Discussion:
Farmer inheritance tax protests
Add Reply
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-10 00:25:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.

Would anyone like to bet if any farmers taking part in such protests
get sentenced to 5 years in prison for the selfish public nuisance
they will create if their protests go ahead, like the Just Stop Oil
protestors did for their selfless acts?
Roger Hayter
2024-11-10 00:28:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
Would anyone like to bet if any farmers taking part in such protests
get sentenced to 5 years in prison for the selfish public nuisance
they will create if their protests go ahead, like the Just Stop Oil
protestors did for their selfless acts?
I think we will find that the people who were so upset that their hospital
appointments, holidays and ambulances were delayed by JSO will actually be
overjoyed to find them delayed by worthy entrepreneurial farming families. So
noble.
--
Roger Hayter
Roger Hayter
2024-11-10 00:59:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
Would anyone like to bet if any farmers taking part in such protests
get sentenced to 5 years in prison for the selfish public nuisance
they will create if their protests go ahead, like the Just Stop Oil
protestors did for their selfless acts?
I think we will find that the people who were so upset that their hospital
appointments, holidays and ambulances were delayed by JSO will actually be
overjoyed to find them delayed by worthy entrepreneurial farming families. So
noble.
Although, not being quasi-religious zealots, it may be that the farmers will
let urgent traffic and the local aristocracy through.
--
Roger Hayter
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-10 01:09:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
Would anyone like to bet if any farmers taking part in such protests
get sentenced to 5 years in prison for the selfish public nuisance
they will create if their protests go ahead, like the Just Stop Oil
protestors did for their selfless acts?
I think we will find that the people who were so upset that their hospital
appointments, holidays and ambulances were delayed by JSO will actually be
overjoyed to find them delayed by worthy entrepreneurial farming
families. So noble.
Although, not being quasi-religious zealots, it may be that the
farmers will let urgent traffic and the local aristocracy through.
Their plan is apparently to block ports and starve the nation of food.
Blocking urgent traffic is precisely what they are hoping to achieve!
Jethro_uk
2024-11-10 11:15:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
[quoted text muted]
Their plan is apparently to block ports and starve the nation of food.
Which rather undermines their saintly posturing of "feeding the nation"
doesn't it ?
Andy Burns
2024-11-10 08:40:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
Although, not being quasi-religious zealots, it may be that the farmers will
let urgent traffic and the local aristocracy through.
And they may decide not to spray slurry over embassies, universities,
banks, national monuments and works of art.
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-10 10:38:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Roger Hayter
Although, not being quasi-religious zealots, it may be that the
farmers will let urgent traffic and the local aristocracy through.
And they may decide not to spray slurry over embassies, universities,
banks, national monuments and works of art.
... which is why I explicitly mentioned public nuisance, because the
Just Stop Oil people who merely blocked roads (or even just talked
about blocking roads), i.e. the same thing as farmers are allegedly
planning, got up to 5 year sentences.
JNugent
2024-11-10 17:00:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Roger Hayter
Although, not being quasi-religious zealots, it may be that the
farmers will let urgent traffic and the local aristocracy through.
And they may decide not to spray slurry over embassies, universities,
banks, national monuments and works of art.
... which is why I explicitly mentioned public nuisance, because the
Just Stop Oil people who merely blocked roads (or even just talked
about blocking roads), i.e. the same thing as farmers are allegedly
planning, got up to 5 year sentences.
"...merely blocked roads..."!!

*merely*!

Jeez...
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Roland Perry
2024-11-10 08:30:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
I'm in favour of farmers being able to roll-over their assets to the
next generation, otherwise there's no continuity and in effect the state
is evicting the children from the family business.

Alternatively, the state could confiscate the land, but allow successive
generations to farm it rent-free. Until there aren't any left who want
that lifestyle.
--
Roland Perry
RJH
2024-11-10 09:11:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
I'm in favour of farmers being able to roll-over their assets to the
next generation, otherwise there's no continuity and in effect the state
is evicting the children from the family business.
I'm sure I heard a radio discussion of this that said Labour would allow the
inheritors to pay the tax over many years - I%/pa IIRC. But I can't find any
reference to that in the budget reports . . .
Post by Roland Perry
Alternatively, the state could confiscate the land, but allow successive
generations to farm it rent-free. Until there aren't any left who want
that lifestyle.
I'd vote for that.
--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-10 10:47:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RJH
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
I'm in favour of farmers being able to roll-over their assets to the
next generation, otherwise there's no continuity and in effect the state
is evicting the children from the family business.
I'm sure I heard a radio discussion of this that said Labour would allow the
inheritors to pay the tax over many years - I%/pa IIRC. But I can't find any
reference to that in the budget reports . . .
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/what-are-the-changes-to-agricultural-property-relief

"This tax can be paid in instalments over 10 years interest free"

Even after the changes, farmers will get £1 million extra free from
inheritance tax compared to us mere plebs (per spouse, so very often
£2 million), plus any amount that is taxable they will get a 50%
tax discount with no cap, plus they will get 10 years to pay. Sadly,
the new law does not allow for the provision of a very small violin.
RJH
2024-11-10 13:08:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by RJH
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
I'm in favour of farmers being able to roll-over their assets to the
next generation, otherwise there's no continuity and in effect the state
is evicting the children from the family business.
I'm sure I heard a radio discussion of this that said Labour would allow the
inheritors to pay the tax over many years - I%/pa IIRC. But I can't find any
reference to that in the budget reports . . .
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/what-are-the-changes-to-agricultural-property-relief
"This tax can be paid in instalments over 10 years interest free"
Even after the changes, farmers will get £1 million extra free from
inheritance tax compared to us mere plebs (per spouse, so very often
£2 million), plus any amount that is taxable they will get a 50%
tax discount with no cap, plus they will get 10 years to pay. Sadly,
the new law does not allow for the provision of a very small violin.
Thanks. I'm really struggling to support the farmers with this.

I know of a retired farmer who's been shovelling lumps of half million pound
'gifts' on his family for some years, as he sells off his managed agricultural
estate before he pops his clogs. He's worked hard for it, apparently, and they
deserve it. Sigh.
--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK
miked
2024-11-11 23:18:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by RJH
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
I'm in favour of farmers being able to roll-over their assets to the
next generation, otherwise there's no continuity and in effect the state
is evicting the children from the family business.
I'm sure I heard a radio discussion of this that said Labour would allow the
inheritors to pay the tax over many years - I%/pa IIRC. But I can't find any
reference to that in the budget reports . . .
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/what-are-the-changes-to-agricultural-property-relief
"This tax can be paid in instalments over 10 years interest free"
Even after the changes, farmers will get £1 million extra free from
inheritance tax compared to us mere plebs (per spouse, so very often
£2 million), plus any amount that is taxable they will get a 50%
tax discount with no cap, plus they will get 10 years to pay. Sadly,
the new law does not allow for the provision of a very small violin.
Is it a fact that since 1992, farmers or owners of farms havnt had to
pay IHT? And that wealthy so and sos have bought up huge tracts of land
like Dyson has, and done so chiefly to avoid IHT on their wealth [plus
under the EU lots of subsidies]? But i thought that most farmers were
tenants rather than actual owners. The change must come as a big shock
to the owners especially as a farm would have to be very small to be
worth less than £1 million. Arnt subsidies also due to be phased out by
2028 as well? That is surely of more immediate importance than the IHT
change. How much is the govt hoping to raise every year by this change?

mike
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-12 08:53:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by miked
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by RJH
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
I'm in favour of farmers being able to roll-over their assets to the
next generation, otherwise there's no continuity and in effect the state
is evicting the children from the family business.
I'm sure I heard a radio discussion of this that said Labour would allow the
inheritors to pay the tax over many years - I%/pa IIRC. But I can't find any
reference to that in the budget reports . . .
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/what-are-the-changes-to-agricultural-property-relief
"This tax can be paid in instalments over 10 years interest free"
Even after the changes, farmers will get £1 million extra free from
inheritance tax compared to us mere plebs (per spouse, so very often
£2 million), plus any amount that is taxable they will get a 50%
tax discount with no cap, plus they will get 10 years to pay. Sadly,
the new law does not allow for the provision of a very small violin.
Is it a fact that since 1992, farmers or owners of farms havnt had to
pay IHT? And that wealthy so and sos have bought up huge tracts of land
like Dyson has, and done so chiefly to avoid IHT on their wealth [plus
under the EU lots of subsidies]? But i thought that most farmers were
tenants rather than actual owners. The change must come as a big shock
to the owners especially as a farm would have to be very small to be
worth less than £1 million. Arnt subsidies also due to be phased out by
2028 as well? That is surely of more immediate importance than the IHT
change. How much is the govt hoping to raise every year by this change?
Wow, that is a lot of questions.

Agricultural Property Relief was introduced by the Inheritance Tax Act
1984. It applies to "agricultural property", so it's not that farmers
are immune to inheritance tax, but that the majority of their estates
tends to be exempt from it (if they also had cash or non-agricultural
assets then their estate would have to pay tax on those).

Yes it appears that various high-net-worth non-farming individuals have
sought to artificially take advantage of this tax exemption by buying
up large amounts of agricultural property. This will presumably have
had the effect of increasing the price of agricultural land, thus
enriching the actual farmers. So I'm not sure they have much to complain
about on that front.

Apparently about a third of farms are valued at over £1m. But bear in
mind the exemption is effectively £2m-£3m most of the time. So we're
really talking around 100 or so farm estates affected a year. And
remember they only pay tax on the value above the threshold, and even
then they get a 50% discount on the tax, and on top of that they get
10 years to pay, interest-free.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8rlk0d2vk2o

Allegedly this will raise over £200m a year for the exchequer, rising
to £500m a year a few years later.

Obviously, post-Brexit, farmers are no longer getting EU subsidies,
but there are new subsidies provided by the UK government. These
subsidies are not as generous as the EU payments, but there doesn't
seem to be any plan to end them in 2028 as you suggest.
Jethro_uk
2024-11-12 11:12:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
This will presumably have had the effect of increasing the price of
agricultural land, thus enriching the actual farmers. So I'm not sure
they have much to complain about on that front.
I'm in my 50s and have never known farmers not whinge.
JNugent
2024-11-12 18:04:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by miked
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by RJH
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
I'm in favour of farmers being able to roll-over their assets to the
next generation, otherwise there's no continuity and in effect the state
is evicting the children from the family business.
I'm sure I heard a radio discussion of this that said Labour would allow the
inheritors to pay the tax over many years - I%/pa IIRC. But I can't find any
reference to that in the budget reports . . .
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/what-are-the-changes-to-agricultural-property-relief
"This tax can be paid in instalments over 10 years interest free"
Even after the changes, farmers will get £1 million extra free from
inheritance tax compared to us mere plebs (per spouse, so very often
£2 million), plus any amount that is taxable they will get a 50%
tax discount with no cap, plus they will get 10 years to pay. Sadly,
the new law does not allow for the provision of a very small violin.
Is it a fact that since 1992, farmers or owners of farms havnt had to
pay IHT? And that wealthy so and sos have bought up huge tracts of land
like Dyson has, and done so chiefly to avoid IHT on their wealth [plus
under the EU lots of subsidies]? But i thought that most farmers were
tenants rather than actual owners. The change must come as a big shock
to the owners especially as a farm would have to be very small to be
worth less than £1 million. Arnt subsidies also due to be phased out by
2028 as well? That is surely of more immediate importance than the IHT
change. How much is the govt hoping to raise every year by this change?
Wow, that is a lot of questions.
Agricultural Property Relief was introduced by the Inheritance Tax Act
1984. It applies to "agricultural property", so it's not that farmers
are immune to inheritance tax, but that the majority of their estates
tends to be exempt from it (if they also had cash or non-agricultural
assets then their estate would have to pay tax on those).
Yes it appears that various high-net-worth non-farming individuals have
sought to artificially take advantage of this tax exemption by buying
up large amounts of agricultural property. This will presumably have
had the effect of increasing the price of agricultural land, thus
enriching the actual farmers. So I'm not sure they have much to complain
about on that front.
Apparently about a third of farms are valued at over £1m. But bear in
mind the exemption is effectively £2m-£3m most of the time. So we're
really talking around 100 or so farm estates affected a year. And
remember they only pay tax on the value above the threshold, and even
then they get a 50% discount on the tax, and on top of that they get
10 years to pay, interest-free.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8rlk0d2vk2o
Allegedly this will raise over £200m a year for the exchequer, rising
to £500m a year a few years later.
Obviously, post-Brexit, farmers are no longer getting EU subsidies,
but there are new subsidies provided by the UK government. These
subsidies are not as generous as the EU payments, but there doesn't
seem to be any plan to end them in 2028 as you suggest.
"So we're really talking around 100 or so farm estates affected a year."

