assuming that VAT is payable for the car wash, shouldn't the receipt
include this information in case you wish to reclaim it?

With common sense? They have given you all the information
you need to post it into your bookkeeping system.

Davey

2025-01-15 23:07:18 UTC

On Wed, 15 Jan 2025 16:16:34 +0000

Post by Davey
On Wed, 15 Jan 2025 10:33:10 +0000

Post by Davey
I am in dispute with Morrison's about their failure to provide a
correct receipt.
I use my local Morrison's for my car fuel. It also has a car wash,
which I use. Recently, it underwent a major refurbishment, and
then emerged as a brighter, more useful place, complete with
off-license, which to me is dubious.
It is still clearly marked as a Morrison's Petrol Station.
In December, I purchased fuel and a car wash, and paid with a
credit card. On examination at home, I saw that the receipt that I
had been given showed only the fuel cost, but did not include the
carwash. But my bank charged me the correct total. So I had one
value charged, and a different value on my receipt. An
accountant's nightmare.
I complained to Morrison's, who said that the petrol station was
operated by Motor Fuel Group, and it was their responsibility. It
is operated by Motor Fuel Group, but the only time you know that
is when you read the receipt.
Motor Fuel Group were very receptive, it seemed, and I thought
that the problem of differing values had been fixed.
But today, I bought fuel and a carwash, and the receipt still
showed the fuel only. I had watched the display on the card
reader, and it had shown the correct total, and this was what my
bank is charging me. But why can they not get the total purchase
displayed on the receipt?
Firstly, if the petrol station is clearly marked as Morrison's,
with no mention of Motor Fuel Group, is Morrison's not still
responsible for its petrol station?
Secondly, is either Morrison's or Motor Fuel Group breaking any
law by not providing a correct receipt for a credit or debit card
transaction?

Assuming that VAT is payable for the car wash, shouldn't the
receipt include this information in case you wish to reclaim it?

Another twist. On a whim, I dug the Carwash Code slip out of the
rubbish bin. It quotes the VAT breakdown for the cost of the
carwash, but it does not state how the wash was paid for, whether
it was by debit card, credit card, dubloons or bitcoins. So I still
have nothing to confirm that I paid by credit card or debit card,
to balance my books. All I want is a receipt that shows the same
amount that my bank has recorded. Not rocket science, methinks.
I wonder how an accountant familiar with double-entry book-keeping
would view this?

With common sense? They have given you all the information
you need to post it into your bookkeeping system.

But my bookkeeping system is based on the concept that I have a
bank charge for a transaction, in this case Â£65.45, and I cross-check it
with the corresponding vendor's receipt, but I do not have a charge card
receipt with a correct value to be cross-checked against it, even
though the card reader displayed that exact value. I only have a card
receipt for Â£58.45. What is so difficult?

--
Davey.

LionelEdwards

2025-01-16 08:59:17 UTC

Post by Davey
On Wed, 15 Jan 2025 16:16:34 +0000

Post by Davey
On Wed, 15 Jan 2025 10:33:10 +0000

Post by Davey
I am in dispute with Morrison's about their failure to provide a
correct receipt.
I use my local Morrison's for my car fuel. It also has a car wash,
which I use. Recently, it underwent a major refurbishment, and
then emerged as a brighter, more useful place, complete with
off-license, which to me is dubious.
It is still clearly marked as a Morrison's Petrol Station.
In December, I purchased fuel and a car wash, and paid with a
credit card. On examination at home, I saw that the receipt that I
had been given showed only the fuel cost, but did not include the
carwash. But my bank charged me the correct total. So I had one
value charged, and a different value on my receipt. An
accountant's nightmare.
I complained to Morrison's, who said that the petrol station was
operated by Motor Fuel Group, and it was their responsibility. It
is operated by Motor Fuel Group, but the only time you know that
is when you read the receipt.
Motor Fuel Group were very receptive, it seemed, and I thought
that the problem of differing values had been fixed.
But today, I bought fuel and a carwash, and the receipt still
showed the fuel only. I had watched the display on the card
reader, and it had shown the correct total, and this was what my
bank is charging me. But why can they not get the total purchase
displayed on the receipt?
Firstly, if the petrol station is clearly marked as Morrison's,
with no mention of Motor Fuel Group, is Morrison's not still
responsible for its petrol station?
Secondly, is either Morrison's or Motor Fuel Group breaking any
law by not providing a correct receipt for a credit or debit card
transaction?

