Discussion:
Discovering claimant in MCOL case
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TTman
2024-11-11 22:25:31 UTC
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Is it possible? the claim no is 424MC327 and I know the name of the
defendant ( the same as in my previous cases mentioned here) . He has an
unpaid CCJ against him.
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Jon Ribbens
2024-11-11 22:34:34 UTC
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Post by TTman
Is it possible? the claim no is 424MC327 and I know the name of the
defendant ( the same as in my previous cases mentioned here) . He has an
unpaid CCJ against him.
If you know the court you could try ringing and asking them.
I wouldn't be surprised if they told you.
TTman
2024-11-11 23:48:12 UTC
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Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by TTman
Is it possible? the claim no is 424MC327 and I know the name of the
defendant ( the same as in my previous cases mentioned here) . He has an
unpaid CCJ against him.
If you know the court you could try ringing and asking them.
I wouldn't be surprised if they told you.
I emailed them, but I'm not hopeful about the answer... GDPR?
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Jon Ribbens
2024-11-12 00:11:19 UTC
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Post by TTman
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by TTman
Is it possible? the claim no is 424MC327 and I know the name of the
defendant ( the same as in my previous cases mentioned here) . He has an
unpaid CCJ against him.
If you know the court you could try ringing and asking them.
I wouldn't be surprised if they told you.
I emailed them, but I'm not hopeful about the answer... GDPR?
Well, yes, but many things about court proceedings are public.
All the dirty details are often published in court records which,
for cases that reach the higher courts, are often published on the
Internet!

I wouldn't hold my breath for a reply to an email though.
Jethro_uk
2024-11-12 11:09:54 UTC
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Post by Jon Ribbens
[quoted text muted]
Well, yes, but many things about court proceedings are public.
Even "public" information may be subject to restrictions.
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-12 11:24:10 UTC
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Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Jon Ribbens
[quoted text muted]
Well, yes, but many things about court proceedings are public.
Even "public" information may be subject to restrictions.
Yes, that's why I said that "I wouldn't be surprised" if they told him,
not they "will definitely" tell him. As I said, but you snipped, entire
court proceedings are published on-line, so the names of the parties
being routinely treated as confidential information seems unlikely.
Roland Perry
2024-11-12 08:56:42 UTC
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Post by TTman
Is it possible? the claim no is 424MC327 and I know the name of the
defendant ( the same as in my previous cases mentioned here) . He has
an unpaid CCJ against him.
This is what 'Private Investigators' do for a living. It may or may not
be simple for a member of the public to DIY.
--
Roland Perry
TTman
2024-11-12 22:44:04 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by TTman
Is it possible? the claim no is 424MC327 and I know the name of the
defendant ( the same as in my previous cases mentioned here) . He has
an unpaid CCJ against him.
This is what 'Private Investigators' do for a living. It may or may not
be simple for a member of the public to DIY.
In my 'other case' that I have been involved in, the claimant has
obtained a third party debt order and is waiting for the relevant
information from the bank.
Anybody know what sort of information the bank has to disclose?
Account name and address? Current balance? 1 year of statements ?
Any/all of those would be very useful. Respondant has plenty of money AFAIK.
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Roland Perry
2024-11-13 09:15:08 UTC
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Post by TTman
Post by Roland Perry
Post by TTman
Is it possible? the claim no is 424MC327 and I know the name of the
defendant ( the same as in my previous cases mentioned here) . He has
an unpaid CCJ against him.
This is what 'Private Investigators' do for a living. It may or may
not be simple for a member of the public to DIY.
In my 'other case' that I have been involved in, the claimant has
obtained a third party debt order and is waiting for the relevant
information from the bank.
Anybody know what sort of information the bank has to disclose?
Account name and address? Current balance? 1 year of statements ?
Any/all of those would be very useful. Respondant has plenty of money AFAIK.
Ask a PI.
--
Roland Perry
Simon Parker
2024-11-13 09:59:07 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by TTman
Post by TTman
Is it possible? the claim no is 424MC327 and I know the name of the
defendant ( the same as in my previous cases mentioned here) . He
has an unpaid CCJ against him.
 This is what 'Private Investigators' do for a living. It may or may
not  be simple for a member of the public to DIY.
In my 'other case' that I have been involved in, the claimant has
obtained a third party debt order and is waiting for the relevant
information from the bank.
Anybody know what sort of information the bank has to disclose?
Account name and address? Current balance? 1 year of statements ?
Any/all of those would be very useful. Respondant has plenty of money AFAIK.
Ask a PI.
Are you freelancing as a PI, Roland, or do you have a friend that has
recently entered the profession for whom you are trying to drum up
business? :-)

Absent that, what is behind your fascination for private investigators?

Regards

S.P.
Roland Perry
2024-11-13 10:28:11 UTC
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Post by Simon Parker
Post by Roland Perry
Post by TTman
Post by TTman
Is it possible? the claim no is 424MC327 and I know the name of
the defendant ( the same as in my previous cases mentioned here) .
He has an unpaid CCJ against him.
 This is what 'Private Investigators' do for a living. It may or
may not  be simple for a member of the public to DIY.
In my 'other case' that I have been involved in, the claimant has
obtained a third party debt order and is waiting for the relevant
information from the bank.
Anybody know what sort of information the bank has to disclose?
Account name and address? Current balance? 1 year of statements ?
Any/all of those would be very useful. Respondant has plenty of
money AFAIK.
Ask a PI.
Are you freelancing as a PI, Roland, or do you have a friend that has
recently entered the profession for whom you are trying to drum up
business? :-)
I did have a colleague for a couple of years who was previously a
general purpose PI, and we crossed paths when it came to tracing
online abusers. No idea what he's doing nowadays.
Post by Simon Parker
Absent that, what is behind your fascination for private investigators?
People seem keen to use appropriate professionals for things, like
fitting gas boilers and getting investment advice. So why not when it
comes to uncovering information?
--
Roland Perry
Simon Parker
2024-11-13 11:52:27 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Simon Parker
 Ask a PI.
Are you freelancing as a PI, Roland, or do you have a friend that has
recently entered the profession for whom you are trying to drum up
business? :-)
I did have a colleague for a couple of years who was previously a
general purpose PI, and we crossed paths when it came to tracing
online abusers. No idea what he's doing nowadays.
Thankfully, I have access to a team that perform background checks on
both individuals and companies which includes finding people that are
"off the radar". I find their ability to uncover information
frightening sometimes.

On one occasion, I needed to contact two family members with whom I
hadn't had contact for several decades and had no up-to-date, or even
historic, contact details for them. I asked if they could find details
of them for me. Unknown to me, both were now using different surnames
(different to the name I'd given and different to each other, neither
change having taken place as a result of marriage so not easily
traceable back to the names for which I was looking) which is why I had
had difficulty in locating them.

They provided contact details for both in under two days.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Simon Parker
Absent that, what is behind your fascination for private investigators?
People seem keen to use appropriate professionals for things, like
fitting gas boilers and getting investment advice. So why not when it
comes to uncovering information?
The information requested regarding a Third Party Debt Order was:

"Anybody know what sort of information the bank has to disclose?"

"Account name and address? Current balance? 1 year of statements?"

Why do you consider a PI to be a better source for locating the answer
to those questions rather than asking in a legal NG?

We could have a bot automatically follow up all new threads with a
response from a list including "Ask a solicitor." and "Ask a PI.".

I like to hope that the NG aspires to do better than that.

Regards

S.P.
Roland Perry
2024-11-13 12:14:06 UTC
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Post by Simon Parker
Post by Roland Perry
People seem keen to use appropriate professionals for things, like
fitting gas boilers and getting investment advice. So why not when it
comes to uncovering information?
"Anybody know what sort of information the bank has to disclose?"
"Account name and address? Current balance? 1 year of statements?"
Why do you consider a PI to be a better source for locating the answer
to those questions rather than asking in a legal NG?
If the request is for information about a particular 3rd party debt
order, then persons here are probably not the ones to ask.
Post by Simon Parker
We could have a bot automatically follow up all new threads with a
response from a list including "Ask a solicitor." and "Ask a PI.".
Actually, "Get professional legal advice" has always been a common
response to questions here.
--
Roland Perry
Simon Parker
2024-11-13 12:45:02 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Simon Parker
 People seem keen to use appropriate professionals for things, like
fitting gas boilers and getting investment advice. So why not when it
comes to uncovering information?
"Anybody know what sort of information the bank has to disclose?"
"Account name and address? Current balance? 1 year of statements?"
Why do you consider a PI to be a better source for locating the answer
to those questions rather than asking in a legal NG?
If the request is for information about a particular 3rd party debt
order, then persons here are probably not the ones to ask.
I considered the question to be in the general rather than the specific
and have answered on that basis.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Simon Parker
We could have a bot automatically follow up all new threads with a
response from a list including "Ask a solicitor." and "Ask a PI.".
Actually, "Get professional legal advice" has always been a common
response to questions here.
Responses here are no substitute for professional legal advice. That
doesn't mean we shouldn't make responses of any kind here just because
they don't signpost professional legal advice. Otherwise, there's no
point in the group existing.

Regards

S.P.
Roland Perry
2024-11-13 13:01:30 UTC
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Post by Simon Parker
Post by Roland Perry
Actually, "Get professional legal advice" has always been a common
response to questions here.
Responses here are no substitute for professional legal advice. That
doesn't mean we shouldn't make responses of any kind here just because
they don't signpost professional legal advice. Otherwise, there's no
point in the group existing.
If we have specific experience in the topic. Which is not always the
case. But where we do, it's great!
--
Roland Perry
Simon Parker
2024-11-14 11:55:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
 Actually, "Get professional legal advice" has always been a common
response to questions here.
Responses here are no substitute for professional legal advice.  That
doesn't mean we shouldn't make responses of any kind here just because
they don't signpost professional legal advice.  Otherwise, there's no
point in the group existing.
If we have specific experience in the topic. Which is not always the
case. But where we do, it's great!
I've worked at a chambers that specialised in debt recovery (from both
sides of the equation - that is disputed commercial debt and assisting
individuals that were on the receiving end of the more extreme
machinations of the debt industry, (the latter being more personally
rewarding than the former)). If I may be permitted to do so, I'll cite
this in the "specific experience in the topic" category when Third Party
Debt Orders are being discussed. :-)

Regards

S.P.
Simon Parker
2024-11-13 09:57:08 UTC
Reply
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Post by TTman
Post by Roland Perry
Post by TTman
Is it possible? the claim no is 424MC327 and I know the name of the
defendant ( the same as in my previous cases mentioned here) . He has
an unpaid CCJ against him.
This is what 'Private Investigators' do for a living. It may or may
not be simple for a member of the public to DIY.
In my 'other case' that I have been involved in, the claimant has
obtained a third party debt order and is waiting for the relevant
information from the bank.
Anybody know what sort of information the bank has to disclose?
Account name and address? Current balance? 1 year of statements ?
Any/all of those would be very useful. Respondant has plenty of money AFAIK.
A Third Party Debt Order is not a request for information. It freezes
the money in the account which is then be used to settle the debt.

If served on a specific account, the bank will tell the court and the
creditor the account number and if the account is in credit.

