Discussion:
AI-generated IP: Who owns it?
(too old to reply)
J Newman
2024-12-30 07:36:09 UTC
Permalink
Given that current IP law requires the inventors to be human, who owns
the IP of inventions created by AI?

If the owners of a company that made an invention through AI claim it is
theirs, and someone challenges their ownership based on the allegation
that the invention came from AI, would the patent be defensible?

For example there are companies out there that openly claim to be using
AI to accelerate their business development processes. So it may not be
difficult for people who want to challenge AI-generated patents to prove
that the patents were in fact not derived from a human.


Martin Brown
2024-12-30 11:54:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by J Newman
Given that current IP law requires the inventors to be human, who owns
the IP of inventions created by AI?
If the owners of a company that made an invention through AI claim it is
theirs, and someone challenges their ownership based on the allegation
that the invention came from AI, would the patent be defensible?
For example there are companies out there that openly claim to be using
AI to accelerate their business development processes. So it may not be
difficult for people who want to challenge AI-generated patents to prove
that the patents were in fact not derived from a human.
http://youtu.be/IrLJEzUxIs0
Given that most AI is still directed by a human and is short circuiting
the grunt work then the inventor could be reasonably considered to be
the natural human who asked the right question of the AI.

Shades of "I Robot"...


It will get a lot harder to decide on an human inventor when AI is
capable of undertaking completely blue sky research on its own. We are
already at the stage where no human truly understands the next
generation of AI chips that were largely designed by AI or with
assistance from AI toolchains.

We are getting quite close to the singularity where AI becomes more
intelligent than the smartest humans. For some narrow problem domains
chess and go the machines already have overtaken mere humans.

ISTR someone tried and failed to get an AI registered two years ago as
the inventor of a patent in the UK supreme court:

https://www.reuters.com/technology/ai-cannot-be-patent-inventor-uk-supreme-court-rules-landmark-case-2023-12-20/
--
Martin Brown
Jethro_uk
2024-12-30 13:59:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Brown
We are getting quite close to the singularity where AI becomes more
intelligent than the smartest humans. For some narrow problem domains
chess and go the machines already have overtaken mere humans.
Not really.

When "AI" can strip out all the crud from a webpage, then maybe - *maybe*
- I will reconsider.

The list of what "AI" can't do is still larger than the list of what it
can do. And even then that's in a very curated environment.
Sir Tim
2024-12-31 10:31:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Martin Brown
We are getting quite close to the singularity where AI becomes more
intelligent than the smartest humans. For some narrow problem domains
chess and go the machines already have overtaken mere humans.
Not really.
When "AI" can strip out all the crud from a webpage, then maybe - *maybe*
- I will reconsider.
The list of what "AI" can't do is still larger than the list of what it
can do. And even then that's in a very curated environment.
Kipling’s poem “The Secret of Machines”, written way back in 1911, is
rather apposite here:

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46786/the-secret-of-the-machines
--
Sir Tim
Tim Jackson
2024-12-30 14:01:59 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 30 Dec 2024 11:54:17 +0000, Martin Brown wrote...
Post by Martin Brown
ISTR someone tried and failed to get an AI registered two years ago as
https://www.reuters.com/technology/ai-cannot-be-patent-inventor-uk-supreme-court-rules-landmark-case-2023-12-20/
The patent applicant, Dr Thaler, has been testing the law on this
subject in a number of countries, not just the UK. He has mostly
failed, as patent law assumes there is a human inventor.

<quote>

The 1977 Act in its current form "does not confer on any person a right
to obtain a patent for any new product or process created or generated
autonomously by a machine, such as DABUS, let alone a person who claims
that right purely on the basis of ownership of the machine".

However, what "generated autonomously" means, and whether the technical
advances the subject of Dr Thaler's patent applications were in fact
"generated autonomously" by DABUS, were not explored - Dr Thaler's
appeal was pursued on the basis that that factual assumption was
correct. It was not at any point Dr Thaler's case that he was the
inventor and had used DABUS as a highly sophisticated tool. Lord Kitchin
said:

"Had he done so, the outcome of these proceedings might well have been
different."

<end quote>

https://tinyurl.com/4a82j88y
-or-
https://gowlingwlg.com/en-gb/insights-resources/articles/2024/patent-
applications-must-identify-human-inventors

Scroll down to "Unanswered questions" for a discussion on whether and in
what circumstances Dr Thaler himself might have claimed to be the
inventor, by himself, or jointly with the AI.
--
Tim Jackson
***@timjackson.invalid
(Change '.invalid' to '.plus.com' to reply direct)
Jon Ribbens
2024-12-30 12:21:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by J Newman
Given that current IP law requires the inventors to be human, who owns
the IP of inventions created by AI?
The millions of people whose copyright the "AI" infringed in order to
produce its output.
Norman Wells
2024-12-30 13:48:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by J Newman
Given that current IP law requires the inventors to be human, who owns
the IP of inventions created by AI?
The millions of people whose copyright the "AI" infringed in order to
produce its output.
Hardly. There is no copyright in information, only in the way it is
particularly expressed.
Tim Jackson
2024-12-31 02:27:07 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 30 Dec 2024 13:48:50 +0000, Norman Wells wrote...
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by J Newman
Given that current IP law requires the inventors to be human, who owns
the IP of inventions created by AI?
The millions of people whose copyright the "AI" infringed in order to
produce its output.
Hardly. There is no copyright in information, only in the way it is
particularly expressed.
That idea/expression dichotomy rather depends on the individual
circumstances of each case.

The test is whether, in any particular case, the AI has reproduced a
'substantial part' of one or more original copyright works. As opposed
to just taking the underlying ideas.

I agree that there is unlikely to be infringement of "millions" of
copyright works, but there might be of some, depending how sophisticated
the AI is.
--
Tim Jackson
***@timjackson.invalid
(Change '.invalid' to '.plus.com' to reply direct)
Jon Ribbens
2024-12-31 03:14:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Jackson
On Mon, 30 Dec 2024 13:48:50 +0000, Norman Wells wrote...
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by J Newman
Given that current IP law requires the inventors to be human, who owns
the IP of inventions created by AI?
The millions of people whose copyright the "AI" infringed in order to
produce its output.
Hardly. There is no copyright in information, only in the way it is
particularly expressed.
That idea/expression dichotomy rather depends on the individual
circumstances of each case.
The test is whether, in any particular case, the AI has reproduced a
'substantial part' of one or more original copyright works. As opposed
to just taking the underlying ideas.
I agree that there is unlikely to be infringement of "millions" of
copyright works, but there might be of some, depending how sophisticated
the AI is.
The "AI" isn't capable of dealing with ideas. It just mixes together
the works it has unlawfully copied and produces something derivative.
J Newman
2024-12-31 03:33:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Tim Jackson
On Mon, 30 Dec 2024 13:48:50 +0000, Norman Wells wrote...
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by J Newman
Given that current IP law requires the inventors to be human, who owns
the IP of inventions created by AI?
The millions of people whose copyright the "AI" infringed in order to
produce its output.
Hardly. There is no copyright in information, only in the way it is
particularly expressed.
That idea/expression dichotomy rather depends on the individual
circumstances of each case.
The test is whether, in any particular case, the AI has reproduced a
'substantial part' of one or more original copyright works. As opposed
to just taking the underlying ideas.
I agree that there is unlikely to be infringement of "millions" of
copyright works, but there might be of some, depending how sophisticated
the AI is.
The "AI" isn't capable of dealing with ideas. It just mixes together
the works it has unlawfully copied and produces something derivative.
How do you determine that the AI has unlawfully copied works to create a
derivative?