Assuming that VAT is payable for the car wash, shouldn't the
receipt include this information in case you wish to reclaim it?

Another twist. On a whim, I dug the Carwash Code slip out of the
rubbish bin. It quotes the VAT breakdown for the cost of the
carwash, but it does not state how the wash was paid for, whether
it was by debit card, credit card, dubloons or bitcoins. So I still
have nothing to confirm that I paid by credit card or debit card,
to balance my books. All I want is a receipt that shows the same
amount that my bank has recorded. Not rocket science, methinks.
I wonder how an accountant familiar with double-entry book-keeping
would view this?

With common sense? They have given you all the information
you need to post it into your bookkeeping system.

But my bookkeeping system is based on the concept that I have a
bank charge...

Bank Payment. In accountancy jargon a "bank charge" is a cost
levied by the bank.

Post by Davey
for a transaction, in this case £65.45, and I cross-check it
with the corresponding vendor's receipt, but I do not have a charge card
receipt with a correct value to be cross-checked against it, even
though the card reader displayed that exact value. I only have a card
receipt for £58.45. What is so difficult?

Staple the two receipts together with the £58.45 on top.

Use a biro to write "+ £7.00 car-wash = £65.45", and you have
the receipt you are asking for with all the evidence attached.

Davey

2025-01-16 11:47:48 UTC

On Thu, 16 Jan 2025 08:59:17 +0000

Post by Davey
On Wed, 15 Jan 2025 16:16:34 +0000

Post by Davey
On Wed, 15 Jan 2025 10:33:10 +0000

Post by Davey
I am in dispute with Morrison's about their failure to provide a
correct receipt.
I use my local Morrison's for my car fuel. It also has a car
wash, which I use. Recently, it underwent a major
refurbishment, and then emerged as a brighter, more useful
place, complete with off-license, which to me is dubious.
It is still clearly marked as a Morrison's Petrol Station.
In December, I purchased fuel and a car wash, and paid with a
credit card. On examination at home, I saw that the receipt
that I had been given showed only the fuel cost, but did not
include the carwash. But my bank charged me the correct total.
So I had one value charged, and a different value on my
receipt. An accountant's nightmare.
I complained to Morrison's, who said that the petrol station was
operated by Motor Fuel Group, and it was their responsibility.
It is operated by Motor Fuel Group, but the only time you know
that is when you read the receipt.
Motor Fuel Group were very receptive, it seemed, and I thought
that the problem of differing values had been fixed.
But today, I bought fuel and a carwash, and the receipt still
showed the fuel only. I had watched the display on the card
reader, and it had shown the correct total, and this was what my
bank is charging me. But why can they not get the total purchase
displayed on the receipt?
Firstly, if the petrol station is clearly marked as Morrison's,
with no mention of Motor Fuel Group, is Morrison's not still
responsible for its petrol station?
Secondly, is either Morrison's or Motor Fuel Group breaking any
law by not providing a correct receipt for a credit or debit
card transaction?

Assuming that VAT is payable for the car wash, shouldn't the
receipt include this information in case you wish to reclaim it?

Another twist. On a whim, I dug the Carwash Code slip out of the
rubbish bin. It quotes the VAT breakdown for the cost of the
carwash, but it does not state how the wash was paid for, whether
it was by debit card, credit card, dubloons or bitcoins. So I
still have nothing to confirm that I paid by credit card or debit
card, to balance my books. All I want is a receipt that shows the
same amount that my bank has recorded. Not rocket science,
methinks. I wonder how an accountant familiar with double-entry
book-keeping would view this?