If served on the bank or building society, they have the responsibility
to carry out a search to identify accounts held in the name of the
debtor and then tell the creditor and court the account number and if
the account is in credit.

The judgment debtor will have applied for one N349 which I've linked
below [^1] so you can see the information requested on the form.

Regards

S.P.

[^1]
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-n349-application-for-third-party-debt-order
TTman
2024-11-13 12:27:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
A Third Party Debt Order is not a request for information.  It freezes
the money in the account which is then be used to settle the debt.
If served on a specific account, the bank will tell the court and the
creditor the account number and if the account is in credit.
If served on the bank or building society, they have the responsibility
to carry out a search to identify accounts held in the name of the
debtor and then tell the creditor and court the account number and if
the account is in credit.
The judgment debtor will have applied for one N349 which I've linked
below [^1] so you can see the information requested on the form.
Regards
S.P.
[^1] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-n349-application-
for-third-party-debt-order
Thx for that. Does that mean the bank will not disclose the account balance?
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Simon Parker
2024-11-13 12:42:23 UTC
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Permalink
Post by TTman
A Third Party Debt Order is not a request for information.  It freezes
the money in the account which is then be used to settle the debt.
If served on a specific account, the bank will tell the court and the
creditor the account number and if the account is in credit.
If served on the bank or building society, they have the
responsibility to carry out a search to identify accounts held in the
name of the debtor and then tell the creditor and court the account
number and if the account is in credit.
The judgment debtor will have applied for one N349 which I've linked
below [^1] so you can see the information requested on the form.
Regards
S.P.
[^1] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-n349-application-
for-third-party-debt-order
Thx for that. Does that mean the bank will not disclose the account balance?
It depends.

See CPR Part 72, more specifically Rule 72.6 (2)(c) [^1].

<quote>
(2) The bank or building society must disclose to the court and the
creditor within 7 days of being served with the order, in respect of
each account held by the judgment debtor –

(a) the number of the account;

(b) whether the account is in credit; and

(c) if the account is in credit –

(i) whether the balance of the account is sufficient to cover the amount
specified in the order;

(ii) the amount of the balance at the date it was served with the order,
if it is less than the amount specified in the order; and

(iii) whether the bank or building society asserts any right to the
money in the account, whether pursuant to a right of set-off or
otherwise, and if so giving details of the grounds for that assertion.
<end quote>

If the account is in credit by an amount sufficient to cover the amount
specified in the order (typically the outstanding debt plus the cost of
the Third Party Debt Order), the bank need only disclose this fact.

If the account balance is less than the order amount, the actual balance
will be disclosed.

Regards

S.P.

[^1]
https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part72#IDATHSBB
TTman
2024-11-13 23:30:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Simon Parker
Post by TTman
A Third Party Debt Order is not a request for information.  It
freezes the money in the account which is then be used to settle the
debt.
If served on a specific account, the bank will tell the court and the
creditor the account number and if the account is in credit.
If served on the bank or building society, they have the
responsibility to carry out a search to identify accounts held in the
name of the debtor and then tell the creditor and court the account
number and if the account is in credit.
The judgment debtor will have applied for one N349 which I've linked
below [^1] so you can see the information requested on the form.
Regards
S.P.
[^1] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-n349-
application- for-third-party-debt-order
Thx for that. Does that mean the bank will not disclose the account balance?
It depends.
See CPR Part 72, more specifically Rule 72.6 (2)(c) [^1].
<quote>
(2) The bank or building society must disclose to the court and the
creditor within 7 days of being served with the order, in respect of
each account held by the judgment debtor –
(a) the number of the account;
(b) whether the account is in credit; and
(c) if the account is in credit –
(i) whether the balance of the account is sufficient to cover the amount
specified in the order;
(ii) the amount of the balance at the date it was served with the order,
if it is less than the amount specified in the order; and
(iii) whether the bank or building society asserts any right to the
money in the account, whether pursuant to a right of set-off or
otherwise, and if so giving details of the grounds for that assertion.
<end quote>
If the account is in credit by an amount sufficient to cover the amount
specified in the order (typically the outstanding debt plus the cost of
the Third Party Debt Order), the bank need only disclose this fact.
If the account balance is less than the order amount, the actual balance
will be disclosed.
Regards
S.P.
[^1] https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/
part72#IDATHSBB
Very useful, many thanks.The debtor has already filed a 'poverty'
claim...:-"application for suspension ofa warrant or variation of an order."
It is onerous/suspicious that the date on his application is the exact
same date that my friend submitted her TPDO to the local county court.
How did he find out about the TPDO?
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Roger Hayter
2024-11-13 23:49:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by TTman
Post by Simon Parker
Post by TTman
Post by Simon Parker
A Third Party Debt Order is not a request for information. It
freezes the money in the account which is then be used to settle the
debt.
If served on a specific account, the bank will tell the court and the
creditor the account number and if the account is in credit.
If served on the bank or building society, they have the
responsibility to carry out a search to identify accounts held in the
name of the debtor and then tell the creditor and court the account
number and if the account is in credit.
The judgment debtor will have applied for one N349 which I've linked
below [^1] so you can see the information requested on the form.
Regards
S.P.
[^1] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-n349-
application- for-third-party-debt-order
Thx for that. Does that mean the bank will not disclose the account balance?
It depends.
See CPR Part 72, more specifically Rule 72.6 (2)(c) [^1].
<quote>
(2) The bank or building society must disclose to the court and the
creditor within 7 days of being served with the order, in respect of
each account held by the judgment debtor –
(a) the number of the account;
(b) whether the account is in credit; and
(c) if the account is in credit –
(i) whether the balance of the account is sufficient to cover the amount
specified in the order;
(ii) the amount of the balance at the date it was served with the order,
if it is less than the amount specified in the order; and
(iii) whether the bank or building society asserts any right to the
money in the account, whether pursuant to a right of set-off or
otherwise, and if so giving details of the grounds for that assertion.
<end quote>
If the account is in credit by an amount sufficient to cover the amount
specified in the order (typically the outstanding debt plus the cost of
the Third Party Debt Order), the bank need only disclose this fact.
If the account balance is less than the order amount, the actual balance
will be disclosed.
Regards
S.P.
[^1] https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/
part72#IDATHSBB
Very useful, many thanks.The debtor has already filed a 'poverty'
claim...:-"application for suspension ofa warrant or variation of an order."
It is onerous/suspicious that the date on his application is the exact
same date that my friend submitted her TPDO to the local county court.
How did he find out about the TPDO?
As I remarked earlier, I doubt if he can easily shift all the money out of his
pension. Might be worth considering if the bank accounts turn out to be empty.
--
Roger Hayter
GB
2024-11-14 10:31:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by TTman
Post by Simon Parker
Post by TTman
Post by Simon Parker
A Third Party Debt Order is not a request for information. It
freezes the money in the account which is then be used to settle the
debt.
If served on a specific account, the bank will tell the court and the
creditor the account number and if the account is in credit.
If served on the bank or building society, they have the
responsibility to carry out a search to identify accounts held in the
name of the debtor and then tell the creditor and court the account
number and if the account is in credit.
The judgment debtor will have applied for one N349 which I've linked
below [^1] so you can see the information requested on the form.
Regards
S.P.
[^1] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-n349-
application- for-third-party-debt-order
Thx for that. Does that mean the bank will not disclose the account balance?
It depends.
See CPR Part 72, more specifically Rule 72.6 (2)(c) [^1].
<quote>
(2) The bank or building society must disclose to the court and the
creditor within 7 days of being served with the order, in respect of
each account held by the judgment debtor –
(a) the number of the account;
(b) whether the account is in credit; and
(c) if the account is in credit –
(i) whether the balance of the account is sufficient to cover the amount
specified in the order;
(ii) the amount of the balance at the date it was served with the order,
if it is less than the amount specified in the order; and
(iii) whether the bank or building society asserts any right to the
money in the account, whether pursuant to a right of set-off or
otherwise, and if so giving details of the grounds for that assertion.
<end quote>
If the account is in credit by an amount sufficient to cover the amount
specified in the order (typically the outstanding debt plus the cost of
the Third Party Debt Order), the bank need only disclose this fact.
If the account balance is less than the order amount, the actual balance
will be disclosed.
Regards
S.P.
[^1] https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/
part72#IDATHSBB
Very useful, many thanks.The debtor has already filed a 'poverty'
claim...:-"application for suspension ofa warrant or variation of an order."
It is onerous/suspicious that the date on his application is the exact
same date that my friend submitted her TPDO to the local county court.
How did he find out about the TPDO?
As I remarked earlier, I doubt if he can easily shift all the money out of his
pension. Might be worth considering if the bank accounts turn out to be empty.
Is the creditor over age 55?
TTman
2024-11-14 22:29:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by GB
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by TTman
Post by Simon Parker
Post by TTman
A Third Party Debt Order is not a request for information.  It
freezes the money in the account which is then be used to settle the
debt.
If served on a specific account, the bank will tell the court and the
creditor the account number and if the account is in credit.
If served on the bank or building society, they have the
responsibility to carry out a search to identify accounts held in the
name of the debtor and then tell the creditor and court the account
number and if the account is in credit.
The judgment debtor will have applied for one N349 which I've linked
below [^1] so you can see the information requested on the form.
Regards
S.P.
[^1] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-n349-
application- for-third-party-debt-order
Thx for that. Does that mean the bank will not disclose the account balance?
It depends.
See CPR Part 72, more specifically Rule 72.6 (2)(c) [^1].
<quote>
(2) The bank or building society must disclose to the court and the
creditor within 7 days of being served with the order, in respect of
each account held by the judgment debtor –
(a) the number of the account;
(b) whether the account is in credit; and
(c) if the account is in credit –
(i) whether the balance of the account is sufficient to cover the amount
specified in the order;
(ii) the amount of the balance at the date it was served with the order,
if it is less than the amount specified in the order; and
(iii) whether the bank or building society asserts any right to the
money in the account, whether pursuant to a right of set-off or
otherwise, and if so giving details of the grounds for that assertion.
<end quote>
If the account is in credit by an amount sufficient to cover the amount
specified in the order (typically the outstanding debt plus the cost of
the Third Party Debt Order), the bank need only disclose this fact.
If the account balance is less than the order amount, the actual balance
will be disclosed.
Regards
S.P.
[^1] https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/
part72#IDATHSBB
Very useful, many thanks.The debtor has already filed a 'poverty'
claim...:-"application for suspension ofa warrant or variation of an order."
It is onerous/suspicious that the date on his application is the exact
same date that my friend submitted her TPDO to the local county court.
How did he find out about the TPDO?
As I remarked earlier, I doubt if he can easily shift all the money out of his
pension. Might be worth considering if the bank accounts turn out to be empty.
Is the creditor over age 55?
Yes , a lot more over 55.Is that relevant?
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GB
2024-11-15 11:56:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by TTman
Post by GB
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by TTman
Post by Simon Parker
Post by TTman
A Third Party Debt Order is not a request for information.  It
freezes the money in the account which is then be used to settle the
debt.
If served on a specific account, the bank will tell the court and the
creditor the account number and if the account is in credit.
If served on the bank or building society, they have the
responsibility to carry out a search to identify accounts held in the
name of the debtor and then tell the creditor and court the account
number and if the account is in credit.
The judgment debtor will have applied for one N349 which I've linked
below [^1] so you can see the information requested on the form.
Regards
S.P.
[^1] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-n349-
application- for-third-party-debt-order
Thx for that. Does that mean the bank will not disclose the account balance?
It depends.
See CPR Part 72, more specifically Rule 72.6 (2)(c) [^1].
<quote>
(2) The bank or building society must disclose to the court and the
creditor within 7 days of being served with the order, in respect of
each account held by the judgment debtor –
(a) the number of the account;
(b) whether the account is in credit; and
(c) if the account is in credit –
(i) whether the balance of the account is sufficient to cover the amount
specified in the order;
(ii) the amount of the balance at the date it was served with the order,
if it is less than the amount specified in the order; and
(iii) whether the bank or building society asserts any right to the
money in the account, whether pursuant to a right of set-off or
otherwise, and if so giving details of the grounds for that assertion.
<end quote>
If the account is in credit by an amount sufficient to cover the amount
specified in the order (typically the outstanding debt plus the cost of
the Third Party Debt Order), the bank need only disclose this fact.
If the account balance is less than the order amount, the actual balance
will be disclosed.
Regards
S.P.
[^1] https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/
part72#IDATHSBB
Very useful, many thanks.The debtor has already filed a 'poverty'
claim...:-"application for suspension ofa warrant or variation of an order."
It is onerous/suspicious that the date on his application is the exact
same date that my friend submitted her TPDO to the local county court.
How did he find out about the TPDO?
As I remarked earlier, I doubt if he can easily shift all the money out of his
pension. Might be worth considering if the bank accounts turn out to be empty.
Is the creditor over age 55?
Yes , a lot more over 55.Is that relevant?
Sorry, I meant the debtor!
TTman
2024-11-15 22:24:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by GB
Post by TTman
Post by GB
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by TTman
Post by Simon Parker
Post by TTman
A Third Party Debt Order is not a request for information.  It
freezes the money in the account which is then be used to settle the
debt.
If served on a specific account, the bank will tell the court and the
creditor the account number and if the account is in credit.
If served on the bank or building society, they have the
responsibility to carry out a search to identify accounts held in the
name of the debtor and then tell the creditor and court the account
number and if the account is in credit.
The judgment debtor will have applied for one N349 which I've linked
below [^1] so you can see the information requested on the form.
Regards
S.P.
[^1] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-n349-
application- for-third-party-debt-order
Thx for that. Does that mean the bank will not disclose the account balance?
It depends.
See CPR Part 72, more specifically Rule 72.6 (2)(c) [^1].
<quote>
(2) The bank or building society must disclose to the court and the
creditor within 7 days of being served with the order, in respect of
each account held by the judgment debtor –
(a) the number of the account;
(b) whether the account is in credit; and
(c) if the account is in credit –
(i) whether the balance of the account is sufficient to cover the amount
specified in the order;
(ii) the amount of the balance at the date it was served with the order,
if it is less than the amount specified in the order; and
(iii) whether the bank or building society asserts any right to the
money in the account, whether pursuant to a right of set-off or
otherwise, and if so giving details of the grounds for that assertion.
<end quote>
If the account is in credit by an amount sufficient to cover the amount
specified in the order (typically the outstanding debt plus the cost of
the Third Party Debt Order), the bank need only disclose this fact.
If the account balance is less than the order amount, the actual balance
will be disclosed.
Regards
S.P.
[^1] https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/
part72#IDATHSBB
Very useful, many thanks.The debtor has already filed a 'poverty'
claim...:-"application for suspension ofa warrant or variation of an order."
It is onerous/suspicious that the date on his application is the exact
same date that my friend submitted her TPDO to the local county court.
How did he find out about the TPDO?
As I remarked earlier, I doubt if he can easily shift all the money out of his
pension. Might be worth considering if the bank accounts turn out to be empty.
Is the creditor over age 55?
Yes , a lot more over 55.Is that relevant?
Sorry, I meant the debtor!
Debtor is 69, Claimant is 70+
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GB
2024-11-16 14:32:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by TTman
Post by GB
Post by TTman
Post by GB
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by TTman
Post by Simon Parker
Post by TTman
A Third Party Debt Order is not a request for information.  It
freezes the money in the account which is then be used to settle the
debt.
If served on a specific account, the bank will tell the court and the
creditor the account number and if the account is in credit.
If served on the bank or building society, they have the
responsibility to carry out a search to identify accounts held in the
name of the debtor and then tell the creditor and court the account
number and if the account is in credit.
The judgment debtor will have applied for one N349 which I've linked
below [^1] so you can see the information requested on the form.
Regards
S.P.
[^1] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-n349-
application- for-third-party-debt-order
Thx for that. Does that mean the bank will not disclose the account balance?
It depends.
See CPR Part 72, more specifically Rule 72.6 (2)(c) [^1].
<quote>
(2) The bank or building society must disclose to the court and the
creditor within 7 days of being served with the order, in respect of
each account held by the judgment debtor –
(a) the number of the account;
(b) whether the account is in credit; and
(c) if the account is in credit –
(i) whether the balance of the account is sufficient to cover the amount
specified in the order;
(ii) the amount of the balance at the date it was served with the order,
if it is less than the amount specified in the order; and
(iii) whether the bank or building society asserts any right to the
money in the account, whether pursuant to a right of set-off or
otherwise, and if so giving details of the grounds for that assertion.
<end quote>
If the account is in credit by an amount sufficient to cover the amount
specified in the order (typically the outstanding debt plus the cost of
the Third Party Debt Order), the bank need only disclose this fact.
If the account balance is less than the order amount, the actual balance
will be disclosed.
Regards
S.P.
[^1] https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/
part72#IDATHSBB
Very useful, many thanks.The debtor has already filed a 'poverty'
claim...:-"application for suspension ofa warrant or variation of an order."
It is onerous/suspicious that the date on his application is the exact
same date that my friend submitted her TPDO to the local county court.
How did he find out about the TPDO?
As I remarked earlier, I doubt if he can easily shift all the money out of his
pension. Might be worth considering if the bank accounts turn out to be empty.
Is the creditor over age 55?
Yes , a lot more over 55.Is that relevant?
Sorry, I meant the debtor!
Debtor is 69, Claimant is 70+
You can get a court order requiring him to draw down his pension, and
get an attachment order for the pension he draws. You can't simply
snaffle the fund itself.