Substitute any other damaging meassure you choose and ask yourself
whether "only 100 a year" means it's OK.

Mind you, one supposes that it is better then the approximately eight
million pensioners deprived of their Winter Fuel Allowance.

What's "100" compared to that number?
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Clive Arthur
2024-11-12 21:55:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 12/11/2024 18:04, JNugent wrote:

<snip>
Post by JNugent
Mind you, one supposes that it is better then the approximately eight
million pensioners deprived of their Winter Fuel Allowance.
I don't mind, do you? And no, I'm not 'wealthy'.
--
Cheers
Clive
Owen Rees
2024-11-13 08:42:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Clive Arthur
<snip>
Post by JNugent
Mind you, one supposes that it is better then the approximately eight
million pensioners deprived of their Winter Fuel Allowance.
I don't mind, do you? And no, I'm not 'wealthy'.
Honouring the triple lock is far more valuable to me than keeping the
winter fuel allowance.

Sunak’s suspension of the triple lock cost pensioners over £10 per week and
the effect is compounded by the annual rises being based on a percentage.
Mark Goodge
2024-11-13 11:33:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Owen Rees
Post by Clive Arthur
<snip>
Post by JNugent
Mind you, one supposes that it is better then the approximately eight
million pensioners deprived of their Winter Fuel Allowance.
I don't mind, do you? And no, I'm not 'wealthy'.
Honouring the triple lock is far more valuable to me than keeping the
winter fuel allowance.
Sunak’s suspension of the triple lock cost pensioners over £10 per week and
the effect is compounded by the annual rises being based on a percentage.
The triple lock effectively guarantees that pensioners' income will rise
faster than the working population's. Temporarily suspending it in the
aftermath of the Covid pandemic was pretty much unavoidable, because of the
distortions that lockdown created in the labour market.

A lot of people's income went down during lockdown, but then went back up
again afgterwards as they came off furlough and started working again. Had
the triple lock been left in place, that increase in income would have been
reflected in an equal increase in pensions - despite the fact that, unlike
working incomes, pensions didn't go down during lockdown. That would clearly
be inequitable, hence the temporary removal of that provision from the
triple lock.

So, in reality, that temporary suspension of the triple lock hasn't actually
"cost" anyone anything, because had the pandemic not happened then that
massive distortion wouldn't have existed in the first place. Pensions
continued to rise along with inflation, which is the figure that matters
most to most people. And with inflation having been relatively high for the
past few years, pensions have generally risen faster thasn incomes anyway.

Mark
JNugent
2024-11-13 18:25:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Owen Rees
Post by Clive Arthur
<snip>
Post by JNugent
Mind you, one supposes that it is better then the approximately eight
million pensioners deprived of their Winter Fuel Allowance.
I don't mind, do you? And no, I'm not 'wealthy'.
Honouring the triple lock is far more valuable to me than keeping the
winter fuel allowance.
Why is either more important than the other?
Post by Owen Rees
Sunak’s suspension of the triple lock cost pensioners over £10 per week and
the effect is compounded by the annual rises being based on a percentage.
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Spike
2024-11-12 22:40:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Clive Arthur
<snip>
Post by JNugent
Mind you, one supposes that it is better then the approximately eight
million pensioners deprived of their Winter Fuel Allowance.
I don't mind, do you? And no, I'm not 'wealthy'.
Let’s hope for a mild winter with few infectious diseases about. That
should lower the number of excess winter deaths and let the Labour
government off the hook on which it was determined to impale itself.
--
Spike
JNugent
2024-11-12 23:49:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Clive Arthur
<snip>
Post by JNugent
Mind you, one supposes that it is better then the approximately eight
million pensioners deprived of their Winter Fuel Allowance.
I don't mind, do you?  And no, I'm not 'wealthy'.
Yes, of course I mind, like millions of others.

What was regarded as an integral part of the State Pension (£200 net,
worth £250 gross, or, as the case may be, £300 net and £360 gross) has
been preremptorily and cynically withdrawn. The lying bastards COULD
have announced that in their manifesto. I wonder why they didn't (and
don't even think of citing the fictitious "black hole")?

What next, a reduction of the State Pension weekly amount, on the
equally false basis that it is sufficient or even over-adequate?
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Mark Goodge
2024-11-13 14:42:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
What next, a reduction of the State Pension weekly amount, on the
equally false basis that it is sufficient or even over-adequate?
If you really want to know what's next, I suspect there was a hint of it in
PMQs today. The leader of the opposition asked the PM whether he was
planning to increase the 5% cap on council tax rises. Rather than give a
straight answer either way, he simply replied "On the question of council
tax, she knows what the arrangements are".

I have a feeling that what's going to happen is that the government is
planning to cut funding to local authorities (indeed, they've already
declined to renew one tranche of funding which previously supported services
for victims of domestic abuse), and then remove the 5% cap on council tax
rises - effectively forcing councils to choose between making cuts or
significantly increasing tax in order to avoid running out of money (and,
with my cynical hat on, I suspect that the forthcoming funding announcement
will deliberately defund Conservative and Lib Dem run councils while bailing
out Labour run ones).

That way, if councils do choose to raise council tax by more than 5%, it
enables the government to keep on claiming that they haven't raised taxes on
working people, because the tax rises will be imposed by councils and not
the government - even though those rises will be effectively forced by the
government reducing funding to those councils.

mark
Roger Hayter
2024-11-13 17:04:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 13 Nov 2024 at 14:42:26 GMT, "Mark Goodge"
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by JNugent
What next, a reduction of the State Pension weekly amount, on the
equally false basis that it is sufficient or even over-adequate?
If you really want to know what's next, I suspect there was a hint of it in
PMQs today. The leader of the opposition asked the PM whether he was
planning to increase the 5% cap on council tax rises. Rather than give a
straight answer either way, he simply replied "On the question of council
tax, she knows what the arrangements are".
I have a feeling that what's going to happen is that the government is
planning to cut funding to local authorities (indeed, they've already
declined to renew one tranche of funding which previously supported services
for victims of domestic abuse), and then remove the 5% cap on council tax
rises - effectively forcing councils to choose between making cuts or
significantly increasing tax in order to avoid running out of money (and,
with my cynical hat on, I suspect that the forthcoming funding announcement
will deliberately defund Conservative and Lib Dem run councils while bailing
out Labour run ones).
I am prepared to believe they would like to do that, but is the system set up
to actually make that feasible? Conservative areas seem to have a
significantly larger tax base per capita, though causation here may be the
other way round.

I suppose in the long run there might be a way to do it, but it would probably
involve extra money for inner cities, which they are not in a position to
provide at the moment.
Post by Mark Goodge
That way, if councils do choose to raise council tax by more than 5%, it
enables the government to keep on claiming that they haven't raised taxes on
working people, because the tax rises will be imposed by councils and not
the government - even though those rises will be effectively forced by the
government reducing funding to those councils.
mark
--
Roger Hayter
Mark Goodge
2024-11-13 18:39:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
On 13 Nov 2024 at 14:42:26 GMT, "Mark Goodge"
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by JNugent
What next, a reduction of the State Pension weekly amount, on the
equally false basis that it is sufficient or even over-adequate?
If you really want to know what's next, I suspect there was a hint of it in
PMQs today. The leader of the opposition asked the PM whether he was
planning to increase the 5% cap on council tax rises. Rather than give a
straight answer either way, he simply replied "On the question of council
tax, she knows what the arrangements are".
I have a feeling that what's going to happen is that the government is
planning to cut funding to local authorities (indeed, they've already
declined to renew one tranche of funding which previously supported services
for victims of domestic abuse), and then remove the 5% cap on council tax
rises - effectively forcing councils to choose between making cuts or
significantly increasing tax in order to avoid running out of money (and,
with my cynical hat on, I suspect that the forthcoming funding announcement
will deliberately defund Conservative and Lib Dem run councils while bailing
out Labour run ones).
I am prepared to believe they would like to do that, but is the system set up
to actually make that feasible? Conservative areas seem to have a
significantly larger tax base per capita, though causation here may be the
other way round.
Yes, it is feasible to do that. At least, it's not feasible to specifically
discriminate between councils with different ruling parties. But it is
feasible to tweak the funding rules in order to give more to councils with
certain demographic characteristics, which is often a very reliable proxy
for political control.
Post by Roger Hayter
I suppose in the long run there might be a way to do it, but it would probably
involve extra money for inner cities, which they are not in a position to
provide at the moment.
That's actually precisely how it's likely to be done. And the money to
provide extra for inner city councils will come from reducing funding for
rural, suburban and non-metropolitan borough councils. The local government
minister has said that they plan to focus on "aligning funding with
deprivation levels", which is effectively code for shifting funding to inner
cities and away from everywhere else.

On the face of it, it sounds like a good thing to increase funding for
councils in more deprived areas. But the problem with that is that
deprivation doesn't actually correlate all that much with councils'
unavoidable expenditure on statutory obligations. There are costs associated
with higher levels of deprivation, but they're not as significant as it
might appear. And, in particular, higher levels of deprivation don't
significantly inflate a council's statutory obligations, and therefore lower
levels of deprivation don't reduce them. Spending money on addressing
deprivation is, obviojusly, a good thing, but almost all of the money spent
on it comes out of councils' discretionary funding rather than that which
they are legally obliged to spend.

Bin collections, for example - which must, by law, be free to domestic
households - are the biggest expense of lower tier councils, and are more
expensive to operate in rural areas because the bin lorries have to cover a
wider area. Similarly, rural shire counties have higher per-capita highway
costs than urban unitary councils. And the biggest costs of upper tier local
authorities - social services - don't correlate at all with deprivation. In
fact, the highest adult social care costs are incurred by councils with a
higher than average proportion of older people, which tend to be more rural
and coastal - the places that people move to when they retire.

You can argue that councils in less deprived areas have residents who are
more able to cope with a hefty tax increase, which is probably at least
partly true. But an increase is still an increase, and a council tax
increase will impact "working people", however that's currently being
defined.

Mark
Roland Perry
2024-11-13 20:16:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Goodge
But an increase is still an increase, and a council tax
increase will impact "working people", however that's currently being
defined.
Whatever happened to the concept of "hard working families".
--
Roland Perry
Roger Hayter
2024-11-13 20:28:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 13 Nov 2024 at 18:39:39 GMT, "Mark Goodge"
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by Roger Hayter
On 13 Nov 2024 at 14:42:26 GMT, "Mark Goodge"
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by JNugent
What next, a reduction of the State Pension weekly amount, on the
equally false basis that it is sufficient or even over-adequate?
If you really want to know what's next, I suspect there was a hint of it in
PMQs today. The leader of the opposition asked the PM whether he was
planning to increase the 5% cap on council tax rises. Rather than give a
straight answer either way, he simply replied "On the question of council
tax, she knows what the arrangements are".
I have a feeling that what's going to happen is that the government is
planning to cut funding to local authorities (indeed, they've already
declined to renew one tranche of funding which previously supported services
for victims of domestic abuse), and then remove the 5% cap on council tax
rises - effectively forcing councils to choose between making cuts or
significantly increasing tax in order to avoid running out of money (and,
with my cynical hat on, I suspect that the forthcoming funding announcement
will deliberately defund Conservative and Lib Dem run councils while bailing
out Labour run ones).
I am prepared to believe they would like to do that, but is the system set up
to actually make that feasible? Conservative areas seem to have a
significantly larger tax base per capita, though causation here may be the
other way round.
Yes, it is feasible to do that. At least, it's not feasible to specifically
discriminate between councils with different ruling parties. But it is
feasible to tweak the funding rules in order to give more to councils with
certain demographic characteristics, which is often a very reliable proxy
for political control.
Post by Roger Hayter
I suppose in the long run there might be a way to do it, but it would probably
involve extra money for inner cities, which they are not in a position to
provide at the moment.
That's actually precisely how it's likely to be done. And the money to
provide extra for inner city councils will come from reducing funding for
rural, suburban and non-metropolitan borough councils. The local government
minister has said that they plan to focus on "aligning funding with
deprivation levels", which is effectively code for shifting funding to inner
cities and away from everywhere else.
On the face of it, it sounds like a good thing to increase funding for
councils in more deprived areas. But the problem with that is that
deprivation doesn't actually correlate all that much with councils'
unavoidable expenditure on statutory obligations. There are costs associated
with higher levels of deprivation, but they're not as significant as it
might appear. And, in particular, higher levels of deprivation don't
significantly inflate a council's statutory obligations, and therefore lower
levels of deprivation don't reduce them. Spending money on addressing
deprivation is, obviojusly, a good thing, but almost all of the money spent
on it comes out of councils' discretionary funding rather than that which
they are legally obliged to spend.
Bin collections, for example - which must, by law, be free to domestic
households - are the biggest expense of lower tier councils, and are more
expensive to operate in rural areas because the bin lorries have to cover a
wider area. Similarly, rural shire counties have higher per-capita highway
costs than urban unitary councils. And the biggest costs of upper tier local
authorities - social services - don't correlate at all with deprivation. In
fact, the highest adult social care costs are incurred by councils with a
higher than average proportion of older people, which tend to be more rural
and coastal - the places that people move to when they retire.
You can argue that councils in less deprived areas have residents who are
more able to cope with a hefty tax increase, which is probably at least
partly true. But an increase is still an increase, and a council tax
increase will impact "working people", however that's currently being
defined.
Mark
I don't generally have much stomach for party politics as practiced in this
country. But you might admit, when in an unusually frank mood, that
politicking in the reverse direction, resulting in many cities being nearly or
actually bankrupt, has been going on since 2010. So perhaps some reversal is
due? And the fact remains that the population in the shires can better afford
higher contributions.

