Ryanair doing away with printed boarding cards

Post by Martin Harran
Apparently they are planning to do this and move completely digital.
Are there any legal implications in this? I wonder, for example,
whether it is discrimination against older people or disabled people
for whom digital passes wouldn't really be a practical option?

I'm an "older person". I really like digital passes, I hate paper. I
loose paper, I can't easily magnify paper. I can back up my electronic
pass on one or two devices, I can enlarge it on screen to make it
whatever size I want to read it with my crap "does go to Specsavers"
eyesight.

I'm sure I'm not representative of the majority, but please stop using
"older people" as a block vote of the apparently technologically
incapable to make your point.

2025-01-17 18:05:42 UTC

I'm an "older person".

I was at a party with a group of ex-pats, none under 70, where much of
the talk was about VPNs and other fairly sophisticated technology.

Sam Plusnet

2025-01-17 18:51:09 UTC

I'm an "older person".

I was at a party with a group of ex-pats, none under 70, where much of
the talk was about VPNs and other fairly sophisticated technology.

I think ex-pats knowing (or seeking information on) VPNs amounts to a
special interest group - but for all I know OAPs who fly on Ryanair are
another special interest group.

--
Sam Plusnet

Ottavio Caruso

2025-01-18 16:29:53 UTC

I'm an "older person".

I was at a party with a group of ex-pats, none under 70, where much of
the talk was about VPNs and other fairly sophisticated technology.

Aren't expats just immigrants who refuse to learn the local language?

--
Ottavio Caruso

Nick Odell

2025-01-19 13:42:16 UTC

On Sat, 18 Jan 2025 16:29:53 +0000, Ottavio Caruso

I'm an "older person".

I was at a party with a group of ex-pats, none under 70, where much of
the talk was about VPNs and other fairly sophisticated technology.

Aren't expats just immigrants who refuse to learn the local language?

...Then you might enjoy this article by Paul Theroux in the New York
Times.
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/05/opinion/america-expat-living-abroad.html

If you don't have a subscription, try https://archive.ph/pEOwh

FWIW my rough and ready distinction between an immigrant and an expat
is that the latter can go home again any time they want.

Nick

Jethro_uk

2025-01-19 16:19:18 UTC

Post by Nick Odell
On Sat, 18 Jan 2025 16:29:53 +0000, Ottavio Caruso

I'm an "older person".

I was at a party with a group of ex-pats, none under 70, where much of
the talk was about VPNs and other fairly sophisticated technology.

Aren't expats just immigrants who refuse to learn the local language?

...Then you might enjoy this article by Paul Theroux in the New York
Times.
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/05/opinion/america-expat-living-

abroad.html

Post by Nick Odell
If you don't have a subscription, try https://archive.ph/pEOwh
FWIW my rough and ready distinction between an immigrant and an expat is
that the latter can go home again any time they want.

Well lets see how Richard Tice MP gets defined now he is splitting his
time between the UK and Dubai.

Pamela

2025-01-22 17:58:32 UTC

Post by Nick Odell
On Sat, 18 Jan 2025 16:29:53 +0000, Ottavio Caruso

Post by Martin Harran
Apparently they are planning to do this and move completely
digital. Are there any legal implications in this? I wonder, for
example, whether it is discrimination against older people or
disabled people for whom digital passes wouldn't really be a
practical option?

I'm an "older person".

I was at a party with a group of ex-pats, none under 70, where much
of the talk was about VPNs and other fairly sophisticated
technology.

Aren't expats just immigrants who refuse to learn the local
language?

...Then you might enjoy this article by Paul Theroux in the New York
Times.
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/05/opinion/america-expat-living-
abroad.html
If you don't have a subscription, try https://archive.ph/pEOwh
FWIW my rough and ready distinction between an immigrant and an expat
is that the latter can go home again any time they want.

Well lets see how Richard Tice MP gets defined now he is splitting his
time between the UK and Dubai.

No amount of video conferencing is going to overcome his lack of
presence in his constituency.

Nor will his journalist wife hear many one-on-one Westminster whispers.

This arrangement won't last long.