With common sense? They have given you all the information
you need to post it into your bookkeeping system.

But my bookkeeping system is based on the concept that I have a
bank charge...

Bank Payment. In accountancy jargon a "bank charge" is a cost
levied by the bank.

Ok, thanks for the information.

Post by Davey
for a transaction, in this case Â£65.45, and I cross-check it
with the corresponding vendor's receipt, but I do not have a charge
card receipt with a correct value to be cross-checked against it,
even though the card reader displayed that exact value. I only have
a card receipt for Â£58.45. What is so difficult?

Staple the two receipts together with the Â£58.45 on top.
Use a biro to write "+ Â£7.00 car-wash = Â£65.45", and you have
the receipt you are asking for with all the evidence attached.

Yes, I could do that, and I do something like it, but nowhere else
separates purchases and registers them differently. When I go to the
actual Morrison's shop, it doesn't give me one receipt for my food and a
different one for the cats' food and a different one for toiletries,
even if some of it is, or is not, subject to VAT. It gives me one
receipt that happens to match the total amount that the cash register
showed. Amazing what technology can do.

--
Davey.

Jeff

2025-01-16 09:22:35 UTC

What happens if you only use the car wash and don't buy petrol?

Jeff

Davey

2025-01-16 11:31:11 UTC

On Thu, 16 Jan 2025 09:22:35 +0000

Post by Jeff

Post by Davey
I am in dispute with Morrison's about their failure to provide a
correct receipt.
I use my local Morrison's for my car fuel. It also has a car wash,
which I use. Recently, it underwent a major refurbishment, and then
emerged as a brighter, more useful place, complete with
off-license, which to me is dubious.
It is still clearly marked as a Morrison's Petrol Station.
In December, I purchased fuel and a car wash, and paid with a
credit card. On examination at home, I saw that the receipt that I
had been given showed only the fuel cost, but did not include the
carwash. But my bank charged me the correct total. So I had one
value charged, and a different value on my receipt. An
accountant's nightmare.
I complained to Morrison's, who said that the petrol station was
operated by Motor Fuel Group, and it was their responsibility. It
is operated by Motor Fuel Group, but the only time you know that
is when you read the receipt.
Motor Fuel Group were very receptive, it seemed, and I thought that
the problem of differing values had been fixed.
But today, I bought fuel and a carwash, and the receipt still
showed the fuel only. I had watched the display on the card
reader, and it had shown the correct total, and this was what my
bank is charging me. But why can they not get the total purchase
displayed on the receipt?
Firstly, if the petrol station is clearly marked as Morrison's,
with no mention of Motor Fuel Group, is Morrison's not still
responsible for its petrol station?

What happens if you only use the car wash and don't buy petrol?
Jeff

An interesting question. Almost certainly, the receipt issued will be
the same as the one I received the other day, with no mention
whatsoever of the method of payment. The one and only time I did that
was before the Great Petrol Station Rebuild, at the end of last year.
The one good thing about the Rebuild is that they finally fixed the
occasional failure of the carwash machine, which would fail to drop and
raise the air knife, thereby trying to dry the car from the high
storage position.It didn't work.

--
Davey.

LionelEdwards

2025-01-15 10:10:51 UTC

Nobody is entitled to a receipt, but every business must
issue a VAT invoice, so I would call it that if I were you.
If there is no VAT you need that to be stated. If there
is VAT you need to know how much it is - so you can reclaim some
or all of it. They for their part need to account for it with HMRC.

I would hint to them that the VAT man is asking for the proper
documentation, and keep a list of the payments and dates that you
need VAT analysis for. That ought to get their attention.

Adam Funk

2025-01-15 12:04:33 UTC

I haven't had this problem, but I have noticed that Morrisons fuel now
shows up as "Motor Fuel Group" on my credit card bills; the receipt
says both.