And how is this different from many human inventions?

Would you say that all the patents granted to human inventors up to now
were not "unlawfully" copied or derived from someone else's works?
Jon Ribbens
2024-12-31 12:23:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by J Newman
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Tim Jackson
On Mon, 30 Dec 2024 13:48:50 +0000, Norman Wells wrote...
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by J Newman
Given that current IP law requires the inventors to be human, who owns
the IP of inventions created by AI?
The millions of people whose copyright the "AI" infringed in order to
produce its output.
Hardly. There is no copyright in information, only in the way it is
particularly expressed.
That idea/expression dichotomy rather depends on the individual
circumstances of each case.
The test is whether, in any particular case, the AI has reproduced a
'substantial part' of one or more original copyright works. As opposed
to just taking the underlying ideas.
I agree that there is unlikely to be infringement of "millions" of
copyright works, but there might be of some, depending how sophisticated
the AI is.
The "AI" isn't capable of dealing with ideas. It just mixes together
the works it has unlawfully copied and produces something derivative.
How do you determine that the AI has unlawfully copied works to create a
derivative?
I believe the usual method is to ask a judge.
Post by J Newman
And how is this different from many human inventions?
Would you say that all the patents granted to human inventors up to now
were not "unlawfully" copied or derived from someone else's works?
I refer you to the post you are replying to.
Spike
2024-12-31 09:31:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Tim Jackson
On Mon, 30 Dec 2024 13:48:50 +0000, Norman Wells wrote...
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by J Newman
Given that current IP law requires the inventors to be human, who owns
the IP of inventions created by AI?
The millions of people whose copyright the "AI" infringed in order to
produce its output.
Hardly. There is no copyright in information, only in the way it is
particularly expressed.
That idea/expression dichotomy rather depends on the individual
circumstances of each case.
The test is whether, in any particular case, the AI has reproduced a
'substantial part' of one or more original copyright works. As opposed
to just taking the underlying ideas.
I agree that there is unlikely to be infringement of "millions" of
copyright works, but there might be of some, depending how sophisticated
the AI is.
The "AI" isn't capable of dealing with ideas. It just mixes together
the works it has unlawfully copied and produces something derivative.
Quite.

I’m still waiting for a list of things that AI has discovered that weren’t
known before.
--
Spike
Martin Brown
2024-12-31 13:28:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Tim Jackson
On Mon, 30 Dec 2024 13:48:50 +0000, Norman Wells wrote...
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by J Newman
Given that current IP law requires the inventors to be human, who owns
the IP of inventions created by AI?
The millions of people whose copyright the "AI" infringed in order to
produce its output.
Hardly. There is no copyright in information, only in the way it is
particularly expressed.
That idea/expression dichotomy rather depends on the individual
circumstances of each case.
The test is whether, in any particular case, the AI has reproduced a
'substantial part' of one or more original copyright works. As opposed
to just taking the underlying ideas.
I agree that there is unlikely to be infringement of "millions" of
copyright works, but there might be of some, depending how sophisticated
the AI is.
The "AI" isn't capable of dealing with ideas. It just mixes together
the works it has unlawfully copied and produces something derivative.
Quite.
I’m still waiting for a list of things that AI has discovered that weren’t
known before.
The earliest one was probably the verification of the proof of the 4
colour map theorem (guided by humans as most such tools still need to
be). That was back in 2005 using a general purpose theorem prover.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem

Earlier AI symbolic algebra tools found some cute results in general
relativity too but they were credited to the author(s) of the code.

More recently Google DeepMind is now as good as a silver medalist at the
International Maths Olympiad (and that is *seriously* good). I grant you
that isn't general intelligence but it is now very close to being able
to beat all but the very best mathematicians on the planet.

https://ukmt.org.uk/deepminds-ai-achieves-breakthrough-in-solving-international-mathematical-olympiad-problems

and at mathematics research level AI tools are getting very good now

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ai-will-become-mathematicians-co-pilot/

AI already has the edge over humans for large scale chip design.
--
Martin Brown
Jon Ribbens
2024-12-31 13:54:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Spike
I’m still waiting for a list of things that AI has discovered that weren’t
known before.
The earliest one was probably the verification of the proof of the 4
colour map theorem (guided by humans as most such tools still need to
be). That was back in 2005 using a general purpose theorem prover.
All the *intelligent* part of that work was done by humans (reducing
the problem to a large but finite set). All the computer did is the
brute-force work of checking each member of the set, which required
no intelligence.
Spike
2024-12-31 13:47:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Spike
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Tim Jackson
On Mon, 30 Dec 2024 13:48:50 +0000, Norman Wells wrote...
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by J Newman
Given that current IP law requires the inventors to be human, who owns
the IP of inventions created by AI?
The millions of people whose copyright the "AI" infringed in order to
produce its output.
Hardly. There is no copyright in information, only in the way it is
particularly expressed.
That idea/expression dichotomy rather depends on the individual
circumstances of each case.
The test is whether, in any particular case, the AI has reproduced a
'substantial part' of one or more original copyright works. As opposed
to just taking the underlying ideas.
I agree that there is unlikely to be infringement of "millions" of
copyright works, but there might be of some, depending how sophisticated
the AI is.
The "AI" isn't capable of dealing with ideas. It just mixes together
the works it has unlawfully copied and produces something derivative.
Quite.
I’m still waiting for a list of things that AI has discovered that weren’t
known before.
The earliest one was probably the verification of the proof of the 4
colour map theorem (guided by humans as most such tools still need to
be). That was back in 2005 using a general purpose theorem prover.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem
That says that the Four Colour Theorem was proved in the 1990s, presumably
before the coming of AI.
Post by Martin Brown
Earlier AI symbolic algebra tools found some cute results in general
relativity too but they were credited to the author(s) of the code.
More recently Google DeepMind is now as good as a silver medalist at the
International Maths Olympiad (and that is *seriously* good). I grant you
that isn't general intelligence but it is now very close to being able
to beat all but the very best mathematicians on the planet.
It’s got a better memory and doesn’t need to sleep or eat but is not
necessarily deeper thinking.
Post by Martin Brown
https://ukmt.org.uk/deepminds-ai-achieves-breakthrough-in-solving-international-mathematical-olympiad-problems
and at mathematics research level AI tools are getting very good now
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ai-will-become-mathematicians-co-pilot/
AI already has the edge over humans for large scale chip design.
But it’s all algorithmic! It merely means that AI has more memory and
faster processing than the human brain.