So I may not object to it as much as some of Starmer's actions.
--
Roger Hayter
Roland Perry
2024-11-13 17:19:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by JNugent
What next, a reduction of the State Pension weekly amount, on the
equally false basis that it is sufficient or even over-adequate?
If you really want to know what's next, I suspect there was a hint of it in
PMQs today. The leader of the opposition asked the PM whether he was
planning to increase the 5% cap on council tax rises. Rather than give a
straight answer either way, he simply replied "On the question of council
tax, she knows what the arrangements are".
I have a feeling that what's going to happen is that the government is
planning to cut funding to local authorities (indeed, they've already
declined to renew one tranche of funding which previously supported services
for victims of domestic abuse), and then remove the 5% cap on council tax
rises - effectively forcing councils to choose between making cuts or
significantly increasing tax in order to avoid running out of money (and,
with my cynical hat on, I suspect that the forthcoming funding announcement
will deliberately defund Conservative and Lib Dem run councils while bailing
out Labour run ones).
That way, if councils do choose to raise council tax by more than 5%, it
enables the government to keep on claiming that they haven't raised taxes on
working people, because the tax rises will be imposed by councils and not
the government - even though those rises will be effectively forced by the
government reducing funding to those councils.
This sort of thing has been going on for more than a generation, by both
parties. In education, for example, the Government will say "we are
increasing the provision of $foo by £100 million" when what they really
mean is "we'll allow County Councils to borrow more to spend that $foo".
--
Roland Perry
JNugent
2024-11-13 18:28:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by JNugent
What next, a reduction of the State Pension weekly amount, on the
equally false basis that it is sufficient or even over-adequate?
If you really want to know what's next, I suspect there was a hint of it in
PMQs today. The leader of the opposition asked the PM whether he was
planning to increase the 5% cap on council tax rises. Rather than give a
straight answer either way, he simply replied "On the question of council
tax, she knows what the arrangements are".
I have a feeling that what's going to happen is that the government is
planning to cut funding to local authorities (indeed, they've already
declined to renew one tranche of funding which previously supported services
for victims of domestic abuse), and then remove the 5% cap on council tax
rises - effectively forcing councils to choose between making cuts or
significantly increasing tax in order to avoid running out of money (and,
with my cynical hat on, I suspect that the forthcoming funding announcement
will deliberately defund Conservative and Lib Dem run councils while bailing
out Labour run ones).
That's what BlairBrownBalls did last time.
Post by Mark Goodge
That way, if councils do choose to raise council tax by more than 5%, it
enables the government to keep on claiming that they haven't raised taxes on
working people, because the tax rises will be imposed by councils and not
the government - even though those rises will be effectively forced by the
government reducing funding to those councils.
mark
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-13 00:16:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Jon Ribbens
Wow, that is a lot of questions.
Agricultural Property Relief was introduced by the Inheritance Tax Act
1984. It applies to "agricultural property", so it's not that farmers
are immune to inheritance tax, but that the majority of their estates
tends to be exempt from it (if they also had cash or non-agricultural
assets then their estate would have to pay tax on those).
Yes it appears that various high-net-worth non-farming individuals have
sought to artificially take advantage of this tax exemption by buying
up large amounts of agricultural property. This will presumably have
had the effect of increasing the price of agricultural land, thus
enriching the actual farmers. So I'm not sure they have much to complain
about on that front.
Apparently about a third of farms are valued at over £1m. But bear in
mind the exemption is effectively £2m-£3m most of the time. So we're
really talking around 100 or so farm estates affected a year. And
remember they only pay tax on the value above the threshold, and even
then they get a 50% discount on the tax, and on top of that they get
10 years to pay, interest-free.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8rlk0d2vk2o
Allegedly this will raise over £200m a year for the exchequer, rising
to £500m a year a few years later.
Obviously, post-Brexit, farmers are no longer getting EU subsidies,
but there are new subsidies provided by the UK government. These
subsidies are not as generous as the EU payments, but there doesn't
seem to be any plan to end them in 2028 as you suggest.
"So we're really talking around 100 or so farm estates affected a year."
Substitute any other damaging meassure you choose and ask yourself
whether "only 100 a year" means it's OK.
Asking people to pay their taxes isn't a "damaging measure". HTH.
JNugent
2024-11-13 04:18:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by JNugent
Post by Jon Ribbens
Wow, that is a lot of questions.
Agricultural Property Relief was introduced by the Inheritance Tax Act
1984. It applies to "agricultural property", so it's not that farmers
are immune to inheritance tax, but that the majority of their estates
tends to be exempt from it (if they also had cash or non-agricultural
assets then their estate would have to pay tax on those).
Yes it appears that various high-net-worth non-farming individuals have
sought to artificially take advantage of this tax exemption by buying
up large amounts of agricultural property. This will presumably have
had the effect of increasing the price of agricultural land, thus
enriching the actual farmers. So I'm not sure they have much to complain
about on that front.
Apparently about a third of farms are valued at over £1m. But bear in
mind the exemption is effectively £2m-£3m most of the time. So we're
really talking around 100 or so farm estates affected a year. And
remember they only pay tax on the value above the threshold, and even
then they get a 50% discount on the tax, and on top of that they get
10 years to pay, interest-free.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8rlk0d2vk2o
Allegedly this will raise over £200m a year for the exchequer, rising
to £500m a year a few years later.
Obviously, post-Brexit, farmers are no longer getting EU subsidies,
but there are new subsidies provided by the UK government. These
subsidies are not as generous as the EU payments, but there doesn't
seem to be any plan to end them in 2028 as you suggest.
"So we're really talking around 100 or so farm estates affected a year."
Substitute any other damaging meassure you choose and ask yourself
whether "only 100 a year" means it's OK.
Asking people to pay their taxes isn't a "damaging measure". HTH.
Will you be paying your taxes on the same basis (I know that I won't)?

Or is that something Completely Different And Irrelevant[TM]?
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-13 09:52:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by JNugent
Post by Jon Ribbens
Wow, that is a lot of questions.
Agricultural Property Relief was introduced by the Inheritance Tax Act
1984. It applies to "agricultural property", so it's not that farmers
are immune to inheritance tax, but that the majority of their estates
tends to be exempt from it (if they also had cash or non-agricultural
assets then their estate would have to pay tax on those).
Yes it appears that various high-net-worth non-farming individuals have
sought to artificially take advantage of this tax exemption by buying
up large amounts of agricultural property. This will presumably have
had the effect of increasing the price of agricultural land, thus
enriching the actual farmers. So I'm not sure they have much to complain
about on that front.
Apparently about a third of farms are valued at over £1m. But bear in
mind the exemption is effectively £2m-£3m most of the time. So we're
really talking around 100 or so farm estates affected a year. And
remember they only pay tax on the value above the threshold, and even
then they get a 50% discount on the tax, and on top of that they get
10 years to pay, interest-free.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8rlk0d2vk2o
Allegedly this will raise over £200m a year for the exchequer, rising
to £500m a year a few years later.
Obviously, post-Brexit, farmers are no longer getting EU subsidies,
but there are new subsidies provided by the UK government. These
subsidies are not as generous as the EU payments, but there doesn't
seem to be any plan to end them in 2028 as you suggest.
"So we're really talking around 100 or so farm estates affected a year."
Substitute any other damaging meassure you choose and ask yourself
whether "only 100 a year" means it's OK.
Asking people to pay their taxes isn't a "damaging measure". HTH.
Will you be paying your taxes on the same basis (I know that I won't)?
Or is that something Completely Different And Irrelevant[TM]?
What on earth are you talking about?
Roger Hayter
2024-11-13 11:09:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by JNugent
Post by Jon Ribbens
Wow, that is a lot of questions.
Agricultural Property Relief was introduced by the Inheritance Tax Act
1984. It applies to "agricultural property", so it's not that farmers
are immune to inheritance tax, but that the majority of their estates
tends to be exempt from it (if they also had cash or non-agricultural
assets then their estate would have to pay tax on those).
Yes it appears that various high-net-worth non-farming individuals have
sought to artificially take advantage of this tax exemption by buying
up large amounts of agricultural property. This will presumably have
had the effect of increasing the price of agricultural land, thus
enriching the actual farmers. So I'm not sure they have much to complain
about on that front.
Apparently about a third of farms are valued at over £1m. But bear in
mind the exemption is effectively £2m-£3m most of the time. So we're
really talking around 100 or so farm estates affected a year. And
remember they only pay tax on the value above the threshold, and even
then they get a 50% discount on the tax, and on top of that they get
10 years to pay, interest-free.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8rlk0d2vk2o
Allegedly this will raise over £200m a year for the exchequer, rising
to £500m a year a few years later.
Obviously, post-Brexit, farmers are no longer getting EU subsidies,
but there are new subsidies provided by the UK government. These
subsidies are not as generous as the EU payments, but there doesn't
seem to be any plan to end them in 2028 as you suggest.
"So we're really talking around 100 or so farm estates affected a year."
Substitute any other damaging meassure you choose and ask yourself
whether "only 100 a year" means it's OK.
Asking people to pay their taxes isn't a "damaging measure". HTH.
Will you be paying your taxes on the same basis (I know that I won't)?
Or is that something Completely Different And Irrelevant[TM]?
If he is not a farmer he will be liable to IHT on a somewhat more onerous
basis. Of course it may be he is not as rich as some multi-millionaire
farmers, but I don't see that as an advantage to him.
--
Roger Hayter
Roger Hayter
2024-11-10 10:00:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
I'm in favour of farmers being able to roll-over their assets to the
next generation, otherwise there's no continuity and in effect the state
is evicting the children from the family business.
Alternatively, the state could confiscate the land, but allow successive
generations to farm it rent-free. Until there aren't any left who want
that lifestyle.
I am not an expert on IHT, but surely all they've got to do is hand over the
assets a generation earlier. Which should be good for farm modernisation.
--
Roger Hayter
Clive Page
2024-11-10 10:16:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
I'm in favour of farmers being able to roll-over their assets to the
next generation, otherwise there's no continuity and in effect the state
is evicting the children from the family business.
Alternatively, the state could confiscate the land, but allow successive
generations to farm it rent-free. Until there aren't any left who want
that lifestyle.
I am not an expert on IHT, but surely all they've got to do is hand over the
assets a generation earlier. Which should be good for farm modernisation.
In fact all they have to do is hand over the assets 7 years before they die, that always escapes IHT. And the proposed changes seem very modest - farms will be taxed at only 10%, well below the usual IHT rate, and only on the excess over 2 or 3 million, and will have 10 years to pay it.