Jethro_uk

2025-01-23 09:28:17 UTC

Post by Nick Odell
On Sat, 18 Jan 2025 16:29:53 +0000, Ottavio Caruso

Post by Martin Harran
Apparently they are planning to do this and move completely
digital. Are there any legal implications in this? I wonder, for
example, whether it is discrimination against older people or
disabled people for whom digital passes wouldn't really be a
practical option?

I'm an "older person".

I was at a party with a group of ex-pats, none under 70, where much
of the talk was about VPNs and other fairly sophisticated
technology.

Aren't expats just immigrants who refuse to learn the local language?

...Then you might enjoy this article by Paul Theroux in the New York
Times.
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/05/opinion/america-expat-living-
abroad.html
If you don't have a subscription, try https://archive.ph/pEOwh
FWIW my rough and ready distinction between an immigrant and an expat
is that the latter can go home again any time they want.

Well lets see how Richard Tice MP gets defined now he is splitting his
time between the UK and Dubai.

No amount of video conferencing is going to overcome his lack of
presence in his constituency.

Nigel Farage seems to be doing OK

Post by Pamela
Nor will his journalist wife hear many one-on-one Westminster whispers.

Who needs facts for newspaper stories ? Especially the sort she writes.

Post by Pamela
This arrangement won't last long.

Quite. Just long enough for the "elite are fleeing" narrative to have
been planted. You are free to comment on whether their view they are "the
elite" has any basis in reality.

Roland Perry

2025-01-23 11:44:49 UTC

Post by Jethro_uk
Well lets see how Richard Tice MP gets defined now he is splitting his
time between the UK and Dubai.

No amount of video conferencing is going to overcome his lack of
presence in his constituency.

Nigel Farage seems to be doing OK

Mad Nad seemed to get away without appearing in her constituency for
about two years (allegedly).

--
Roland Perry

Jethro_uk

2025-01-23 18:24:30 UTC

Post by Jethro_uk
Well lets see how Richard Tice MP gets defined now he is splitting
his time between the UK and Dubai.

No amount of video conferencing is going to overcome his lack of
presence in his constituency.

Nigel Farage seems to be doing OK

Mad Nad seemed to get away without appearing in her constituency for
about two years (allegedly).

Exactly. When people vote for rosettes that's what happens.

Pamela

2025-01-23 20:41:50 UTC

Post by Nick Odell
On Sat, 18 Jan 2025 16:29:53 +0000, Ottavio Caruso

Post by Martin Harran
Apparently they are planning to do this and move completely
digital. Are there any legal implications in this? I wonder,
for example, whether it is discrimination against older people
or disabled people for whom digital passes wouldn't really be a
practical option?

I'm an "older person".

I was at a party with a group of ex-pats, none under 70, where
much of the talk was about VPNs and other fairly sophisticated
technology.

Aren't expats just immigrants who refuse to learn the local language?

...Then you might enjoy this article by Paul Theroux in the New
York Times.
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/05/opinion/america-expat-living-
abroad.html
If you don't have a subscription, try https://archive.ph/pEOwh
FWIW my rough and ready distinction between an immigrant and an
expat is that the latter can go home again any time they want.

Well lets see how Richard Tice MP gets defined now he is splitting
his time between the UK and Dubai.

No amount of video conferencing is going to overcome his lack of
presence in his constituency.

Nigel Farage seems to be doing OK

I wonder if Tice and Oakshott intend to be tax exiles, spending less
than so many days in the UK.

Post by Pamela
Nor will his journalist wife hear many one-on-one Westminster
whispers.

Who needs facts for newspaper stories ? Especially the sort she writes.

One may not agree with her views but Oakeshott is a well-regarded
journalist. Politics editor for Sunday Times and all that.

Jethro_uk

2025-01-24 11:48:00 UTC

[quoted text muted]

I wonder if Tice and Oakshott intend to be tax exiles, spending less
than so many days in the UK.

Presuming the answer "none" what are the implications for a non dom MP ?

Ottavio Caruso

2025-01-20 15:21:34 UTC

Post by Nick Odell
FWIW my rough and ready distinction between an immigrant and an expat
is that the latter can go home again any time they want.

What is "home"? Just your home country? I can go back to Italy whenever
I want. Does it make me an expat or am I still an immigrant?