What has AI discovered that wasn’t known about before?
--
Spike
Jethro_uk
2024-12-31 17:04:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Spike
[quoted text muted]
[quoted text muted]
That says that the Four Colour Theorem was proved in the 1990s,
presumably before the coming of AI.
The late Dr. Christopher Evans refers to it as being solved by computer
in his excellent "The Mighty Micro" in 1979. A book which still has one
of the best examinations of artificial intelligence I have ever read.
Pamela
2025-01-02 12:21:17 UTC
Permalink
[trimmed]
Earlier AI symbolic algebra tools found some cute results in general
relativity too but they were credited to the author(s) of the code.
More recently Google DeepMind is now as good as a silver medalist at
the International Maths Olympiad (and that is *seriously* good). I
grant you that isn't general intelligence but it is now very close to
being able to beat all but the very best mathematicians on the
planet.
It’s got a better memory and doesn’t need to sleep or eat but is
not necessarily deeper thinking.
https://ukmt.org.uk/deepminds-ai-achieves-breakthrough-in-
solving-international-mathematical-olympiad-problems
and at mathematics research level AI tools are getting very good now
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ai-will-become-
mathematicians-co-pilot/
AI already has the edge over humans for large scale chip design.
But it’s all algorithmic! It merely means that AI has more memory
and faster processing than the human brain.
What has AI discovered that wasn’t known about before?
Isn't one of the features of AI that it can learn from experience,
sometimes in near real time? That's more than being simply algorithmic.
Jethro_uk
2025-01-02 15:06:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela
[trimmed]
Earlier AI symbolic algebra tools found some cute results in general
relativity too but they were credited to the author(s) of the code.
More recently Google DeepMind is now as good as a silver medalist at
the International Maths Olympiad (and that is *seriously* good). I
grant you that isn't general intelligence but it is now very close to
being able to beat all but the very best mathematicians on the planet.
It’s got a better memory and doesn’t need to sleep or eat but is not
necessarily deeper thinking.
https://ukmt.org.uk/deepminds-ai-achieves-breakthrough-in-
solving-international-mathematical-olympiad-problems
and at mathematics research level AI tools are getting very good now
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ai-will-become-
mathematicians-co-pilot/
AI already has the edge over humans for large scale chip design.
But it’s all algorithmic! It merely means that AI has more memory and
faster processing than the human brain.
What has AI discovered that wasn’t known about before?
Isn't one of the features of AI that it can learn from experience,
sometimes in near real time? That's more than being simply algorithmic.
However in doing so it axiomatically has to discard previously
constructed connections. Which is where the fun starts.

Write large, that has already happened to the internet. There are pages,
documents, pictures and other content which has simply disappeared from
the internet. Time is a powerful and unforgiving sieve.
Spike
2025-01-02 16:58:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Spike
[trimmed]
Earlier AI symbolic algebra tools found some cute results in general
relativity too but they were credited to the author(s) of the code.
More recently Google DeepMind is now as good as a silver medalist at
the International Maths Olympiad (and that is *seriously* good). I
grant you that isn't general intelligence but it is now very close to
being able to beat all but the very best mathematicians on the
planet.
It’s got a better memory and doesn’t need to sleep or eat but is
not necessarily deeper thinking.
https://ukmt.org.uk/deepminds-ai-achieves-breakthrough-in-
solving-international-mathematical-olympiad-problems
and at mathematics research level AI tools are getting very good now
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ai-will-become-
mathematicians-co-pilot/
AI already has the edge over humans for large scale chip design.
But it’s all algorithmic! It merely means that AI has more memory
and faster processing than the human brain.
What has AI discovered that wasn’t known about before?
Isn't one of the features of AI that it can learn from experience,
sometimes in near real time? That's more than being simply algorithmic.
The Colossus computer of WWII could make decisions based on its experience,
the operator merely watched the printout as the key tape and the code tape
looped through, to see when it turned from gibberish to German.
--
Spike
Martin Brown
2024-12-31 10:58:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Tim Jackson
On Mon, 30 Dec 2024 13:48:50 +0000, Norman Wells wrote...
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by J Newman
Given that current IP law requires the inventors to be human, who owns
the IP of inventions created by AI?
The millions of people whose copyright the "AI" infringed in order to
produce its output.
Hardly. There is no copyright in information, only in the way it is
particularly expressed.
That idea/expression dichotomy rather depends on the individual
circumstances of each case.
The test is whether, in any particular case, the AI has reproduced a
'substantial part' of one or more original copyright works. As opposed
to just taking the underlying ideas.
I agree that there is unlikely to be infringement of "millions" of
copyright works, but there might be of some, depending how sophisticated
the AI is.
The "AI" isn't capable of dealing with ideas. It just mixes together
the works it has unlawfully copied and produces something derivative.
That is debatable for the AI derivatives of Google's Alpha-Go-Zero.

It was able to boot strap itself up from the rules of Go to beyond human
levels of play in about 2 months. In the process it found novel live
puzzle positions that had never been recorded in over two millennia of
human play. That is by any reasonable definition non obvious creative
invention even if it was largely done by a combination of brute force
and very sophisticated Monte-Carlo search algorithms.

https://medium.com/applied-data-science/alphago-zero-explained-in-one-diagram-365f5abf67e0

It hasn't used anything of human knowledge beyond the statement of rules
of the game to reach that standard - it is entirely self taught.