The simple fact is that farming land prices have risen considerably in recent years largely because of the excess demand from the likes of Jeremy Clarkson, who admits he got his farmland as a way of escaping IHT. There are lots more multi-millionaires who have done the same thing, e.g. James Dyson. Not all of them have decamped to Singapore as he has, but if they did I for one would not be concerned.
--
Clive Page
Spike
2024-11-10 09:42:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
I'm in favour of farmers being able to roll-over their assets to the
next generation, otherwise there's no continuity and in effect the state
is evicting the children from the family business.
There is the possibility of commercial organisations buying up these
family-held farms and so increasing their holdings. Labour did promise to
be ‘the party of business’, didn’t they, and perhaps this is one way of
fulfilling their promises. In total contrast to how they have treated the
elderly, of course.
Post by Roland Perry
Alternatively, the state could confiscate the land, but allow successive
generations to farm it rent-free. Until there aren't any left who want
that lifestyle.
That might be too Marxist-Leninist for even this Labour government.
--
Spike
Spike
2024-11-10 09:48:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
Would anyone like to bet if any farmers taking part in such protests
get sentenced to 5 years in prison for the selfish public nuisance
they will create if their protests go ahead, like the Just Stop Oil
protestors did for their selfless acts?
The crucial difference between family farmers and JSO is that the former
live in the real world and the latter live in some fantasy in their heads,
and their ’selfless acts’ are merely to gain some internal psychological
satisfaction.
--
Spike
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-10 10:53:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
Would anyone like to bet if any farmers taking part in such protests
get sentenced to 5 years in prison for the selfish public nuisance
they will create if their protests go ahead, like the Just Stop Oil
protestors did for their selfless acts?
The crucial difference between family farmers and JSO is that the former
live in the real world and the latter live in some fantasy in their heads,
and their ’selfless acts’ are merely to gain some internal psychological
satisfaction.
So presumably you're saying that farmers should receive *more* than
5 year sentences, because they will not have these alleged mental
defects to take into account as mitigation during sentencing?
GB
2024-11-10 11:34:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
Would anyone like to bet if any farmers taking part in such protests
get sentenced to 5 years in prison for the selfish public nuisance
they will create if their protests go ahead, like the Just Stop Oil
protestors did for their selfless acts?
The crucial difference between family farmers and JSO is that the former
live in the real world and the latter live in some fantasy in their heads,
and their ’selfless acts’ are merely to gain some internal psychological
satisfaction.
So presumably you're saying that farmers should receive *more* than
5 year sentences, because they will not have these alleged mental
defects to take into account as mitigation during sentencing?
Your use of the word 'selfless' in the OP. Putting other people to a lot
of trouble doesn't really seem selfless. Did you mean 'selfish', and it
was just a typo, perhaps?
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-10 12:02:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by GB
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
Would anyone like to bet if any farmers taking part in such protests
get sentenced to 5 years in prison for the selfish public nuisance
they will create if their protests go ahead, like the Just Stop Oil
protestors did for their selfless acts?
The crucial difference between family farmers and JSO is that the former
live in the real world and the latter live in some fantasy in their heads,
and their ’selfless acts’ are merely to gain some internal psychological
satisfaction.
So presumably you're saying that farmers should receive *more* than
5 year sentences, because they will not have these alleged mental
defects to take into account as mitigation during sentencing?
Your use of the word 'selfless' in the OP. Putting other people to a lot
of trouble doesn't really seem selfless. Did you mean 'selfish', and it
was just a typo, perhaps?
I am not sure from where your confusion arises, but this may help:

selfless, adj. Having little or no concern for or thought of
oneself; not self-centred or selfish.

Even if you think they were misguided, or disagree with their methods,
the Just Stop Oil protestors risked - and suffered! - extreme personal
consequences, motivated by a concern for the well-being of all humanity
but particularly those less well-off than themselves. There is no way
their actions could result in any personal gain. This is the very
definition of "selfless". To call them "selfish" would be simply
nonsensical.
Spike
2024-11-10 12:12:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by GB
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
Would anyone like to bet if any farmers taking part in such protests
get sentenced to 5 years in prison for the selfish public nuisance
they will create if their protests go ahead, like the Just Stop Oil
protestors did for their selfless acts?
The crucial difference between family farmers and JSO is that the former
live in the real world and the latter live in some fantasy in their heads,
and their ’selfless acts’ are merely to gain some internal psychological
satisfaction.
So presumably you're saying that farmers should receive *more* than
5 year sentences, because they will not have these alleged mental
defects to take into account as mitigation during sentencing?
Your use of the word 'selfless' in the OP. Putting other people to a lot
of trouble doesn't really seem selfless. Did you mean 'selfish', and it
was just a typo, perhaps?
selfless, adj. Having little or no concern for or thought of
oneself; not self-centred or selfish.
Even if you think they were misguided, or disagree with their methods,
the Just Stop Oil protestors risked - and suffered! - extreme personal
consequences, motivated by a concern for the well-being of all humanity
but particularly those less well-off than themselves. There is no way
their actions could result in any personal gain. This is the very
definition of "selfless". To call them "selfish" would be simply
nonsensical.
I take the view that the JSO protesters were doing so in order to make
themselves ‘feel good’ internally by undertaking the actions that they did.
That’s a definition of ‘selfish’ because they inflicted their fantasies on
others.
--
Spike
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-10 12:42:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by GB
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
Would anyone like to bet if any farmers taking part in such protests
get sentenced to 5 years in prison for the selfish public nuisance
they will create if their protests go ahead, like the Just Stop Oil
protestors did for their selfless acts?
The crucial difference between family farmers and JSO is that the former
live in the real world and the latter live in some fantasy in their heads,
and their ’selfless acts’ are merely to gain some internal psychological
satisfaction.
So presumably you're saying that farmers should receive *more* than
5 year sentences, because they will not have these alleged mental
defects to take into account as mitigation during sentencing?
Your use of the word 'selfless' in the OP. Putting other people to a lot
of trouble doesn't really seem selfless. Did you mean 'selfish', and it
was just a typo, perhaps?
selfless, adj. Having little or no concern for or thought of
oneself; not self-centred or selfish.
Even if you think they were misguided, or disagree with their methods,
the Just Stop Oil protestors risked - and suffered! - extreme personal
consequences, motivated by a concern for the well-being of all humanity
but particularly those less well-off than themselves. There is no way
their actions could result in any personal gain. This is the very
definition of "selfless". To call them "selfish" would be simply
nonsensical.
I take the view that the JSO protesters were doing so in order to make
themselves ‘feel good’ internally by undertaking the actions that they did.
That’s a definition of ‘selfish’ because they inflicted their fantasies on
others.
Ok, but that's just the "no such thing as an unselfish motive" argument,
which makes the words "selfish" and "selfless" meaningless.
JNugent
2024-11-10 17:13:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by GB
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
Would anyone like to bet if any farmers taking part in such protests
get sentenced to 5 years in prison for the selfish public nuisance
they will create if their protests go ahead, like the Just Stop Oil
protestors did for their selfless acts?
The crucial difference between family farmers and JSO is that the former
live in the real world and the latter live in some fantasy in their heads,
and their ’selfless acts’ are merely to gain some internal psychological
satisfaction.
So presumably you're saying that farmers should receive *more* than
5 year sentences, because they will not have these alleged mental
defects to take into account as mitigation during sentencing?
Your use of the word 'selfless' in the OP. Putting other people to a lot
of trouble doesn't really seem selfless. Did you mean 'selfish', and it
was just a typo, perhaps?
selfless, adj. Having little or no concern for or thought of
oneself; not self-centred or selfish.
Even if you think they were misguided, or disagree with their methods,
the Just Stop Oil protestors risked - and suffered! - extreme personal
consequences, motivated by a concern for the well-being of all humanity
but particularly those less well-off than themselves. There is no way
their actions could result in any personal gain. This is the very
definition of "selfless". To call them "selfish" would be simply
nonsensical.
I take the view that the JSO protesters were doing so in order to make
themselves ‘feel good’ internally by undertaking the actions that they did.
That’s a definition of ‘selfish’ because they inflicted their fantasies on
others.
Ok, but that's just the "no such thing as an unselfish motive" argument,
which makes the words "selfish" and "selfless" meaningless.
If one insists on using schoolboy terms like "selfish", one devalue
one's own argument. The classic psychological / economic model
references only "self-interest", which obviously does not need to be
defined only in terms of oneself. Wanting something for a third party -
or even for everyone in the world - is also a form (and a very obvious
form) of self-interest.

There has never been the slightest doubt of that within the sphere of
economics.
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-10 20:59:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by GB
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
Would anyone like to bet if any farmers taking part in such protests
get sentenced to 5 years in prison for the selfish public nuisance
they will create if their protests go ahead, like the Just Stop Oil
protestors did for their selfless acts?
The crucial difference between family farmers and JSO is that
the former live in the real world and the latter live in some
fantasy in their heads, and their ’selfless acts’ are merely to
gain some internal psychological satisfaction.
So presumably you're saying that farmers should receive *more* than
5 year sentences, because they will not have these alleged mental
defects to take into account as mitigation during sentencing?
Your use of the word 'selfless' in the OP. Putting other people to a lot
of trouble doesn't really seem selfless. Did you mean 'selfish', and it
was just a typo, perhaps?
selfless, adj. Having little or no concern for or thought of
oneself; not self-centred or selfish.
Even if you think they were misguided, or disagree with their methods,
the Just Stop Oil protestors risked - and suffered! - extreme personal
consequences, motivated by a concern for the well-being of all humanity
but particularly those less well-off than themselves. There is no way
their actions could result in any personal gain. This is the very
definition of "selfless". To call them "selfish" would be simply
nonsensical.
I take the view that the JSO protesters were doing so in order to make
themselves ‘feel good’ internally by undertaking the actions that they did.
That’s a definition of ‘selfish’ because they inflicted their fantasies on
others.
Ok, but that's just the "no such thing as an unselfish motive" argument,
which makes the words "selfish" and "selfless" meaningless.
If one insists on using schoolboy terms like "selfish", one devalue
one's own argument.
You'd have to take that up with someone who has used that term in their
argument.
Post by JNugent
The classic psychological / economic model references only
"self-interest", which obviously does not need to be defined only in
terms of oneself. Wanting something for a third party - or even for
everyone in the world - is also a form (and a very obvious form) of
self-interest.
You've wandered off into Humpty Dumpty world here I'm afraid.
Post by JNugent
There has never been the slightest doubt of that within the sphere of
economics.
Ok, well, if anyone brings up an argument that has anything to do with
economics then we'll let you know, and you can come and explain economic
terminology to us. In the mean time, it seems a rather irrelevant aside.
JNugent
2024-11-10 22:28:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by JNugent
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by GB
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
Would anyone like to bet if any farmers taking part in such protests
get sentenced to 5 years in prison for the selfish public nuisance
they will create if their protests go ahead, like the Just Stop Oil
protestors did for their selfless acts?
The crucial difference between family farmers and JSO is that
the former live in the real world and the latter live in some
fantasy in their heads, and their ’selfless acts’ are merely to
gain some internal psychological satisfaction.
So presumably you're saying that farmers should receive *more* than
5 year sentences, because they will not have these alleged mental
defects to take into account as mitigation during sentencing?
Your use of the word 'selfless' in the OP. Putting other people to a lot
of trouble doesn't really seem selfless. Did you mean 'selfish', and it
was just a typo, perhaps?
selfless, adj. Having little or no concern for or thought of
oneself; not self-centred or selfish.
Even if you think they were misguided, or disagree with their methods,
the Just Stop Oil protestors risked - and suffered! - extreme personal
consequences, motivated by a concern for the well-being of all humanity
but particularly those less well-off than themselves. There is no way
their actions could result in any personal gain. This is the very
definition of "selfless". To call them "selfish" would be simply
nonsensical.
I take the view that the JSO protesters were doing so in order to make
themselves ‘feel good’ internally by undertaking the actions that they did.
That’s a definition of ‘selfish’ because they inflicted their fantasies on
others.
Ok, but that's just the "no such thing as an unselfish motive" argument,
which makes the words "selfish" and "selfless" meaningless.
If one insists on using schoolboy terms like "selfish", one devalue
one's own argument.
You'd have to take that up with someone who has used that term in their
argument.
Post by JNugent
The classic psychological / economic model references only
"self-interest", which obviously does not need to be defined only in
terms of oneself. Wanting something for a third party - or even for
everyone in the world - is also a form (and a very obvious form) of
self-interest.
You've wandered off into Humpty Dumpty world here I'm afraid.
Post by JNugent
There has never been the slightest doubt of that within the sphere of
economics.
Ok, well, if anyone brings up an argument that has anything to do with
economics then we'll let you know, and you can come and explain economic
terminology to us. In the mean time, it seems a rather irrelevant aside.
It is ALL to do with economics (the study of the allocation of scarce
resources with alternative uses).