If I am an expat, can I do away with speaking the local language?

--
Ottavio Caruso

Jon Ribbens

2025-01-20 22:47:13 UTC

Post by Nick Odell
FWIW my rough and ready distinction between an immigrant and an expat
is that the latter can go home again any time they want.

What is "home"? Just your home country? I can go back to Italy whenever
I want. Does it make me an expat or am I still an immigrant?

I'm pretty sure the difference between an "expat" and an "immigrant",
if there is one, isn't "an expat can return if they wish to a country
in which they previously lived and of which they are still a citizen,
and an immigrant can't".

Roger Hayter

2025-01-20 23:19:30 UTC

On 20 Jan 2025 at 15:21:34 GMT, "Ottavio Caruso"

Post by Nick Odell
FWIW my rough and ready distinction between an immigrant and an expat
is that the latter can go home again any time they want.

What is "home"? Just your home country? I can go back to Italy whenever
I want. Does it make me an expat or am I still an immigrant?
If I am an expat, can I do away with speaking the local language?

If you don't need to work and there are enough Italians near you for there to
be plenty of Italian shops and restaurants around, then probably. You could be
a proper ex-pat.

--
Roger Hayter

Martin Harran

2025-01-18 12:41:13 UTC

I'm an "older person". I really like digital passes, I hate paper. I
loose paper, I can't easily magnify paper. I can back up my electronic
pass on one or two devices, I can enlarge it on screen to make it
whatever size I want to read it with my crap "does go to Specsavers"
eyesight.
I'm sure I'm not representative of the majority, but please stop using
"older people" as a block vote of the apparently technologically
incapable to make your point.

I am in my 70s and highly technologically literate having done an
Applied Computing degree in my late 50s and a Masters in Computing in
my 60s so I am well aware that some older people are very competent in
this stuff. IME, however, older people generally tend to be less
switched on to this sort of thing as you more or less admit when you
state that you're sure you're not representative of the majority.

I find it interesting that you express annoyance with my reference to
older people as a demographic group but don't show any annoyance
about me referring to disabled people as one.

Les. Hayward

2025-01-18 13:04:30 UTC

I'm an "older person". I really like digital passes, I hate paper. I
loose paper, I can't easily magnify paper. I can back up my electronic
pass on one or two devices, I can enlarge it on screen to make it
whatever size I want to read it with my crap "does go to Specsavers"
eyesight.
I'm sure I'm not representative of the majority, but please stop using
"older people" as a block vote of the apparently technologically
incapable to make your point.

I am in my 70s and highly technologically literate having done an
Applied Computing degree in my late 50s and a Masters in Computing in
my 60s so I am well aware that some older people are very competent in
this stuff. IME, however, older people generally tend to be less
switched on to this sort of thing as you more or less admit when you
state that you're sure you're not representative of the majority.
I find it interesting that you express annoyance with my reference to
older people as a demographic group but don't show any annoyance
about me referring to disabled people as one.

I also understand the stuff at the age of 81. It is not the technology
in my case, just that I find the increasing requirements for people to
carry a ruddy phone all the time very annoying. The only time I carry
one (and it is a very basic device) is for emergency use e.g. a
breakdown if out for a drive.

Martin Harran

2025-01-18 17:28:21 UTC

On Sat, 18 Jan 2025 13:04:30 +0000, "Les. Hayward"

I'm an "older person". I really like digital passes, I hate paper. I
loose paper, I can't easily magnify paper. I can back up my electronic
pass on one or two devices, I can enlarge it on screen to make it
whatever size I want to read it with my crap "does go to Specsavers"
eyesight.
I'm sure I'm not representative of the majority, but please stop using
"older people" as a block vote of the apparently technologically
incapable to make your point.

I am in my 70s and highly technologically literate having done an
Applied Computing degree in my late 50s and a Masters in Computing in
my 60s so I am well aware that some older people are very competent in
this stuff. IME, however, older people generally tend to be less
switched on to this sort of thing as you more or less admit when you
state that you're sure you're not representative of the majority.
I find it interesting that you express annoyance with my reference to
older people as a demographic group but don't show any annoyance
about me referring to disabled people as one.

