Discussion:
£900 fines for wearing a burqa will be introduced...
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Ottavio Caruso
2024-11-07 15:43:56 UTC
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... in Switzerland:
https://apnews.com/article/switzerland-burqa-niqab-face-covering-ban-fine-4a4392a28498618ca0c59e290fe10a36

We know this will never happen in UK, but would such ban in UK be likely
to be blocked by the Supreme Court and/or a European court?
--
Ottavio Caruso
Jethro_uk
2024-11-07 18:16:04 UTC
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Post by Ottavio Caruso
https://apnews.com/article/switzerland-burqa-niqab-face-covering-ban-
fine-4a4392a28498618ca0c59e290fe10a36
Post by Ottavio Caruso
We know this will never happen in UK, but would such ban in UK be likely
to be blocked by the Supreme Court and/or a European court?
How does a burqa differ from (for example) a ski mask ?

Round our way, there is a subset of youths who go around with scarves
covering their mouths and noses and baseball caps obscuring the head down
to the eyes.
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-07 18:25:26 UTC
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Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by Ottavio Caruso
https://apnews.com/article/switzerland-burqa-niqab-face-covering-ban-
fine-4a4392a28498618ca0c59e290fe10a36
Post by Ottavio Caruso
We know this will never happen in UK, but would such ban in UK be likely
to be blocked by the Supreme Court and/or a European court?
How does a burqa differ from (for example) a ski mask ?
As far as the Swiss law is concerned, it doesn't - ski masks are banned
too. Presumably there are exceptions though for wearing ski masks while,
er, skiing.
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-07 18:22:58 UTC
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Post by Ottavio Caruso
https://apnews.com/article/switzerland-burqa-niqab-face-covering-ban-fine-4a4392a28498618ca0c59e290fe10a36
We know this will never happen in UK, but would such ban in UK be likely
to be blocked by the Supreme Court and/or a European court?
If Parliament passed such a law, then it could not be blocked by any
court anywhere, since, as you know, Parliament is supreme.

The UK Supreme Court could issue a declaration of incompatibility with
the Human Rights Act, and the European Court of Human Rights could
likewise declare the law incompatible with the European Convention on
Human Rights, but neither of those things would cause the law to no
longer apply.

And in fact neither of the above things will happen in relation to
the Swiss law, or any hypothetical future UK law, because the European
Court of Human Rights has already considered the issue with respect to
the similar French law that was passed in 2010, and it found that the
law did not violate human rights:
https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng?i=002-9952