https://england.shelter.org.uk/professional_resources/legal/debt/debt_case_law_summaries/brake_v_guy_and_others
billy bookcase
2024-11-16 18:48:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by TTman
Post by GB
Post by TTman
Post by GB
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by TTman
Post by Simon Parker
Post by TTman
A Third Party Debt Order is not a request for information. It
freezes the money in the account which is then be used to settle the
debt.
If served on a specific account, the bank will tell the court and the
creditor the account number and if the account is in credit.
If served on the bank or building society, they have the
responsibility to carry out a search to identify accounts held in the
name of the debtor and then tell the creditor and court the account
number and if the account is in credit.
The judgment debtor will have applied for one N349 which I've linked
below [^1] so you can see the information requested on the form.
Regards
S.P.
[^1] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-n349-
application- for-third-party-debt-order
Thx for that. Does that mean the bank will not disclose the account
balance?
It depends.
See CPR Part 72, more specifically Rule 72.6 (2)(c) [^1].
<quote>
(2) The bank or building society must disclose to the court and the
creditor within 7 days of being served with the order, in respect of
each account held by the judgment debtor -
(a) the number of the account;
(b) whether the account is in credit; and
(c) if the account is in credit -
(i) whether the balance of the account is sufficient to cover the amount
specified in the order;
(ii) the amount of the balance at the date it was served with the order,
if it is less than the amount specified in the order; and
(iii) whether the bank or building society asserts any right to the
money in the account, whether pursuant to a right of set-off or
otherwise, and if so giving details of the grounds for that assertion.
<end quote>
If the account is in credit by an amount sufficient to cover the amount
specified in the order (typically the outstanding debt plus the cost of
the Third Party Debt Order), the bank need only disclose this fact.
If the account balance is less than the order amount, the actual balance
will be disclosed.
Regards
S.P.
[^1] https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/
part72#IDATHSBB
Very useful, many thanks.The debtor has already filed a 'poverty'
claim...:-"application for suspension ofa warrant or variation of an order."
It is onerous/suspicious that the date on his application is the exact
same date that my friend submitted her TPDO to the local county court.
How did he find out about the TPDO?
As I remarked earlier, I doubt if he can easily shift all the money out of his
pension. Might be worth considering if the bank accounts turn out to be empty.
Is the creditor over age 55?
Yes , a lot more over 55.Is that relevant?
Sorry, I meant the debtor!
Debtor is 69, Claimant is 70+
You can get a court order requiring him to draw down his pension, and get an attachment
order for the pension he draws. You can't simply snaffle the fund itself.
https://england.shelter.org.uk/professional_resources/legal/debt/debt_case_law_summaries/brake_v_guy_and_others
But surely only if the pension in question permits drawdowns, as this particular pension

quote:

On 14th September 2021, Mr Brake moved his pension to a 'Flexi-access drawdown' pension

unquote

did.