My main problem is the size of the keyboard :(

Peter Walker

2025-01-18 19:36:46 UTC

Post by Martin Harran
On Sat, 18 Jan 2025 13:04:30 +0000, "Les. Hayward"

Post by Les. Hayward
I also understand the stuff at the age of 81. It is not the technology
in my case, just that I find the increasing requirements for people to
carry a ruddy phone all the time very annoying. The only time I carry
one (and it is a very basic device) is for emergency use e.g. a
breakdown if out for a drive.

My phone has 'smart' capability but I only use it for calls & texts. I find
the absence of distractions quite liberating.

Post by Martin Harran
My main problem is the size of the keyboard :(

Could some kind of soft tipped conductive stylus help you there?

Davey

2025-01-19 16:45:24 UTC

On Sat, 18 Jan 2025 13:04:30 +0000

Post by Martin Harran
Apparently they are planning to do this and move completely
digital. Are there any legal implications in this? I wonder, for
example, whether it is discrimination against older people or
disabled people for whom digital passes wouldn't really be a
practical option?

I'm an "older person". I really like digital passes, I hate
paper. I loose paper, I can't easily magnify paper. I can back
up my electronic pass on one or two devices, I can enlarge it on
screen to make it whatever size I want to read it with my crap
"does go to Specsavers" eyesight.
I'm sure I'm not representative of the majority, but please stop
using "older people" as a block vote of the apparently
technologically incapable to make your point.

I am in my 70s and highly technologically literate having done an
Applied Computing degree in my late 50s and a Masters in Computing
in my 60s so I am well aware that some older people are very
competent in this stuff. IME, however, older people generally tend
to be less switched on to this sort of thing as you more or less
admit when you state that you're sure you're not representative of
the majority.
I find it interesting that you express annoyance with my reference
to older people as a demographic group but don't show any annoyance
about me referring to disabled people as one.

I also understand the stuff at the age of 81. It is not the
technology in my case, just that I find the increasing requirements
for people to carry a ruddy phone all the time very annoying. The
only time I carry one (and it is a very basic device) is for
emergency use e.g. a breakdown if out for a drive.

I agree one hundred percent with that. I suppose I can take a photo of
my boarding pass, in fact that is probably what I will do when I fly to
Germany in a couple of months. but I am already annoyed with the
airline's assumption that I know precisely what to do with a digital
ticket. I don't, and I will have to ask them. If I can find a way to
contact somebody, that is.

--
Davey.

Jethro_uk

2025-01-19 17:12:10 UTC

Post by Davey

Post by Martin Harran
Apparently they are planning to do this and move completely
digital. Are there any legal implications in this? I wonder, for
example, whether it is discrimination against older people or
disabled people for whom digital passes wouldn't really be a
practical option?

I'm an "older person". I really like digital passes, I hate paper.
I loose paper, I can't easily magnify paper. I can back up my
electronic pass on one or two devices, I can enlarge it on screen to
make it whatever size I want to read it with my crap "does go to
Specsavers" eyesight.
I'm sure I'm not representative of the majority, but please stop
using "older people" as a block vote of the apparently
technologically incapable to make your point.

I am in my 70s and highly technologically literate having done an
Applied Computing degree in my late 50s and a Masters in Computing in
my 60s so I am well aware that some older people are very competent
in this stuff. IME, however, older people generally tend to be less
switched on to this sort of thing as you more or less admit when you
state that you're sure you're not representative of the majority.
I find it interesting that you express annoyance with my reference to
older people as a demographic group but don't show any annoyance
about me referring to disabled people as one.

Some QR codes are dynamic and can't be snapshotted

Davey

2025-01-19 23:06:03 UTC

On Sun, 19 Jan 2025 17:12:10 -0000 (UTC)

On Sat, 18 Jan 2025 13:04:30 +0000 "Les. Hayward"

On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 17:43:01 +0000, Allan

Post by Martin Harran
Apparently they are planning to do this and move completely
digital. Are there any legal implications in this? I wonder,
for example, whether it is discrimination against older people
or disabled people for whom digital passes wouldn't really be a
practical option?

