Discussion:
Bonfire of Vanities Redux
(too old to reply)
Martin Harran
2024-12-15 17:21:26 UTC
Permalink
Two and a half years ago, Liz Truss, then PM, promised a bonfire of
European legislation and gave the matches to Jacob Rees-Mogg who said
that there were 2400 pieces of legislation involved. Rishi Sunak
backed this up when he took office and pledged to review or repeal
every bit of retained European law lurking in British statutes within
100 days of taking office.

How many of those pieces of legislation have been abolished or
modified?
Roland Perry
2024-12-16 09:36:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Harran
Two and a half years ago, Liz Truss, then PM, promised a bonfire of
European legislation and gave the matches to Jacob Rees-Mogg who said
that there were 2400 pieces of legislation involved. Rishi Sunak
backed this up when he took office and pledged to review or repeal
every bit of retained European law lurking in British statutes within
100 days of taking office.
How many of those pieces of legislation have been abolished or
modified?
Very few, if any, I expect. At the time of the referendum it was
estimated that the exercise to go through all that legislation (and
replace the useful bits with home-grown clones) would take ten years.
--
Roland Perry
Andy Burns
2024-12-16 10:35:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Martin Harran
How many of those pieces of legislation have been abolished or
modified?
Very few, if any, I expect.
Pt1 is a list of sun-setted EU legislation and Pt2 is a list of retained
EU legislation ...

<https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2023/28/schedule/1#tgp1-tbl1-thd3-tr1-th1>
Roland Perry
2024-12-16 15:08:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Martin Harran
How many of those pieces of legislation have been abolished or
modified?
Very few, if any, I expect.
Pt1 is a list of sun-setted EU legislation and Pt2 is a list of
retained EU legislation ...
<https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2023/28/schedule/1#tgp1-tbl1-thd3-
tr1-th1>
OK, so lots to chew over there. eg

"Loading and Unloading of Fishing Vessels Regulations 1988" should that
have been revoked anyway, irrespective of us leaving the EU?

I think the original estimate was a few tens of thousands of
regulations/decisions needing attention, so we do at least have a tip of
an iceberg here.
--
Roland Perry
Martin Harran
2024-12-16 15:20:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Martin Harran
How many of those pieces of legislation have been abolished or
modified?
Very few, if any, I expect.
Pt1 is a list of sun-setted EU legislation and Pt2 is a list of retained
EU legislation ...
<https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2023/28/schedule/1#tgp1-tbl1-thd3-tr1-th1>
Which items have been signicantly altered from what the EU legislation
specified?
Andy Burns
2024-12-16 17:47:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Harran
Which items have been signicantly altered from what the EU legislation
specified?
Do you want to check the text of 587 pieces of legislation?
Me neither.

The few I looked at have been totally nuked, with a comment "There are
currently no known outstanding effects by [blah]"

No mention of bananas.
Martin Harran
2024-12-16 18:30:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Martin Harran
Which items have been signicantly altered from what the EU legislation
specified?
Do you want to check the text of 587 pieces of legislation?
Me neither.
The few I looked at have been totally nuked, with a comment "There are
currently no known outstanding effects by [blah]"
No mention of bananas.
Forgive the slight mixing of metaphors but sounds like the promised
bonfire turned out to be a damp squib.
Nick Odell
2024-12-17 13:23:57 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 18:30:13 +0000, Martin Harran
Post by Martin Harran
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Martin Harran
Which items have been signicantly altered from what the EU legislation
specified?
Do you want to check the text of 587 pieces of legislation?
Me neither.
The few I looked at have been totally nuked, with a comment "There are
currently no known outstanding effects by [blah]"
No mention of bananas.
Forgive the slight mixing of metaphors but sounds like the promised
bonfire turned out to be a damp squib.
Meanwhile, in Colorado, Gov Jared Polis is channeling his inner Javier
Minei[1] and literally cutting up redundant legislation.
<https://www.denverpost.com/2024/12/12/jared-polis-rescind-executive-orders-circular-saw/>


Nick
[1]<https://www.politico.eu/article/argentina-elects-a-far-right-chainsaw-wielding-president/>
The Todal
2024-12-23 11:13:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Harran
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Martin Harran
Which items have been signicantly altered from what the EU legislation
specified?
Do you want to check the text of 587 pieces of legislation?
Me neither.
The few I looked at have been totally nuked, with a comment "There are
currently no known outstanding effects by [blah]"
No mention of bananas.
Forgive the slight mixing of metaphors but sounds like the promised
bonfire turned out to be a damp squib.
If I remember rightly, the main theme of the Bonfire of the EU
legislation was to remove allegedly pointless health and safety rules
for workplaces, foodstuffs, products and systems of work.