Much of the ChatGPT style generative AI has been taught by reading
documents freely available on the Internet and digital archives. That
does tend to produce a pastiche of previous copyright material. ChatGPT
also tends to invent factoids and spurious references to support its
arguments which can catch out unwary plagiarists using it for homework.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/jun/23/two-us-lawyers-fined-submitting-fake-court-citations-chatgpt

AI can also learn to imitate a human voice accurately from a worryingly
small sample of the spoken word. Telephone banking with "My word is my
password" will cause a lot of trouble in the not so distant future. R4
You and Yours tested it on air fairly recently and got in first time.
--
Martin Brown
Jon Ribbens
2024-12-31 13:22:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Jon Ribbens
The "AI" isn't capable of dealing with ideas. It just mixes together
the works it has unlawfully copied and produces something derivative.
That is debatable for the AI derivatives of Google's Alpha-Go-Zero.
It was able to boot strap itself up from the rules of Go to beyond human
levels of play in about 2 months. In the process it found novel live
puzzle positions that had never been recorded in over two millennia of
human play. That is by any reasonable definition non obvious creative
invention even if it was largely done by a combination of brute force
and very sophisticated Monte-Carlo search algorithms.
You've just explained why it was neither creative nor invention. This
sort of thing is a minor evolution of algorithms which were explained
in hobbyist computer magazines in the 1980s. The main difference is
that computers have become spectacularly fast with enormous amounts of
storage.
Post by Martin Brown
AI can also learn to imitate a human voice accurately from a worryingly
small sample of the spoken word. Telephone banking with "My word is my
password" will cause a lot of trouble in the not so distant future. R4
You and Yours tested it on air fairly recently and got in first time.
My voice is my passport verify me.
Jethro_uk
2024-12-31 17:07:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
[quoted text muted]
You've just explained why it was neither creative nor invention. This
sort of thing is a minor evolution of algorithms which were explained in
hobbyist computer magazines in the 1980s. The main difference is that
computers have become spectacularly fast with enormous amounts of
storage.
*All* "AI" is just sophisticated pattern matching on steroids.

It may eventually be determined that is all "intelligence" is anyway.
However no one has even come close.

The problem with all this bollocks about "AI" is that we still can't
_really_ define the "intelligence" bit. "Artificial" is easy.
Martin Brown
2024-12-31 17:46:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Jon Ribbens
[quoted text muted]
You've just explained why it was neither creative nor invention. This
sort of thing is a minor evolution of algorithms which were explained in
hobbyist computer magazines in the 1980s. The main difference is that
computers have become spectacularly fast with enormous amounts of
storage.
You are probably right to be afraid of it. Alpha Go Zero is in a
completely different league to its ancestors like DeepBlue (Chess) or
even more distant Samuels Chequers(Draughts) program.

I never expected to see a machine that could play Go in my lifetime. The
move tree explodes way too quickly with search depth on a 19x19 board.

Today it is hard to find any commercial chess program that doesn't play
better than DeepBlue (dedicated hardware) did back in 1997.
Post by Jethro_uk
*All* "AI" is just sophisticated pattern matching on steroids.
It may eventually be determined that is all "intelligence" is anyway.
However no one has even come close.
It is fairly likely that "intelligence" *is* just sophisticated pattern
matching on steroids. Most human inventiveness comes from seeing
connections between disparate fields of endeavour that can be exploited
to obtain a novel solution to a long standing problem.

It is particularly true when a new development in mathematics suddenly
allows intractable physics problems to be represented in novel notation.
Post by Jethro_uk
The problem with all this bollocks about "AI" is that we still can't
_really_ define the "intelligence" bit. "Artificial" is easy.
I suspect that we will know it when we see it.

AI's that are as smart as people (and probably smarter than most people)
are not that far away now. One more order of magnitude improvement in
computational performance ought to do it. Then the problem will be doing
it using a lot less power than is required at present.

My own view is that intelligence and possibly self awareness are
emergent properties of any sufficiently complicated computational network.
--
Martin Brown
Jethro_uk
2024-12-31 18:22:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Jon Ribbens
[quoted text muted]
You've just explained why it was neither creative nor invention. This
sort of thing is a minor evolution of algorithms which were explained
in hobbyist computer magazines in the 1980s. The main difference is
that computers have become spectacularly fast with enormous amounts of
storage.
You are probably right to be afraid of it. Alpha Go Zero is in a
completely different league to its ancestors like DeepBlue (Chess) or
even more distant Samuels Chequers(Draughts) program.
Who says I was "afraid" of it. It holds no fears for me.

Now the sort of people who insist it is infallible .... *they* scare me.
Post by Martin Brown
I never expected to see a machine that could play Go in my lifetime. The
move tree explodes way too quickly with search depth on a 19x19 board.
Today it is hard to find any commercial chess program that doesn't play
better than DeepBlue (dedicated hardware) did back in 1997.
Post by Jethro_uk
*All* "AI" is just sophisticated pattern matching on steroids.
It may eventually be determined that is all "intelligence" is anyway.
However no one has even come close.
It is fairly likely that "intelligence" *is* just sophisticated pattern
matching on steroids. Most human inventiveness comes from seeing
connections between disparate fields of endeavour that can be exploited
to obtain a novel solution to a long standing problem.
The fact your answer is not absolute proves my point about being unable
to define intelligence ....
Post by Martin Brown
It is particularly true when a new development in mathematics suddenly
allows intractable physics problems to be represented in novel notation.
Post by Jethro_uk
The problem with all this bollocks about "AI" is that we still can't
_really_ define the "intelligence" bit. "Artificial" is easy.
I suspect that we will know it when we see it.
Interesting parallel to another question about something that was hard to
define :)
Post by Martin Brown
AI's that are as smart as people (and probably smarter than most people)
are not that far away now. One more order of magnitude improvement in
computational performance ought to do it. Then the problem will be doing
it using a lot less power than is required at present.
My own view is that intelligence and possibly self awareness are
emergent properties of any sufficiently complicated computational network.
That has yet to be shown. Same way that life itself as an emergent
property of chemistry has yet to be shown. And like intelligence, it's
entirely possible we may not recognise forms of life that aren't
analogous to our own on earth.
Mike Scott
2024-12-31 19:15:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Brown
My own view is that intelligence and possibly self awareness are
emergent properties of any sufficiently complicated computational network.
'The moon is a harsh mistress' was a good read back in the day. Sad
ending though IMO. Heinlein.
--
Mike Scott
Harlow, England
Mark Goodge
2024-12-31 22:06:54 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 19:15:15 +0000, Mike Scott
Post by Mike Scott
Post by Martin Brown
My own view is that intelligence and possibly self awareness are
emergent properties of any sufficiently complicated computational network.
'The moon is a harsh mistress' was a good read back in the day. Sad
ending though IMO. Heinlein.
It can be quite amusing to ask Siri, Alexa, et al to open the pod bay doors.

Mark
Spike
2025-01-01 00:28:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Goodge
It can be quite amusing to ask Siri, Alexa, et al to open the pod bay doors.
What happens if you ask Siri et al to open the bomb bay doors?
--
Spike
Tim Jackson
2024-12-31 16:47:17 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 03:14:44 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens wrote...
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Tim Jackson
On Mon, 30 Dec 2024 13:48:50 +0000, Norman Wells wrote...
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by J Newman
Given that current IP law requires the inventors to be human, who owns
the IP of inventions created by AI?
The millions of people whose copyright the "AI" infringed in order to
produce its output.
Hardly. There is no copyright in information, only in the way it is
particularly expressed.
That idea/expression dichotomy rather depends on the individual
circumstances of each case.
The test is whether, in any particular case, the AI has reproduced a
'substantial part' of one or more original copyright works. As opposed
to just taking the underlying ideas.
I agree that there is unlikely to be infringement of "millions" of
copyright works, but there might be of some, depending how sophisticated
the AI is.
The "AI" isn't capable of dealing with ideas. It just mixes together
the works it has unlawfully copied and produces something derivative.
Merely being derivative isn't the test.

