Slavery Reparations

[Jeff Gaines]

There is a suggestion that the question of reparations for slavery may
come up at the Commonwealth Conference.

Is there a legal basis for reparation claims in English or International
law?

[Spike]

Post by Jeff Gaines
There is a suggestion that the question of reparations for slavery may
come up at the Commonwealth Conference.
Is there a legal basis for reparation claims in English or International
law?

An interesting question, which brings up the parallel case of Europeans
raising the issue of reparations for those enslaved, thought to be over a
million people, by ‘Barbary pirates’.

[The Todal]

Post by Spike

Post by Jeff Gaines
There is a suggestion that the question of reparations for slavery may
come up at the Commonwealth Conference.
Is there a legal basis for reparation claims in English or International
law?

An interesting question, which brings up the parallel case of Europeans
raising the issue of reparations for those enslaved, thought to be over a
million people, by ‘Barbary pirates’.

Britain benefited enormously from the slave trade. But it would be a
pity if the reparations were to be paid not by the wealthy landowners
who built stately homes for themselves and their families, but by our
taxpayers who are the descendants of the lowly factory workers and
ordinary workers of Britain.

Anyway, this might be a good moment to recommend everyone to watch, on
catchup, a Channel 4 documentary "Churchill: Britain's Secret
Apartheid". During WW2 we desperately needed American troops to help us
defeat the Nazis. But America still had a colour-bar - black people were
prohibited from using many bars and restaurants and places of recreation
and it was not unusual for black men to be beaten up or lynched for
dancing or having sex with white women, and for juries to acquit the
perpetrators. So when the Americans came to Britain they expected us to
operate the same colour bar and to prevent black servicemen from using
our pubs and dance halls, and our government secretly tolerated this and
covered up some of the murders of black servicemen by white American
military police. Our own black people faced prejudice and danger from
suspicious white American troops.

And obviously black people are more likely than whites to be shot by
American police even to this day. How you could ever sort out the
reparations for the black community is a huge question.

[GB]

Post by The Todal

Post by Spike

Post by Jeff Gaines
There is a suggestion that the question of reparations for slavery may
come up at the Commonwealth Conference.
Is there a legal basis for reparation claims in English or International
law?

An interesting question, which brings up the parallel case of Europeans
raising the issue of reparations for those enslaved, thought to be over a
million people, by ‘Barbary pirates’.

Britain benefited enormously from the slave trade. But it would be a
pity if the reparations were to be paid not by the wealthy landowners
who built stately homes for themselves and their families, but by our
taxpayers who are the descendants of the lowly factory workers and
ordinary workers of Britain.

I think you know the answer to that one.

[Jeff Layman]

Post by The Todal

Post by Spike

Post by Jeff Gaines
There is a suggestion that the question of reparations for slavery may
come up at the Commonwealth Conference.
Is there a legal basis for reparation claims in English or International
law?

An interesting question, which brings up the parallel case of Europeans
raising the issue of reparations for those enslaved, thought to be over a
million people, by ‘Barbary pirates’.

Britain benefited enormously from the slave trade. But it would be a
pity if the reparations were to be paid not by the wealthy landowners
who built stately homes for themselves and their families, but by our
taxpayers who are the descendants of the lowly factory workers and
ordinary workers of Britain

I might have misheard, but during an interview on the BBC World News
this morning a figure of £13 trillion was mentioned! If Rachel Reeves
thought that £22B (or should that be £40B?) was a challenge, she'd
better start working now.

Post by The Todal
And obviously black people are more likely than whites to be shot by
American police even to this day. How you could ever sort out the
reparations for the black community is a huge question.

Only American police?...

[AnthonyL]

Post by Jeff Layman

Post by The Todal

Post by Spike

Post by Jeff Gaines
There is a suggestion that the question of reparations for slavery may
come up at the Commonwealth Conference.
Is there a legal basis for reparation claims in English or International
law?

An interesting question, which brings up the parallel case of Europeans
raising the issue of reparations for those enslaved, thought to be over a
million people, by ‘Barbary pirates’.

Britain benefited enormously from the slave trade. But it would be a
pity if the reparations were to be paid not by the wealthy landowners
who built stately homes for themselves and their families, but by our
taxpayers who are the descendants of the lowly factory workers and
ordinary workers of Britain

I might have misheard, but during an interview on the BBC World News
this morning a figure of £13 trillion was mentioned! If Rachel Reeves
thought that £22B (or should that be £40B?) was a challenge, she'd
better start working now.

Just increase the borrowing limit!

[Les. Hayward]

Post by Jeff Layman
I might have misheard, but during an interview on the BBC World News
this morning a figure of £13 trillion was mentioned!

It's hard to avoid the sensation of paying the Danegeld here ...