bb
Peter Walker
2024-11-16 19:06:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by GB
Post by TTman
Debtor is 69, Claimant is 70+
You can get a court order requiring him to draw down his pension, and
get an attachment order for the pension he draws. You can't simply
snaffle the fund itself.
https://england.shelter.org.uk/professional_resources/legal/debt/debt_c
ase_law_summaries/brake_v_guy_and_others
I welcome the judgement but on reading the summary I'm struggling to see
how 'the debt' only existed if the defendant was able to initiate a
drawdown. Surely if a separate judgement had been achieved against the
defendant by the claimant then a debt would have resulted from that. The
defendant would have been liable (endebted) whether he was able to source
the funds or not.
Roger Hayter
2024-11-16 19:42:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Walker
Post by GB
Post by TTman
Debtor is 69, Claimant is 70+
You can get a court order requiring him to draw down his pension, and
get an attachment order for the pension he draws. You can't simply
snaffle the fund itself.
https://england.shelter.org.uk/professional_resources/legal/debt/debt_c
ase_law_summaries/brake_v_guy_and_others
I welcome the judgement but on reading the summary I'm struggling to see
how 'the debt' only existed if the defendant was able to initiate a
drawdown. Surely if a separate judgement had been achieved against the
defendant by the claimant then a debt would have resulted from that. The
defendant would have been liable (endebted) whether he was able to source
the funds or not.
The debt certainly existed between the pensioner and the claimant because of a
previous case, but the pension company could be said to have a debt to the
claimant only if they held cash owing to the pensioner. They held a pension
fund for the pensioner, but no cash until or unless the pensioner asked them
for a drawdown. The court ordered the pensioner to ask for a drawdown so that
the pension company held a large chunk of cash nominally for the pensioner,
but the third party debt order meant that they owed it to the claimant and had
to pay the claimant before giving any to the pensioner.
--
Roger Hayter
Peter Walker
2024-11-16 19:46:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Peter Walker
Post by GB
Post by TTman
Debtor is 69, Claimant is 70+
You can get a court order requiring him to draw down his pension,
and get an attachment order for the pension he draws. You can't
simply snaffle the fund itself.
https://england.shelter.org.uk/professional_resources/legal/debt/debt
_c ase_law_summaries/brake_v_guy_and_others
I welcome the judgement but on reading the summary I'm struggling to
see how 'the debt' only existed if the defendant was able to initiate
a drawdown. Surely if a separate judgement had been achieved against
the defendant by the claimant then a debt would have resulted from
that. The defendant would have been liable (endebted) whether he was
able to source the funds or not.
The debt certainly existed between the pensioner and the claimant
because of a previous case, but the pension company could be said to
have a debt to the claimant only if they held cash owing to the
pensioner. They held a pension fund for the pensioner, but no cash
until or unless the pensioner asked them for a drawdown. The court
ordered the pensioner to ask for a drawdown so that the pension
company held a large chunk of cash nominally for the pensioner, but
the third party debt order meant that they owed it to the claimant and
had to pay the claimant before giving any to the pensioner.
Clarity, thx.
TTman
2024-11-16 22:25:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Walker
Post by GB
Post by TTman
Debtor is 69, Claimant is 70+
You can get a court order requiring him to draw down his pension, and
get an attachment order for the pension he draws. You can't simply
snaffle the fund itself.
https://england.shelter.org.uk/professional_resources/legal/debt/debt_c
ase_law_summaries/brake_v_guy_and_others
I welcome the judgement but on reading the summary I'm struggling to see
how 'the debt' only existed if the defendant was able to initiate a
drawdown. Surely if a separate judgement had been achieved against the
defendant by the claimant then a debt would have resulted from that. The
defendant would have been liable (endebted) whether he was able to source
the funds or not.
There is a further article that suggests an order can be made that pays
the whole of the pension fund to the creditor
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GB
2024-11-17 15:01:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by TTman
Post by Peter Walker
Post by GB
Post by TTman
Debtor is 69, Claimant is 70+
You can get a court order requiring him to draw down his pension, and
get an attachment order for the pension he draws. You can't simply
snaffle the fund itself.
https://england.shelter.org.uk/professional_resources/legal/debt/debt_c
ase_law_summaries/brake_v_guy_and_others
I welcome the judgement but on reading the summary I'm struggling to see
how 'the debt' only existed if the defendant was able to initiate a
drawdown. Surely if a separate judgement had been achieved against the
defendant by the claimant then a debt would have resulted from that. The
defendant would have been liable (endebted) whether he was able to source
the funds or not.
There is a further article that suggests an order can be made that pays
the whole of the pension fund to the creditor
A link would help, but the government changed the law some time ago
removing any limits on the %age of the fund that can be taken as a
single instalment of pension.
Simon Parker
2024-11-14 11:58:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by TTman
Post by Simon Parker
Post by TTman
Thx for that. Does that mean the bank will not disclose the account balance?
It depends.
See CPR Part 72, more specifically Rule 72.6 (2)(c) [^1].
<quote>
(2) The bank or building society must disclose to the court and the
creditor within 7 days of being served with the order, in respect of
each account held by the judgment debtor –
(a) the number of the account;
(b) whether the account is in credit; and
(c) if the account is in credit –
(i) whether the balance of the account is sufficient to cover the
amount specified in the order;
(ii) the amount of the balance at the date it was served with the
order, if it is less than the amount specified in the order; and
(iii) whether the bank or building society asserts any right to the
money in the account, whether pursuant to a right of set-off or
otherwise, and if so giving details of the grounds for that assertion.
<end quote>
If the account is in credit by an amount sufficient to cover the
amount specified in the order (typically the outstanding debt plus the
cost of the Third Party Debt Order), the bank need only disclose this
fact.
If the account balance is less than the order amount, the actual
balance will be disclosed.
[^1] https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/
Very useful, many thanks.The debtor has already filed a 'poverty'
claim...:-"application for suspension ofa warrant or variation of an order."
That could prove very useful to you. I assume the original order was to
pay the amount owed plus costs as a single payment?

The "Application for suspension of a warrant and/or variation of an
order", form N245 - a copy of which I've linked below [^1], includes a
lot of information about the judgment debtor's financial position.

For example, (assuming self-employed rather than salaried employee),
annual turnover, whether or not they are in arrears with HMRC, contracts
and other work on hand, sums due for work done, bank balance, savings,
property ownership, full income details (including pensions), expenses,
priority debts, existing court orders, credit debts and, perhaps most
importantly, their offer of payment.

I say this last one is perhaps most important as a copy of the N245 is
sent to the judgment creditor, (i.e you) along with form N246. Upon
receipt, you have three options:

(1) Accept the granting of the order;

(2) Agree to the variation order being granted but object to the amount
being offered; or

(3) Object entirely to the granting of the variation order.

For options 2 and 3 you will be asked to provide details of your
objection(s).

If you can demonstrate the judgment debtor has, or is attempting to,
mislead the court on their N245, this is your opportunity to do so.

Similarly, you may ask for further details of existing debt repayments
to determine when they end which may allow the amount proffered under
the order to be increased at that time.

In any event, options 2 or 3 may lead to a hearing at which you and the
judgment debtor can state your respective cases or the matter may be
determined on the papers only.

You must return the N246 within within 14 days. If you fail to do this,
the court will make an order varying their original order to the new
terms as requested by the judgment debtor.
Post by TTman
It is onerous/suspicious that the date on his application is the exact
same date that my friend submitted her TPDO to the local county court.
How did he find out about the TPDO?
It is likely to be entirely coincidental.

When an application for a Third Party Debt Order (TPDO) is received,
court staff issue the application and refer it to a judge and if the
judge is satisfied with the information provided they will make an
interim TPDO.

This is sent to both the applicant and the third party by first class post.

A copy is only sent to the debtor 7 days after it has been sent to the
third party to ensure the third party can 'freeze' the money before the
debtor learns of the order.

Regards

S.P.

[^1]
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e4cf8e686650c10e96037fe/n245-eng.pdf
TTman
2024-11-14 22:37:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
SNIP
That could prove very useful to you.  I assume the original order was to
pay the amount owed plus costs as a single payment?
Yes, it was , about £13k
The "Application for suspension of a warrant and/or variation of an
order", form N245 - a copy of which I've linked below [^1], includes a
lot of information about the judgment debtor's financial position.
For example, (assuming self-employed rather than salaried employee),
annual turnover, whether or not they are in arrears with HMRC, contracts
and other work on hand, sums due for work done, bank balance, savings,
property ownership, full income details (including pensions), expenses,
priority debts, existing court orders, credit debts and, perhaps most
importantly, their offer of payment.
I say this last one is perhaps most important as a copy of the N245 is
sent to the judgment creditor, (i.e you) along with form N246.  Upon
(1) Accept the granting of the order;
(2) Agree to the variation order being granted but object to the amount
being offered; or
(3) Object entirely to the granting of the variation order.
********** I think the claimant will object entirely
For options 2 and 3 you will be asked to provide details of your
objection(s).
Thx for the heads up.
If you can demonstrate the judgment debtor has, or is attempting to,
mislead the court on their N245, this is your opportunity to do so.
He most definitely is... claiming he is in lodgings in an industrial
estate... Has claimed £40 a month for gas. The estate has no gas... etc.
Similarly, you may ask for further details of existing debt repayments
to determine when they end which may allow the amount proffered under
the order to be increased at that time.
Thx
In any event, options 2 or 3 may lead to a hearing at which you and the
judgment debtor can state your respective cases or the matter may be
determined on the papers only.
There is a hearing scheduled for 13th December
You must return the N246 within within 14 days.  If you fail to do this,
the court will make an order varying their original order to the new
terms as requested by the judgment debtor.
Post by TTman
It is onerous/suspicious that the date on his application is the exact
same date that my friend submitted her TPDO to the local county court.
How did he find out about the TPDO?
It is likely to be entirely coincidental.
When an application for a Third Party Debt Order (TPDO) is received,
court staff issue the application and refer it to a judge and if the
judge is satisfied with the information provided they will make an
interim TPDO.
This is sent to both the applicant and the third party by first class post.
A copy is only sent to the debtor 7 days after it has been sent to the
third party to ensure the third party can 'freeze' the money before the
debtor learns of the order.
Regards
S.P.
[^1] https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/
media/5e4cf8e686650c10e96037fe/n245-eng.pdf
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Roland Perry
2024-11-15 08:42:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by TTman
Post by Simon Parker
If you can demonstrate the judgment debtor has, or is attempting to,
mislead the court on their N245, this is your opportunity to do so.
He most definitely is... claiming he is in lodgings in an industrial
estate... Has claimed £40 a month for gas. The estate has no gas... etc.
The house I lived in 35yrs ago was heated with bottled gas.
--
Roland Perry
TTman
2024-11-14 22:59:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by TTman
Post by Simon Parker
Post by TTman
Thx for that. Does that mean the bank will not disclose the account balance?
It depends.
See CPR Part 72, more specifically Rule 72.6 (2)(c) [^1].
<quote>
(2) The bank or building society must disclose to the court and the
creditor within 7 days of being served with the order, in respect of
each account held by the judgment debtor –
(a) the number of the account;
(b) whether the account is in credit; and
(c) if the account is in credit –
(i) whether the balance of the account is sufficient to cover the
amount specified in the order;
(ii) the amount of the balance at the date it was served with the
order, if it is less than the amount specified in the order; and
(iii) whether the bank or building society asserts any right to the
money in the account, whether pursuant to a right of set-off or
otherwise, and if so giving details of the grounds for that assertion.
<end quote>
If the account is in credit by an amount sufficient to cover the
amount specified in the order (typically the outstanding debt plus
the cost of the Third Party Debt Order), the bank need only disclose
this fact.
If the account balance is less than the order amount, the actual
balance will be disclosed.
[^1] https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/
Very useful, many thanks.The debtor has already filed a 'poverty'
claim...:-"application for suspension ofa warrant or variation of an order."
That could prove very useful to you.  I assume the original order was to
pay the amount owed plus costs as a single payment?
Yes
The "Application for suspension of a warrant and/or variation of an
order", form N245 - a copy of which I've linked below [^1], includes a
lot of information about the judgment debtor's financial position.
For example, (assuming self-employed rather than salaried employee),
annual turnover, whether or not they are in arrears with HMRC, contracts
and other work on hand, sums due for work done, bank balance, savings,
property ownership, full income details (including pensions), expenses,
priority debts, existing court orders, credit debts and, perhaps most
importantly, their offer of payment.
I say this last one is perhaps most important as a copy of the N245 is
sent to the judgment creditor, (i.e you) along with form N246.  Upon
(1) Accept the granting of the order;
(2) Agree to the variation order being granted but object to the amount
being offered; or
(3) Object entirely to the granting of the variation order.
For options 2 and 3 you will be asked to provide details of your
objection(s).
My friend is objecting entirely. There is a court hearing scheduled for
December
If you can demonstrate the judgment debtor has, or is attempting to,
mislead the court on their N245, this is your opportunity to do so.
He is... claiming he is in lodgings in an industrial estate . Among
other things, claiming for gas yet there is no gas on the estate and the
landlord has no knowledge of the debtor.
Similarly, you may ask for further details of existing debt repayments
to determine when they end which may allow the amount proffered under
the order to be increased at that time.
In any event, options 2 or 3 may lead to a hearing at which you and the
judgment debtor can state your respective cases or the matter may be
determined on the papers only.
You must return the N246 within within 14 days.  If you fail to do this,
the court will make an order varying their original order to the new
terms as requested by the judgment debtor.
Forms returned.
Post by TTman
It is onerous/suspicious that the date on his application is the exact
same date that my friend submitted her TPDO to the local county court.
How did he find out about the TPDO?
It is likely to be entirely coincidental.
When an application for a Third Party Debt Order (TPDO) is received,
court staff issue the application and refer it to a judge and if the
judge is satisfied with the information provided they will make an
interim TPDO.
This is sent to both the applicant and the third party by first class post.
A copy is only sent to the debtor 7 days after it has been sent to the
third party to ensure the third party can 'freeze' the money before the
debtor learns of the order.
Regards
S.P.
[^1] https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/
media/5e4cf8e686650c10e96037fe/n245-eng.pdf
Many thanks! very helpful. The TPDO has been returned from the bank,
showing 3 accounts at £0 and total secured just under £7k . Does that
mean the £7k will go to the creditor, leaving ~£6k to pay, one way or
the other?
One final point, can the debtor be forced to cash in some of his private
pension if he has one?
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Simon Parker
2024-11-18 14:06:25 UTC
Reply
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Post by TTman
Post by TTman
Very useful, many thanks.The debtor has already filed a 'poverty'
claim...:-"application for suspension ofa warrant or variation of an order."
That could prove very useful to you.  I assume the original order was
to pay the amount owed plus costs as a single payment?
Yes
As expected. Remember that this order is the one he has applied to have
varied with obvious ramifications should the variation be granted.
Post by TTman
The "Application for suspension of a warrant and/or variation of an
order", form N245 - a copy of which I've linked below [^1], includes a
lot of information about the judgment debtor's financial position.
For example, (assuming self-employed rather than salaried employee),
annual turnover, whether or not they are in arrears with HMRC,
contracts and other work on hand, sums due for work done, bank
balance, savings, property ownership, full income details (including
pensions), expenses, priority debts, existing court orders, credit
debts and, perhaps most importantly, their offer of payment.
I say this last one is perhaps most important as a copy of the N245 is
sent to the judgment creditor, (i.e you) along with form N246.  Upon
(1) Accept the granting of the order;
(2) Agree to the variation order being granted but object to the
amount being offered; or
(3) Object entirely to the granting of the variation order.
For options 2 and 3 you will be asked to provide details of your
objection(s).
My friend is objecting entirely. There is a court hearing scheduled for
December
Excellent.
Post by TTman
If you can demonstrate the judgment debtor has, or is attempting to,
mislead the court on their N245, this is your opportunity to do so.
He is... claiming he is in lodgings in an industrial estate . Among
other things, claiming for gas yet there is no gas on the estate and the
landlord has no knowledge of the debtor.
Key question: Was the £7K or so identified by the TPDO included on the
details provided on the N245?
Post by TTman
Similarly, you may ask for further details of existing debt repayments
to determine when they end which may allow the amount proffered under
the order to be increased at that time.
In any event, options 2 or 3 may lead to a hearing at which you and
the judgment debtor can state your respective cases or the matter may
be determined on the papers only.
You must return the N246 within within 14 days.  If you fail to do
this, the court will make an order varying their original order to the
new terms as requested by the judgment debtor.
Forms returned.
Good.
Post by TTman
Post by TTman
It is onerous/suspicious that the date on his application is the
exact same date that my friend submitted her TPDO to the local county
court.
How did he find out about the TPDO?
It is likely to be entirely coincidental.
When an application for a Third Party Debt Order (TPDO) is received,
court staff issue the application and refer it to a judge and if the
judge is satisfied with the information provided they will make an
interim TPDO.
This is sent to both the applicant and the third party by first class post.
A copy is only sent to the debtor 7 days after it has been sent to the
third party to ensure the third party can 'freeze' the money before
the debtor learns of the order.
[^1] https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/
media/5e4cf8e686650c10e96037fe/n245-eng.pdf
Many thanks! very helpful. The TPDO has been returned from the bank,
showing 3 accounts at £0 and total secured just under £7k . Does that
mean the £7k will go to the creditor, leaving ~£6k to pay, one way or
the other?
Not necessarily. There is an outstanding application to vary the order
that needs to be dealt with. It is possible to ask that the £7K goes to
the judgment creditor leaving the judgment debtor to pay the remaining
£6K or so per their requested variation. It is for the court to decide.
Post by TTman
One final point, can the debtor be forced to cash in some of his private
pension if he has one?
It depends on the type of pension, whether draw downs are permitted etc.
But it is certainly not beyond the realms of possibility.