I'm an "older person". I really like digital passes, I hate
paper. I loose paper, I can't easily magnify paper. I can back
up my electronic pass on one or two devices, I can enlarge it
on screen to make it whatever size I want to read it with my
crap "does go to Specsavers" eyesight.
I'm sure I'm not representative of the majority, but please stop
using "older people" as a block vote of the apparently
technologically incapable to make your point.

I am in my 70s and highly technologically literate having done an
Applied Computing degree in my late 50s and a Masters in
Computing in my 60s so I am well aware that some older people
are very competent in this stuff. IME, however, older people
generally tend to be less switched on to this sort of thing as
you more or less admit when you state that you're sure you're
not representative of the majority.
I find it interesting that you express annoyance with my
reference to older people as a demographic group but don't show
any annoyance about me referring to disabled people as one.

I also understand the stuff at the age of 81. It is not the
technology in my case, just that I find the increasing
requirements for people to carry a ruddy phone all the time very
annoying. The only time I carry one (and it is a very basic
device) is for emergency use e.g. a breakdown if out for a drive.

I agree one hundred percent with that. I suppose I can take a photo
of my boarding pass, in fact that is probably what I will do when I
fly to Germany in a couple of months. but I am already annoyed with
the airline's assumption that I know precisely what to do with a
digital ticket. I don't, and I will have to ask them. If I can find
a way to contact somebody, that is.

Some QR codes are dynamic and can't be snapshotted

I have no way of using QR codes, so that means nothing to me. I have no
idea why I would be interested in a QR code, so I am not.

See above, re: "I am already annoyed with the airline's assumption that
I know precisely what to do with a digital ticket."
When I last flew, they were just coming in as 'a thing', but good old
paper tickets were still useable.
And I don't believe that I am the only person in this situation.

--
Davey.

Clive Page

2025-01-20 11:14:09 UTC

Post by Davey
I have no way of using QR codes, so that means nothing to me. I have no
idea why I would be interested in a QR code, so I am not.
See above, re: "I am already annoyed with the airline's assumption that
I know precisely what to do with a digital ticket."
When I last flew, they were just coming in as 'a thing', but good old
paper tickets were still useable.
And I don't believe that I am the only person in this situation.

I'm sure you are not, and if airlines really insist on e-tickets they
may well lost custom.

I can use e-tickets but always print out a copy if I can. For the
simple reason that the printed ticket doesn't depend on my phone being
sufficiently charged, network-connected, and fully operational.

--
Clive Page

Davey

2025-01-20 11:52:41 UTC

On Mon, 20 Jan 2025 11:14:09 +0000

Post by Clive Page

Post by Davey
I have no way of using QR codes, so that means nothing to me. I
have no idea why I would be interested in a QR code, so I am not.
See above, re: "I am already annoyed with the airline's assumption
that I know precisely what to do with a digital ticket."
When I last flew, they were just coming in as 'a thing', but good
old paper tickets were still useable.
And I don't believe that I am the only person in this situation.

I'm sure you are not, and if airlines really insist on e-tickets they
may well lost custom.
I can use e-tickets but always print out a copy if I can. For the
simple reason that the printed ticket doesn't depend on my phone
being sufficiently charged, network-connected, and fully operational.

Amen to that.

--
Davey.

Nick Odell

2025-01-20 15:32:52 UTC

Post by Clive Page

I'm sure you are not, and if airlines really insist on e-tickets they
may well lost custom.

This is all part of the process of "The Enshitification of
Everything"((C)Cory Doctorow) and Ryanair seem to be streets ahead in
the game. For your convenience we will designate a card you've never
hear of to be the default no-fee purchase instrument; we'll insist you
print your boarding pass at home/insist you bring a phone/insist you
do not bring a phone/insist you do not print a boarding pass/game the
seating system so that you can't game the seating system and sit next
to someone you are traveling with unless you pay extra. Etc, etc, etc.

Grown-up airlines don't behave like this. One low cost airline I flew
with recently started handing out claim forms in the middle of the
flight."I'm sorry guys but we are running behind schedule and by the
time we land, some of you may be able to claim for the delay. Just ask
a flight attendant if you need any help filling out the details."