Perhaps the lawmakers have had pause for thought now that we've had the
Grenfell Tower fire, imported lithium batteries that burst into flames
and burn down homes, damp and mouldy social housing, raw sewage in our
rivers and watercourses, microplastics in our food, increasing numbers
of workers who are affected by workplace stress and burnout because one
person is now expected to do the work of three or four.

We need more, not fewer, health and safety regulations. I daresay the
USA does not currently plan to send us chlorinated chicken but it
doesn't make that junk food more palatable if you pass a law saying that
it's delicious.

The man who persuaded the nation to vote for Brexit was Boris Johnson
and he was the one who Got Brexit Done by expelling Tory MPs from the
Party if they disagreed with him and producing a Parliament of loyal
followers who did what they were told.

It still amazes me that this amiable buffoon, who caused more damage to
our nation than any Prime Minister in our history, is still able to walk
down the street without being pelted with excrement. And he still plans
to make a comeback as a future leader of his party.
Max Demian
2024-12-23 11:54:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Post by Martin Harran
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Martin Harran
Which items have been signicantly altered from what the EU legislation
specified?
Do you want to check the text of 587 pieces of legislation?
Me neither.
The few I looked at have been totally nuked, with a comment "There are
currently no known outstanding effects by [blah]"
No mention of bananas.
Forgive the slight mixing of metaphors but sounds like the promised
bonfire turned out to be a damp squib.
If I remember rightly, the main theme of the Bonfire of the EU
legislation was to remove allegedly pointless health and safety rules
for workplaces, foodstuffs, products and systems of work.
No, the idea is that we have our *own* pointless health and safety rules.

And we want our 10 volts back.
--
Max Demian
Roger Hayter
2024-12-23 11:59:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Max Demian
Post by The Todal
Post by Martin Harran
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Martin Harran
Which items have been signicantly altered from what the EU legislation
specified?
Do you want to check the text of 587 pieces of legislation?
Me neither.
The few I looked at have been totally nuked, with a comment "There are
currently no known outstanding effects by [blah]"
No mention of bananas.
Forgive the slight mixing of metaphors but sounds like the promised
bonfire turned out to be a damp squib.
If I remember rightly, the main theme of the Bonfire of the EU
legislation was to remove allegedly pointless health and safety rules
for workplaces, foodstuffs, products and systems of work.
No, the idea is that we have our *own* pointless health and safety rules.
And we want our 10 volts back.
We never lost them! We just pretended they weren't there.
--
Roger Hayter
Max Demian
2024-12-23 17:34:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Max Demian
Post by The Todal
If I remember rightly, the main theme of the Bonfire of the EU
legislation was to remove allegedly pointless health and safety rules
for workplaces, foodstuffs, products and systems of work.
No, the idea is that we have our *own* pointless health and safety rules.
And we want our 10 volts back.
We never lost them! We just pretended they weren't there.
*They* pretended they weren't there.
--
Max Demian
Roger Hayter
2024-12-23 20:21:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Max Demian
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Max Demian
Post by The Todal
If I remember rightly, the main theme of the Bonfire of the EU
legislation was to remove allegedly pointless health and safety rules
for workplaces, foodstuffs, products and systems of work.
No, the idea is that we have our *own* pointless health and safety rules.
And we want our 10 volts back.
We never lost them! We just pretended they weren't there.
*They* pretended they weren't there.
Not at all, they deliberately stretched their definition of 230V to include
240V!
--
Roger Hayter
Jon Ribbens
2024-12-24 12:21:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Max Demian
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Max Demian
Post by The Todal
If I remember rightly, the main theme of the Bonfire of the EU
legislation was to remove allegedly pointless health and safety rules
for workplaces, foodstuffs, products and systems of work.
No, the idea is that we have our *own* pointless health and safety rules.
And we want our 10 volts back.
We never lost them! We just pretended they weren't there.
*They* pretended they weren't there.
Not at all, they deliberately stretched their definition of 230V to include
240V!
That's the point surely, they could pretend that all EU countries were
the same at 230V while we actually stayed at 240V.
Roger Hayter
2024-12-24 13:11:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Max Demian
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Max Demian
Post by The Todal
If I remember rightly, the main theme of the Bonfire of the EU
legislation was to remove allegedly pointless health and safety rules
for workplaces, foodstuffs, products and systems of work.
No, the idea is that we have our *own* pointless health and safety rules.
And we want our 10 volts back.
We never lost them! We just pretended they weren't there.
*They* pretended they weren't there.
Not at all, they deliberately stretched their definition of 230V to include
240V!
That's the point surely, they could pretend that all EU countries were
the same at 230V while we actually stayed at 240V.
Not really - the point was not pretending or holding opinions, the point was
that if everything was manufactured for the public specified range of "230V"
then it worked here just as well as there. It is an engineering standard, not
a political slogan!
--
Roger Hayter
Max Demian
2024-12-24 18:07:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Max Demian
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Max Demian
And we want our 10 volts back.
We never lost them! We just pretended they weren't there.
*They* pretended they weren't there.
Not at all, they deliberately stretched their definition of 230V to include
240V!
That's the point surely, they could pretend that all EU countries were
the same at 230V while we actually stayed at 240V.
As bad as the bananas.
Post by Roger Hayter
Not really - the point was not pretending or holding opinions, the point was
that if everything was manufactured for the public specified range of "230V"
then it worked here just as well as there. It is an engineering standard, not
a political slogan!
Are you saying that manufacturers *had* to make devices that would cope
with 200-250V (or whatever the range was) even if they only intended to
sell stuff in the UK?