The only sad part about this, is that neither the King or our
illustrious government seems to have the courage to make the appropriate
response, which would simply be "Don't be daft"!

[Davey]

On Fri, 25 Oct 2024 09:17:39 +0100

Post by Les. Hayward

Post by Jeff Layman
I might have misheard, but during an interview on the BBC World
News this morning a figure of £13 trillion was mentioned!

It's hard to avoid the sensation of paying the Danegeld here ...

The only sad part about this, is that neither the King or our
illustrious government seems to have the courage to make the
appropriate response, which would simply be "Don't be daft"!

Where is the late Queen's husband when you need him?

[Norman Wells]

Post by Davey
On Fri, 25 Oct 2024 09:17:39 +0100

Post by Les. Hayward

Post by Jeff Layman
I might have misheard, but during an interview on the BBC World
News this morning a figure of £13 trillion was mentioned!

It's hard to avoid the sensation of paying the Danegeld here ...

The only sad part about this, is that neither the King or our
illustrious government seems to have the courage to make the
appropriate response, which would simply be "Don't be daft"!

Where is the late Queen's husband when you need him?

Or indeed Pressdram when Arkell came begging?

[Vir Campestris]

Post by Jeff Layman
I might have misheard, but during an interview on the BBC World News
this morning a figure of £13 trillion was mentioned!

It's hard to avoid the sensation of paying the Danegeld here ...

It occurred to me that perhaps the native inhabitants of the New World
might like to have their countries back. All the descendants of European
and African peoples should be repatriated to their countries of origin.

Or else the natives should be paid damages according to the value of the
lands they have lost.

No, I'm not serious. But I think some people might be.

Andy

[Jeff Gaines]

Post by Vir Campestris

Post by Jeff Layman
I might have misheard, but during an interview on the BBC World News
this morning a figure of £13 trillion was mentioned!

It's hard to avoid the sensation of paying the Danegeld here ...

It occurred to me that perhaps the native inhabitants of the New World
might like to have their countries back. All the descendants of European
and African peoples should be repatriated to their countries of origin.
Or else the natives should be paid damages according to the value of the
lands they have lost.
No, I'm not serious. But I think some people might be.
Andy

It's a logical consequence of the talk about reparations though. What
about somewhere like New Zealand where first nation was Polynesian if I
understand correctly. Who gets the country and who pays for it?

[Max Demian]

Post by Vir Campestris

Post by Jeff Layman
I might have misheard, but during an interview on the BBC World News
this morning a figure of £13 trillion was mentioned!

It's hard to avoid the sensation of paying the Danegeld here ...

It occurred to me that perhaps the native inhabitants of the New World
might like to have their countries back. All the descendants of European
and African peoples should be repatriated to their countries of origin.
Or else the natives should be paid damages according to the value of the
lands they have lost.

How do we know who the first inhabitants of North America were? The
Incas, the Aztecs or whoever passed through (assuming they migrated via
the Bering land bridge)?

[JNugent]

Post by Max Demian

Post by Vir Campestris

Post by Jeff Layman
I might have misheard, but during an interview on the BBC World News
this morning a figure of £13 trillion was mentioned!

It's hard to avoid the sensation of paying the Danegeld here ...

It occurred to me that perhaps the native inhabitants of the New World
might like to have their countries back. All the descendants of
European and African peoples should be repatriated to their countries
of origin.
Or else the natives should be paid damages according to the value of
the lands they have lost.

How do we know who the first inhabitants of North America were? The
Incas, the Aztecs or whoever passed through (assuming they migrated via
the Bering land bridge)?

Surely the terms "Inca" and Aztec" simply denote cultural groupings
(what we might call tribes), rather than genetic (racial) differences?

Incidentally, Polynesian populations are known to to have travelled
hundreds of miles by boat, island-hopping down the Pacific. Why not the
Incas and Aztecs?

[Norman Wells]

Post by Max Demian

Post by Vir Campestris

Post by Jeff Layman
I might have misheard, but during an interview on the BBC World News
this morning a figure of £13 trillion was mentioned!

It's hard to avoid the sensation of paying the Danegeld here ...

It occurred to me that perhaps the native inhabitants of the New World
might like to have their countries back. All the descendants of
European and African peoples should be repatriated to their countries
of origin.
Or else the natives should be paid damages according to the value of
the lands they have lost.

How do we know who the first inhabitants of North America were? The
Incas, the Aztecs or whoever passed through (assuming they migrated via
the Bering land bridge)?

And what right did they have to 'own' it anyway, except for the fact
that for a time they were presumably savvy and powerful enough to occupy
and defend it. Those have been the accepted criteria throughout history
even to the present day.

There's no unimpeachable right to any territory in perpetuity. If
someone comes along with a bigger stick and takes it, it de facto
becomes theirs.

