Fourteen years

Discussion:

Fourteen years

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Jon Ribbens

2024-09-06 12:06:07 UTC

A certain Mr Thomas Birley has been sentenced today for his part in
arson and rioting at a Rotherham hotel last month. The sentence seems
to mostly be being reported as "nine years" but the detail then reveals
that it's "nine years in custody with five years on license as part of
a 14-year extended sentence". Wouldn't this normally be reported as
"14 years"? Why isn't it being reported that way? Are the journalists
just confused?

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/man-jailed-9-years-setting-fire-asylum-seekers-hotel-uk-anti-muslim-riots-2024-09-06/
https://news.sky.com/story/thomas-birley-arsonist-involved-in-fire-outside-migrant-hotel-handed-longest-sentence-yet-over-uk-riots-13210468
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/uk-riots-arson-targeted-asylum-hotel-b2608157.html
https://www.centralfm.co.uk/news/latest-headlines/thomas-birley-arsonist-involved-in-fire-outside-migrant-hotel-handed-longest-sentence-yet-over-uk-riots/

Jeff Gaines

2024-09-06 12:35:04 UTC

Permalink

Post by Jon Ribbens
A certain Mr Thomas Birley has been sentenced today for his part in
arson and rioting at a Rotherham hotel last month. The sentence seems
to mostly be being reported as "nine years" but the detail then reveals
that it's "nine years in custody with five years on license as part of
a 14-year extended sentence". Wouldn't this normally be reported as
"14 years"? Why isn't it being reported that way? Are the journalists
just confused?
https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/man-jailed-9-years-setting-fire-asylum-seekers-hotel-uk-anti-muslim-riots-2024-09-06/
https://news.sky.com/story/thomas-birley-arsonist-involved-in-fire-outside-migrant-hotel-handed-longest-sentence-yet-over-uk-riots-13210468
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/uk-riots-arson-targeted-asylum-hotel-b2608157.html
https://www.centralfm.co.uk/news/latest-headlines/thomas-birley-arsonist-involved-in-fire-outside-migrant-hotel-handed-longest-sentence-yet-over-uk-riots/

The BBC says:

"He was sentenced at Sheffield Crown Court to nine years in prison, with a
five-year extension on licence".

He would normally expect release after 4.5 years presumably so the
extension would follow that?

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
Every day is a good day for chicken, unless you're a chicken.

Jon Ribbens

2024-09-06 12:42:11 UTC

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Post by Jeff Gaines

"He was sentenced at Sheffield Crown Court to nine years in prison, with a
five-year extension on licence".
He would normally expect release after 4.5 years presumably so the
extension would follow that?

I don't think that's correct. I think the "release at half-way" rule
(which is presumably now actually "release at 40%") only applies to
sentences under 4 years and as far as I can see the rule above that
is "release after two-thirds", which for 14 years is... about 9 years.

The Todal

2024-09-06 13:22:19 UTC

Permalink

Post by Jon Ribbens

Post by Jeff Gaines

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/R-v-Birley-6th-Spetember-2024.pdf

The sentence I pass upon you in total is an Extended Sentence of 14 years.
The custodial term is 9 years.
The extension period is 5 years.
The individual sentences are as follows:
Arson with Intent to Endanger Life – an Extended Sentence of 14
years in the way I have just explained. That reflects overall criminality.
Violent Disorder – 2 years 8 months imprisonment to be served
concurrently.
Possession of an Offensive Weapon – 12 Months imprisonment to be
served concurrently.

Jon Ribbens

2024-09-06 14:38:54 UTC

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Post by The Todal

Post by Jon Ribbens

Post by Jeff Gaines

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/R-v-Birley-6th-Spetember-2024.pdf
The sentence I pass upon you in total is an Extended Sentence of 14 years.
The custodial term is 9 years.
The extension period is 5 years.
Arson with Intent to Endanger Life – an Extended Sentence of 14
years in the way I have just explained. That reflects overall criminality.
Violent Disorder – 2 years 8 months imprisonment to be served
concurrently.
Possession of an Offensive Weapon – 12 Months imprisonment to be
served concurrently.