Post by Davey
Motor Fuel Group were very receptive, it seemed, and I thought that
the problem of differing values had been fixed.
But today, I bought fuel and a carwash, and the receipt still showed
the fuel only. I had watched the display on the card reader, and it had
shown the correct total, and this was what my bank is charging me. But
why can they not get the total purchase displayed on the receipt?
Firstly, if the petrol station is clearly marked as Morrison's, with no
mention of Motor Fuel Group, is Morrison's not still responsible for
its petrol station?
Secondly, is either Morrison's or Motor Fuel Group breaking any law by
not providing a correct receipt for a credit or debit card transaction?

Nobody is entitled to a receipt, but every business must
issue a VAT invoice, so I would call it that if I were you.

ISTR that only VAT registered businesses have a legal right to receive
a VAT invoice.

Petrol stations usually issue them by default, though, because
employers require them when reimbursing people for refuelling company
cars. (At least, that used to be case.)

I find it bizarre that there isn't a legal right to get a receipt when
you pay for something, though.

Post by LionelEdwards
If there is no VAT you need that to be stated. If there
is VAT you need to know how much it is - so you can reclaim some
or all of it. They for their part need to account for it with HMRC.
I would hint to them that the VAT man is asking for the proper
documentation, and keep a list of the payments and dates that you
need VAT analysis for. That ought to get their attention.

Andy Burns

2025-01-15 12:22:40 UTC

Post by LionelEdwards
Nobody is entitled to a receipt, but every business must
issue a VAT invoice, so I would call it that if I were you.
ISTR that only VAT registered businesses have a legal right to

receive a VAT invoice.

s/businesses/entities/

Petrol stations usually issue them by default, though, because
employers require them when reimbursing people for refuelling
company cars.

I am personally registered for VAT, I claim a proportion of my broadband
costs as expenses for working from home, but Plusnet won't issue a VAT
invoice, and no longer have business products, only residential products.

Jeff Layman

2025-01-15 13:01:37 UTC

Post by Andy Burns

receive a VAT invoice.

s/businesses/entities/

Petrol stations usually issue them by default, though, because
employers require them when reimbursing people for refuelling
company cars.

Why should it matter if a product is business or residential if the
sales exceed the VAT limit? Anyway, the key info is here:
<https://www.gov.uk/invoicing-and-taking-payment-from-customers/invoices-what-they-must-include>

*Invoices - what they must include*
...

Post by Andy Burns
VAT amount if applicable

...

*VAT invoices*
You must use VAT invoices if you and your customer are VAT registered.

I don't see that Plusnet have any option; they must issue you with an
invoice which includes VAT as both parties are VAT registered. You might
find this of interest
<https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/any-answers/should-vat-on-sales-invoice-be-backdated>,
in particular:
"Should I re-issue the sales invoices with VAT? and get subsidiary
companies to pay for the VAT outstanding?". The reply was "Yes". But
what's sauce for the goose must be sauce for the gander - Plusnet must
issue you with backdated invoices including VAT if you requested these
previously, and are doing so now.

--
Jeff

Andy Burns

2025-01-15 13:23:43 UTC

Post by Jeff Layman
Why should it matter if a product is business or residential if the
<https://www.gov.uk/invoicing-and-taking-payment-from-customers/
invoices-what-they-must-include>
Invoices - what they must include
...

Post by Andy Burns
VAT amount if applicable

...
VAT invoices
You must use VAT invoices if you and your customer are VAT registered.
I don't see that Plusnet have any option; they must issue you with an
invoice which includes VAT as both parties are VAT registered.

Their answer always used to be "if you want a VAT invoice, buy a
business product" which was more expensive, I haven't asked since they
deflected business customers from Plusnet brand to BT brand.