[Ottavio Caruso]

All the descendants of European [...] peoples should be
repatriated to their countries of origin.

Please no. Imagine all 10-gen Italian Americans with a Tony Soprano
t-shirt flooding Italy! I'd rather have illegal immigrants than them.

[Spike]

[…]

Post by The Todal
Anyway, this might be a good moment to recommend everyone to watch, on
catchup, a Channel 4 documentary "Churchill: Britain's Secret
Apartheid". During WW2 we desperately needed American troops to help us
defeat the Nazis. But America still had a colour-bar - black people were
prohibited from using many bars and restaurants and places of recreation
and it was not unusual for black men to be beaten up or lynched for
dancing or having sex with white women, and for juries to acquit the
perpetrators. So when the Americans came to Britain they expected us to
operate the same colour bar and to prevent black servicemen from using
our pubs and dance halls, and our government secretly tolerated this and
covered up some of the murders of black servicemen by white American
military police. Our own black people faced prejudice and danger from
suspicious white American troops.

Interestingly, there was at least one instructional film made by the US
Army in WWII highlighting the different attitude to blacks in the UK.

Two GIs, one white and one black, are in a compartmented train carriage,
chatting away to an elderly white woman. On arriving at the terminus, the
elderly lady says “How interesting it was to talk to you. It would be nice
if you could *both* visit me sometime”.

The message was, of course, that the UK had no colour prejudices, so watch
your behaviour. Presumably these attitudes came in during the post-war
period.

[…]

[JNugent]

Post by Jeff Gaines
There is a suggestion that the question of reparations for slavery may
come up at the Commonwealth Conference.
Is there a legal basis for reparation claims in English or International
law?

And what about reparations for the United Kingdom famine of the
1840/1850s (limited to Ireland)?

[Roger Hayter]

Post by JNugent

Post by Jeff Gaines
There is a suggestion that the question of reparations for slavery may
come up at the Commonwealth Conference.
Is there a legal basis for reparation claims in English or International
law?

And what about reparations for the United Kingdom famine of the
1840/1850s (limited to Ireland)?

Some sort of apology from the UK government for the Irish famine is overdue.
It is unclear to me quite how it happened, and whether it was deliberate, or
at least the failure to provide aid was deliberate. I wouldn't wholly dismiss
the idea of reparations. What happened to the land holdings in Ireland of the
English aristocracy when the free state was given independence? Did they
keep them or were they compensated? An obvious place to look for funding
reparations.

Or was that not what you meant?

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by JNugent

Post by Jeff Gaines
There is a suggestion that the question of reparations for slavery may
come up at the Commonwealth Conference.
Is there a legal basis for reparation claims in English or International
law?

And what about reparations for the United Kingdom famine of the
1840/1850s (limited to Ireland)?

Some sort of apology from the UK government for the Irish famine is overdue.
It is unclear to me quite how it happened, and whether it was deliberate, or
at least the failure to provide aid was deliberate. I wouldn't wholly dismiss
the idea of reparations. What happened to the land holdings in Ireland of the
English aristocracy when the free state was given independence? Did they
keep them or were they compensated? An obvious place to look for funding
reparations.
Or was that not what you meant?

I cannot vouch for the accuracy of the figures, but relief for the
indigent poor was provided by each parish.
If someone feels that blame should attach to the UK government as a
whole, then the relevant department would be the Home Office.

At that time, the total manpower of the Home office was 46[1] people -
most of whom would be copy clerks.
What action this group could have taken is not clear.

Famines also happened in England (but certainly not as severe) and the
UK central government took exactly the same action to mitigate them -
i.e. nothing.

[1] That figure is not accurate, but it is not too far off the mark.

[Norman Wells]

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by JNugent

Post by Jeff Gaines
There is a suggestion that the question of reparations for slavery may
come up at the Commonwealth Conference.
Is there a legal basis for reparation claims in English or International
law?

And what about reparations for the United Kingdom famine of the
1840/1850s (limited to Ireland)?

Some sort of apology from the UK government for the Irish famine is overdue.
It is unclear to me quite how it happened, and whether it was deliberate, or
at least the failure to provide aid was deliberate. I wouldn't wholly dismiss
the idea of reparations.

I would, out of hand.

The UK government is not responsible for potato blight any more than it
is for the weather.

The whole idea of compensation for whatever happened long ago is
absolutely absurd. History happens. If there's anything to learn,
learn it and move on, but pay no attention at all to bleating
compensation demands which now seem to be part of some nation's cultures
as an excuse for their own indolence and failings. A bit of free cash
if you can get it is never unwelcome, is it?

I blame the parents of those involved personally.