Was the pension declared on the N245?

Regards

S.P.
TTman
2024-11-18 22:34:43 UTC
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SNIP
Key question:  Was the £7K or so identified by the TPDO included on the
details provided on the N245?
No mention of that on the 245 by the debtor.
Not necessarily.  There is an outstanding application to vary the order
that needs to be dealt with.  It is possible to ask that the £7K goes to
the judgment creditor leaving the judgment debtor to pay the remaining
£6K or so per their requested variation.  It is for the court to decide.
Agreed. From our research, it appears the debtor /his company is turning
over in the order of £100k/month yet on his 245 he says he has sight of
£28k in 4 months. The fool's SIL has posted on FB every install-
averaging 20 per month from July to current date. When the creditor
presents that to the Judge, I think she will take a dim view of the
debtors answers.... £16,000 salary when he's turning over 100k? I don't
think so...
Post by TTman
One final point, can the debtor be forced to cash in some of his
private pension if he has one?
It depends on the type of pension, whether draw downs are permitted etc.
 But it is certainly not beyond the realms of possibility.
Was the pension declared on the N245?
Yes it was, but it doesn't say if it's private or state. £570 p/m.
Not a lot for state pension which should be ~£1k if fully paid up with
max contributions given he is 69 yrs old.
Regards
S.P.
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Simon Parker
2024-11-20 16:32:57 UTC
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Post by TTman
SNIP
Key question:  Was the £7K or so identified by the TPDO included on
the details provided on the N245?
No mention of that on the 245 by the debtor.
Then I recommend bringing that to the court's attention as a matter of
urgency. (In your shoes, I'd visit them, if close enough, or telephone
if not.)
Post by TTman
Not necessarily.  There is an outstanding application to vary the
order that needs to be dealt with.  It is possible to ask that the £7K
goes to the judgment creditor leaving the judgment debtor to pay the
remaining £6K or so per their requested variation.  It is for the
court to decide.
Agreed. From our research, it appears the debtor /his company is turning
over in the order of £100k/month yet on his 245 he says he has sight of
£28k in 4 months. The fool's SIL has posted on FB every install-
averaging 20 per month from July to current date. When the creditor
presents that to the Judge, I think she will take a dim view of the
debtors answers.... £16,000 salary when he's turning over 100k? I don't
think so...
If you haven't already done so, I recommend taking screenshots of
everything upon which you wish to rely.
Post by TTman
Post by TTman
One final point, can the debtor be forced to cash in some of his
private pension if he has one?
It depends on the type of pension, whether draw downs are permitted
etc.   But it is certainly not beyond the realms of possibility.
Was the pension declared on the N245?
Yes it was, but it doesn't say if it's private or state. £570 p/m.
Not a lot for state pension which should be ~£1k if fully paid up with
max contributions given he is 69 yrs old.
Thankfully, I am not conversant with what the state pension pays, nor do
I expect to be for some time yet. :-)

Regards

S.P.
TTman
2024-11-20 22:51:57 UTC
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Post by Simon Parker
Post by TTman
SNIP
Key question:  Was the £7K or so identified by the TPDO included on
the details provided on the N245?
No mention of that on the 245 by the debtor.
Then I recommend bringing that to the court's attention as a matter of
urgency.  (In your shoes, I'd visit them, if close enough, or telephone
if not.)
OK I'll pass that on, but my friend has submitted an EX140 + EF113
Post by Simon Parker
Post by TTman
Not necessarily.  There is an outstanding application to vary the
order that needs to be dealt with.  It is possible to ask that the
£7K goes to the judgment creditor leaving the judgment debtor to pay
the remaining £6K or so per their requested variation.  It is for the
court to decide.
Agreed. From our research, it appears the debtor /his company is
turning over in the order of £100k/month yet on his 245 he says he has
sight of £28k in 4 months. The fool's SIL has posted on FB every
install- averaging 20 per month from July to current date. When the
creditor presents that to the Judge, I think she will take a dim view
of the debtors answers.... £16,000 salary when he's turning over 100k?
I don't think so...
If you haven't already done so, I recommend taking screenshots of
everything upon which you wish to rely.
onerous as there would be 100+ over 5 months. I have however compiled a
5 /6 month spreadsheet with each month showing all of the days and
what/where he did an install. I could take a few, but they are all
readily available on his Facebook website page that details every
installation...
Post by Simon Parker
Post by TTman
Post by TTman
One final point, can the debtor be forced to cash in some of his
private pension if he has one?
It depends on the type of pension, whether draw downs are permitted
etc.   But it is certainly not beyond the realms of possibility.
Was the pension declared on the N245?
Yes it was, but it doesn't say if it's private or state. £570 p/m.
Not a lot for state pension which should be ~£1k if fully paid up with
max contributions given he is 69 yrs old.
Thankfully, I am not conversant with what the state pension pays, nor do
I expect to be for some time yet. :-)
Regards
S.P.
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Simon Parker
2024-11-21 12:47:02 UTC
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Post by TTman
Post by Simon Parker
Post by TTman
No mention of that on the 245 by the debtor.
Then I recommend bringing that to the court's attention as a matter of
urgency.  (In your shoes, I'd visit them, if close enough, or
telephone if not.)
OK I'll pass that on, but my friend has submitted an EX140 + EF113
I strongly recommend bringing the matter to the attention of the court
at the earliest possible opportunity and certainly well in advance of
any hearing(s).

And, as I've said previously, your friend has likely submitted an N316
which requires the judgment debtor to complete an EX140. A judgment
creditor cannot "submit an EX140". :-) (Please note the smiley. But I
feel it necessary to make the point as precision of language is
imperative in the circumstances in which your friend finds herself.)
Post by TTman
Post by Simon Parker
Post by TTman
Agreed. From our research, it appears the debtor /his company is
turning over in the order of £100k/month yet on his 245 he says he
has sight of £28k in 4 months. The fool's SIL has posted on FB every
install- averaging 20 per month from July to current date. When the
creditor presents that to the Judge, I think she will take a dim view
of the debtors answers.... £16,000 salary when he's turning over
100k? I don't think so...
If you haven't already done so, I recommend taking screenshots of
everything upon which you wish to rely.
onerous as there would be 100+ over 5 months. I have however compiled a
5 /6 month spreadsheet with each month showing all of the days and what/
where he did an install. I could take a few, but they are all readily
available on his Facebook website page that details every installation...
Assuming 10 seconds per screenshot, that's less than 20 minutes' worth
of work. In a claim for over £10,000 I would not consider 20 minutes to
gather key evidence to be "onerous". YMMV.