Earlier in the thread, someone linked a Kipling poem. Ignore for the
sake of argument the fact that Kipling's copyright has expired.

If I were to summarise that poem in my own words, it would be
derivative. But since it would be my words, not Kipling's, it wouldn't
infringe his copyright.

On the other hand, if I were to write a short story which quoted a
substantial part of Kipling's poem, that would infringe his copyright
(unless one of the Copyright Act exceptions applied). Typically in such
circumstances, my publisher would seek permission.
--
Tim Jackson
***@timjackson.invalid
(Change '.invalid' to '.plus.com' to reply direct)
Jon Ribbens
2024-12-31 17:09:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Jackson
On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 03:14:44 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens wrote...
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Tim Jackson
On Mon, 30 Dec 2024 13:48:50 +0000, Norman Wells wrote...
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by J Newman
Given that current IP law requires the inventors to be human,
who owns the IP of inventions created by AI?
The millions of people whose copyright the "AI" infringed in order to
produce its output.
Hardly. There is no copyright in information, only in the way it is
particularly expressed.
That idea/expression dichotomy rather depends on the individual
circumstances of each case.
The test is whether, in any particular case, the AI has reproduced a
'substantial part' of one or more original copyright works. As opposed
to just taking the underlying ideas.
I agree that there is unlikely to be infringement of "millions" of
copyright works, but there might be of some, depending how sophisticated
the AI is.
The "AI" isn't capable of dealing with ideas. It just mixes together
the works it has unlawfully copied and produces something derivative.
Merely being derivative isn't the test.
Earlier in the thread, someone linked a Kipling poem. Ignore for the
sake of argument the fact that Kipling's copyright has expired.
If I were to summarise that poem in my own words, it would be
derivative. But since it would be my words, not Kipling's, it wouldn't
infringe his copyright.
I don't think that's right. For example, there have been plenty of
Sherlock Holmes TV programmes and such, because the early Sherlock
Holmes stories were out of copyright, but until recently none of them
tended to mention him keeping bees, because that idea was introduced in
the last story, which was not out of copyright. Even though none of the
programmes wanted to literally copy the words from the story, they
couldn't copy the ideas either.
Post by Tim Jackson
On the other hand, if I were to write a short story which quoted a
substantial part of Kipling's poem, that would infringe his copyright
(unless one of the Copyright Act exceptions applied). Typically in such
circumstances, my publisher would seek permission.
"AI" does *nothing but* quote other peoples' works, mixed together.
Tim Jackson
2024-12-31 23:36:16 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 17:09:01 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens wrote...
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Tim Jackson
On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 03:14:44 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens wrote...
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Tim Jackson
On Mon, 30 Dec 2024 13:48:50 +0000, Norman Wells wrote...
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by J Newman
Given that current IP law requires the inventors to be human,
who owns the IP of inventions created by AI?
The millions of people whose copyright the "AI" infringed in order to
produce its output.
Hardly. There is no copyright in information, only in the way it is
particularly expressed.
That idea/expression dichotomy rather depends on the individual
circumstances of each case.
The test is whether, in any particular case, the AI has reproduced a
'substantial part' of one or more original copyright works. As opposed
to just taking the underlying ideas.
I agree that there is unlikely to be infringement of "millions" of
copyright works, but there might be of some, depending how sophisticated
the AI is.
The "AI" isn't capable of dealing with ideas. It just mixes together
the works it has unlawfully copied and produces something derivative.
Merely being derivative isn't the test.
Earlier in the thread, someone linked a Kipling poem. Ignore for the
sake of argument the fact that Kipling's copyright has expired.
If I were to summarise that poem in my own words, it would be
derivative. But since it would be my words, not Kipling's, it wouldn't
infringe his copyright.
I don't think that's right. For example, there have been plenty of
Sherlock Holmes TV programmes and such, because the early Sherlock
Holmes stories were out of copyright, but until recently none of them
tended to mention him keeping bees, because that idea was introduced in
the last story, which was not out of copyright. Even though none of the
programmes wanted to literally copy the words from the story, they
couldn't copy the ideas either.
Do you have a reference to such a case where a beekeeping reference was
the legal problem?

More generally, this was based on the Sonny Bono amendment to US
copyright law, which extended the US copyright protection of some old
works to 95 years from the date of publication. Combined with an
aggressive legal stance by the Conan Doyle estate, which went
unchallenged for a long time.

When eventually challenged in the US courts, it was held that only
"increments of expression" introduced in the later stories had any
protection. Note that the US courts draw a subtle distinction between
an increment of *expression* (which could be protected) and an idea
(which can't).

I'm not sure at what point the US courts would elevate an idea into an
expression. (I'm not sure they really know either, but rather take it on
a case-by-case basis). I do doubt that the English courts would view it
in the same way.
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Tim Jackson
On the other hand, if I were to write a short story which quoted a
substantial part of Kipling's poem, that would infringe his copyright
(unless one of the Copyright Act exceptions applied). Typically in such
circumstances, my publisher would seek permission.
"AI" does *nothing but* quote other peoples' works, mixed together.
For some AI, I'm sure that is true. The suggestion is that it is
getting better as time goes by.
--
Tim Jackson
***@timjackson.invalid
(Change '.invalid' to '.plus.com' to reply direct)
Tim Jackson
2025-01-01 18:40:54 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 23:36:16 -0000, Tim Jackson wrote...

[Sherlock Holmes copyright]
Post by Tim Jackson
More generally, this was based on the Sonny Bono amendment to US
copyright law, which extended the US copyright protection of some old
works to 95 years from the date of publication. Combined with an
aggressive legal stance by the Conan Doyle estate, which went
unchallenged for a long time.
When eventually challenged in the US courts, it was held that only
"increments of expression" introduced in the later stories had any
protection. Note that the US courts draw a subtle distinction between
an increment of *expression* (which could be protected) and an idea
(which can't).
See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinger_v._Conan_Doyle_Estate,_Ltd.