What if they wanted to use a linear rather than a switch mode power
supply (the former may require a much narrower range of voltage).

Would they need to/were they allowed to have a supply voltage switch
like old valve radios had on the back?
--
Max Demian
Roger Hayter
2024-12-24 19:39:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Max Demian
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Max Demian
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Max Demian
And we want our 10 volts back.
We never lost them! We just pretended they weren't there.
*They* pretended they weren't there.
Not at all, they deliberately stretched their definition of 230V to include
240V!
That's the point surely, they could pretend that all EU countries were
the same at 230V while we actually stayed at 240V.
As bad as the bananas.
Post by Roger Hayter
Not really - the point was not pretending or holding opinions, the point was
that if everything was manufactured for the public specified range of "230V"
then it worked here just as well as there. It is an engineering standard, not
a political slogan!
Are you saying that manufacturers *had* to make devices that would cope
with 200-250V (or whatever the range was) even if they only intended to
sell stuff in the UK?
That would be true from the Anglo-centric POV. Perhaps rather more
importantly, they were supposed to provide this range even if the UK were an
unimportant part of their market.
Post by Max Demian
What if they wanted to use a linear rather than a switch mode power
supply (the former may require a much narrower range of voltage).
Would they need to/were they allowed to have a supply voltage switch
like old valve radios had on the back?
Presumably, if such power supplies existed any more.
--
Roger Hayter
Spike
2024-12-23 16:28:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Max Demian
Post by The Todal
Post by Martin Harran
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Martin Harran
Which items have been signicantly altered from what the EU legislation
specified?
Do you want to check the text of 587 pieces of legislation?
Me neither.
The few I looked at have been totally nuked, with a comment "There are
currently no known outstanding effects by [blah]"
No mention of bananas.
Forgive the slight mixing of metaphors but sounds like the promised
bonfire turned out to be a damp squib.
If I remember rightly, the main theme of the Bonfire of the EU
legislation was to remove allegedly pointless health and safety rules
for workplaces, foodstuffs, products and systems of work.
No, the idea is that we have our *own* pointless health and safety rules.
And we want our 10 volts back.
Due to a sleight of hand that involved the stroke of a pen, the volts were
only ‘lost’ by changing the nominal voltage and widening the tolerance on
the supply. They can be ‘found’ again just as easily. Similar things happen
in the financial world, such as when the current Chancellor turned a debt
into billions she could spend.

“24 October 2024
Updated 25 October 2024

The government will change its self-imposed debt rules in order to free up
billions for infrastructure spending, the chancellor has told the BBC.

Rachel Reeves said that she would make a technical change to the way debt
is measured which will allow it to fund extra investment”.

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg745ggn3no.amp>
--
Spike
Norman Wells
2024-12-24 09:03:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Spike
Post by Max Demian
Post by The Todal
If I remember rightly, the main theme of the Bonfire of the EU
legislation was to remove allegedly pointless health and safety rules
for workplaces, foodstuffs, products and systems of work.
No, the idea is that we have our *own* pointless health and safety rules.
And we want our 10 volts back.
Due to a sleight of hand that involved the stroke of a pen, the volts were
only ‘lost’ by changing the nominal voltage and widening the tolerance on
the supply. They can be ‘found’ again just as easily.
We can still afford to lose another 120 volts or so before we descend
into the third world like the USA.

So, it's not that important.
Norman Wells
2024-12-23 12:24:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Todal
We need more, not fewer, health and safety regulations. I daresay the
USA does not currently plan to send us chlorinated chicken but it
doesn't make that junk food more palatable if you pass a law saying that
it's delicious.
Point of order, Mr Chairman, 'chlorinating' chicken *is* a health and
safety measure. It removes many of the harmful bacteria that are
naturally present through chickens being neither the brightest nor most
hygienic of creatures. They tend to poo rather a lot over whatever they
like, and don't clean up after themselves.

Since chicken in the UK is the most common source of food poisoning
here, it would be a very sensible health and safety measure that we
should introduce. And we now can because we've left the EU where, for
no sensible or scientific reason, it is banned.