I would not be surprised if the judgment debtor takes down the Facebook
page prior to the hearing and when you are unable to evidence the data
in the spreadsheet in court, it is dismissed.

Your friend is clearly dealing with an evasive debtor that is willing to
mislead the court. Dropping a Facebook account for a day or two is
neither difficult nor beyond the realms of possibility.

The judgment debtor is now aware of the TPDO application and hearing.
They will shortly become aware of the N316 application. If they haven't
already figured it out, then they will soon realise that their usual
evasions are not working with your friend. My experience is that they
will double-down and up their game rather than fold.

My advice to your friend would be to take nothing for granted and, as
far as practicable, prepare for every eventuality.

I have probably seen (nearly) every trick in the book from evasive
debtors and the lengths to which some would, on occasion, go to evade
their responsibilities were breathtaking. (Perhaps the most extreme
example we encountered was a judgment debtor that spent more in
fabricating evidence to support their claims than was being claimed by
the judgment creditor. And it was not just wily individuals that
engaged in this behaviour. A major finance institution "reconstituted"
a "facsimile" document which included a copy of the claimant's signature
despite the claimant never having seen the document much less signed it.
(Not least because the document did not exist in the form in which it
was presented to the court at the date it was allegedly 'signed'.))

I repeat: Take nothing for granted and expect the unexpected.

Regards

S.P.
TTman
2024-11-21 23:13:18 UTC
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Post by Simon Parker
Post by TTman
Post by Simon Parker
Post by TTman
No mention of that on the 245 by the debtor.
Then I recommend bringing that to the court's attention as a matter
of urgency.  (In your shoes, I'd visit them, if close enough, or
telephone if not.)
OK I'll pass that on, but my friend has submitted an EX140 + EF113
I strongly recommend bringing the matter to the attention of the court
at the earliest possible opportunity and certainly well in advance of
any hearing(s).
And, as I've said previously, your friend has likely submitted an N316
which requires the judgment debtor to complete an EX140.  A judgment
creditor cannot "submit an EX140". :-)  (Please note the smiley.  But I
feel it necessary to make the point as precision of language is
imperative in the circumstances in which your friend finds herself.)
At our meeting toady, she clarified that she has done exactly as you
say- filed the 316.
Post by Simon Parker
Post by TTman
Post by Simon Parker
Post by TTman
Agreed. From our research, it appears the debtor /his company is
turning over in the order of £100k/month yet on his 245 he says he
has sight of £28k in 4 months. The fool's SIL has posted on FB every
install- averaging 20 per month from July to current date. When the
creditor presents that to the Judge, I think she will take a dim
view of the debtors answers.... £16,000 salary when he's turning
over 100k? I don't think so...
If you haven't already done so, I recommend taking screenshots of
everything upon which you wish to rely.
My friend has taken endless screenshots of the installs and I have
filled out a spreadsheet with installation dates and locations.
Post by Simon Parker
Post by TTman
onerous as there would be 100+ over 5 months. I have however compiled
a 5 /6 month spreadsheet with each month showing all of the days and
what/ where he did an install. I could take a few, but they are all
readily available on his Facebook website page that details every
installation...
Assuming 10 seconds per screenshot, that's less than 20 minutes' worth
of work.  In a claim for over £10,000 I would not consider 20 minutes to
gather key evidence to be "onerous".  YMMV.
Correct- she's taken the time to do as you suggested. My bad.
Post by Simon Parker
I would not be surprised if the judgment debtor takes down the Facebook
page prior to the hearing and when you are unable to evidence the data
in the spreadsheet in court, it is dismissed.
It's the debtor's close relative that posts on FB.( he does the
installs) and whilst he seems quite tech savvy, I know him to be of less
than average intelligence ( personal encounter in 2020) . They have no
idea of what we are up to by way of evidence gathering. ( If it were a
website - 'a good one'- there would be a list of IP addresses of
visitors.It's not the case for a FB 'traders' page.)
Post by Simon Parker
Your friend is clearly dealing with an evasive debtor that is willing to
mislead the court.  Dropping a Facebook account for a day or two is
neither difficult nor beyond the realms of possibility.
The judgment debtor is now aware of the TPDO application and hearing.
They will shortly become aware of the N316 application.  If they haven't
already figured it out, then they will soon realise that their usual
evasions are not working with your friend.  My experience is that they
will double-down and up their game rather than fold.
I think it's too late for them to close the stable door...
Post by Simon Parker
My advice to your friend would be to take nothing for granted and, as
far as practicable, prepare for every eventuality.
She seems a worthy advocate/opponent.We are of the opinion that when it
comes to responding to the 140, he might consider thowing in the towel
and paying up...There is way too much information on that form that he
will not be happy disclosing.
Post by Simon Parker
I have probably seen (nearly) every trick in the book from evasive
debtors and the lengths to which some would, on occasion, go to evade
their responsibilities were breathtaking.  (Perhaps the most extreme
example we encountered was a judgment debtor that spent more in
fabricating evidence to support their claims than was being claimed by
the judgment creditor.  And it was not just wily individuals that
engaged in this behaviour.  A major finance institution "reconstituted"
a "facsimile" document which included a copy of the claimant's signature
despite the claimant never having seen the document much less signed it.
 (Not least because the document did not exist in the form in which it
was presented to the court at the date it was allegedly 'signed'.))
I repeat: Take nothing for granted and expect the unexpected.
Thanks again for your valuable advice.We have now made contact with
another creditor lady who somehow managed to get a default judgement
against him back in late last year. He requested a 14 day delay in
responding to the MCOL claim and then did nothing so the Judge awarded a
default judgement in her favour. There is an unsatisfied CCJ against
him. That is how my fried found out about it when she did a CCJ
search...We will be helping her chase her £5k...
Post by Simon Parker
Regards
S.P.
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TTman
2024-11-15 10:31:27 UTC
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Snip
Post by Simon Parker
It is likely to be entirely coincidental.
When an application for a Third Party Debt Order (TPDO) is received,
court staff issue the application and refer it to a judge and if the
judge is satisfied with the information provided they will make an
interim TPDO.
This is sent to both the applicant and the third party by first class post.
A copy is only sent to the debtor 7 days after it has been sent to the
third party to ensure the third party can 'freeze' the money before the
debtor learns of the order.
Regards
S.P.
[^1] https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/
media/5e4cf8e686650c10e96037fe/n245-eng.pdf
My friend has asked me to ask here " is it worth pursuing by way of N316"
My best guess is yes, given the debtor's undoubted propensity for lying
to the court at every opportunity.e.g. From his web page, he shows every
installation. Over the last 4 months, he has an average install of 20
per month. At £3 to 4k average, that's a lot of turnover. In his
Warrant,he claims that his turnover for the next 4 months is £28k ! He
claims his income is £16k per anum.
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GB
2024-11-15 15:54:26 UTC
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He claims his income is £16k per anum.
Does he say how much he gets through other orifices?

(Sorry, I must try harder to resist!)
TTman
2024-11-15 22:28:54 UTC
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Post by GB
 He claims his income is £16k per anum.
Does he say how much he gets through other orifices?
(Sorry, I must try harder to resist!)
I/we estimate his companies income ( sole trader xy T/A z)to be in the
region of £80-100k. As the 'boss' and sole salesman, I would expect his
income ( with added commision) to be well in excess of his stated £16k.
You can get more money shelf filling in a supermarket on minimum wage
~£24k. A salesman generating £100k of business per month only earning
£16k? He's taking the pi**
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Simon Parker
2024-11-18 14:11:56 UTC
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Post by TTman
Snip
Post by Simon Parker
It is likely to be entirely coincidental.
When an application for a Third Party Debt Order (TPDO) is received,
court staff issue the application and refer it to a judge and if the
judge is satisfied with the information provided they will make an
interim TPDO.
This is sent to both the applicant and the third party by first class post.
A copy is only sent to the debtor 7 days after it has been sent to the
third party to ensure the third party can 'freeze' the money before
the debtor learns of the order.
[^1] https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/
media/5e4cf8e686650c10e96037fe/n245-eng.pdf
My friend has asked me to ask here " is it worth pursuing by way of N316"
My best guess is yes, given the debtor's undoubted propensity for lying
to the court at every opportunity.e.g. From his web page, he shows every
installation. Over the last 4 months, he has an average install of 20
per month. At £3 to 4k average, that's a lot of turnover. In his
Warrant,he claims that his turnover for the next 4 months is £28k ! He
claims his income is £16k per anum.
If you can *prove*, (and I mean prove in a court of law, not allege - so
you need evidence, not conjecture), that he has not completed the N245
truthfully that would be a very serious issue.

For example, you mentioned an amount for gas despite there being no
mains gas at the premises. This is not proof of anything (other than
that the premises doesn't have mains gas and only that if you have
something to adduce to support this). It is possible that he is using
bottled gas so the fact it has no mains gas doesn't prove that he isn't
spending £40 on gas - it may just be that he is spending it on bottled
gas. A statement from the landlord saying that there is no tenancy
would be useful or that he is not the named tenant and sub-letting is
prohibited. Similarly, a copy of the lease would be useful if it
contains a clause forbidding residing in the premises.

You should certainly ask for an explanation as to where the £12K
difference between turnover and income is going. Similarly, if he is
averaging 20 installations per month YTD, why is it dropping so
dramatically over the next four months and will it stay at this lower
level beyond the four months or return to the current level?

I've asked in a parallel post about the money uncovered by the TPDO and
the pension and whether or not these were detailed on the N245.

If they were not included, I would telephone the court and explain that
you believe the N245 has not been completed accurately and ask if they
will permit a N316 to be served and consolidated into the existing
hearing in December under CPR Part 3.1(h).

As I'm sure you know, an N316 requires him to file evidence to support
the figures claimed, not just pluck them at random from the air. In the
absence of filing an N316, you could ask the court (when telephoning
them as above) if they will consider asking that he evidences the
figures stated on the N245 which puts you in a stronger position and
almost where you'd be with an N316.

Another angle to try: If you input the figures stated on the N245 into a
"benefits calculator" [^1], does it show that he qualifies for benefits?
If it does, has he applied for benefits and are they included on the
form? If he hasn't applied for them, why not? If he's applied for them
but not stated them on the form, why not?

I recommend looking at every angle and being prepared with suitable
evidence to show that his claims do not stack up.

Regards

S.P.