In my view the case was clearly wrongly decided and simply represents
cowardice and/or racism on the part of the Justices. The bit where they
suggest that it's ok because the punishment is small is just straight-up
nonsense. But of course my opinion is irrelevant, the fact is that the
ECHR does not prevent European states passing such oppressive laws.
Roger Hayter
2024-11-07 19:41:53 UTC
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Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Ottavio Caruso
https://apnews.com/article/switzerland-burqa-niqab-face-covering-ban-fine-4a4392a28498618ca0c59e290fe10a36
We know this will never happen in UK, but would such ban in UK be likely
to be blocked by the Supreme Court and/or a European court?
If Parliament passed such a law, then it could not be blocked by any
court anywhere, since, as you know, Parliament is supreme.
The UK Supreme Court could issue a declaration of incompatibility with
the Human Rights Act, and the European Court of Human Rights could
likewise declare the law incompatible with the European Convention on
Human Rights, but neither of those things would cause the law to no
longer apply.
And in fact neither of the above things will happen in relation to
the Swiss law, or any hypothetical future UK law, because the European
Court of Human Rights has already considered the issue with respect to
the similar French law that was passed in 2010, and it found that the
https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng?i=002-9952
In my view the case was clearly wrongly decided and simply represents
cowardice and/or racism on the part of the Justices. The bit where they
suggest that it's ok because the punishment is small is just straight-up
nonsense. But of course my opinion is irrelevant, the fact is that the
ECHR does not prevent European states passing such oppressive laws.
Is the Supreme Court bound by the ECHR decision? Could the UK Supreme Court
find against the government, forcing it to appeal to the European court? I
must admit I would find that deeply ironic.
--
Roger Hayter
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-07 20:12:43 UTC
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Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Ottavio Caruso
https://apnews.com/article/switzerland-burqa-niqab-face-covering-ban-fine-4a4392a28498618ca0c59e290fe10a36
We know this will never happen in UK, but would such ban in UK be likely
to be blocked by the Supreme Court and/or a European court?
If Parliament passed such a law, then it could not be blocked by any
court anywhere, since, as you know, Parliament is supreme.
The UK Supreme Court could issue a declaration of incompatibility with
the Human Rights Act, and the European Court of Human Rights could
likewise declare the law incompatible with the European Convention on
Human Rights, but neither of those things would cause the law to no
longer apply.
And in fact neither of the above things will happen in relation to
the Swiss law, or any hypothetical future UK law, because the European
Court of Human Rights has already considered the issue with respect to
the similar French law that was passed in 2010, and it found that the
https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng?i=002-9952
In my view the case was clearly wrongly decided and simply represents
cowardice and/or racism on the part of the Justices. The bit where they
suggest that it's ok because the punishment is small is just straight-up
nonsense. But of course my opinion is irrelevant, the fact is that the
ECHR does not prevent European states passing such oppressive laws.
Is the Supreme Court bound by the ECHR decision? Could the UK Supreme Court
find against the government, forcing it to appeal to the European court? I
must admit I would find that deeply ironic.
The Human Rights Act s2(1) says that UK courts must "take into account"
decisions of the European Court of Human Rights. So I guess they could
theoretically come to a different decision, but it seems highly unlikely.
And I doubt the government could appeal if they did, because there is of
course nothing in the ECHR to prevent individual states from protecting
human rights *more* strongly than required.
Andy Burns
2024-11-07 18:24:49 UTC
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Post by Ottavio Caruso
https://apnews.com/article/switzerland-burqa-niqab-face-covering-ban-
fine-4a4392a28498618ca0c59e290fe10a36
Have and fines been issued in the intervening 14 months?

Apparently not, it comes into effect from January

<https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swiss-burqa-ban-take-effect-2025-2024-11-06/>
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-07 18:29:20 UTC
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Post by Andy Burns
Post by Ottavio Caruso
https://apnews.com/article/switzerland-burqa-niqab-face-covering-ban-
fine-4a4392a28498618ca0c59e290fe10a36
Have and fines been issued in the intervening 14 months?
Apparently not, it comes into effect from January
<https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swiss-burqa-ban-take-effect-2025-2024-11-06/>
"Facial coverings will remain permitted for reasons relating
to ... native customs"