Post by Clive Page
I can use e-tickets but always print out a copy if I can. For the
simple reason that the printed ticket doesn't depend on my phone being
sufficiently charged, network-connected, and fully operational.

So why do people fly with airlines that treat them this way? Does
perceived price really trump being treated fairly, decently and within
the relevant laws?

Nick

Mark Goodge

2025-01-20 16:07:51 UTC

Post by Nick Odell
So why do people fly with airlines that treat them this way? Does
perceived price really trump being treated fairly, decently and within
the relevant laws?

I've managed to get away with only ever using Ryanair once, but that one
time was because they were the only airline doing the route I wanted to take
(Stansted to Montpellier). Which is also another reason for sometimes
preferring budget airlines - they have a reputation for flying into small,
out-of-the-way airports that are, at best, only in the general vicinity of
the city that they are named after, but that can often be an advantage if
you don't actually need to head into the city centre.

Mark

Roland Perry

2025-01-22 12:11:45 UTC

Post by Mark Goodge

Post by Nick Odell
So why do people fly with airlines that treat them this way? Does
perceived price really trump being treated fairly, decently and within
the relevant laws?

I've managed to get away with only ever using Ryanair once, but that one
time was because they were the only airline doing the route I wanted to take
(Stansted to Montpellier).

Agreed.

Post by Mark Goodge
Which is also another reason for sometimes preferring budget airlines -
they have a reputation for flying into small, out-of-the-way airports
that are, at best, only in the general vicinity of the city that they
are named after, but that can often be an advantage if you don't
actually need to head into the city centre.

That's an urban myth which only ever applied to handful of major city
destinations, but hey - makes good clickbait.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry

2025-01-23 11:46:10 UTC

[quoted text muted]

Agreed.

[quoted text muted]

That's an urban myth which only ever applied to handful of major city
destinations, but hey - makes good clickbait.

Have you flown from London Oxford ?

No, it doesn't have International flights.

But thanks for letting us know one of the clickbait locations I referred
to.

--
Roland Perry

Martin Harran

2025-01-20 22:21:39 UTC

Post by Nick Odell

Post by Clive Page

I'm sure you are not, and if airlines really insist on e-tickets they
may well lost custom.

This is all part of the process of "The Enshitification of
Everything"((C)Cory Doctorow) and Ryanair seem to be streets ahead in
the game. For your convenience we will designate a card you've never
hear of to be the default no-fee purchase instrument; we'll insist you
print your boarding pass at home/insist you bring a phone/insist you
do not bring a phone/insist you do not print a boarding pass/game the
seating system so that you can't game the seating system and sit next
to someone you are traveling with unless you pay extra. Etc, etc, etc.
Grown-up airlines don't behave like this. One low cost airline I flew
with recently started handing out claim forms in the middle of the
flight."I'm sorry guys but we are running behind schedule and by the
time we land, some of you may be able to claim for the delay. Just ask
a flight attendant if you need any help filling out the details."

So why do people fly with airlines that treat them this way? Does
perceived price really trump being treated fairly, decently and within
the relevant laws?

FWIW, I've flown with Ryanir many many times over the years and I have
never ever had a problem with them. That might be related to the fact
that I know their rules and don't try to circumvent them.

Post by Nick Odell
Nick

Jon Ribbens

2025-01-22 18:04:35 UTC

Post by Nick Odell
This is all part of the process of "The Enshitification of
Everything"((C)Cory Doctorow) and Ryanair seem to be streets ahead in
the game.

...

Post by Nick Odell
So why do people fly with airlines that treat them this way? Does
perceived price really trump being treated fairly, decently and within
the relevant laws?

Most often because only those airlines fly between the airports the
passenger wants.
Or the alternative is a flight which is much more expensive (I'm booking
one today where it's £150ea on EasyJet, £250ea on BA) To some extent I
can use the £200 saved to mitigate the pain, although BA is almost as
bad as EasyJet nowadays.