In particular, scroll to "Court of Appeals decision / Validity of
copyright protection"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinger_v._Conan_Doyle_Estate,_Ltd.
#Validity_of_copyright_protection
--
Tim Jackson
***@timjackson.invalid
(Change '.invalid' to '.plus.com' to reply direct)
Jethro_uk
2024-12-31 17:09:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Jackson
On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 03:14:44 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens wrote...
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Tim Jackson
On Mon, 30 Dec 2024 13:48:50 +0000, Norman Wells wrote...
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by J Newman
Given that current IP law requires the inventors to be human, who
owns the IP of inventions created by AI?
The millions of people whose copyright the "AI" infringed in order
to produce its output.
Hardly. There is no copyright in information, only in the way it is
particularly expressed.
That idea/expression dichotomy rather depends on the individual
circumstances of each case.
The test is whether, in any particular case, the AI has reproduced a
'substantial part' of one or more original copyright works. As
opposed to just taking the underlying ideas.
I agree that there is unlikely to be infringement of "millions" of
copyright works, but there might be of some, depending how
sophisticated the AI is.
The "AI" isn't capable of dealing with ideas. It just mixes together
the works it has unlawfully copied and produces something derivative.
Merely being derivative isn't the test.
Earlier in the thread, someone linked a Kipling poem. Ignore for the
sake of argument the fact that Kipling's copyright has expired.
If I were to summarise that poem in my own words, it would be
derivative. But since it would be my words, not Kipling's, it wouldn't
infringe his copyright.
On the other hand, if I were to write a short story which quoted a
substantial part of Kipling's poem, that would infringe his copyright
(unless one of the Copyright Act exceptions applied). Typically in such
circumstances, my publisher would seek permission.
The thing is you can "understand" Kiplings poem. No "AI" engine currently
could do that. Although a few could give a damn good impersonation of
someone understanding it.

And here were start on the sightly shifty sands of philosophy rather than
technology. Which is more suited to the legal aspects.
Martin Harran
2025-01-02 09:06:14 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 17:09:35 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Tim Jackson
On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 03:14:44 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens wrote...
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Tim Jackson
On Mon, 30 Dec 2024 13:48:50 +0000, Norman Wells wrote...
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by J Newman
Given that current IP law requires the inventors to be human, who
owns the IP of inventions created by AI?
The millions of people whose copyright the "AI" infringed in order
to produce its output.
Hardly. There is no copyright in information, only in the way it is
particularly expressed.
That idea/expression dichotomy rather depends on the individual
circumstances of each case.
The test is whether, in any particular case, the AI has reproduced a
'substantial part' of one or more original copyright works. As
opposed to just taking the underlying ideas.
I agree that there is unlikely to be infringement of "millions" of
copyright works, but there might be of some, depending how
sophisticated the AI is.
The "AI" isn't capable of dealing with ideas. It just mixes together
the works it has unlawfully copied and produces something derivative.
Merely being derivative isn't the test.
Earlier in the thread, someone linked a Kipling poem. Ignore for the
sake of argument the fact that Kipling's copyright has expired.
If I were to summarise that poem in my own words, it would be
derivative. But since it would be my words, not Kipling's, it wouldn't
infringe his copyright.
On the other hand, if I were to write a short story which quoted a
substantial part of Kipling's poem, that would infringe his copyright
(unless one of the Copyright Act exceptions applied). Typically in such
circumstances, my publisher would seek permission.
The thing is you can "understand" Kiplings poem. No "AI" engine currently
could do that. Although a few could give a damn good impersonation of
someone understanding it.
I'd say there are quite a few humans who would have trouble
understanding it - does that mean they are not intelligent?
.
Post by Jethro_uk
And here were start on the sightly shifty sands of philosophy rather than
technology. Which is more suited to the legal aspects.
Jethro_uk
2025-01-02 11:31:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Harran
On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 17:09:35 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
[quoted text muted]
I'd say there are quite a few humans who would have trouble
understanding it - does that mean they are not intelligent?
You define intelligence, and I will arbitrate :)

We are told that dogs (for example) are intelligent. Yet they invariably
score zero on an IQ test. Which suggests that either (a) dogs are not
intelligent; or (b) that IQ tests do not in fact measure intelligence but
some other nebulous quality as a proxy for intelligence are are therefore
(a:2) useless; or (b:2) a waste of money.
Roger Hayter
2025-01-02 12:55:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Martin Harran
On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 17:09:35 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
[quoted text muted]
I'd say there are quite a few humans who would have trouble
understanding it - does that mean they are not intelligent?
You define intelligence, and I will arbitrate :)
We are told that dogs (for example) are intelligent. Yet they invariably
score zero on an IQ test. Which suggests that either (a) dogs are not
intelligent; or (b) that IQ tests do not in fact measure intelligence but
some other nebulous quality as a proxy for intelligence are are therefore
(a:2) useless; or (b:2) a waste of money.
There is the famous Turing test.
--
Roger Hayter
Max Demian
2025-01-02 13:23:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Martin Harran
On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 17:09:35 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
[quoted text muted]
I'd say there are quite a few humans who would have trouble
understanding it - does that mean they are not intelligent?
You define intelligence, and I will arbitrate :)
We are told that dogs (for example) are intelligent. Yet they invariably
score zero on an IQ test. Which suggests that either (a) dogs are not
intelligent; or (b) that IQ tests do not in fact measure intelligence but
some other nebulous quality as a proxy for intelligence are are therefore
(a:2) useless; or (b:2) a waste of money.
Human IQ tests assume the ability to understand written instructions and
hold a pencil. I don't know how doggy intelligence is measured.
--
Max Demian
Jethro_uk
2025-01-02 14:59:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Max Demian
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Martin Harran
On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 17:09:35 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
[quoted text muted]
I'd say there are quite a few humans who would have trouble
understanding it - does that mean they are not intelligent?
You define intelligence, and I will arbitrate :)
We are told that dogs (for example) are intelligent. Yet they
invariably score zero on an IQ test. Which suggests that either (a)
dogs are not intelligent; or (b) that IQ tests do not in fact measure
intelligence but some other nebulous quality as a proxy for
intelligence are are therefore (a:2) useless; or (b:2) a waste of
money.
Human IQ tests assume the ability to understand written instructions
Which in itself presupposes a minimum level of "intelligence" before you
start. In any other setting that would be a rigged game ...
billy bookcase
2025-01-02 13:23:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Martin Harran
On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 17:09:35 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
[quoted text muted]
I'd say there are quite a few humans who would have trouble
understanding it - does that mean they are not intelligent?
You define intelligence, and I will arbitrate :)
We are told that dogs (for example) are intelligent. Yet they invariably
score zero on an IQ test. Which suggests that either (a) dogs are not
intelligent; or (b) that IQ tests do not in fact measure intelligence but
some other nebulous quality as a proxy for intelligence are are therefore
(a:2) useless; or (b:2) a waste of money.
IQ tests prove humans are more intelligent than dogs.