[^1] For example this one by Turn2Us:
https://benefits-calculator.turn2us.org.uk/
TTman
2024-11-18 23:08:30 UTC
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Post by Simon Parker
Post by TTman
My friend has asked me to ask here " is it worth pursuing by way of N316"
My best guess is yes, given the debtor's undoubted propensity for
lying to the court at every opportunity.e.g. From his web page, he
shows every installation. Over the last 4 months, he has an average
install of 20 per month. At £3 to 4k average, that's a lot of
turnover. In his Warrant,he claims that his turnover for the next 4
months is £28k ! He claims his income is £16k per anum.
If you can *prove*, (and I mean prove in a court of law, not allege - so
you need evidence, not conjecture), that he has not completed the N245
truthfully that would be a very serious issue.
(see my other reply to you). I'm certain my friend can prove his income
is grossly underestimated.However, there is a subtle difference betwen
turnover and salary drawn...
Post by Simon Parker
For example, you mentioned an amount for gas despite there being no
mains gas at the premises.  This is not proof of anything (other than
that the premises doesn't have mains gas and only that if you have
something to adduce to support this).  It is possible that he is using
bottled gas so the fact it has no mains gas doesn't prove that he isn't
spending £40 on gas - it may just be that he is spending it on bottled
gas.  A statement from the landlord saying that there is no tenancy
would be useful or that he is not the named tenant and sub-letting is
prohibited.  Similarly, a copy of the lease would be useful if it
contains a clause forbidding residing in the premises.
The landlord has confirmed to the claimant that the debtor does not
reside at the address given in the 245 and he has state he would come to
court to affirm. I would assume a headed letter confirming this would be
enough. The sole purpose of the debtor giving this false address ( in
our opinion) is to avoid the claimant ( or anyone else) discovering his
true address - we concede that a high court enforcement agent would have
little trouble given their resources...
Post by Simon Parker
You should certainly ask for an explanation as to where the £12K
difference between turnover and income is going.  Similarly, if he is
averaging 20 installations per month YTD, why is it dropping so
dramatically over the next four months and will it stay at this lower
level beyond the four months or return to the current level?
Quite. I guess he thinks we're fools, along with the Judge.To be clear,
he states his annual salary is £16k. Yet he states the following 4
months t/o is 28k. My guess is his gross profit is 30-60%
Post by Simon Parker
I've asked in a parallel post about the money uncovered by the TPDO and
the pension and whether or not these were detailed on the N245.
The TPDO was not included. At the time, I don't think he was aware of
it, but I can't be sure. At a guess , I would think he was trying to
offer £250 per month towards the whole debt of ~£13k
Post by Simon Parker
If they were not included, I would telephone the court and explain that
you believe the N245 has not been completed accurately and ask if they
will permit a N316 to be served and consolidated into the existing
hearing in December under CPR Part 3.1(h).
I'll pass that possibility onto the creditor. She has already asked if
she should do that.
Post by Simon Parker
As I'm sure you know, an N316 requires him to file evidence to support
the figures claimed, not just pluck them at random from the air.  In the
absence of filing an N316, you could ask the court (when telephoning
them as above) if they will consider asking that he evidences the
figures stated on the N245 which puts you in a stronger position and
almost where you'd be with an N316.
I'll suggest that too, thx.
p.s. We know his average lead time from contract signing to installation
is in the order of 12 weeks.At the time he filed the 245, he had ~30+
installations in hand.That is from the 3rd October up until today. 6
weeks prior to filing the 245, he may well have had 50-60 installs in
hand- signed contracts.
Post by Simon Parker
Another angle to try: If you input the figures stated on the N245 into a
"benefits calculator" [^1], does it show that he qualifies for benefits?
 If it does, has he applied for benefits and are they included on the
form?  If he hasn't applied for them, why not?  If he's applied for them
but not stated them on the form, why not?
Given what we think is his real income, I doubt whether he would be
minded to commit benefit fraud.There's also the question of what did he
do with the 340k proceeds from the sale of his house.
I think the posts on FB detailing every install and the date/location of
the install will be totally to the creditors favour. All that money must
be going somewhere....
I wish to offer my thanks for your valuable input here.( and others)

PPS I sued him back in 2020 for breach of contract and won hands down.
He shot himself with his never ending lies. The Judge slated him for not
having a contact address on his contract form as it was an 'out of
office' contract. That alone, the judge told him, was an absolute breach
of contract on its own. I didn't know that at the time.
Post by Simon Parker
I recommend looking at every angle and being prepared with suitable
evidence to show that his claims do not stack up.
Regards
S.P.
[^1] For example this one by Turn2Us: https://benefits-
calculator.turn2us.org.uk/
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Jon Ribbens
2024-11-19 09:53:38 UTC
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Post by TTman
PPS I sued him back in 2020 for breach of contract and won hands down.
He shot himself with his never ending lies. The Judge slated him for not
having a contact address on his contract form as it was an 'out of
office' contract. That alone, the judge told him, was an absolute breach
of contract on its own. I didn't know that at the time.
Not having an address on a contract isn't an "absolute breach of
contract" in general. But by the sounds of it I would guess that what
the judge was referring to was The Consumer Contracts (Information,
Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013, which imply
terms into contracts that consumers agree to during a visit to their
home by a trader or over the phone etc.

These include obligations for the trader to notify the consumer of
things like their identity and physical trading address, and their
right to cancel the contract. Failure to follow them is not just a
breach of contract but also a criminal offence, so if they got away
with merely losing a civil case then they might consider themselves
lucky.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/contents
TTman
2024-11-19 12:51:37 UTC
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Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by TTman
PPS I sued him back in 2020 for breach of contract and won hands down.
He shot himself with his never ending lies. The Judge slated him for not
having a contact address on his contract form as it was an 'out of
office' contract. That alone, the judge told him, was an absolute breach
of contract on its own. I didn't know that at the time.
Not having an address on a contract isn't an "absolute breach of
contract" in general. But by the sounds of it I would guess that what
the judge was referring to was The Consumer Contracts (Information,
Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013, which imply
terms into contracts that consumers agree to during a visit to their
home by a trader or over the phone etc.
These include obligations for the trader to notify the consumer of
things like their identity and physical trading address, and their
right to cancel the contract. Failure to follow them is not just a
breach of contract but also a criminal offence, so if they got away
with merely losing a civil case then they might consider themselves
lucky.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/contents
I remember now, the judge quoted section 10... AFAIK, the debtor is
still using an old trading address on his contracts.Hard to find out.The
same address that he gave on his 245 form! Despite my ( and others)
complaints to Trading Standards, they're not intersted and direct us to
Citizens Advice. FFS.
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Simon Parker
2024-11-20 16:38:46 UTC
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Post by TTman
Post by Simon Parker
Post by TTman
My friend has asked me to ask here " is it worth pursuing by way of N316"
My best guess is yes, given the debtor's undoubted propensity for
lying to the court at every opportunity.e.g. From his web page, he
shows every installation. Over the last 4 months, he has an average
install of 20 per month. At £3 to 4k average, that's a lot of
turnover. In his Warrant,he claims that his turnover for the next 4
months is £28k ! He claims his income is £16k per anum.
If you can *prove*, (and I mean prove in a court of law, not allege -
so you need evidence, not conjecture), that he has not completed the
N245 truthfully that would be a very serious issue.
(see my other reply to you). I'm certain my friend can prove his income
is grossly underestimated.However, there is a subtle difference betwen
turnover and salary drawn...
It is expected that the N245 is completed accurately and truthfully. As
you can demonstrate without question that this has not happened, (by
virtue of the undeclared £7K uncovered by the TPDO without evidencing
your other suspicions), I expect the court would look favourably upon an
application to serve an N316 requesting evidence for the claimed figures
as previously advised.

Failing that, an application for evidence to support the figures claimed
on the N245 (similar to what is expected on the N316).

Ideally, the judgment debtor would have included any and all relevant
evidence along with their N245 but it does no harm to ask the court to
order the judgment debtor to provide evidence in support of their N245
application.
Post by TTman
Post by Simon Parker
For example, you mentioned an amount for gas despite there being no
mains gas at the premises.  This is not proof of anything (other than
that the premises doesn't have mains gas and only that if you have
something to adduce to support this).  It is possible that he is using
bottled gas so the fact it has no mains gas doesn't prove that he
isn't spending £40 on gas - it may just be that he is spending it on
bottled gas.  A statement from the landlord saying that there is no
tenancy would be useful or that he is not the named tenant and sub-
letting is prohibited.  Similarly, a copy of the lease would be useful
if it contains a clause forbidding residing in the premises.
The landlord has confirmed to the claimant that the debtor  does not
reside at the address given in the 245 and he has state he would come to
court to affirm. I would assume a headed letter confirming this would be
enough. The sole purpose of the debtor giving this false address ( in
our opinion) is to avoid the claimant ( or anyone else) discovering his
true address - we concede that a high court enforcement agent would have
little trouble given their resources...
Evidence in support of an N245 application, or in response to an N316,
would require that the tenancy agreement be adduced to support the claim
for rent being paid to a landlord. A letter from the landlord, on
official company letterheaded paper, preferably with the company seal
affixed, stating that the judgment debtor does not have a tenancy in
place to reside at the address given would strengthen the request to
serve an N316 prior to the hearing for the N245, or for further and
better evidence to be adduced in support of the N245 application.

Personally, at the forthcoming hearing I would also ask the court to
order that the judgment debtor provide an address for service and
enforcement (if different), backed by production of a Council Tax bill
and Utility bill in the judgment debtor's name.
Post by TTman
Post by Simon Parker
You should certainly ask for an explanation as to where the £12K
difference between turnover and income is going.  Similarly, if he is
averaging 20 installations per month YTD, why is it dropping so
dramatically over the next four months and will it stay at this lower
level beyond the four months or return to the current level?
Quite. I guess he thinks we're fools, along with the Judge.To be clear,
he states his annual salary is £16k. Yet he states the following 4
months t/o is 28k. My guess is his gross profit is 30-60%
I suspect he is in for a rude awakening, both from the TPDO and from the
forthcoming hearing for the his N245 application, (or possibly your N316).

Prior to that hearing, and in the absence of the judgment debtor filing
any paperwork associated with the TPDO, I would proceed with the TPDO as
a separate process and seek to obtain the £7K regardless, with the
court's permission, of course.
Post by TTman
Post by Simon Parker
I've asked in a parallel post about the money uncovered by the TPDO
and the pension and whether or not these were detailed on the N245.
The TPDO was not included. At the time, I don't think he was aware of
it, but I can't be sure. At a guess , I would think he was trying to
offer £250 per month towards the whole debt of ~£13k
As above, I would try and move the TPDO forward independent of the
hearing for the N245 application and would hope, in the circumstances,
that the court would allow this.
Post by TTman
Post by Simon Parker
If they were not included, I would telephone the court and explain
that you believe the N245 has not been completed accurately and ask if
they will permit a N316 to be served and consolidated into the
existing hearing in December under CPR Part 3.1(h).
I'll pass that possibility onto the creditor. She has already asked if
she should do that.
Definitely. This might have just turned a civil matter into a criminal one.

Section 12 of N245 is a declaration that the judgment debtor has
provided details that are true to the best of their knowledge.

Making a knowingly false declaration to a court is a serious matter.

And someone claiming to be on the breadline "forgetting" about £6K in a
bank account is not reasonable to me, and I would expect a court to be
of a similar opinion.
Post by TTman
Post by Simon Parker
As I'm sure you know, an N316 requires him to file evidence to support
the figures claimed, not just pluck them at random from the air.  In
the absence of filing an N316, you could ask the court (when
telephoning them as above) if they will consider asking that he
evidences the figures stated on the N245 which puts you in a stronger
position and almost where you'd be with an N316.
I'll suggest that too, thx.
You're welcome. Multi-pronged approaches in cases like this can be
useful, as I've hopefully detailed.
Post by TTman
p.s. We know his average lead time from contract signing to installation
is in the order of 12 weeks.At the time he filed the 245, he had ~30+
installations in hand.That is from the 3rd October up until today. 6
weeks prior to filing the 245, he may well have had 50-60 installs in
hand- signed contracts.
I recommend bringing any and all facts you deem pertinent to the case,
and in particular the N245 application, to the attention of the court
along with supporting evidence.
Post by TTman
Post by Simon Parker
Another angle to try: If you input the figures stated on the N245 into
a "benefits calculator" [^1], does it show that he qualifies for
benefits?   If it does, has he applied for benefits and are they
included on the form?  If he hasn't applied for them, why not?  If
he's applied for them but not stated them on the form, why not?
Given what we think is his real income, I doubt whether he would be
minded to commit benefit fraud.There's also the question of what did he
do with the 340k proceeds from the sale of his house.
It is incumbent upon the judgment debtor to take reasonable steps to
satisfy the debt. If he qualifies for benefits and is not claiming
them, he should be asked to explain to the court why he isn't claiming
money to which he is entitled so as to permit him to discharge the debt
more quickly.