Roland Perry

2025-01-15 14:47:21 UTC

Post by Andy Burns
I am personally registered for VAT, I claim a proportion of my
broadband costs as expenses for working from home, but Plusnet won't
issue a VAT invoice, and no longer have business products, only
residential products.

Why should it matter if a product is business or residential if the
sales exceed the VAT limit?

They would argue, like BT did before them for POTs, that if their
service has T&C which say you mustn't use it for business, then because
you can't possible as a household be registered for VAT, there's no need
to issue a VAT invoice to an unregistered consumer.

--
Roland Perry

Max Demian

2025-01-15 17:46:37 UTC

I am personally registered for VAT, I claim a proportion of my
broadband costs as expenses for working from home, but Plusnet won't
issue a VAT invoice, and no longer have business products, only
residential products.

Why should it matter if a product is business or residential if the
sales exceed the VAT limit?

What about supermarkets? I don't think they issue VAT invoices. Why not?
It's all computerised.

--
Max Demian

Jeff Layman

2025-01-15 19:19:13 UTC

Why should it matter if a product is business or residential if the
sales exceed the VAT limit?

Well, if that's what their T&C say, then it's a contractual matter
between BT and the customer about the customer using their phone for
business when they shouldn't be. That doesn't absolve BT from having to
provide an invoice including VAT figures if the customer demands it, as
both BT and the customer are registered for VAT. HMRC will have a VAT
number for BT and a VAT number for the customer at the address which
will be the one shown for the phone service. Why wouldn't, for example,
a sole trader be registered for VAT at their household address?

--
Jeff

Roland Perry

2025-01-16 08:08:12 UTC

Why should it matter if a product is business or residential if the
sales exceed the VAT limit?

The thing is, BT did this for decades, and they have some very fancy
lawyers and accountants, as well as the regulator to cope with, so I'm
sure their position was safe.

--
Roland Perry

Jeff Layman

2025-01-16 08:30:56 UTC

Why should it matter if a product is business or residential if the
sales exceed the VAT limit?

The thing is, BT did this for decades, and they have some very fancy
lawyers and accountants, as well as the regulator to cope with, so I'm
sure their position was safe.

Interesting. Were they doing this in the 90s and 00s, or was it earlier?
I was a sole trader (VAT registered) during that time and I'm pretty
sure that my "domestic" phone bill included a figure for VAT, as I
claimed a portion of it for business use.

--
Jeff

Jethro_uk

2025-01-16 08:58:23 UTC

Post by Andy Burns
I am personally registered for VAT, I claim a proportion of my
broadband costs as expenses for working from home, but Plusnet
won't issue a VAT invoice, and no longer have business products,
only residential products.

Why should it matter if a product is business or residential if the
sales exceed the VAT limit?

They would argue, like BT did before them for POTs, that if their
service has T&C which say you mustn't use it for business, then
because you can't possible as a household be registered for VAT,
there's no need to issue a VAT invoice to an unregistered consumer.

Well, if that's what their T&C say, then it's a contractual matter
between BT and the customer about the customer using their phone for
business when they shouldn't be. That doesn't absolve BT from having
to provide an invoice including VAT figures if the customer demands
it, as both BT and the customer are registered for VAT. HMRC will have
a VAT number for BT and a VAT number for the customer at the address
which will be the one shown for the phone service. Why wouldn't, for
example,
a sole trader be registered for VAT at their household address?

The thing is, BT did this for decades, and they have some very fancy
lawyers and accountants, as well as the regulator to cope with, so I'm
sure their position was safe.

There was a time when it took a geological epoch to get a second line (or
even a first). So the GPO may have had a practice of allowing domestic
lines to be used for business.

Davey

2025-01-16 09:07:51 UTC

On Thu, 16 Jan 2025 08:58:23 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by Andy Burns
I am personally registered for VAT, I claim a proportion of
my broadband costs as expenses for working from home, but
Plusnet won't issue a VAT invoice, and no longer have
business products, only residential products.