It's just blatant unabashed racism.
Les. Hayward
2024-11-07 19:36:48 UTC
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Post by Andy Burns
Post by Ottavio Caruso
https://apnews.com/article/switzerland-burqa-niqab-face-covering-ban-
fine-4a4392a28498618ca0c59e290fe10a36
Have and fines been issued in the intervening 14 months?
Apparently not, it comes into effect from January
<https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swiss-burqa-ban-take-effect-2025-2024-11-06/>
Good for the Swiss. I very much doubt that many women, religious or not,
really desire to go out in a black tent.
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-07 20:13:23 UTC
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Post by Les. Hayward
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Ottavio Caruso
https://apnews.com/article/switzerland-burqa-niqab-face-covering-ban-
fine-4a4392a28498618ca0c59e290fe10a36
Have and fines been issued in the intervening 14 months?
Apparently not, it comes into effect from January
<https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swiss-burqa-ban-take-effect-2025-2024-11-06/>
Good for the Swiss. I very much doubt that many women, religious or not,
really desire to go out in a black tent.
Oh, well, if you can't imagine it then I guess it's impossible.
Roger Hayter
2024-11-07 20:15:38 UTC
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Post by Les. Hayward
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Ottavio Caruso
https://apnews.com/article/switzerland-burqa-niqab-face-covering-ban-
fine-4a4392a28498618ca0c59e290fe10a36
Have and fines been issued in the intervening 14 months?
Apparently not, it comes into effect from January
<https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swiss-burqa-ban-take-effect-2025-2024-11-06/>
Good for the Swiss. I very much doubt that many women, religious or not,
really desire to go out in a black tent.
So this is all a generous liberal measure to save the unfortunate women from
the oppressive culture and religion they come from? Do they get free
skin-whitening cream too?
--
Roger Hayter
Les. Hayward
2024-11-07 22:44:20 UTC
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Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Les. Hayward
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Ottavio Caruso
https://apnews.com/article/switzerland-burqa-niqab-face-covering-ban-
fine-4a4392a28498618ca0c59e290fe10a36
Have and fines been issued in the intervening 14 months?
Apparently not, it comes into effect from January
<https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swiss-burqa-ban-take-effect-2025-2024-11-06/>
Good for the Swiss. I very much doubt that many women, religious or not,
really desire to go out in a black tent.
So this is all a generous liberal measure to save the unfortunate women from
the oppressive culture and religion they come from? Do they get free
skin-whitening cream too?
Ah, perhaps you would prefer the Iranian version, where women get beaten
with sticks, tortured and imprisoned not NOT wearing the aforesaid kit?
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-08 08:39:40 UTC
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Post by Les. Hayward
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Les. Hayward
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Ottavio Caruso
https://apnews.com/article/switzerland-burqa-niqab-face-covering-ban-
fine-4a4392a28498618ca0c59e290fe10a36
Have and fines been issued in the intervening 14 months?
Apparently not, it comes into effect from January
<https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swiss-burqa-ban-take-effect-2025-2024-11-06/>
Good for the Swiss. I very much doubt that many women, religious or not,
really desire to go out in a black tent.
So this is all a generous liberal measure to save the unfortunate
women from the oppressive culture and religion they come from? Do
they get free skin-whitening cream too?
Ah, perhaps you would prefer the Iranian version, where women get beaten
with sticks, tortured and imprisoned not NOT wearing the aforesaid kit?
Ah, a subscriber to the time-honoured "two wrongs make a right" principle!
Les. Hayward
2024-11-08 08:59:05 UTC
Reply
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Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Les. Hayward
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Les. Hayward
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Ottavio Caruso
https://apnews.com/article/switzerland-burqa-niqab-face-covering-ban-
fine-4a4392a28498618ca0c59e290fe10a36
Have and fines been issued in the intervening 14 months?
Apparently not, it comes into effect from January
<https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swiss-burqa-ban-take-effect-2025-2024-11-06/>
Good for the Swiss. I very much doubt that many women, religious or not,
really desire to go out in a black tent.
So this is all a generous liberal measure to save the unfortunate
women from the oppressive culture and religion they come from? Do
they get free skin-whitening cream too?
Ah, perhaps you would prefer the Iranian version, where women get beaten
with sticks, tortured and imprisoned not NOT wearing the aforesaid kit?
Ah, a subscriber to the time-honoured "two wrongs make a right" principle!
No, the single principals of protecting women's rights while trying to
reduce pointless religious dogma.
Roger Hayter
2024-11-08 17:12:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Les. Hayward
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Les. Hayward
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Les. Hayward
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Ottavio Caruso
https://apnews.com/article/switzerland-burqa-niqab-face-covering-ban-
fine-4a4392a28498618ca0c59e290fe10a36
Have and fines been issued in the intervening 14 months?
Apparently not, it comes into effect from January
<https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swiss-burqa-ban-take-effect-2025-2024-11-06/>
Good for the Swiss. I very much doubt that many women, religious or not,
really desire to go out in a black tent.
So this is all a generous liberal measure to save the unfortunate
women from the oppressive culture and religion they come from? Do
they get free skin-whitening cream too?
Ah, perhaps you would prefer the Iranian version, where women get beaten
with sticks, tortured and imprisoned not NOT wearing the aforesaid kit?
Ah, a subscriber to the time-honoured "two wrongs make a right" principle!
No, the single principals of protecting women's rights while trying to
reduce pointless religious dogma.
She already has a right not to wear a veil. All that is being done is taking
away her right to do so.
--
Roger Hayter
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-08 17:54:47 UTC
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Post by Les. Hayward
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Les. Hayward
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Les. Hayward
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Ottavio Caruso
https://apnews.com/article/switzerland-burqa-niqab-face-covering-ban-
fine-4a4392a28498618ca0c59e290fe10a36
Have and fines been issued in the intervening 14 months?
Apparently not, it comes into effect from January
<https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swiss-burqa-ban-take-effect-2025-2024-11-06/>
Good for the Swiss. I very much doubt that many women, religious or not,
really desire to go out in a black tent.
So this is all a generous liberal measure to save the unfortunate
women from the oppressive culture and religion they come from? Do
they get free skin-whitening cream too?
Ah, perhaps you would prefer the Iranian version, where women get beaten
with sticks, tortured and imprisoned not NOT wearing the aforesaid kit?
Ah, a subscriber to the time-honoured "two wrongs make a right" principle!
No, the single principals of protecting women's rights while trying to
reduce pointless religious dogma.
The principle of "women's rights", which you feel are best defended
by making it illegal for women to choose what clothes they wear?