But you've certainly demonstrated the easiest way to deal with matters
you wish weren't relevant.
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Roger Hayter
2024-11-10 13:17:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by GB
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
Would anyone like to bet if any farmers taking part in such protests
get sentenced to 5 years in prison for the selfish public nuisance
they will create if their protests go ahead, like the Just Stop Oil
protestors did for their selfless acts?
The crucial difference between family farmers and JSO is that the former
live in the real world and the latter live in some fantasy in their heads,
and their ’selfless acts’ are merely to gain some internal psychological
satisfaction.
So presumably you're saying that farmers should receive *more* than
5 year sentences, because they will not have these alleged mental
defects to take into account as mitigation during sentencing?
Your use of the word 'selfless' in the OP. Putting other people to a lot
of trouble doesn't really seem selfless. Did you mean 'selfish', and it
was just a typo, perhaps?
selfless, adj. Having little or no concern for or thought of
oneself; not self-centred or selfish.
Even if you think they were misguided, or disagree with their methods,
the Just Stop Oil protestors risked - and suffered! - extreme personal
consequences, motivated by a concern for the well-being of all humanity
but particularly those less well-off than themselves. There is no way
their actions could result in any personal gain. This is the very
definition of "selfless". To call them "selfish" would be simply
nonsensical.
I take the view that the JSO protesters were doing so in order to make
themselves ‘feel good’ internally by undertaking the actions that they did.
That’s a definition of ‘selfish’ because they inflicted their fantasies on
others.
Perhaps. But you thereby dismiss pretty well all philanthropy and charity as
self-indulgence. I don't necessarily disagree with you, but that view does not
sit well with your apparent political philosophy. The alternative is
presumably to give the state control of pretty well all discretionary
spending.
--
Roger Hayter
Spike
2024-11-10 13:38:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by GB
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
Would anyone like to bet if any farmers taking part in such protests
get sentenced to 5 years in prison for the selfish public nuisance
they will create if their protests go ahead, like the Just Stop Oil
protestors did for their selfless acts?
The crucial difference between family farmers and JSO is that the former
live in the real world and the latter live in some fantasy in their heads,
and their ’selfless acts’ are merely to gain some internal psychological
satisfaction.
So presumably you're saying that farmers should receive *more* than
5 year sentences, because they will not have these alleged mental
defects to take into account as mitigation during sentencing?
Your use of the word 'selfless' in the OP. Putting other people to a lot
of trouble doesn't really seem selfless. Did you mean 'selfish', and it
was just a typo, perhaps?
selfless, adj. Having little or no concern for or thought of
oneself; not self-centred or selfish.
Even if you think they were misguided, or disagree with their methods,
the Just Stop Oil protestors risked - and suffered! - extreme personal
consequences, motivated by a concern for the well-being of all humanity
but particularly those less well-off than themselves. There is no way
their actions could result in any personal gain. This is the very
definition of "selfless". To call them "selfish" would be simply
nonsensical.
I take the view that the JSO protesters were doing so in order to make
themselves ‘feel good’ internally by undertaking the actions that they did.
That’s a definition of ‘selfish’ because they inflicted their fantasies on
others.
Perhaps. But you thereby dismiss pretty well all philanthropy and charity as
self-indulgence.
Philanthropy and Charity are concerned with giving, whether of time or
money or other resources. JSO is concerned with taking away, in the form of
choices that people could make - which is neither philanthropic nor
charitable.
Post by Roger Hayter
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but that view does not
sit well with your apparent political philosophy.
I’d be most interested in finding out what my ‘apparent political
philosophy’ is! Pray tell…
Post by Roger Hayter
The alternative is
presumably to give the state control of pretty well all discretionary
spending.
If JSO ever get their way, there will be fewer choices for discretionary
spending anyway, probably down to the level of whether one buys upmarket or
ordinary locustburgers for the family evening meal.
--
Spike
JNugent
2024-11-10 17:16:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by GB
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
Would anyone like to bet if any farmers taking part in such protests
get sentenced to 5 years in prison for the selfish public nuisance
they will create if their protests go ahead, like the Just Stop Oil
protestors did for their selfless acts?
The crucial difference between family farmers and JSO is that the former
live in the real world and the latter live in some fantasy in their heads,
and their ’selfless acts’ are merely to gain some internal psychological
satisfaction.
So presumably you're saying that farmers should receive *more* than
5 year sentences, because they will not have these alleged mental
defects to take into account as mitigation during sentencing?
Your use of the word 'selfless' in the OP. Putting other people to a lot
of trouble doesn't really seem selfless. Did you mean 'selfish', and it
was just a typo, perhaps?
selfless, adj. Having little or no concern for or thought of
oneself; not self-centred or selfish.
Even if you think they were misguided, or disagree with their methods,
the Just Stop Oil protestors risked - and suffered! - extreme personal
consequences, motivated by a concern for the well-being of all humanity
but particularly those less well-off than themselves. There is no way
their actions could result in any personal gain. This is the very
definition of "selfless". To call them "selfish" would be simply
nonsensical.
I take the view that the JSO protesters were doing so in order to make
themselves ‘feel good’ internally by undertaking the actions that they did.
That’s a definition of ‘selfish’ because they inflicted their fantasies on
others.
Perhaps. But you thereby dismiss pretty well all philanthropy and charity as
self-indulgence.
Self-interest, not self-indulgence and not selfishness.
Post by Roger Hayter
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but that view does not
sit well with your apparent political philosophy. The alternative is
presumably to give the state control of pretty well all discretionary
spending.
Self-interest is at the base of all (ALL) economic modelling (and
therefore underpins all political philosophies.
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
GB
2024-11-10 12:20:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by GB
Your use of the word 'selfless' in the OP. Putting other people to a lot
of trouble doesn't really seem selfless. Did you mean 'selfish', and it
was just a typo, perhaps?
selfless, adj. Having little or no concern for or thought of
oneself; not self-centred or selfish.
Even if you think they were misguided, or disagree with their methods,
the Just Stop Oil protestors risked - and suffered! - extreme personal
consequences, motivated by a concern for the well-being of all humanity
but particularly those less well-off than themselves.
I appreciate that you were contrasting their efforts with the farmers,
who are undoubtedly just pursuing their own interests.

However, their actions do rather remind me of a teacher who used to
clout kids 'for their own good'.
Post by Jon Ribbens
There is no way
their actions could result in any personal gain. This is the very
definition of "selfless". To call them "selfish" would be simply
nonsensical.
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-10 12:45:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by GB
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by GB
Your use of the word 'selfless' in the OP. Putting other people to a lot
of trouble doesn't really seem selfless. Did you mean 'selfish', and it
was just a typo, perhaps?
selfless, adj. Having little or no concern for or thought of
oneself; not self-centred or selfish.
Even if you think they were misguided, or disagree with their methods,
the Just Stop Oil protestors risked - and suffered! - extreme personal
consequences, motivated by a concern for the well-being of all humanity
but particularly those less well-off than themselves.
I appreciate that you were contrasting their efforts with the farmers,
who are undoubtedly just pursuing their own interests.
However, their actions do rather remind me of a teacher who used to
clout kids 'for their own good'.
That is a rather unfair comparison given that the Just Stop Oil
protestors have never physically attacked anyone, so far as I'm
aware. In fact, they have risked *being* physically attacked!
Post by GB
Post by Jon Ribbens
There is no way
their actions could result in any personal gain. This is the very
definition of "selfless". To call them "selfish" would be simply
nonsensical.
JNugent
2024-11-10 17:08:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by GB
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
Would anyone like to bet if any farmers taking part in such protests
get sentenced to 5 years in prison for the selfish public nuisance
they will create if their protests go ahead, like the Just Stop Oil
protestors did for their selfless acts?
The crucial difference between family farmers and JSO is that the former
live in the real world and the latter live in some fantasy in their heads,
and their ’selfless acts’ are merely to gain some internal psychological
satisfaction.
So presumably you're saying that farmers should receive *more* than
5 year sentences, because they will not have these alleged mental
defects to take into account as mitigation during sentencing?
Your use of the word 'selfless' in the OP. Putting other people to a lot
of trouble doesn't really seem selfless. Did you mean 'selfish', and it
was just a typo, perhaps?
selfless, adj. Having little or no concern for or thought of
oneself; not self-centred or selfish.
Even if you think they were misguided, or disagree with their methods,
the Just Stop Oil protestors risked - and suffered! - extreme personal
consequences, motivated by a concern for the well-being of all humanity
but particularly those less well-off than themselves. There is no way
their actions could result in any personal gain. This is the very
definition of "selfless". To call them "selfish" would be simply
nonsensical.
No "personal gain"?

Of course, that is EXACTLY what they were seeking.

The classic economic model deals in "utility" and "self interest". It
never mentions selfishness or acquisitiveness.

The JSO criminals were seeking their own personal self-interest in
getting what they wanted to the exclusion of what anybody - everybody -
else might want. They were seeking that level of self-assertion and
dominance. Thank God the state stood up to them (on that occasion).
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-10 21:00:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by GB
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
Would anyone like to bet if any farmers taking part in such protests
get sentenced to 5 years in prison for the selfish public nuisance
they will create if their protests go ahead, like the Just Stop Oil
protestors did for their selfless acts?
The crucial difference between family farmers and JSO is that the former
live in the real world and the latter live in some fantasy in their heads,
and their ’selfless acts’ are merely to gain some internal psychological
satisfaction.
So presumably you're saying that farmers should receive *more* than
5 year sentences, because they will not have these alleged mental
defects to take into account as mitigation during sentencing?
Your use of the word 'selfless' in the OP. Putting other people to a lot
of trouble doesn't really seem selfless. Did you mean 'selfish', and it
was just a typo, perhaps?
selfless, adj. Having little or no concern for or thought of
oneself; not self-centred or selfish.
Even if you think they were misguided, or disagree with their methods,
the Just Stop Oil protestors risked - and suffered! - extreme personal
consequences, motivated by a concern for the well-being of all humanity
but particularly those less well-off than themselves. There is no way
their actions could result in any personal gain. This is the very
definition of "selfless". To call them "selfish" would be simply
nonsensical.
No "personal gain"?
Of course, that is EXACTLY what they were seeking.
The classic economic model deals in "utility" and "self interest". It
never mentions selfishness or acquisitiveness.
The JSO criminals were seeking their own personal self-interest in
getting what they wanted to the exclusion of what anybody - everybody -
else might want. They were seeking that level of self-assertion and
dominance. Thank God the state stood up to them (on that occasion).
Thank you for proving my point.
GB
2024-11-11 10:34:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Thank you for proving my point.
I *think* your point is that one lot of gits are worse than another lot
of gits? I agree with you, actually, but it doesn't make the first lot
non-gits.
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-11 12:51:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by GB
Post by Jon Ribbens
Thank you for proving my point.
I *think* your point is that one lot of gits are worse than another lot
of gits? I agree with you, actually, but it doesn't make the first lot
non-gits.
My point in the exact bit you quoted was that 'to call [JSO] "selfish"
would be simply nonsensical', which JNugent helped prove by attempting
to argue that by posting something nonsensical.

My point in the thread as a whole wasn't really to call anyone 'gits'
or 'non-gits', but to explore peoples' expectations around what the
sentencing is likely to be if an establishment 'in-group' (i.e. farmers)
were to commit exactly the same crime for which an establishment
'out-group' (i.e. environmental protestors) was sentenced extremely
harshly.
GB
2024-11-11 13:00:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by GB
Post by Jon Ribbens
Thank you for proving my point.
I *think* your point is that one lot of gits are worse than another lot
of gits? I agree with you, actually, but it doesn't make the first lot
non-gits.
My point in the exact bit you quoted was that 'to call [JSO] "selfish"
would be simply nonsensical', which JNugent helped prove by attempting
to argue that by posting something nonsensical.
My point in the thread as a whole wasn't really to call anyone 'gits'
or 'non-gits', but to explore peoples' expectations around what the
sentencing is likely to be if an establishment 'in-group' (i.e. farmers)
were to commit exactly the same crime for which an establishment
'out-group' (i.e. environmental protestors) was sentenced extremely
harshly.
Thanks for clarifying, as that point had rather been lost in the "wide
ranging" discussion.