[JNugent]

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by JNugent

Post by Jeff Gaines
There is a suggestion that the question of reparations for slavery may
come up at the Commonwealth Conference.
Is there a legal basis for reparation claims in English or International
law?

And what about reparations for the United Kingdom famine of the
1840/1850s (limited to Ireland)?

Some sort of apology from the UK government for the Irish famine is overdue.

That might already have happened.

Apologies are not reparations. The population of Ireland was greatly
reduced by the direct effects of the 1940s UK famine (limited as it was
to Ireland) and by the ensuing vast emigration of Irish people to the
USA, Canada, and other parts of the Anglosphere. The effects are still
felt today, in various ways.

Post by Roger Hayter
It is unclear to me quite how it happened, and whether it was deliberate, or
at least the failure to provide aid was deliberate.

It wasn't deliberate.

The failure to provide aid was deliberate, but was not unusual. It would
have been the same if the UK famine had been limited to Scotland, or to
the north of England. Perhaps even, though I'm not so sure about this
one, if it had impacted the Home Counties.

Post by Roger Hayter
I wouldn't wholly dismiss
the idea of reparations. What happened to the land holdings in Ireland of the
English aristocracy when the free state was given independence? Did they
keep them or were they compensated? An obvious place to look for funding
reparations.

I have no reason to believe that any Irish government has seized land
from anyone (except in the normal lawful way, common to western
democracies, for slum redevelopment, road-building, etc).

Post by Roger Hayter
Or was that not what you meant?

Do you seriously think that I favour the confiscation of private
property, especially on a racial basis?

[Max Demian]

Conversely, why do the ‘oil rich’ countries and those like India - which
has more millionaires than the UK- not do more to offer aid to areas which
profess to need it?

More to the point, why do we give aid to a country with nuclear weapons
and a space programme?

[Roger Hayter]

Post by Max Demian

Conversely, why do the ‘oil rich’ countries and those like India - which
has more millionaires than the UK- not do more to offer aid to areas which
profess to need it?

More to the point, why do we give aid to a country with nuclear weapons
and a space programme?

Not all, but a high proportion of aid is tied to purchasing things from us,
and the rest is aimed at acquiring power and influence. It is somewhat naive
to look at foreign aid as a form of charity.

[RJH]

Conversely, why do the ‘oil rich’ countries and those like India - which
has more millionaires than the UK- not do more to offer aid to areas which
profess to need it?

Rather a misleading statistic. India has one of the smallest %s of 'net worth'
millionaires/adult population - 0.1%. UK 5.8% ($ millions) - probably more by
virtue of the million-odd homes worth $1m+.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_millionaires

[Norman Wells]

The English didn’t cause the famine, it was largely due to potato blight.
At the time, the concept of ‘aid’ in such circumstances wasn’t common. Had
the same thing happened in England, people would have starved here.
Conversely, why do the ‘oil rich’ countries and those like India - which
has more millionaires than the UK- not do more to offer aid to areas which
profess to need it?

Clearly because we're not giving India enough of our wealth for it to
pass on.

After all, only £2.3 billion in UK aid went to India between 2016 and
2021, probably funding their space programme.

Equally, many Common Wealth countries have huge potential - they simply
aren’t exploiting it. It is easier to ask and get aid.

It's all part of blame and compensation culture I'm afraid.

[Max Demian]

Post by JNugent

Post by Jeff Gaines
There is a suggestion that the question of reparations for slavery may
come up at the Commonwealth Conference.
Is there a legal basis for reparation claims in English or
International law?

And what about reparations for the United Kingdom famine of the
1840/1850s (limited to Ireland)?

No, that wasn't our fault. That was the fault of Phytophthora infestans.

[JNugent]

Post by Max Demian

Post by JNugent

Post by Jeff Gaines
There is a suggestion that the question of reparations for slavery
may come up at the Commonwealth Conference.
Is there a legal basis for reparation claims in English or
International law?

And what about reparations for the United Kingdom famine of the
1840/1850s (limited to Ireland)?

No, that wasn't our fault. That was the fault of Phytophthora infestans.

Only to the extent that the Treasury of the United Kingdom had no duty
to relieve famine wherever in the Kingdom it was encountered.

[Martin Harran]

On Fri, 25 Oct 2024 12:09:25 +0100, Max Demian

Post by Max Demian

Post by JNugent

Post by Jeff Gaines
There is a suggestion that the question of reparations for slavery may
come up at the Commonwealth Conference.
Is there a legal basis for reparation claims in English or
International law?

And what about reparations for the United Kingdom famine of the
1840/1850s (limited to Ireland)?

No, that wasn't our fault. That was the fault of Phytophthora infestans.

Combined with the continued removal of alternative foodstuffs to GB so
that the pockets of the absentee landlords would not get any lighter.