It's worth noting too that 'chlorinating' the chicken just means washing
the raw meat in a slightly stronger solution of chlorine than we
currently drink out of our taps or have in our swimming pools. There is
absolutely zero effect on its taste; it's merely safer and healthier.

By the way, if you're an advocate of free trade deals, it would be
rather difficult to refuse to accept it from countries that perfectly
reasonably do it.
Jethro_uk
2024-12-23 13:42:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Todal
It still amazes me that this amiable buffoon, who caused more damage to
our nation than any Prime Minister in our history, is still able to walk
down the street without being pelted with excrement. And he still plans
to make a comeback as a future leader of his party.
To be fair, Churchill spent a long time "in the wilderness". And it's an
open secret that Boris sees himself as some sort of heir to that mantle.
Roger Hayter
2024-12-23 16:52:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by The Todal
It still amazes me that this amiable buffoon, who caused more damage to
our nation than any Prime Minister in our history, is still able to walk
down the street without being pelted with excrement. And he still plans
to make a comeback as a future leader of his party.
To be fair, Churchill spent a long time "in the wilderness". And it's an
open secret that Boris sees himself as some sort of heir to that mantle.
Perhaps he is hoping for World War III, and his Destiny.
--
Roger Hayter
Jeff Gaines
2024-12-23 14:49:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Harran
Forgive the slight mixing of metaphors but sounds like the promised
bonfire turned out to be a damp squib.
If I remember rightly, the main theme of the Bonfire of the EU legislation
was to remove allegedly pointless health and safety rules for workplaces,
foodstuffs, products and systems of work.
At some stage one of our governments, I think the last Conservative, made
a fairly low key announcement that changes would be dealt with "as and
when" rather than in one big bonfire. Makes a lot more sense.
--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his friends for his
life.
(Jeremy Thorpe, 1962)
Ian Jackson
2024-12-23 15:09:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Gaines
Post by The Todal
Post by Martin Harran
Forgive the slight mixing of metaphors but sounds like the promised
bonfire turned out to be a damp squib.
If I remember rightly, the main theme of the Bonfire of the EU
legislation was to remove allegedly pointless health and safety rules
for workplaces, foodstuffs, products and systems of work.
At some stage one of our governments, I think the last Conservative,
made a fairly low key announcement that changes would be dealt with "as
and when" rather than in one big bonfire. Makes a lot more sense.
I suspect that most of the changes will be simply be to Tipp-Ex out
'EU', and when dry, to write in 'UKRA'. This will obviously take time.
[Actually, to hedge bets, most products now bear both.]
--
Ian
Aims and ambitions are neither attainments nor achievements
Andy Burns
2024-12-23 17:55:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Jackson
I suspect that most of the changes will be simply be to Tipp-Ex out
'EU', and when dry, to write in 'UKRA'. This will obviously take time.
[Actually, to hedge bets, most products now bear both.]
Do you mean 'UKCA' ?
Ian Jackson
2024-12-23 22:12:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Ian Jackson
I suspect that most of the changes will be simply be to Tipp-Ex out
'EU', and when dry, to write in 'UKRA'. This will obviously take time.
[Actually, to hedge bets, most products now bear both.]
Do you mean 'UKCA' ?
Indeed I do!
--
Ian
Aims and ambitions are neither attainments nor achievements
Spike
2024-12-23 18:04:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Ian Jackson
I suspect that most of the changes will be simply be to Tipp-Ex out
'EU', and when dry, to write in 'UKRA'. This will obviously take time.
[Actually, to hedge bets, most products now bear both.]
Do you mean 'UKCA' ?
Ian seems to have had a Usenet group in mind…
--
Spike
Ian Jackson
2024-12-24 14:06:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Spike
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Ian Jackson
I suspect that most of the changes will be simply be to Tipp-Ex out
'EU', and when dry, to write in 'UKRA'. This will obviously take time.
[Actually, to hedge bets, most products now bear both.]
Do you mean 'UKCA' ?
Ian seems to have had a Usenet group in mind…
True, true,
--
Ian
Aims and ambitions are neither attainments nor achievements
Sam Plusnet
2024-12-23 19:31:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Gaines
Post by The Todal
Post by Martin Harran
Forgive the slight mixing of metaphors but sounds like the promised
bonfire turned out to be a damp squib.
If I remember rightly, the main theme of the Bonfire of the EU
legislation was to remove allegedly pointless health and safety rules
for workplaces, foodstuffs, products and systems of work.
At some stage one of our governments, I think the last Conservative,
made a fairly low key announcement that changes would be dealt with "as
and when" rather than in one big bonfire. Makes a lot more sense.
But a much less exciting Conference speech - which is what the original
version was for.
--
Sam Plusnet
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