The farmers might act a lot more sensibly in court, so that could affect
the sentence. On the other hand, if the farmers are seriously planning
to starve the government into submission, that's close to treason? I
imagine there's a lot of hot air at the moment, and they may not do all
that much in the end.
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-11 13:21:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by GB
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by GB
Post by Jon Ribbens
Thank you for proving my point.
I *think* your point is that one lot of gits are worse than another lot
of gits? I agree with you, actually, but it doesn't make the first lot
non-gits.
My point in the exact bit you quoted was that 'to call [JSO] "selfish"
would be simply nonsensical', which JNugent helped prove by attempting
to argue that by posting something nonsensical.
My point in the thread as a whole wasn't really to call anyone 'gits'
or 'non-gits', but to explore peoples' expectations around what the
sentencing is likely to be if an establishment 'in-group' (i.e. farmers)
were to commit exactly the same crime for which an establishment
'out-group' (i.e. environmental protestors) was sentenced extremely
harshly.
Thanks for clarifying, as that point had rather been lost in the "wide
ranging" discussion.
Sadly I cannot prevent other people taking the thread down irrelevant
side streets ;-)
Post by GB
The farmers might act a lot more sensibly in court, so that could affect
the sentence. On the other hand, if the farmers are seriously planning
to starve the government into submission, that's close to treason? I
imagine there's a lot of hot air at the moment, and they may not do all
that much in the end.
Well certainly if the farmers do manage to cause widespread noticeably
empty supermarket shelves then I wouldn't be surprised if they did end
up with significant sentences. If their actions and the consequences
thereof were more similar to the Just Stop Oil protestors then that's
where I might expect to see a disparity in sentencing.
Jethro_uk
2024-11-12 11:13:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Well certainly if the farmers do manage to cause widespread noticeably
empty supermarket shelves
As already noted (by me) the fact they could do this by preventing
imports, rather than not farming is "interesting"
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-12 11:21:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Jon Ribbens
Well certainly if the farmers do manage to cause widespread noticeably
empty supermarket shelves
As already noted (by me) the fact they could do this by preventing
imports, rather than not farming is "interesting"
Yes. One might almost think that committing Brexit while being reliant
on food imports was not the wisest possible choice.
Spike
2024-11-12 15:13:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Jon Ribbens
Well certainly if the farmers do manage to cause widespread noticeably
empty supermarket shelves
As already noted (by me) the fact they could do this by preventing
imports, rather than not farming is "interesting"
Yes. One might almost think that committing Brexit while being reliant
on food imports was not the wisest possible choice.
Apart from your gratuitous jibe regarding Brexit, all you seem to be saying
is that a blockade of ports will stop food supplies wherever they come
from. There’s nothing magic about highly-subsidised EU food, that it can
jump over blockading farmers at the ports.
--
Spike
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-12 17:39:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Jon Ribbens
Well certainly if the farmers do manage to cause widespread noticeably
empty supermarket shelves
As already noted (by me) the fact they could do this by preventing
imports, rather than not farming is "interesting"
Yes. One might almost think that committing Brexit while being reliant
on food imports was not the wisest possible choice.
Apart from your gratuitous jibe regarding Brexit, all you seem to be saying
is that a blockade of ports will stop food supplies wherever they come
from. There’s nothing magic about highly-subsidised EU food, that it can
jump over blockading farmers at the ports.
I didn't say there was. I wasn't saying anything about the alleged
blockade plot, I was following on from Jethro's point that the UK
is reliant on food imports.
Jethro_uk
2024-11-12 17:50:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Jon Ribbens
Well certainly if the farmers do manage to cause widespread
noticeably empty supermarket shelves
As already noted (by me) the fact they could do this by preventing
imports, rather than not farming is "interesting"
Yes. One might almost think that committing Brexit while being reliant
on food imports was not the wisest possible choice.
Apart from your gratuitous jibe regarding Brexit, all you seem to be
saying is that a blockade of ports will stop food supplies wherever
they come from. There’s nothing magic about highly-subsidised EU food,
that it can jump over blockading farmers at the ports.
I didn't say there was. I wasn't saying anything about the alleged
blockade plot, I was following on from Jethro's point that the UK is
reliant on food imports.
And has been for well over a century. Which is why I tire of this
idealised bollocks that somehow UK farming can possibly "feed the
nation".
Mark Goodge
2024-11-12 18:31:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 12 Nov 2024 17:50:05 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Jon Ribbens
I didn't say there was. I wasn't saying anything about the alleged
blockade plot, I was following on from Jethro's point that the UK is
reliant on food imports.
And has been for well over a century. Which is why I tire of this
idealised bollocks that somehow UK farming can possibly "feed the
nation".
It's even longer than that. The UK hasn't been self-sufficient in food since
the dawn of the industrial revolution. We're currently around 62%
self-sufficient, according to DEFRA, which has been broadly stable this
century although lower than it was in the mid-1980s when it peaked at 78%.

But, possibly contrary to popular belief, the current situation is
considerably better than it used to be. At the start of WWII, the UK was
less than 40% self-sufficient in food - hence the need for stringent
rationing, "Dig for Victory" and massive transatlantic food shipments to
replace those which would normally have been imported from Europe.

Post-war agricultural policy focussed on improving food production,
primarily through increasing productivity on the land but also by
encouraging a greater focus on human-consumable farm products rather than
those produced for industrial use (eg, less wool and trees, more meat, veg
and grain). In practice, some of the consequences of that approach were
later realised to be undesirable - grubbing up hedgerows to increase field
sizes, deforestation and a greater reliance on imported clothing and timber
- which is one of the reasons why food self-sufficiency started to drop
again after the mid-80s before stabilising where it is now.

The fact that our food self-sufficiency levels have been relatively stable
now for a couple of decades - a much longer period of stability than any
other time since detailed records were kept - suggests that we've got the
balance broadly right. Complete self-sufficiency is impractical, anyway,
given the Great British Public's taste for things which simply cannot be
farmed in the UK (or, at least, cannot be farmed economically or at
sufficient scale to meet demand). There will be riots in the streets of
Tunbridge Wells if Waitrose runs out of goji berries.

Mark
Jethro_uk
2024-11-12 19:14:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Goodge
On Tue, 12 Nov 2024 17:50:05 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
[quoted text muted]
It's even longer than that. The UK hasn't been self-sufficient in food
since the dawn of the industrial revolution.
I know that.

You know that.


But it seems in some arguments, when large numbers - be it time or any
other measure - get introduced, there is often a howl of "you're making
it up".

Hence my curtailing of 100 or so years. Just about believable without
angering people who like their own facts.

Smiley face.
GB
2024-11-12 20:57:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Goodge
Complete self-sufficiency is impractical, anyway,
given the Great British Public's taste for things which simply cannot be
farmed in the UK (or, at least, cannot be farmed economically or at
sufficient scale to meet demand). There will be riots in the streets of
Tunbridge Wells if Waitrose runs out of goji berries.
It would be nice if we home-produced enough calories to feed the nation.
Spike
2024-11-13 09:29:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by GB
Post by Mark Goodge
Complete self-sufficiency is impractical, anyway,
given the Great British Public's taste for things which simply cannot be
farmed in the UK (or, at least, cannot be farmed economically or at
sufficient scale to meet demand). There will be riots in the streets of
Tunbridge Wells if Waitrose runs out of goji berries.
It would be nice if we home-produced enough calories to feed the nation.
The UK was last self-sufficient in food about 400 years ago. While it might
be ‘nice’ to produce all our own food, it didn’t work during WWII with a
much smaller population, Growmore, and Dig for Victory.

This led us to having the most efficient farms in Europe, which is why de
Gaulle kept us out of the EEC/EC/EU, as he had a huge base of inefficient
small farms supported by the State that he had to keep going. And people
wonder why we voted for Brexit. The real wonder is why we ever joined in
the first place.
--
Spike
GB
2024-11-13 09:54:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Spike
Post by GB
Post by Mark Goodge
Complete self-sufficiency is impractical, anyway,
given the Great British Public's taste for things which simply cannot be
farmed in the UK (or, at least, cannot be farmed economically or at
sufficient scale to meet demand). There will be riots in the streets of
Tunbridge Wells if Waitrose runs out of goji berries.
It would be nice if we home-produced enough calories to feed the nation.
The UK was last self-sufficient in food about 400 years ago. While it might
be ‘nice’ to produce all our own food, it didn’t work during WWII with a
much smaller population, Growmore, and Dig for Victory.
This led us to having the most efficient farms in Europe, which is why de
Gaulle kept us out of the EEC/EC/EU, as he had a huge base of inefficient
small farms supported by the State that he had to keep going. And people
wonder why we voted for Brexit. The real wonder is why we ever joined in
the first place.
It's extraordinary how every thread of a certain length eventually gets
round to Brexit. Has anyone mentioned the Nazis, yet, or is that still
to come? (Ooops!)
Roland Perry
2024-11-13 10:24:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by GB
It's extraordinary how every thread of a certain length eventually gets
round to Brexit. Has anyone mentioned the Nazis, yet, or is that still
to come? (Ooops!)
Actually, Godwin's Law cites "Hitler".
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
2024-11-13 10:23:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by GB
Post by Mark Goodge
Complete self-sufficiency is impractical, anyway,
given the Great British Public's taste for things which simply cannot be
farmed in the UK (or, at least, cannot be farmed economically or at
sufficient scale to meet demand). There will be riots in the streets of
Tunbridge Wells if Waitrose runs out of goji berries.
It would be nice if we home-produced enough calories to feed the nation.
Maybe we could, if people were prepared to eat turnips instead of fillet
steak.
--
Roland Perry
Mark Goodge
2024-11-13 14:48:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by GB
Post by Mark Goodge
Complete self-sufficiency is impractical, anyway,
given the Great British Public's taste for things which simply cannot be
farmed in the UK (or, at least, cannot be farmed economically or at
sufficient scale to meet demand). There will be riots in the streets of
Tunbridge Wells if Waitrose runs out of goji berries.
It would be nice if we home-produced enough calories to feed the nation.
Maybe we could, if people were prepared to eat turnips instead of fillet
steak.
And if we're prepared to dig up the hedgerows, cut down the trees and unwild
the wildlife. We could, theoretically, be self-sufficient in essentials
provided we focus almost entirely on growing just the essentials and
dedicate as much land to it as possible. But that would not be good for the
environment, and would be equally unpopular with consumers.

Mark
Les. Hayward
2024-11-13 19:40:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by Roland Perry
Post by GB
Post by Mark Goodge
Complete self-sufficiency is impractical, anyway,
given the Great British Public's taste for things which simply cannot be
farmed in the UK (or, at least, cannot be farmed economically or at
sufficient scale to meet demand). There will be riots in the streets of
Tunbridge Wells if Waitrose runs out of goji berries.
It would be nice if we home-produced enough calories to feed the nation.
Maybe we could, if people were prepared to eat turnips instead of fillet
steak.
And if we're prepared to dig up the hedgerows, cut down the trees and unwild
the wildlife. We could, theoretically, be self-sufficient in essentials
provided we focus almost entirely on growing just the essentials and
dedicate as much land to it as possible. But that would not be good for the
environment, and would be equally unpopular with consumers.
Mark
Well for a start, we could stop making things worse by not building vast
estates of little grey & white shoebox houses on viable farmland. and
reducing the demand by reducing immigration. As for 're-wilding', I cant
really see the point of paying farmers for acres of brambles & gorse.
Max Demian
2024-11-13 18:29:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by GB
Post by Mark Goodge
Complete self-sufficiency is impractical, anyway,
given the Great British Public's taste for things which simply cannot be
farmed in the UK (or, at least, cannot be farmed economically or at
sufficient scale to meet demand). There will be riots in the streets of
Tunbridge Wells if Waitrose runs out of goji berries.
It would be nice if we home-produced enough calories to feed the nation.
Maybe we could, if people were prepared to eat turnips instead of fillet
steak.
What turnips? Asda didn't have any today, apart from the Swedish variety.
--
Max Demian
JNugent
2024-11-13 18:39:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Max Demian
Post by Roland Perry
Post by GB
Post by Mark Goodge
Complete self-sufficiency is impractical, anyway,
given the Great British Public's taste for things which simply cannot be
farmed in the UK (or, at least, cannot be farmed economically or at
sufficient scale to meet demand). There will be riots in the streets of
Tunbridge Wells if Waitrose runs out of goji berries.
It would be nice if we home-produced enough calories to feed the nation.
Maybe we could, if people were prepared to eat turnips instead of
fillet steak.
What turnips? Asda didn't have any today, apart from the Swedish variety.
Obviously, you wanted one (or more) and looked for them.

I cannot remember the last time I ate turnip and I have never ever
bought one.