TEST TWO

Who designed and marks all IQ tests ?

a) Humans b) Dogs


bb
Martin Harran
2025-01-02 14:30:04 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 2 Jan 2025 11:31:41 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Martin Harran
On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 17:09:35 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
[quoted text muted]
I'd say there are quite a few humans who would have trouble
understanding it - does that mean they are not intelligent?
You define intelligence, and I will arbitrate :)
You seemed to be assessing it on the basis of being able to understand
a poem so what definition did you have in mind for that understanding?
Post by Jethro_uk
We are told that dogs (for example) are intelligent. Yet they invariably
score zero on an IQ test. Which suggests that either (a) dogs are not
intelligent; or (b) that IQ tests do not in fact measure intelligence but
some other nebulous quality as a proxy for intelligence are are therefore
(a:2) useless; or (b:2) a waste of money.
Jethro_uk
2025-01-02 15:03:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Harran
On Thu, 2 Jan 2025 11:31:41 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Martin Harran
On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 17:09:35 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
[quoted text muted]
I'd say there are quite a few humans who would have trouble
understanding it - does that mean they are not intelligent?
You define intelligence, and I will arbitrate :)
You seemed to be assessing it on the basis of being able to understand a
poem so what definition did you have in mind for that understanding?
That's *one* strand - possibly.

There is a philosophy espoused by the venerable John Lloyd of
"ignosticism" which could equally be applied to intelligence
Max Demian
2025-01-02 13:26:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Harran
On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 17:09:35 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Tim Jackson
Earlier in the thread, someone linked a Kipling poem. Ignore for the
sake of argument the fact that Kipling's copyright has expired.
If I were to summarise that poem in my own words, it would be
derivative. But since it would be my words, not Kipling's, it wouldn't
infringe his copyright.
On the other hand, if I were to write a short story which quoted a
substantial part of Kipling's poem, that would infringe his copyright
(unless one of the Copyright Act exceptions applied). Typically in such
circumstances, my publisher would seek permission.
The thing is you can "understand" Kiplings poem. No "AI" engine currently
could do that. Although a few could give a damn good impersonation of
someone understanding it.
I'd say there are quite a few humans who would have trouble
understanding it - does that mean they are not intelligent?
It means that they would rather the writer say what they mean rather
than beat about the bush with arty language.

(I do appreciate *some* poetry, but a lot of it is beyond my
comprehension or I can't be bothered to work out what the writer means.)
--
Max Demian
Norman Wells
2024-12-31 18:10:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Jackson
On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 03:14:44 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens wrote...
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Tim Jackson
On Mon, 30 Dec 2024 13:48:50 +0000, Norman Wells wrote...
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by J Newman
Given that current IP law requires the inventors to be human, who owns
the IP of inventions created by AI?
The millions of people whose copyright the "AI" infringed in order to
produce its output.
Hardly. There is no copyright in information, only in the way it is
particularly expressed.
That idea/expression dichotomy rather depends on the individual
circumstances of each case.
The test is whether, in any particular case, the AI has reproduced a
'substantial part' of one or more original copyright works. As opposed
to just taking the underlying ideas.
I agree that there is unlikely to be infringement of "millions" of
copyright works, but there might be of some, depending how sophisticated
the AI is.
The "AI" isn't capable of dealing with ideas. It just mixes together
the works it has unlawfully copied and produces something derivative.
Merely being derivative isn't the test.
Earlier in the thread, someone linked a Kipling poem. Ignore for the
sake of argument the fact that Kipling's copyright has expired.
If I were to summarise that poem in my own words, it would be
derivative. But since it would be my words, not Kipling's, it wouldn't
infringe his copyright.
On the other hand, if I were to write a short story which quoted a
substantial part of Kipling's poem, that would infringe his copyright
(unless one of the Copyright Act exceptions applied). Typically in such
circumstances, my publisher would seek permission.
Although what publishers do, perhaps out of excessive caution, isn't
really much of an indication. An example has been given here of
Sherlock Holmes keeping bees being a no-no for publishers to repeat.
But I doubt very much whether just that, without quoting a considerable
amount of Conan-Doyle's actual words can amount to copyright infringement.

Similarly, there has been an advertisement for goodness knows what
recently that has featured a recognisable portrayal of Albert Einstein
by an actor (with another one of Angela Rippon), with an explanation on
screen that the rights in his likeness have been licensed from his
estate. I doubt if such rights exist at all.
Tim Jackson
2025-01-01 03:04:10 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 18:10:04 +0000, Norman Wells wrote...
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Tim Jackson
Earlier in the thread, someone linked a Kipling poem. Ignore for the
sake of argument the fact that Kipling's copyright has expired.
If I were to summarise that poem in my own words, it would be
derivative. But since it would be my words, not Kipling's, it wouldn't
infringe his copyright.
On the other hand, if I were to write a short story which quoted a
substantial part of Kipling's poem, that would infringe his copyright
(unless one of the Copyright Act exceptions applied). Typically in such
circumstances, my publisher would seek permission.
Although what publishers do, perhaps out of excessive caution, isn't
really much of an indication. An example has been given here of
Sherlock Holmes keeping bees being a no-no for publishers to repeat.
See my comment elsewhere that this seems to be based on practice in USA,
rather than UK.
Post by Norman Wells
But I doubt very much whether just that, without quoting a considerable
amount of Conan-Doyle's actual words can amount to copyright infringement.
What is "considerable"? You may be thinking of the old "skill and
labour" test previously applied by the English courts.

However, nowadays it can be as little as 11 words, depending whether
those words amount to "the author's own intellectual creation".

This comes from the CJEU Infopaq case. That was about a newspaper
clippings service, which reproduced 11-word snippets from newspaper
articles and sent them to its subscribers.

Since Brexit, the higher UK courts have had discretion to depart from
such CJEU case law, e.g. to restore the old 'skill and labour' test.
But to the best of my knowledge, so far they have shown no signs of
doing so. The "author's own intellectual creation" test is well
established in the English courts.
--
Tim Jackson
***@timjackson.invalid
(Change '.invalid' to '.plus.com' to reply direct)
Norman Wells
2025-01-01 09:27:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Jackson
On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 18:10:04 +0000, Norman Wells wrote...
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Tim Jackson
Earlier in the thread, someone linked a Kipling poem. Ignore for the
sake of argument the fact that Kipling's copyright has expired.
If I were to summarise that poem in my own words, it would be
derivative. But since it would be my words, not Kipling's, it wouldn't
infringe his copyright.
On the other hand, if I were to write a short story which quoted a
substantial part of Kipling's poem, that would infringe his copyright
(unless one of the Copyright Act exceptions applied). Typically in such
circumstances, my publisher would seek permission.
Although what publishers do, perhaps out of excessive caution, isn't
really much of an indication. An example has been given here of
Sherlock Holmes keeping bees being a no-no for publishers to repeat.
See my comment elsewhere that this seems to be based on practice in USA,
rather than UK.
Post by Norman Wells
But I doubt very much whether just that, without quoting a considerable
amount of Conan-Doyle's actual words can amount to copyright infringement.
What is "considerable"? You may be thinking of the old "skill and
labour" test previously applied by the English courts.
However, nowadays it can be as little as 11 words, depending whether
those words amount to "the author's own intellectual creation".
This comes from the CJEU Infopaq case. That was about a newspaper
clippings service, which reproduced 11-word snippets from newspaper
articles and sent them to its subscribers.
Since Brexit, the higher UK courts have had discretion to depart from
such CJEU case law, e.g. to restore the old 'skill and labour' test.
But to the best of my knowledge, so far they have shown no signs of
doing so. The "author's own intellectual creation" test is well
established in the English courts.
I've said before that UK copyright law, maybe even global copyright law,
is completely unfit for purpose, having failed to keep up with ease of
reproduction and distribution worldwide of anything it was intended to
protect. It's stuck in Victorian (or even earlier) times being intended
to last for two generations after the death of the work's originator,
presumably through poverty in some cold and lonely garret. It's
indeterminate, it's often impossible to find who the author is, or when
he died, or even how many separate copyrights exist in a single work,
requiring distinct investigations of all those. It requires thorough
root and branch reform.