Why should it matter if a product is business or residential if
the sales exceed the VAT limit?

They would argue, like BT did before them for POTs, that if
their service has T&C which say you mustn't use it for business,
then because you can't possible as a household be registered for
VAT, there's no need to issue a VAT invoice to an unregistered
consumer.

Well, if that's what their T&C say, then it's a contractual matter
between BT and the customer about the customer using their phone
for business when they shouldn't be. That doesn't absolve BT from
having to provide an invoice including VAT figures if the
customer demands it, as both BT and the customer are registered
for VAT. HMRC will have a VAT number for BT and a VAT number for
the customer at the address which will be the one shown for the
phone service. Why wouldn't, for example,
a sole trader be registered for VAT at their household address?

The thing is, BT did this for decades, and they have some very
fancy lawyers and accountants, as well as the regulator to cope
with, so I'm sure their position was safe.

Interesting. Were they doing this in the 90s and 00s, or was it
earlier? I was a sole trader (VAT registered) during that time and
I'm pretty sure that my "domestic" phone bill included a figure for
VAT, as I claimed a portion of it for business use.

There was a time when it took a geological epoch to get a second line
(or even a first). So the GPO may have had a practice of allowing
domestic lines to be used for business.

In contrast, the first time I rented an apartment in the US, in
late 1977, I went to the local AT&T building at lunchtime, ordered and
was given a 'phone number, bought a handset, and that afternoon, I
plugged it in and I had a functioning landline.

And then AT&T was broken up.....and we later had the 'Slamming'
practices used by Sprint, amongst others. Sprint twice, in my case.

--
Davey.

Jethro_uk

2025-01-16 09:54:32 UTC

Post by Davey
On Thu, 16 Jan 2025 08:58:23 -0000 (UTC)

[quoted text muted]

Yeah. A lot of people have no idea how shit the UK was in the 70s. Why
people hark back to them I don't know. Maybe dementia ?

One of my first dabbles into electronics was aged 10 when I found out how
to stop the extra "unofficial" telephone my Dad fitted behind the GPOs
back from tinkling. A nice guy who ran (one of the 3) local electronics
shops advised.

Davey

2025-01-16 11:39:09 UTC

On Thu, 16 Jan 2025 09:54:32 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by Davey
On Thu, 16 Jan 2025 08:58:23 -0000 (UTC)

[quoted text muted]

Yeah. A lot of people have no idea how shit the UK was in the 70s.
Why people hark back to them I don't know. Maybe dementia ?
One of my first dabbles into electronics was aged 10 when I found out
how to stop the extra "unofficial" telephone my Dad fitted behind the
GPOs back from tinkling. A nice guy who ran (one of the 3) local
electronics shops advised.

Been there, done that. It is now amazing to think that it was not
officially allowed to add a second handset to your own line in your own
home.

At one time, my parents called me from their home in London. But when
the call was finished, my Dad did not put the handset back on the
cradle properly, so I could still hear him and my Mum talking. I could
not break the call from my end, it just stayed connected. I had to
go to my neighbour to use her 'phone, call my parents' neighbour, whose
number I had to get from Directory Enquiries, and call them to ask them
to go across the hall and ask my parents to put their handset back
properly. I believe that that would not now be able to happen.
Ah, the Good Old Days!

--
Davey.

Roland Perry

2025-01-16 13:27:45 UTC

Why should it matter if a product is business or residential if the
sales exceed the VAT limit?

The thing is, BT did this for decades, and they have some very fancy
lawyers and accountants, as well as the regulator to cope with, so I'm
sure their position was safe.

Interesting. Were they doing this in the 90s and 00s, or was it
earlier?

They were doing it as long as I was "working from home", which started
in 1989. I had there phone lines - two were business (at extra cost) and
one was domestic. They wouldn't issue a Tax invoice for the latter, even
though somewhat against the rules I used it for receiving most of
business calls. The other two lines were for outbound business calls and
FAX/MODEM.