Ok so it is a "9 year" sentence as we normally understand it, with
extra time on licence at the end - he'll have 6 years actually in
prison (2/3 of 9) followed by the remaining 3 years of the basic
sentence on licence followed by an extended period on licence of
another 5 years (this appears to be the maximum allowed under
s256(4) of the Sentencing Act 2020).

miked

2024-09-06 21:32:19 UTC

Permalink

Post by The Todal

Post by Jon Ribbens

On 06/09/2024 in message

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/R-v-Birley-6th-Spetember-2024.pdf
The sentence I pass upon you in total is an Extended Sentence of 14 years.
The custodial term is 9 years.
The extension period is 5 years.
Arson with Intent to Endanger Life – an Extended Sentence of 14
years in the way I have just explained. That reflects overall
criminality.
Violent Disorder – 2 years 8 months imprisonment to be served
concurrently.
Possession of an Offensive Weapon – 12 Months imprisonment to be
served concurrently.

Has this concurrently always been in UK sentencing? Can the judge decide
instead not to make the sentences for the separate offences concurrent
if he wants to? I always thought it odd, becos whats the point of being
convicted on 3 or 10 different charges if you only serve sentence for 1
of them? In america I dont think they do this and so people can
sometimes end up being sentenced to 100s of years! But if say youve been
convicted on 3 charges of GBH none of them more than 5 years, why should
you serve them all concurrently if there were 3 people injured [i'm
thinking of a case which was in the local paper]? Surely 2 of those
victims are not getting justice?

mike

Jon Ribbens

2024-09-06 22:16:08 UTC

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Post by miked

Post by The Todal
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/R-v-Birley-6th-Spetember-2024.pdf
The sentence I pass upon you in total is an Extended Sentence of 14 years.
The custodial term is 9 years.
The extension period is 5 years.
Arson with Intent to Endanger Life – an Extended Sentence of 14
years in the way I have just explained. That reflects overall
criminality.
Violent Disorder – 2 years 8 months imprisonment to be served
concurrently.
Possession of an Offensive Weapon – 12 Months imprisonment to be
served concurrently.

You generally get concurrent sentencing if it's a series of offences
of the same kind or the offences all arise from the same incident.
Obviously you're right that this could in principle lead to injustice
in extremis, but it's also true that the opposite extreme would often
by unjust too. Which is why the rule isn't hard-and-fast, and the
judge can decide what's the most just outcome in the circumstances.

Andy Burns

2024-09-07 11:24:08 UTC

Permalink

Post by miked
Has this concurrently always been in UK sentencing? Can the judge decide
instead not to make the sentences for the separate offences concurrent
if he wants to?

Where else would the old joke come from, about even the most illiterate
scrote being up before the beak knowing the difference between
consecutive and concurrent?

Mark Goodge

2024-09-06 20:17:01 UTC

Permalink

On Fri, 6 Sep 2024 12:06:07 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens

I think you'll find the answer is here:

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/sentencing-and-the-council/types-of-sentence/extended-sentences/

To summarise, an extended licence is a specific additional aspect to a
custody sentence, which extends the licence period beyond that which the
offender would normally serve after being released on licence.

So, for example, someone sentenced to nine years would normally be eligible
for parole after 2/3rds of the sentence (ie, six years). If granted, they
will serve six years in prison and three years on licence. Or, if they stay
in prison for the entire term, they will serve nine years inside, but will
be completely free the moment they leave.

In this particular case, the offender has been given nine years plus an
additional five years of extended licence. So, while he may still be
released on licence after six years, if he is, then his time on licence will
be eight years (three on parole and five extended). Or, if he serves the
full nine years, he will still be on licence for five years after getting
out. Either way, the overall sentence is still 14 years, but it's a
nine-year jail term (of which six will probably be served) followed by five
years of extended licence rather than a 14 year jail term of which nine will
be served.

Mark

Jon Ribbens

2024-09-06 22:08:33 UTC

Permalink

Post by Mark Goodge
On Fri, 6 Sep 2024 12:06:07 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/sentencing-and-the-council/types-of-sentence/extended-sentences/
To summarise, an extended licence is a specific additional aspect to a
custody sentence, which extends the licence period beyond that which the
offender would normally serve after being released on licence.
So, for example, someone sentenced to nine years would normally be eligible
for parole after 2/3rds of the sentence (ie, six years). If granted, they
will serve six years in prison and three years on licence. Or, if they stay
in prison for the entire term, they will serve nine years inside, but will
be completely free the moment they leave.
In this particular case, the offender has been given nine years plus an
additional five years of extended licence.

Yes, the thing that confused me was that 9 years / (9 + 5) years is
more or less 2/3, so it looked very like standard misreporting of a
14-year sentence.