PCSOs and handcuffs

[Nick Odell]

Last weekend I noticed for the first time that the PCSOs of British
Transport Police sport handcuffs as part of their standard kit.
Looking it up on Wikipedia I see that BTP and North Wales Police both
allow this.

Do BTP and/or North Wales Police PCSOs have enhanced powers of arrest
or, like I suppose all other forces, do their PCSOs only have the same
powers of arrest as you[1] or I[2]

Assuming the latter, if PCSOs may carry handcuffs to enforce an
ordinary citizen's arrest, may I carry handcuffs, just in case I come
upon a citizen's-arrestable situation?

Nick
[1]For the purposes of my argument I'm presuming that 'you' are not a
police officer
[2]IANAPO

[Roland Perry]

Post by Nick Odell
Last weekend I noticed for the first time that the PCSOs of British
Transport Police sport handcuffs as part of their standard kit.
Looking it up on Wikipedia I see that BTP and North Wales Police both
allow this.
Do BTP and/or North Wales Police PCSOs have enhanced powers of arrest
or, like I suppose all other forces, do their PCSOs only have the same
powers of arrest as you[1] or I[2]
Assuming the latter, if PCSOs may carry handcuffs to enforce an
ordinary citizen's arrest, may I carry handcuffs, just in case I come
upon a citizen's-arrestable situation?

It might just be "security theatre", that they aren't allowed to use.
Which raises the question "is anyone allowed to indulge in such
theatre"?

[Mark Goodge]

On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 14:20:03 +0000, Nick Odell put finger to keyboard and

Post by Nick Odell
Last weekend I noticed for the first time that the PCSOs of British
Transport Police sport handcuffs as part of their standard kit.
Looking it up on Wikipedia I see that BTP and North Wales Police both
allow this.
Do BTP and/or North Wales Police PCSOs have enhanced powers of arrest
or, like I suppose all other forces, do their PCSOs only have the same
powers of arrest as you[1] or I[2]

Schedule 4 Part 1 of the Police Reform Act 2002 granted the power to
detain, and the right to use reasonable force in order to detain, to all
authorised PCSOs (not just BTP and North Wales).

In practice, most forces haven't authorised their PCSOs to use those
powers, either because they haven't felt the need, or think it would be bad
PR, or because it would provoke objections from constables who fear losing
their jobs, or they don't want the hassle of training PCSOs to the
additional standards necessary for them to be authorised to use Schedule 4
powers. BTP and North Wales clearly think differently, and a quick Google
suggests that other forces are beginning to move in the same direction.

Mark

[Zapp Brannigan]

Post by Mark Goodge
On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 14:20:03 +0000, Nick Odell put finger to keyboard and

Post by Nick Odell
Last weekend I noticed for the first time that the PCSOs of British
Transport Police sport handcuffs as part of their standard kit.
Looking it up on Wikipedia I see that BTP and North Wales Police both
allow this.
Do BTP and/or North Wales Police PCSOs have enhanced powers of arrest
or, like I suppose all other forces, do their PCSOs only have the same
powers of arrest as you[1] or I[2]

Schedule 4 Part 1 of the Police Reform Act 2002 granted the power to
detain, and the right to use reasonable force in order to detain, to all
authorised PCSOs (not just BTP and North Wales).

What a mess. All these PCSO's, HATO's, Wardens and Accredited Persons
etc. All with different powers, depending on what role they have, in what
area, for what activities. A citizen challenged by such a person can have
no idea what the applicable rights, powers and duties are. If a store
detective says he has the power to search you and refusal is a criminal
offence, what is an honest citizen supposed to do?

We should go back to having sworn constables for all functions, in my view.

[d***@gmail.com]

Post by Zapp Brannigan
If a store
detective says he has the power to search you and refusal is a criminal
offence, what is an honest citizen supposed to do?

If a police constable said the same thing, would the honest citizen have any better idea of whether the statement was correct?