My monthly bill (for all three) was £300-£400, the equivalent of over
£1000 in today's money.

Post by Jeff Layman
I was a sole trader (VAT registered) during that time and I'm pretty
sure that my "domestic" phone bill included a figure for VAT, as I
claimed a portion of it for business use.

It's always possible you used the bit of paper called "Invoice", and
annotated "This is not a VAT Invoice", and the VAT people didn't care.

--
Roland Perry

Adam Funk

2025-01-15 13:06:51 UTC

Post by Andy Burns

receive a VAT invoice.

s/businesses/entities/

Good point.

Post by Andy Burns

Petrol stations usually issue them by default, though, because
employers require them when reimbursing people for refuelling
company cars.

Someone who worked for an electricity company told me that utilities
put "This is not a VAT invoice" on bills that would otherwise qualify
as VAT invoices purely so that when small business customers ask for
VAT invoices, they can hit them with commercial tariffs.

Roland Perry

2025-01-15 14:44:59 UTC

You'll find that almost no ISPs will "allow" business use on their
domestic products, because they don't want to be liable if there's an
outage. Business-use ISPs tend to charge a lot more.

--
Roland Perry

Jethro_uk

2025-01-15 16:41:29 UTC

Post by Andy Burns
I am personally registered for VAT, I claim a proportion of my broadband
costs as expenses for working from home, but Plusnet won't issue a VAT
invoice, and no longer have business products, only residential products.

You'll find that almost no ISPs will "allow" business use on their
domestic products, because they don't want to be liable if there's an
outage. Business-use ISPs tend to charge a lot more.

When the whole WFH craze exploded in the pandemic, I gave up advising
people to invest in a specific broadband connection for their work. Which
was one of the things I detailed when creating a WFH policy back in
(checks) 2010.

Roland Perry

2025-01-15 18:30:32 UTC

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by Andy Burns
I am personally registered for VAT, I claim a proportion of my broadband
costs as expenses for working from home, but Plusnet won't issue a VAT
invoice, and no longer have business products, only residential products.

You'll find that almost no ISPs will "allow" business use on their
domestic products, because they don't want to be liable if there's an
outage. Business-use ISPs tend to charge a lot more.

I agree. And would not have signed off a WFH policy that specified using
a "Not Suitable for Work"(sic) ISP contract. But there's widespread
denial that consumer contracts aren't always suitable (let alone allowed
by T&C) for work.

Get the H&S people all over, like a rash, WFHers who don't have a smoke
detector, or who plug one extension lead into another, or use a chair
without all the required adjustments, or don't have an eye-level monitor
[thus a chin-level keyboard for a laptop?]

But when it come to the quality/availability/who_pays of online services
(and yes, Zoom-free I'm looking at you, too) they haven't a clue.

--
Roland Perry

Davey

2025-01-15 12:46:11 UTC

On Wed, 15 Jan 2025 12:04:33 +0000

Subject: Re: Who is responsible?
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2025 12:04:33 +0000
User-Agent: slrn/pre1.0.4-6 (Linux)
Newsgroups: uk.legal.moderated
Organization: SGO

I haven't had this problem, but I have noticed that Morrisons fuel now
shows up as "Motor Fuel Group" on my credit card bills; the receipt
says both.

My receipt from yesterday shows both names. And it includes a VAT
breakdown, but only for the fuel. There is zero mention of the carwash,
the cost of it, or the VAT for it.
I would have thought that this would be one of the simplest things to
programme into a terminal, after all, the card reader displayed the
correct total, why does the receipt not echo that?

--
Davey.

Adam Funk

2025-01-15 14:01:35 UTC

Post by Davey
On Wed, 15 Jan 2025 12:04:33 +0000

Subject: Re: Who is responsible?
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2025 12:04:33 +0000
User-Agent: slrn/pre1.0.4-6 (Linux)
Newsgroups: uk.legal.moderated
Organization: SGO

I haven't had this problem, but I have noticed that Morrisons fuel now
shows up as "Motor Fuel Group" on my credit card bills; the receipt
says both.