Is it possible to get New Zealand lamb these days?
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Roland Perry
2024-11-13 21:03:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Max Demian
Post by Roland Perry
Post by GB
Post by Mark Goodge
Complete self-sufficiency is impractical, anyway,
given the Great British Public's taste for things which simply cannot be
farmed in the UK (or, at least, cannot be farmed economically or at
sufficient scale to meet demand). There will be riots in the streets of
Tunbridge Wells if Waitrose runs out of goji berries.
It would be nice if we home-produced enough calories to feed the nation.
Maybe we could, if people were prepared to eat turnips instead of
fillet steak.
What turnips? Asda didn't have any today, apart from the Swedish variety.
The ones they use to feed livestock, because Brits don't want to eat
them.
--
Roland Perry
kat
2024-11-13 14:13:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by GB
Post by Mark Goodge
Complete self-sufficiency is impractical, anyway,
given the Great British Public's taste for things which simply cannot be
farmed in the UK (or, at least, cannot be farmed economically or at
sufficient scale to meet demand). There will be riots in the streets of
Tunbridge Wells if Waitrose runs out of goji berries.
It would be nice if we home-produced enough calories to feed the nation.
And they do not need to be the same calories - we can export some and import the
goji berries.
--
kat
Post by GB
^..^<
Roger Hayter
2024-11-13 14:30:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by kat
Post by GB
Post by Mark Goodge
Complete self-sufficiency is impractical, anyway,
given the Great British Public's taste for things which simply cannot be
farmed in the UK (or, at least, cannot be farmed economically or at
sufficient scale to meet demand). There will be riots in the streets of
Tunbridge Wells if Waitrose runs out of goji berries.
It would be nice if we home-produced enough calories to feed the nation.
And they do not need to be the same calories - we can export some and import the
goji berries.
But once you concede that we might just as well export other things, banking,
arms etc, in return for food. There seems no obvious advantage in exchanging
food for food - we generally use money nowadays anyway.
--
Roger Hayter
Mark Goodge
2024-11-13 15:22:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by kat
Post by GB
Post by Mark Goodge
Complete self-sufficiency is impractical, anyway,
given the Great British Public's taste for things which simply cannot be
farmed in the UK (or, at least, cannot be farmed economically or at
sufficient scale to meet demand). There will be riots in the streets of
Tunbridge Wells if Waitrose runs out of goji berries.
It would be nice if we home-produced enough calories to feed the nation.
And they do not need to be the same calories - we can export some and import
the goji berries.
But once you concede that we might just as well export other things, banking,
arms etc, in return for food. There seems no obvious advantage in exchanging
food for food - we generally use money nowadays anyway.
We do already export a lot of food. But it's mostly manufacturered products
rather than raw materials - our top three food exports are whisky, chocolate
and cheese, closely followed by gin. And two more in the top ten are
breakfast cereals and soft drinks. Even the seemingly raw materials in the
list - beef and pork - are, in reality, premium quality (and price) versions
of those and are not, therefore, the meat that's going into your cheap
supermarket burgers and sausages.

The key point here is that "food" isn't a monolithic entity. Some
agricultural crops grow well, and can be farmed profitably, in the UK and
others do not. Overall, we're better off growing the things that suit our
environment and importing the things that don't.

This is something that crops up a lot at local authority planning level.
Whenever there's a planning application for a solar farm on agricultural
land, one of the objections is always that we need the land to grow food.
But, realistically, we need it more for growing electrons. Energy security
is a much bigger concern than food security. There are plenty of friendly,
stable, democratic nations that will sell us food. If push came to shove, we
might have to forego a few luxuries and prices might rise a bit, but
otherwise we could comfortably subsist on food imports from Europe, North
America and Aus/NZ. Provided nobody is trying to sink the ships (like they
were in WWII), our long-term food supply isn't under threat - and whatever
action farmers might take now is only going to be very short-term. But a
large chunk of the world's oil and gas reserves are controlled by unstable,
totalitarian and potentially (or actually) hostile states. Undersea
electricity interconnects between us and our neighbours are vulnerable to
damage (or, worse, sabotage) and, in any case, are lacking in capacity. Even
the good folk of Tunbridge Wells would, if forced to choose, probably prefer
to keep the lights on than eat their goji berries.

Mark
Roland Perry
2024-11-13 21:04:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Goodge
This is something that crops up a lot at local authority planning level.
Whenever there's a planning application for a solar farm on agricultural
land, one of the objections is always that we need the land to grow food.
But, realistically, we need it more for growing electrons.
And of course you can grow grass under the solar panels, and graze
sheep, which we then eat.
--
Roland Perry
Roger Hayter
2024-11-13 21:32:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Mark Goodge
This is something that crops up a lot at local authority planning level.
Whenever there's a planning application for a solar farm on agricultural
land, one of the objections is always that we need the land to grow food.
But, realistically, we need it more for growing electrons.
And of course you can grow grass under the solar panels, and graze
sheep, which we then eat.
If this is true at, it is only at a vastly reduced yield. Where do you think
the energy to make electricity comes from, without depriving the grass of a
similar amount of energy?
--
Roger Hayter
JNugent
2024-11-12 18:06:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Jon Ribbens
Well certainly if the farmers do manage to cause widespread
noticeably empty supermarket shelves
As already noted (by me) the fact they could do this by preventing
imports, rather than not farming is "interesting"
Yes. One might almost think that committing Brexit while being reliant
on food imports was not the wisest possible choice.
Apart from your gratuitous jibe regarding Brexit, all you seem to be
saying is that a blockade of ports will stop food supplies wherever
they come from. There’s nothing magic about highly-subsidised EU food,
that it can jump over blockading farmers at the ports.
I didn't say there was. I wasn't saying anything about the alleged
blockade plot, I was following on from Jethro's point that the UK is
reliant on food imports.
And has been for well over a century. Which is why I tire of this
idealised bollocks that somehow UK farming can possibly "feed the
nation".
It had a good go at it during WW2.
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Jethro_uk
2024-11-12 19:12:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Jon Ribbens
Well certainly if the farmers do manage to cause widespread
noticeably empty supermarket shelves
As already noted (by me) the fact they could do this by preventing
imports, rather than not farming is "interesting"
Yes. One might almost think that committing Brexit while being
reliant on food imports was not the wisest possible choice.
Apart from your gratuitous jibe regarding Brexit, all you seem to be
saying is that a blockade of ports will stop food supplies wherever
they come from. There’s nothing magic about highly-subsidised EU food,
that it can jump over blockading farmers at the ports.
I didn't say there was. I wasn't saying anything about the alleged
blockade plot, I was following on from Jethro's point that the UK is
reliant on food imports.
And has been for well over a century. Which is why I tire of this
idealised bollocks that somehow UK farming can possibly "feed the
nation".
It had a good go at it during WW2.
Well if the regime that supported that is acceptable to todays society,
fair enough.

I'll pass over the fact that a "good go" isn't the same as "did".
Mark Goodge
2024-11-12 21:51:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Jon Ribbens
Well certainly if the farmers do manage to cause widespread
noticeably empty supermarket shelves
As already noted (by me) the fact they could do this by preventing
imports, rather than not farming is "interesting"
Yes. One might almost think that committing Brexit while being reliant
on food imports was not the wisest possible choice.
Apart from your gratuitous jibe regarding Brexit, all you seem to be
saying is that a blockade of ports will stop food supplies wherever
they come from. There’s nothing magic about highly-subsidised EU food,
that it can jump over blockading farmers at the ports.
I didn't say there was. I wasn't saying anything about the alleged
blockade plot, I was following on from Jethro's point that the UK is
reliant on food imports.
And has been for well over a century. Which is why I tire of this
idealised bollocks that somehow UK farming can possibly "feed the
nation".
It had a good go at it during WW2.
No, it didn't. Surviving the war required stringent rationing and massive
shipments of food from the US. We're actually more self-sufficient in food
now than we were during WWII.

Mark
JNugent
2024-11-12 23:49:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by JNugent
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Jon Ribbens
Well certainly if the farmers do manage to cause widespread
noticeably empty supermarket shelves
As already noted (by me) the fact they could do this by preventing
imports, rather than not farming is "interesting"
Yes. One might almost think that committing Brexit while being reliant
on food imports was not the wisest possible choice.
Apart from your gratuitous jibe regarding Brexit, all you seem to be
saying is that a blockade of ports will stop food supplies wherever
they come from. There’s nothing magic about highly-subsidised EU food,
that it can jump over blockading farmers at the ports.
I didn't say there was. I wasn't saying anything about the alleged
blockade plot, I was following on from Jethro's point that the UK is
reliant on food imports.
And has been for well over a century. Which is why I tire of this
idealised bollocks that somehow UK farming can possibly "feed the
nation".
It had a good go at it during WW2.
No, it didn't. Surviving the war required stringent rationing and massive
shipments of food from the US. We're actually more self-sufficient in food
now than we were during WWII.
The industry still did its best.
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Jethro_uk
2024-11-13 16:17:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by JNugent
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Jon Ribbens
Well certainly if the farmers do manage to cause widespread
noticeably empty supermarket shelves
As already noted (by me) the fact they could do this by
preventing imports, rather than not farming is "interesting"
Yes. One might almost think that committing Brexit while being
reliant on food imports was not the wisest possible choice.
Apart from your gratuitous jibe regarding Brexit, all you seem to
be saying is that a blockade of ports will stop food supplies
wherever they come from. There’s nothing magic about
highly-subsidised EU food,
that it can jump over blockading farmers at the ports.
I didn't say there was. I wasn't saying anything about the alleged
blockade plot, I was following on from Jethro's point that the UK is
reliant on food imports.
And has been for well over a century. Which is why I tire of this
idealised bollocks that somehow UK farming can possibly "feed the
nation".
It had a good go at it during WW2.
No, it didn't. Surviving the war required stringent rationing and
massive shipments of food from the US. We're actually more
self-sufficient in food now than we were during WWII.
The industry still did its best.
Which still wasn't good enough.

I have to admit I am struggling to see what your point is ? Are you
arguing that the UK *can* be totally self sufficient for food ?

Or not ?
JNugent
2024-11-13 18:31:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by JNugent
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by JNugent
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Jon Ribbens
Well certainly if the farmers do manage to cause widespread
noticeably empty supermarket shelves
As already noted (by me) the fact they could do this by
preventing imports, rather than not farming is "interesting"
Yes. One might almost think that committing Brexit while being
reliant on food imports was not the wisest possible choice.
Apart from your gratuitous jibe regarding Brexit, all you seem to
be saying is that a blockade of ports will stop food supplies
wherever they come from. There’s nothing magic about
highly-subsidised EU food,
that it can jump over blockading farmers at the ports.
I didn't say there was. I wasn't saying anything about the alleged
blockade plot, I was following on from Jethro's point that the UK is
reliant on food imports.
And has been for well over a century. Which is why I tire of this
idealised bollocks that somehow UK farming can possibly "feed the
nation".
It had a good go at it during WW2.
No, it didn't. Surviving the war required stringent rationing and
massive shipments of food from the US. We're actually more
self-sufficient in food now than we were during WWII.
The industry still did its best.
Which still wasn't good enough.
Which bit of "...it had a good go at it during WW2..." is incompatible
with that?

Should virtuous attempts be made only if guaranteed to work 100%?
Post by Jethro_uk
I have to admit I am struggling to see what your point is ? Are you
arguing that the UK *can* be totally self sufficient for food ?
Or not ?
The farming industry could produce more if it were incentivised to do so.