[Roland Perry]

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by Zapp Brannigan
If a store
detective says he has the power to search you and refusal is a criminal
offence, what is an honest citizen supposed to do?

If a police constable said the same thing, would the honest citizen have
any better idea of whether the statement was correct?

Yes, because constables' powers are the same everywhere, but the
plastic-police have different powers in different places.

[d***@gmail.com]

Post by Roland Perry
Yes, because constables' powers are the same everywhere

I suspect your local constables' powers are different from my local constables' powers.

And different again if, say, you've strayed into an area designated under s.44 of the Terrorism Act 2000.

[Mark Goodge]

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by Roland Perry
Yes, because constables' powers are the same everywhere

I suspect your local constables' powers are different from my local constables' powers.

No, they're not. A constable's powers are regulated by statute, and cannot
be varied by individual police forces.

Post by d***@gmail.com
And different again if, say, you've strayed into an area designated under s.44 of the Terrorism Act 2000.

The powers are the same everywhere. But not all of them are applicable
everywhere.

Mark

[Janet]

Post by Mark Goodge

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by Roland Perry
Yes, because constables' powers are the same everywhere

I suspect your local constables' powers are different from my local constables' powers.

No, they're not. A constable's powers are regulated by statute, and cannot
be varied by individual police forces.

Policing in Scotland is a devolved issue.

Janet

[l***@gmail.com]

Post by Mark Goodge
No, they're not. A constable's powers are regulated by statute, and cannot
be varied by individual police forces.

Yes they can e.g. S60 Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994. This allows an Inspector or above to specify an area for random stop/searches WITHOUT ANY grounds what so ever to search for weapons in anticipation of violence. This can be for up to 24 hours.

Also, think about it - each local council has adopted various traffic/parking laws that may be different within a county for example. E.g. dealing with abandoned or vehicles for sale

[Roland Perry]

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by Roland Perry
Yes, because constables' powers are the same everywhere

I suspect your local constables' powers are different from my local constables' powers.

Can you give any examples?

Post by d***@gmail.com
And different again if, say, you've strayed into an area designated under s.44 of the Terrorism Act 2000.

Surely every constable would have equal powers in those circumstances.

[d***@gmail.com]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by d***@gmail.com
I suspect your local constables' powers are different from my local constables' powers.

Can you give any examples?

Assuming you're in England - greater powers in Scotland to demand your name and address; the distinction in Scotland between arrest and detention; no PACE in Scotland. No doubt quite a few other things given that the powers mostly derive from different statutes.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by d***@gmail.com
And different again if, say, you've strayed into an area designated under s.44 of the Terrorism Act 2000.

Surely every constable would have equal powers in those circumstances.

Yes, but I was really getting at whether the average citizen would know whether it was true that the powers existed in a particular incident.

[Mark Goodge]

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by Zapp Brannigan
If a store
detective says he has the power to search you and refusal is a criminal
offence, what is an honest citizen supposed to do?

If a police constable said the same thing, would the honest citizen have any better idea of whether the statement was correct?

The rules which apply to constables are at least consistent. A constable
has exactly the same powers irrespective of which force employs him,
because they are inherent in the constabulary itself rather than being
subject to the individual police forces. It may be hard to keep up to date
with all that a constable may do, but if you do know what one constable may
do then you know what all of them may do.

The problem with PCSOs and other accredited civilians is that their
authorised powers can vary from force to force, and even within forces
according to the level of training that the accredited civilian has
received. There are, according to my local police force, 20 standard powers
for PCSOs and 21 powers that are at the discretion of the Chief Constable.
The only way to know which of those 21 may be exercised by any random PCSO
you may encounter is to be familiar with the websites and press releases of
every force in the country.

Mark

[Zapp Brannigan]

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by Zapp Brannigan
If a store
detective says he has the power to search you and refusal is a criminal
offence, what is an honest citizen supposed to do?

If a police constable said the same thing, would the honest citizen have
any better idea of whether the statement was correct?

Probably, yes. A responsible, honest citizen has an approximate idea of
police powers.