For the last 15 years (except during Covid) we have flown twice per
year Dublin to Bristol return [1]. We have a choice of Aer Lingus or
Ryanair, both have several flights daily in each direction at broadly
similar times, morning, afternoon, evening. As a retired couple
visiting family we are very flexible in our times so go with the
cheapest option except early morning to Bristol, late evening to
Dublin. Every time we have flown, I have priced both airlines and
Ryanair has always come out cheapest, usually €50-100 but a couple of
times more than that, even allowing for sitting together and luggage
charges. I see no advantage whatsoever in flying with Aer LIngus and
have never had a problem with Ryanair so we have always gone with
them.
Ryanair are now the biggest airline in Europe flying millions of
passengers every year so there are clearly many people happy with
their service.

That is an unsafe assumption. I'd suggest that perhaps instead the
explanation is that that for flights, most people prioritise price
over almost everything else.

kat

2025-01-23 10:50:50 UTC

Post by Nick Odell
This is all part of the process of "The Enshitification of
Everything"((C)Cory Doctorow) and Ryanair seem to be streets ahead in
the game.

...

Post by Nick Odell
So why do people fly with airlines that treat them this way? Does
perceived price really trump being treated fairly, decently and within
the relevant laws?

That is an unsafe assumption. I'd suggest that perhaps instead the
explanation is that that for flights, most people prioritise price
over almost everything else.

For a short flight one can put up with the relative lack of comfort. Flying to
Dublin (in our case a mumber of times from Stansted) is short. The best Ryan
Air flights though are those that arrive a few minutes late - then your ears
aren't assaulted by the trumpeting.

--
kat

Post by Jon Ribbens
^..^<

Martin Harran

2025-01-23 14:26:31 UTC

On Wed, 22 Jan 2025 18:04:35 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens

Post by Nick Odell
This is all part of the process of "The Enshitification of
Everything"((C)Cory Doctorow) and Ryanair seem to be streets ahead in
the game.

...

Post by Nick Odell
So why do people fly with airlines that treat them this way? Does
perceived price really trump being treated fairly, decently and within
the relevant laws?

That is an unsafe assumption.

How many people do you know who have flown Ryanair and how many have
complained about them? In my case, the first answer is quite a few and
the second answer is none.

ISTM that most of the complaints I hear about Ryanair are fairly
typical red-top exaggeration.

Post by Jon Ribbens
I'd suggest that perhaps instead the
explanation is that that for flights, most people prioritise price
over almost everything else.

Jon Ribbens

2025-01-23 14:47:56 UTC

Post by Martin Harran
On Wed, 22 Jan 2025 18:04:35 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens

Post by Nick Odell
This is all part of the process of "The Enshitification of
Everything"((C)Cory Doctorow) and Ryanair seem to be streets ahead in
the game.

...

Post by Nick Odell
So why do people fly with airlines that treat them this way? Does
perceived price really trump being treated fairly, decently and within
the relevant laws?

That is an unsafe assumption.

How many people do you know who have flown Ryanair and how many have
complained about them? In my case, the first answer is quite a few and
the second answer is none.

A fair few, and almost all of them. Including me.

Martin Harran

2025-01-23 15:10:01 UTC

On Thu, 23 Jan 2025 14:47:56 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens

Post by Martin Harran
On Wed, 22 Jan 2025 18:04:35 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens

Post by Nick Odell
This is all part of the process of "The Enshitification of
Everything"((C)Cory Doctorow) and Ryanair seem to be streets ahead in
the game.

...

Post by Nick Odell
So why do people fly with airlines that treat them this way? Does
perceived price really trump being treated fairly, decently and within
the relevant laws?

That is an unsafe assumption.

How many people do you know who have flown Ryanair and how many have
complained about them? In my case, the first answer is quite a few and
the second answer is none.

A fair few, and almost all of them. Including me.

Perhaps I and other travellersI know are just lucky travellers then
Out of curiosity, what were typical reasons for the complaints?

Jon Ribbens

2025-01-23 15:41:40 UTC

Post by Martin Harran
On Thu, 23 Jan 2025 14:47:56 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens

Post by Martin Harran
On Wed, 22 Jan 2025 18:04:35 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens

Post by Nick Odell
This is all part of the process of "The Enshitification of
Everything"((C)Cory Doctorow) and Ryanair seem to be streets ahead in
the game.

...