Do you deny that?
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Roger Hayter
2024-11-13 20:31:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by JNugent
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by JNugent
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Jon Ribbens
Well certainly if the farmers do manage to cause widespread
noticeably empty supermarket shelves
As already noted (by me) the fact they could do this by
preventing imports, rather than not farming is "interesting"
Yes. One might almost think that committing Brexit while being
reliant on food imports was not the wisest possible choice.
Apart from your gratuitous jibe regarding Brexit, all you seem to
be saying is that a blockade of ports will stop food supplies
wherever they come from. There’s nothing magic about
highly-subsidised EU food,
that it can jump over blockading farmers at the ports.
I didn't say there was. I wasn't saying anything about the alleged
blockade plot, I was following on from Jethro's point that the UK is
reliant on food imports.
And has been for well over a century. Which is why I tire of this
idealised bollocks that somehow UK farming can possibly "feed the
nation".
It had a good go at it during WW2.
No, it didn't. Surviving the war required stringent rationing and
massive shipments of food from the US. We're actually more
self-sufficient in food now than we were during WWII.
The industry still did its best.
Which still wasn't good enough.
Which bit of "...it had a good go at it during WW2..." is incompatible
with that?
Should virtuous attempts be made only if guaranteed to work 100%?
Post by Jethro_uk
I have to admit I am struggling to see what your point is ? Are you
arguing that the UK *can* be totally self sufficient for food ?
Or not ?
The farming industry could produce more if it were incentivised to do so.
Do you deny that?
You're fond of economics - almost any industry could produce more if the
effective price is increased. You could perhaps go on to explain diminishing
returns.
--
Roger Hayter
Roland Perry
2024-11-12 17:54:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Jon Ribbens
Well certainly if the farmers do manage to cause widespread noticeably
empty supermarket shelves
As already noted (by me) the fact they could do this by preventing
imports, rather than not farming is "interesting"
Yes. One might almost think that committing Brexit while being reliant
on food imports was not the wisest possible choice.
Apart from your gratuitous jibe regarding Brexit,
Biggest disaster in modern political history. £160 billion and counting
I think.
Post by Spike
all you seem to be saying is that a blockade of ports will stop food
supplies wherever they come from. There’s nothing magic about
highly-subsidised EU food, that it can jump over blockading farmers at
the ports.
A lot of food sold in the shops in UK comes from Netherlands and Spain.
Trucked over (with disastrously increased red tape post-Brexit). Food
from further away will often be flown in, or land at ports other than
Dover.
--
Roland Perry
Les. Hayward
2024-11-11 14:49:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by GB
The farmers might act a lot more sensibly in court, so that could affect
the sentence. On the other hand, if the farmers are seriously planning
to starve the government into submission, that's close to treason?  I
imagine there's a lot of hot air at the moment, and they may not do all
that much in the end.
Well, I was not aware that farmers were under any legal obligation to
produce food, so exactly what would be the charges? If some were trumped
up, I'd be delighted to see them extended to the likes of train drivers,
but I doubt it.
Roger Hayter
2024-11-11 15:50:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Les. Hayward
Post by GB
The farmers might act a lot more sensibly in court, so that could affect
the sentence. On the other hand, if the farmers are seriously planning
to starve the government into submission, that's close to treason? I
imagine there's a lot of hot air at the moment, and they may not do all
that much in the end.
Well, I was not aware that farmers were under any legal obligation to
produce food, so exactly what would be the charges? If some were trumped
up, I'd be delighted to see them extended to the likes of train drivers,
but I doubt it.
I suggest you read the thread. The farmers' proposal was to blockade the ports
to prevent food imports. No doubt they would continue to produce
mangel-wurzels and low quality barley to feed us.
--
Roger Hayter
Jethro_uk
2024-11-12 11:14:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Les. Hayward
Post by GB
The farmers might act a lot more sensibly in court, so that could
affect the sentence. On the other hand, if the farmers are seriously
planning to starve the government into submission, that's close to
treason? I imagine there's a lot of hot air at the moment, and they
may not do all that much in the end.
Well, I was not aware that farmers were under any legal obligation to
produce food, so exactly what would be the charges? If some were
trumped up, I'd be delighted to see them extended to the likes of train
drivers,
but I doubt it.
I suggest you read the thread. The farmers' proposal was to blockade the
ports to prevent food imports.
Rather undermines their saintly stance of "feeding the nation" doesn't
it ?
kat
2024-11-13 14:18:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Les. Hayward
Post by GB
The farmers might act a lot more sensibly in court, so that could
affect the sentence. On the other hand, if the farmers are seriously
planning to starve the government into submission, that's close to
treason? I imagine there's a lot of hot air at the moment, and they
may not do all that much in the end.
Well, I was not aware that farmers were under any legal obligation to
produce food, so exactly what would be the charges? If some were
trumped up, I'd be delighted to see them extended to the likes of train
drivers,
but I doubt it.
I suggest you read the thread. The farmers' proposal was to blockade the
ports to prevent food imports.
Rather undermines their saintly stance of "feeding the nation" doesn't
it ?
And yet they do feed 62% of it - Mark said this has been stable for a while.
despite the import of more and more people, too.

Surely it is better for the climate of the world that we grow as much as is
possible close to home?
--
kat
Post by Jethro_uk
^..^<
Mark Goodge
2024-11-13 15:29:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by kat
Surely it is better for the climate of the world that we grow as much as is
possible close to home?
"Food miles" are an issue, yes. But they're mostly an issue for high value,
luxury products that are flown half way round the world because they're not
in season here in the UK and Europe. Getting rid of those - nobody really
needs Peruvian asparagus - would be good for the environment. But it
wouldn't do a lot for food security unless people are, as Roland said
elsewhere, prepared to replace them with turnips. Because they're not going
to be able to replace them, at this time of year, with home-grown asparagus.

Mark
Roland Perry
2024-11-13 17:21:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by kat
Post by Jethro_uk
On 11 Nov 2024 at 14:49:56 GMT, ""Les. Hayward""
Post by Les. Hayward
Post by GB
The farmers might act a lot more sensibly in court, so that could
affect the sentence. On the other hand, if the farmers are seriously
planning to starve the government into submission, that's close to
treason? I imagine there's a lot of hot air at the moment, and they
may not do all that much in the end.
Well, I was not aware that farmers were under any legal obligation
to produce food, so exactly what would be the charges? If some were
trumped up, I'd be delighted to see them extended to the likes of
train drivers, but I doubt it.
I suggest you read the thread. The farmers' proposal was to blockade the
ports to prevent food imports.
Rather undermines their saintly stance of "feeding the nation"
doesn't it ?
And yet they do feed 62% of it - Mark said this has been stable for a
while. despite the import of more and more people, too.
Surely it is better for the climate of the world that we grow as much
as is possible close to home?
Not if that means growing things in centrally-heated (rather than
solar-gain heated) greenhouses.
--
Roland Perry
Spike
2024-11-10 12:07:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
Would anyone like to bet if any farmers taking part in such protests
get sentenced to 5 years in prison for the selfish public nuisance
they will create if their protests go ahead, like the Just Stop Oil
protestors did for their selfless acts?
The crucial difference between family farmers and JSO is that the former
live in the real world and the latter live in some fantasy in their heads,
and their ’selfless acts’ are merely to gain some internal psychological
satisfaction.
So presumably you're saying that farmers should receive *more* than
5 year sentences, because they will not have these alleged mental
defects to take into account as mitigation during sentencing?
I’m questioning the wisdom of projecting nut-jobs as some sort of holders
of virtue.
--
Spike
Roger Hayter
2024-11-10 11:15:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
Would anyone like to bet if any farmers taking part in such protests
get sentenced to 5 years in prison for the selfish public nuisance
they will create if their protests go ahead, like the Just Stop Oil
protestors did for their selfless acts?
The crucial difference between family farmers and JSO is that the former
live in the real world and the latter live in some fantasy in their heads,
and their ’selfless acts’ are merely to gain some internal psychological
satisfaction.
So you think criminal acts are *more* justifiable if done for financial gain
rather than fantasy ideas? Crime for profit would actually seem worse to me.
--
Roger Hayter
Spike
2024-11-10 12:07:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
Would anyone like to bet if any farmers taking part in such protests
get sentenced to 5 years in prison for the selfish public nuisance
they will create if their protests go ahead, like the Just Stop Oil
protestors did for their selfless acts?
The crucial difference between family farmers and JSO is that the former
live in the real world and the latter live in some fantasy in their heads,
and their ’selfless acts’ are merely to gain some internal psychological
satisfaction.
So you think criminal acts are *more* justifiable if done for financial gain
rather than fantasy ideas?
The huge gulf between the fantasy of JSO and the reality of the family
farmers has been played out by the lady in the US that has just
comprehensively lost her bid to be the next President.

She lost so badly because the majority of the US voters, many of whom
should have supported her, were put off doing so by the the
liberal-progressive woke-ism, climate change, BLT+QG, and similar that
exist only in their heads rather than the real world.

What the voters wanted was a stable and growing economy so they would have
jobs and could feed their kids, and expressed that through the ballot box.

Harris and the Democrats have just been given a sharp lesson in the
difference between fantasy and reality, just like JSO.
Post by Roger Hayter
Crime for profit would actually seem worse to me.
--
Spike
JNugent
2024-11-10 01:37:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
Would anyone like to bet if any farmers taking part in such protests
get sentenced to 5 years in prison for the selfish public nuisance
they will create if their protests go ahead, like the Just Stop Oil
protestors did for their selfless acts?
Have they SAID they're going to block the M25 or are you just imagining
that?
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-10 11:02:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
Would anyone like to bet if any farmers taking part in such protests
get sentenced to 5 years in prison for the selfish public nuisance
they will create if their protests go ahead, like the Just Stop Oil
protestors did for their selfless acts?
Have they SAID they're going to block the M25 or are you just imagining
that?
Have I SAID they're going to block the M25 or are you just imagining
that?

(That's a rhetorical question - you're imagining it.)

They say they want to blockade ports in order to seriously disrupt
food supplies to the public. Whichever way you slice it, that's
*much worse* than merely blocking the M25. So, assuming you would
take a logical and rational approach to this, you will surely agree
that the farmers should receive *much more* than 5 year sentences?
JNugent
2024-11-10 17:02:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by JNugent
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
Would anyone like to bet if any farmers taking part in such protests
get sentenced to 5 years in prison for the selfish public nuisance
they will create if their protests go ahead, like the Just Stop Oil
protestors did for their selfless acts?
Have they SAID they're going to block the M25 or are you just imagining
that?
Have I SAID they're going to block the M25 or are you just imagining
that?
(That's a rhetorical question - you're imagining it.)
They say they want to blockade ports in order to seriously disrupt
food supplies to the public. Whichever way you slice it, that's
*much worse* than merely blocking the M25. So, assuming you would
take a logical and rational approach to this, you will surely agree
that the farmers should receive *much more* than 5 year sentences?
If you believe that that will happen... you are much more credulous than
I had believed you to be.

Be clear: It WON'T happen.
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-10 20:49:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by JNugent
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
Would anyone like to bet if any farmers taking part in such protests
get sentenced to 5 years in prison for the selfish public nuisance
they will create if their protests go ahead, like the Just Stop Oil
protestors did for their selfless acts?
Have they SAID they're going to block the M25 or are you just imagining
that?
Have I SAID they're going to block the M25 or are you just imagining
that?
(That's a rhetorical question - you're imagining it.)
They say they want to blockade ports in order to seriously disrupt
food supplies to the public. Whichever way you slice it, that's
*much worse* than merely blocking the M25. So, assuming you would
take a logical and rational approach to this, you will surely agree
that the farmers should receive *much more* than 5 year sentences?
If you believe that that will happen... you are much more credulous than
I had believed you to be.
Be clear: It WON'T happen.
What won't happen?

If you mean the farmers won't get sentenced to more than 5 years
(or even as much as 5 years) then I am a little astonished that
you have failed to spot that that was my point all along - the
two-tier justice system in this country means that they will be
protected by the establishment.

If you mean that it is somehow inherently implausible that farmers
could or would blockade ports then you must be much younger than
I had believed you to be such that you cannot remember the "fuel
protests" of the 2000s, which involved blockades of refineries.
JNugent
2024-11-10 22:24:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by JNugent
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by JNugent
Post by Jon Ribbens
Apparently farmers are planning blockades to protest against ...
<checks notes> ... only getting huge discounts on inheritance tax
rather than total immunity.
Would anyone like to bet if any farmers taking part in such protests
get sentenced to 5 years in prison for the selfish public nuisance
they will create if their protests go ahead, like the Just Stop Oil
protestors did for their selfless acts?
Have they SAID they're going to block the M25 or are you just imagining
that?
Have I SAID they're going to block the M25 or are you just imagining
that?
(That's a rhetorical question - you're imagining it.)
They say they want to blockade ports in order to seriously disrupt
food supplies to the public. Whichever way you slice it, that's
*much worse* than merely blocking the M25. So, assuming you would
take a logical and rational approach to this, you will surely agree
that the farmers should receive *much more* than 5 year sentences?
If you believe that that will happen... you are much more credulous than
I had believed you to be.
Be clear: It WON'T happen.
What won't happen?
If you mean the farmers won't get sentenced to more than 5 years
(or even as much as 5 years) then I am a little astonished that
you have failed to spot that that was my point all along - the
two-tier justice system in this country means that they will be
protected by the establishment.
If you mean that it is somehow inherently implausible that farmers
could or would blockade ports then you must be much younger than
I had believed you to be such that you cannot remember the "fuel
protests" of the 2000s, which involved blockades of refineries.
Was it *farmers* driving all those tankers?

The news outlets all kept that quiet!

But don't forget - those tanker drivers (whether farmers or not) had the
wholehearted support of the nation in their protest in the UK's move
from having the cheapest petrol in Europe (under the Major government)
to the most expensive petrol in Europe (under Blair, Brown and Balls)
all in under three years.

The tanker-drivers' leaders should have eventually been given seats in
the HoL.
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Loading...