Furthermore, if the police officer had lied the citizen would have some
realistic recourse in law. If a "warden" or "accredited person"
misrepresents their powers, good luck getting any sort of justice from that.
Your only rights are to sue them individually, or via their skanky security
firm employers.

[John Briggs]

Post by Zapp Brannigan

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by Zapp Brannigan
If a store
detective says he has the power to search you and refusal is a criminal
offence, what is an honest citizen supposed to do?

If a police constable said the same thing, would the honest citizen
have any better idea of whether the statement was correct?

Probably, yes. A responsible, honest citizen has an approximate idea
of police powers.
Furthermore, if the police officer had lied the citizen would have some
realistic recourse in law.

Well, as recent (and ongoing) event have shown, only if you record what
the police officer said.

[Robin]

Post by Zapp Brannigan
Furthermore, if the police officer had lied the citizen would have
some realistic recourse in law. If a "warden" or "accredited person"
misrepresents their powers, good luck getting any sort of justice
from that. Your only rights are to sue them individually, or via
their skanky security firm employers.

And to add insult, the 2002 Act imposes no requirement for bonds or
insurance for Community Safety Accreditation Schemes so action against
the employee or employer might well prove futile. At least the police
are unlikely to go into liquidation before you can enforce judgment.

[Tim Watts]

On Saturday 02 November 2013 16:00 Zapp Brannigan wrote in

Post by Zapp Brannigan
A citizen challenged by such a person can
have
no idea what the applicable rights, powers and duties are. If a store
detective says he has the power to search you and refusal is a criminal
offence, what is an honest citizen supposed to do?

If it were me, refuse to deal with them and tell them if they feel a crime
has been comitted, then call a "real policeman" (that really winds them up).

Give them a time limit then bugger off.

Post by Zapp Brannigan
We should go back to having sworn constables for all functions, in my view.

I agree. I assume any non constable has no more powers than Joe Citizen.
Even if that's not technically true, then tough...

[Mark Goodge]

On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 20:25:06 +0000, Tim Watts put finger to keyboard and

Post by Tim Watts
I agree. I assume any non constable has no more powers than Joe Citizen.
Even if that's not technically true, then tough...

The problem is that it's not true. And, given that the powers that some
non-constables have include the power to detain and the power to use force
in order to detain, a false assumption of that nature may be more likely to
be tough for you than for them.

Mark

[Tim Watts]

Post by Mark Goodge
On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 20:25:06 +0000, Tim Watts put finger to keyboard and

Post by Tim Watts
I agree. I assume any non constable has no more powers than Joe Citizen.
Even if that's not technically true, then tough...

The problem is that it's not true. And, given that the powers that some
non-constables have include the power to detain and the power to use force
in order to detain, a false assumption of that nature may be more likely
to be tough for you than for them.
Mark

Depends how strong they are :)

I would call their bluff but refuse to cooperate with them, only with a
"real policeman". Same with store detectives...

[Mark Goodge]

On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 23:35:05 +0000, Tim Watts put finger to keyboard and

Post by Tim Watts

Post by Mark Goodge
On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 20:25:06 +0000, Tim Watts put finger to keyboard and

Post by Tim Watts
I agree. I assume any non constable has no more powers than Joe Citizen.
Even if that's not technically true, then tough...

The problem is that it's not true. And, given that the powers that some
non-constables have include the power to detain and the power to use force
in order to detain, a false assumption of that nature may be more likely
to be tough for you than for them.
Mark

Depends how strong they are :)

If you fight back then it could well get worse for you, as that's likely to
be construed as assault.

Mark

[Tim Watts]

Post by Mark Goodge
On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 23:35:05 +0000, Tim Watts put finger to keyboard and

On Saturday 02 November 2013 21:00 Mark Goodge wrote in

Post by Mark Goodge
On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 20:25:06 +0000, Tim Watts put finger to keyboard and

Post by Tim Watts
I agree. I assume any non constable has no more powers than Joe Citizen.
Even if that's not technically true, then tough...