Perhaps you would prefer the Iranian version of the same principle.
kat
2024-11-09 15:07:46 UTC
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Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Les. Hayward
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Les. Hayward
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Les. Hayward
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Ottavio Caruso
https://apnews.com/article/switzerland-burqa-niqab-face-covering-ban-
fine-4a4392a28498618ca0c59e290fe10a36
Have and fines been issued in the intervening 14 months?
Apparently not, it comes into effect from January
<https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swiss-burqa-ban-take-effect-2025-2024-11-06/>
Good for the Swiss. I very much doubt that many women, religious or not,
really desire to go out in a black tent.
So this is all a generous liberal measure to save the unfortunate
women from the oppressive culture and religion they come from? Do
they get free skin-whitening cream too?
Ah, perhaps you would prefer the Iranian version, where women get beaten
with sticks, tortured and imprisoned not NOT wearing the aforesaid kit?
Ah, a subscriber to the time-honoured "two wrongs make a right" principle!
No, the single principals of protecting women's rights while trying to
reduce pointless religious dogma.
The principle of "women's rights", which you feel are best defended
by making it illegal for women to choose what clothes they wear?
Perhaps you would prefer the Iranian version of the same principle.
While I have seen women strongly in favour of wearing a headscarf I have yet to
see any demanding the right to wear anything as constricting as a burqa.

No doubt you wil tell me it is because they agree with the restriction on speaking.
--
kat
Post by Jon Ribbens
^..^<
Les. Hayward
2024-11-09 20:19:44 UTC
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Post by kat
While I have seen women strongly in favour of wearing a headscarf I have
yet to see any demanding the right to wear anything as constricting as a
burqa.
No doubt you wil tell me it is because they agree with the restriction on speaking.
Now that one DID make me laugh!
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-10 00:14:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by kat
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Les. Hayward
No, the single principals of protecting women's rights while trying to
reduce pointless religious dogma.
The principle of "women's rights", which you feel are best defended
by making it illegal for women to choose what clothes they wear?
Perhaps you would prefer the Iranian version of the same principle.
While I have seen women strongly in favour of wearing a headscarf I
have yet to see any demanding the right to wear anything as
constricting as a burqa.
No doubt you wil tell me it is because they agree with the restriction on speaking.
It is probably best that you not try to speculate as to what I would or
would not tell you, because you clearly do not have an aptitude for it.
JNugent
2024-11-10 00:22:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by kat
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Les. Hayward
No, the single principals of protecting women's rights while trying to
reduce pointless religious dogma.
The principle of "women's rights", which you feel are best defended
by making it illegal for women to choose what clothes they wear?
Perhaps you would prefer the Iranian version of the same principle.
While I have seen women strongly in favour of wearing a headscarf I
have yet to see any demanding the right to wear anything as
constricting as a burqa.
No doubt you wil tell me it is because they agree with the restriction on speaking.
It is probably best that you not try to speculate as to what I would or
would not tell you, because you clearly do not have an aptitude for it.
It might then be better if you confirmed, or, as the case might be,
deny, what was suggested?