It's weird, I agree. (I buy fuel at Morrisons/MFG occasionally, but
I've never used their car wash.)

The only explanation I can think of -- and it's not a great one --- is
that when customers putting fuel in their employers' cars started
demanding VAT receipts, they fudged a system to print them out for
fuel only.

Peter Johnson

2025-01-15 13:01:28 UTC

Post by Davey
Firstly, if the petrol station is clearly marked as Morrison's, with no
mention of Motor Fuel Group, is Morrison's not still responsible for
its petrol station?

I suppose that MFG is licensed by Morrisons to use their name, so the
latter won't be responsible for the petrol stations, the same as
Richard Branson is not responsible for most of the activities that use
the Virgin brand.

(I think, but haven't checked, that MFG is own by some of the same
people, or all of them, that own Morrisons.

Theo

2025-01-15 13:09:50 UTC

Post by Peter Johnson

Post by Davey
Firstly, if the petrol station is clearly marked as Morrison's, with no
mention of Motor Fuel Group, is Morrison's not still responsible for
its petrol station?

I suppose that MFG is licensed by Morrisons to use their name, so the
latter won't be responsible for the petrol stations, the same as
Richard Branson is not responsible for most of the activities that use
the Virgin brand.
(I think, but haven't checked, that MFG is own by some of the same
people, or all of them, that own Morrisons.

The Issa brothers, yes. They started MFG (runs many Esso branded filling
stations, among others) and later bought Morrisons from the Morrison family.
Competition authorities made them sell off some of the Esso stations where
they were too close to Morrisons ones, but I assume now the Morrisons and
Esso fuel estate is run by MFG.

Theo

Fredxx

2025-01-15 17:56:58 UTC

This a grey area, and a business only has to provide a VAT receipt or
invoice to another VAT registered business. It's not a god given right
as anyone with a personal mobile contract will know who won't get any
VAT invoices for their service.

I had an issue with Asda where one of their pumps didn't provide a VAT
receipt. Asda were very slopey shouldered and told me to attend the
branch but refused to reimburse the cost of the journey. It was many
miles away. I even got an email saying they didn't provide VAT receipts
for fuel purchases.

There are so many times you try and get a receipt before giving up and
threatening legal action. Well I did and got the VAT element, and all
the costs from Asda. They do actually have a legal department!

Motor Fuel Limited (trading as Motor Fuel Group and MFG) have a
published head office so a letter before action could be served there.

Alan Lee

2025-01-16 08:35:06 UTC

Post by Fredxx

Post by LionelEdwards
With common sense? They have given you all the information
you need to post it into your bookkeeping system.

Motor Fuel Limited (trading as Motor Fuel Group and MFG) have a
published head office so a letter before action could be served there.

But there will be no action, as a VAT receipt isnt needed to be issued,
unless it is a business to business (VAT registered) transaction.
If anyone took such action, they would be laughed out of Court, in fact
it wouldnt get to Court, as there is no case to answer - the OP has now
said he'd mislaid one of the receipts, so he does have a receipt now,
and breakdown of the cost, but he is now complaining of the method of
payment not being shown on the receipt.
I would refer him to Daveys post, as many receipts do not show the
method of payment, and threatening to take action against such Companies
will get nowhere.

Fredxx

2025-01-16 15:03:29 UTC

Post by Alan Lee

Post by Fredxx

Post by LionelEdwards
With common sense? They have given you all the information
you need to post it into your bookkeeping system.

Motor Fuel Limited (trading as Motor Fuel Group and MFG) have a
published head office so a letter before action could be served there.

My case against Asda must be that exception that proves the rule. But in
may case I hadn't mislaid the receipt, just the machine wouldn't give me
one despite requesting one.

Davey

2025-01-16 17:52:30 UTC