The problem is that it's not true. And, given that the powers that some
non-constables have include the power to detain and the power to use
force in order to detain, a false assumption of that nature may be more
likely to be tough for you than for them.
Mark

Depends how strong they are :)

If you fight back then it could well get worse for you, as that's likely
to be construed as assault.
Mark

Or resisting could cause them to commit assult. Works either way.

Prolly best to know some Judo which is good for relatively non offensive
defensive moves...

[s***@gmail.com]

Post by Tim Watts
Prolly best to know some Judo which is good for relatively non offensive
defensive moves...

stop bothering about Judo, learn Sambo

[Tosspot]

Post by Tim Watts

Post by Mark Goodge
On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 20:25:06 +0000, Tim Watts put finger to keyboard and

Post by Tim Watts
I agree. I assume any non constable has no more powers than Joe Citizen.
Even if that's not technically true, then tough...

The problem is that it's not true. And, given that the powers that some
non-constables have include the power to detain and the power to use force
in order to detain, a false assumption of that nature may be more likely
to be tough for you than for them.
Mark

Depends how strong they are :)
I would call their bluff but refuse to cooperate with them, only with a
"real policeman". Same with store detectives...

That has been my approach in the past with both PCSOs and store
'detectives'. It hasn't got me in to any trouble.

I should point out that although I am by nature obstreperous, a
reasonable request I'll always answer. E.g. I leave a shop without
using the checkout lanes, being stopped and asked why is likely to
elicit the "I didn't buy anything/I was returning goods" answer.
Getting the "Blahblah, I suspect blah search blahblah criminal record"
will elicit the "Go on then, I have time, call the cops, but you aren't
going to touch me, and consider yourself lucky I don't just keep
walking". PCSOs the same, if I've done something, fair cop, if they've
randomly stopped me, which always seems to be the case, then I don't
even deign to speak.

[Zapp Brannigan]

Post by Tim Watts
On Saturday 02 November 2013 16:00 Zapp Brannigan wrote in

Post by Zapp Brannigan
A citizen challenged by such a person can
have
no idea what the applicable rights, powers and duties are. If a store
detective says he has the power to search you and refusal is a criminal
offence, what is an honest citizen supposed to do?

If it were me, refuse to deal with them and tell them if they feel a crime
has been comitted, then call a "real policeman" (that really winds them up).
Give them a time limit then bugger off.

Morally I agree with you, but thanks to Blunkett & Blair we might be
committing a criminal offence by disobeying the instructions of a shop
guard, pub bouncer or park warden.

[Dr Zoidberg]

Post by Nick Odell
Last weekend I noticed for the first time that the PCSOs of British
Transport Police sport handcuffs as part of their standard kit.
Looking it up on Wikipedia I see that BTP and North Wales Police both
allow this.
Do BTP and/or North Wales Police PCSOs have enhanced powers of arrest
or, like I suppose all other forces, do their PCSOs only have the same
powers of arrest as you[1] or I[2]
Assuming the latter, if PCSOs may carry handcuffs to enforce an
ordinary citizen's arrest, may I carry handcuffs, just in case I come
upon a citizen's-arrestable situation?

Yes. There is no specific law against carrying handcuffs.

[Ian Jackson]

Post by Dr Zoidberg

Post by Nick Odell
Last weekend I noticed for the first time that the PCSOs of British
Transport Police sport handcuffs as part of their standard kit.
Looking it up on Wikipedia I see that BTP and North Wales Police both
allow this.
Do BTP and/or North Wales Police PCSOs have enhanced powers of arrest
or, like I suppose all other forces, do their PCSOs only have the same
powers of arrest as you[1] or I[2]
Assuming the latter, if PCSOs may carry handcuffs to enforce an
ordinary citizen's arrest, may I carry handcuffs, just in case I come
upon a citizen's-arrestable situation?

Yes. There is no specific law against carrying handcuffs.

Handcuffs today, tasers tomorrow, guns the day after tomorrow?