And now judges are determined, it seems, to perform absurd contortions
to bring things within the scope of the law that were never intended to
be there. That is anathema to anyone who has practised in any area of
the law in the UK who has been brought up to believe that the law means
what it says, and isn't up for grabs.

As an example of that, I give you the finding that 'Del Boy is a
protected literary work', meaning the character, not a book. If that
doesn't make you wince, I don't know what will.

Shazam Productions Ltd v Only Fools The Dining Experience Ltd and others
[2022] EWHC 1379 (IPEC)

as reported in

https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/w-036-0489?transitionType=Default&contextData=(sc.Default)&firstPage=true
Tim Jackson
2025-01-01 15:44:19 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 1 Jan 2025 09:27:17 +0000, Norman Wells wrote...
Post by Norman Wells
As an example of that, I give you the finding that 'Del Boy is a
protected literary work', meaning the character, not a book. If that
doesn't make you wince, I don't know what will.
A useful link, thank you. Whether the outcome is good or bad would be a
matter of opinion.

I note that it raises similar questions to the US Sherlock case I cited
previously, as to the dividing line between ideas (not protected) and
the expression of those ideas (protected). Expression is not limited
just to the words used. But "the features of Del Boy relied on by
Shazam as constituting his character were precisely and objectively
discernable in the OFAH scripts."
--
Tim Jackson
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Norman Wells
2025-01-01 17:29:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Jackson
On Wed, 1 Jan 2025 09:27:17 +0000, Norman Wells wrote...
Post by Norman Wells
As an example of that, I give you the finding that 'Del Boy is a
protected literary work', meaning the character, not a book. If that
doesn't make you wince, I don't know what will.
A useful link, thank you. Whether the outcome is good or bad would be a
matter of opinion.
I note that it raises similar questions to the US Sherlock case I cited
previously, as to the dividing line between ideas (not protected) and
the expression of those ideas (protected). Expression is not limited
just to the words used. But "the features of Del Boy relied on by
Shazam as constituting his character were precisely and objectively
discernable in the OFAH scripts."
... not a word of which was actually copied.

Whatever you think about the desirability of image or character
protection, it's absurd to say Del Boy is a literary work.

If image needs to be protected, it really should be sui generis.

Copyright is inapplicable on any reasonable interpretation. It's broken.
Simon Parker
2025-01-03 18:52:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Jackson
On Wed, 1 Jan 2025 09:27:17 +0000, Norman Wells wrote...
Post by Norman Wells
As an example of that, I give you the finding that 'Del Boy is a
protected literary work', meaning the character, not a book. If that
doesn't make you wince, I don't know what will.
A useful link, thank you. Whether the outcome is good or bad would be a
matter of opinion.
I note that it raises similar questions to the US Sherlock case I cited
previously, as to the dividing line between ideas (not protected) and
the expression of those ideas (protected). Expression is not limited
just to the words used. But "the features of Del Boy relied on by
Shazam as constituting his character were precisely and objectively
discernable in the OFAH scripts."
As is often the case, I recommend reading the full judgment, rather than
a single page summary of it as some of the nuances may be missed in the
summary. For example, the case covered claims both for copyright
infringement and passing off (both of which succeeded). However, not
all claims in both headings were successful (for example "The character
'Del Boy' IS NOT considered a dramatic work for the purposes of
copyright law"), as the helpful table at para [210] of the judgment
summarises everything quite nicely (with links back to the relevant
section for the rationale for arriving at said conclusions).

Of additional note to you may be that the judgment also references
Sherlock Holmes ("Klinger") mentioned elsewhere in the thread and the
parallels to this case.

The full judgment can be read here:

https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/IPEC/2022/1379.html

Regards

S.P.
Norman Wells
2025-01-03 23:11:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Parker
Post by Tim Jackson
On Wed, 1 Jan 2025 09:27:17 +0000, Norman Wells wrote...
Post by Norman Wells
As an example of that, I give you the finding that 'Del Boy is a
protected literary work', meaning the character, not a book.  If that
doesn't make you wince, I don't know what will.
A useful link, thank you.  Whether the outcome is good or bad would be a
matter of opinion.
I note that it raises similar questions to the US Sherlock case I cited
previously, as to the dividing line between ideas (not protected) and
the expression of those ideas (protected).  Expression is not limited
just to the words used.  But "the features of Del Boy relied on by
Shazam as constituting his character were precisely and objectively
discernable in the OFAH scripts."
As is often the case, I recommend reading the full judgment, rather than
a single page summary of it as some of the nuances may be missed in the
summary.  For example, the case covered claims both for copyright
infringement and passing off (both of which succeeded).  However, not
all claims in both headings were successful (for example "The character
'Del Boy' IS NOT considered a dramatic work for the purposes of
copyright law"), as the helpful table at para [210] of the judgment
summarises everything quite nicely (with links back to the relevant
section for the rationale for arriving at said conclusions).
So what? From that paragraph:

"1.2 Is the character of "Del Boy" a literary work for the purposes of
copyright law?

Yes"

To anyone who speaks and understands English and isn't into extreme
verbal contortionism, I say no it isn't.
Post by Simon Parker
https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/IPEC/2022/1379.html
Jethro_uk
2024-12-30 14:00:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by J Newman
Given that current IP law requires the inventors to be human, who owns
the IP of inventions created by AI?
The millions of people whose copyright the "AI" infringed in order to
produce its output.
I am sure that some content creators are utilizing the mapmakers trick of
sneaking absolute garbage into their content and then waiting to see what
"AI" engine repeats it as gospel.

It's what I would do.
Martin Harran
2025-01-02 09:04:58 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 30 Dec 2024 12:21:11 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by J Newman
Given that current IP law requires the inventors to be human, who owns
the IP of inventions created by AI?
The millions of people whose copyright the "AI" infringed in order to
produce its output.
"If you steal from one author, it's plagiarism; if you steal from
many, it's research."

(Author unknown)
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