Then no-one would need to be in doubt.
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Roger Hayter
2024-11-10 00:18:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by kat
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Les. Hayward
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Les. Hayward
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Les. Hayward
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Ottavio Caruso
https://apnews.com/article/switzerland-burqa-niqab-face-covering-ban-
fine-4a4392a28498618ca0c59e290fe10a36
Have and fines been issued in the intervening 14 months?
Apparently not, it comes into effect from January
<https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swiss-burqa-ban-take-effect-2025-2024-11-06/>
Good for the Swiss. I very much doubt that many women, religious or not,
really desire to go out in a black tent.
So this is all a generous liberal measure to save the unfortunate
women from the oppressive culture and religion they come from? Do
they get free skin-whitening cream too?
Ah, perhaps you would prefer the Iranian version, where women get beaten
with sticks, tortured and imprisoned not NOT wearing the aforesaid kit?
Ah, a subscriber to the time-honoured "two wrongs make a right" principle!
No, the single principals of protecting women's rights while trying to
reduce pointless religious dogma.
The principle of "women's rights", which you feel are best defended
by making it illegal for women to choose what clothes they wear?
Perhaps you would prefer the Iranian version of the same principle.
While I have seen women strongly in favour of wearing a headscarf I have yet to
see any demanding the right to wear anything as constricting as a burqa.
Since a burqa is a long, loose fitting garment I can't see how you can regard
it as constricting.
Post by kat
No doubt you wil tell me it is because they agree with the restriction on speaking.
--
Roger Hayter
Spike
2024-11-10 12:27:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[…]
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by kat
While I have seen women strongly in favour of wearing a headscarf I have yet to
see any demanding the right to wear anything as constricting as a burqa.
Since a burqa is a long, loose fitting garment I can't see how you can regard
it as constricting.
Have you tried wearing one?

AFAICS the only times that men wear a burka is when they are attempting to
evade the forces of law and order, and whether the garment is constricting
or otherwise is irrelevant for that purpose.
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by kat
No doubt you wil tell me it is because they agree with the restriction on speaking.
<vbg>
--
Spike
kat
2024-11-10 14:14:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by kat
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Les. Hayward
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Les. Hayward
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Les. Hayward
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Ottavio Caruso
https://apnews.com/article/switzerland-burqa-niqab-face-covering-ban-
fine-4a4392a28498618ca0c59e290fe10a36
Have and fines been issued in the intervening 14 months?
Apparently not, it comes into effect from January
<https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swiss-burqa-ban-take-effect-2025-2024-11-06/>
Good for the Swiss. I very much doubt that many women, religious or not,
really desire to go out in a black tent.
So this is all a generous liberal measure to save the unfortunate
women from the oppressive culture and religion they come from? Do
they get free skin-whitening cream too?
Ah, perhaps you would prefer the Iranian version, where women get beaten
with sticks, tortured and imprisoned not NOT wearing the aforesaid kit?
Ah, a subscriber to the time-honoured "two wrongs make a right" principle!
No, the single principals of protecting women's rights while trying to
reduce pointless religious dogma.
The principle of "women's rights", which you feel are best defended
by making it illegal for women to choose what clothes they wear?
Perhaps you would prefer the Iranian version of the same principle.
While I have seen women strongly in favour of wearing a headscarf I have yet to
see any demanding the right to wear anything as constricting as a burqa.
Since a burqa is a long, loose fitting garment I can't see how you can regard
it as constricting.
Now that makes me laugh.
--
kat
Post by Roger Hayter
^..^<
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