If, as is suspected, the reason for not claiming benefits is because the
claimed income bears no relation to his actual income then gentle
probing in court ought to make this clear.

Hence my recommendation to use a benefits calculator to see if the
figures on the N245 would mean he qualifies for benefits.

You are looking to evidence that he is not being truthful through the
cumulative effect of numerous incidents rather than with a single
smoking gun.
Post by TTman
I think the posts on FB detailing every install and the date/location of
the install will be totally to the creditors favour. All that money must
be going somewhere....
As previously suggested, I recommend taking screenshots of these posts
sooner rather than later.
Post by TTman
I wish to offer my thanks for your valuable input here.( and others)
The newsgroup appears to be fulfilling a key purpose for which it was
setup. :-)
Post by TTman
PPS I sued him back in 2020 for breach of contract and won hands down.
He shot himself with his never ending lies. The Judge slated him for not
having  a contact address on his contract form as it was an 'out of
office' contract. That alone, the judge told him, was an absolute breach
of contract on its own. I didn't know that at the time.
Jon Ribbens has covered this excellently in his replies to this specific
point and I have nothing useful to add to what he has said.

Regards

S.P.
TTman
2024-11-20 16:17:22 UTC
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Snip
Post by Simon Parker
I've asked in a parallel post about the money uncovered by the TPDO and
the pension and whether or not these were detailed on the N245.
If they were not included, I would telephone the court and explain that
you believe the N245 has not been completed accurately and ask if they
will permit a N316 to be served and consolidated into the existing
hearing in December under CPR Part 3.1(h).
As I'm sure you know, an N316 requires him to file evidence to support
the figures claimed, not just pluck them at random from the air.  In the
absence of filing an N316, you could ask the court (when telephoning
them as above) if they will consider asking that he evidences the
figures stated on the N245 which puts you in a stronger position and
almost where you'd be with an N316.
Another angle to try: If you input the figures stated on the N245 into a
"benefits calculator" [^1], does it show that he qualifies for benefits?
 If it does, has he applied for benefits and are they included on the
form?  If he hasn't applied for them, why not?  If he's applied for them
but not stated them on the form, why not?
I recommend looking at every angle and being prepared with suitable
evidence to show that his claims do not stack up.
Regards
S.P.
[^1] For example this one by Turn2Us: https://benefits-
calculator.turn2us.org.uk/
My friend has just submitted EX140. When it is complete and examined by
a court officer ( + the extra questions she wants answers to) , Does she
get to see the completed form or is it 'private' ?
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Simon Parker
2024-11-20 17:07:58 UTC
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On 20/11/2024 16:17, TTman wrote:
[...]
Post by TTman
My friend has just submitted EX140. When it is complete and examined by
a court officer ( + the extra questions she wants answers to) , Does she
get to see the completed form or is it 'private' ?
I'm confused. EX140 is typically to be completed by a judgment debtor
in response to an N316 application.

Your friend is the the judgment creditor, not the judgment debtor.

What process has your friend used to "submit" an EX140 to the judgment
debtor? Was it via an N316 application and, if so, do they ask for it
to be adjoined to the existing N245 hearing?

Usually, an EX140 is completed at an oral hearing with the court asking
the questions on the EX140 of the judgment debtor and then forwarding
the completed form to the judgment creditor so that they may determine
the most appropriate means of enforcing their debt.

At the moment, the original "forthwith" order in still in effect unless
and until it is varied, which is the purpose of the forthcoming N245
hearing.

Which is itself separate from the TPDO (N349 in "Form Speak") which has
been served and is now awaiting finalising at a hearing.

Does your friend have a date for the hearing related to the TPDO and is
it before or after the date for the hearing for the N245?

Regards

S.P.
TTman
2024-11-20 22:59:08 UTC
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[...]
Post by TTman
My friend has just submitted EX140. When it is complete and examined
by a court officer ( + the extra questions she wants answers to) ,
Does she get to see the completed form or is it 'private' ?
I'm confused.  EX140 is typically to be completed by a judgment debtor
in response to an N316 application.
Your friend is the the judgment creditor, not the judgment debtor.
What process has your friend used to "submit" an EX140 to the judgment
debtor?  Was it via an N316 application and, if so, do they ask for it
to be adjoined to the existing N245 hearing?
Usually, an EX140 is completed at an oral hearing with the court asking
the questions on the EX140 of the judgment debtor and then forwarding
the completed form to the judgment creditor so that they may determine
the most appropriate means of enforcing their debt.
At the moment, the original "forthwith" order in still in effect unless
and until it is varied, which is the purpose of the forthcoming N245
hearing.
Which is itself separate from the TPDO (N349 in "Form Speak") which has
been served and is now awaiting finalising at a hearing.
Does your friend have a date for the hearing related to the TPDO and is
it before or after the date for the hearing for the N245?
Regards
S.P.
I'll forward this to her... I think she might not quite know the
procedure re EX140 ( neither do I) but you have made it clear.The only
date I know of is for the ITPDO on 12th Dec
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TTman
2024-11-20 23:10:52 UTC
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[...]
Post by TTman
My friend has just submitted EX140. When it is complete and examined
by a court officer ( + the extra questions she wants answers to) ,
Does she get to see the completed form or is it 'private' ?
I'm confused.  EX140 is typically to be completed by a judgment debtor
in response to an N316 application.
Your friend is the the judgment creditor, not the judgment debtor.
What process has your friend used to "submit" an EX140 to the judgment
debtor?  Was it via an N316 application and, if so, do they ask for it
to be adjoined to the existing N245 hearing?
Usually, an EX140 is completed at an oral hearing with the court asking
the questions on the EX140 of the judgment debtor and then forwarding
the completed form to the judgment creditor so that they may determine
the most appropriate means of enforcing their debt.
At the moment, the original "forthwith" order in still in effect unless
and until it is varied, which is the purpose of the forthcoming N245
hearing.
Which is itself separate from the TPDO (N349 in "Form Speak") which has
been served and is now awaiting finalising at a hearing.
Does your friend have a date for the hearing related to the TPDO and is
it before or after the date for the hearing for the N245?
Regards
S.P.
Clarification- she has submitted the 316 and knows the court will do the
EX140.The court is hearing the TPDO and the 245 together. I'm meeting
with her tomorrow to discuss court strategy- bigging him up', leading
him to a false sense of security, then comes the 'tricky' questions and
his truthfulness of the replies in the 245. Bring it on.
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Simon Parker
2024-11-21 12:50:49 UTC
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Post by TTman
Post by TTman
My friend has just submitted EX140. When it is complete and examined
by a court officer ( + the extra questions she wants answers to) ,
Does she get to see the completed form or is it 'private' ?
I'm confused.  EX140 is typically to be completed by a judgment debtor
in response to an N316 application.
Your friend is the the judgment creditor, not the judgment debtor.
What process has your friend used to "submit" an EX140 to the judgment
debtor?  Was it via an N316 application and, if so, do they ask for it
to be adjoined to the existing N245 hearing?
Usually, an EX140 is completed at an oral hearing with the court
asking the questions on the EX140 of the judgment debtor and then
forwarding the completed form to the judgment creditor so that they
may determine the most appropriate means of enforcing their debt.
At the moment, the original "forthwith" order in still in effect
unless and until it is varied, which is the purpose of the forthcoming
N245 hearing.
Which is itself separate from the TPDO (N349 in "Form Speak") which
has been served and is now awaiting finalising at a hearing.
Does your friend have a date for the hearing related to the TPDO and
is it before or after the date for the hearing for the N245?
Clarification- she has submitted the 316 and knows the court will do the
EX140.The court is hearing the TPDO and the 245 together. I'm meeting
with her tomorrow to discuss court strategy- bigging him up', leading
him to a false sense of security, then comes the 'tricky' questions and
his truthfulness of the replies in the 245. Bring it on.
First and foremost, I feel the need to clarify that it will be a court
officer asking the questions that form the Record of Examination
(Individual) (i.e. the EX140), rather than your friend or their
representative.

Your friend will be able to adduce evidence and ask questions to
contradict any statements of facts entered by the judgment debtor in
their responses to the court officer.

For example, the first question asked of the judgment debtor will be to
confirm their name and address. This affords your friend the
opportunity to adduce the letter they have obtained from the owner of
the premises in which the judgment debtor claims to reside stating that
there is no tenancy in force between them and the judgment debtor for
the premises concerned and that the judgment debtor has no right to live
there (or substance thereof).

Your friend can then ask the court to repeat the request for the
judgment debtor to provide an address along with evidence that they live
there, for example a tenancy agreement or mortgage statement along with
a Council Tax bill and utility bill bearing the name of the judgment debtor.

And that's just the court's first question. :-)

Rinse and repeat for every question on the EX140. Your friend has an
advantage here because they know the precise question that will be asked
and the order of the questions so they can arrange their evidence in
advance and adduce it in sequence to demonstrate that the judgment
debtor is being evasive and may be trying to mislead the court. (There
is no need to state this. The court will come to its own conclusion
based on what it sees before it.)

Your friend will be able both to adduce evidence and to ask questions as
part of the TPDO and N245 applications too, but by that point it may be
all over for the judgment debtor if your friend has played their cards
correctly during the Examination Hearing.

As previously advised, I recommend making an application under CPR Part
3.1(h) for the N316 application to be adjoined to the existing hearing.
This ought to me done as a matter of urgency owing to the notice periods
involved. Be aware that the judgment debtor may make an application for
your friend to pay their travel expenses to attend the N316 hearing. If
your friend can have it adjoined to the N245 hearing, they have a case
for stating that they should only be liable for additional expenses
incurred and as the judgment debtor was already attending court for
their N245 application meaning there are no additional expenses for the
N316 hearing.

From a case management perspective, the ideal order would be:

(1) N316 - Record of Examination (Individual): answering and evidencing
the EX140 meaning the financial position of the judgment debtor is clear
to both the court and the judgment creditor.

(2) TPDO - unless the judgment debtor can make a compelling case to the
contrary, (which is why having completed the EX140 prior to this is in
the court's best interests as they're making orders from a position of
knowledge and clarity), your friend should ask that the interim order be
made final and the third party hand over the £7K to them.

(3) N245 - if the TPDO was finalised, the debt will have been reduced by
£7K and the evidencing (or otherwise!) of the EX140 will leave the court
in the strongest possible position to make a determination regarding the
judgment debtors N245 application.

Regards

S.P.
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