Post by Nick Odell
So why do people fly with airlines that treat them this way? Does
perceived price really trump being treated fairly, decently and within
the relevant laws?

That is an unsafe assumption.

How many people do you know who have flown Ryanair and how many have
complained about them? In my case, the first answer is quite a few and
the second answer is none.

A fair few, and almost all of them. Including me.

Perhaps I and other travellersI know are just lucky travellers then

Very lucky. Ryanair is consistently rated very badly by travellers,
e.g. in Which? surveys it is almost always last or second from last,
and they rank very highly in number of complaints received.

https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/ryanair-and-the-worst-uk-airlines-a6GPA3E276me
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49433807

Post by Martin Harran
Out of curiosity, what were typical reasons for the complaints?

The usual. You don't expect top tier customer service from a budget
airline, but it would be nice if the staff didn't act like they
actively hate you. Frequently-changing rules on baggage and pedantic
implementation of them. Forcing passengers to re-pack their lugagge
in the check-in queue to humiliate them.

Martin Harran

2025-01-23 17:03:36 UTC

On Thu, 23 Jan 2025 15:41:40 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens

Post by Martin Harran
On Thu, 23 Jan 2025 14:47:56 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens

Post by Martin Harran
On Wed, 22 Jan 2025 18:04:35 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens

Post by Nick Odell
This is all part of the process of "The Enshitification of
Everything"((C)Cory Doctorow) and Ryanair seem to be streets ahead in
the game.

...

Post by Nick Odell
So why do people fly with airlines that treat them this way? Does
perceived price really trump being treated fairly, decently and within
the relevant laws?

That is an unsafe assumption.

How many people do you know who have flown Ryanair and how many have
complained about them? In my case, the first answer is quite a few and
the second answer is none.

A fair few, and almost all of them. Including me.

Perhaps I and other travellersI know are just lucky travellers then

Very lucky. Ryanair is consistently rated very badly by travellers,
e.g. in Which? surveys it is almost always last or second from last,
and they rank very highly in number of complaints received.
https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/ryanair-and-the-worst-uk-airlines-a6GPA3E276me
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49433807

Post by Martin Harran
Out of curiosity, what were typical reasons for the complaints?

The usual.

Hand waving noted.

Post by Jon Ribbens
You don't expect top tier customer service from a budget
airline, but it would be nice if the staff didn't act like they
actively hate you.

I've never encountered staff on any airline, budget or other, who has
acted as if they actively hated me. Maybe something to do with me
being a generally affable person.I'm more than happy to make a
complaint where one is warranted but nver get aggressive or attack
service people for things outside their control - when I have a
complaint to make about something, I take the trouble to let the
recipient of the complaint know if I realise it is not their fault.

Post by Jon Ribbens
Frequently-changing rules on baggage

Not frequently changing in my experience. A 10 kg bag has always been
a 10 kg bag, I think the charging structure may have changed once,
possibly twice in the last 10-15 years but the charges whether
changed or unchanged, are always well flagged when booking my tickets.

Post by Jon Ribbens
and pedantic
implementation of them.

IME, when people have been told they are outside the rules, they have
been well outside them, not a *pedantic* interpretation. I actually
wish that sometimes they would be stricter in enforcement, it really
bugs me when I can't get my stuff into an overhead locker because it
is crammed with clearly over-sized bags

Post by Jon Ribbens
Forcing passengers to re-pack their lugagge
in the check-in queue to humiliate them.

That last one is typical of self-inflicted problems. If I pay for a 10
kg bag and if I decide to chance my arm and turn up with one weighing
more than 10 kg, then the consequences of that are my fault, not a
problem with the airline staff. I remember once being held up at a
baggage check-in by a customer irately arguing with the check-in
operator about being charged excess baggage for his bag which was very
clearly overweight. The essence of his complaint was that he hadn't
been charged for the same bag on the outward trip. I can just image
the reaction of a policeman stopping me for speeding and me insisting
he was being unfair because I had been speeding on the same road the
day before and hadn't been stopped!

Jon Ribbens

2025-01-23 17:50:05 UTC

Post by Martin Harran
On Thu, 23 Jan 2025 15:41:40 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens

Post by Jon Ribbens
Very lucky. Ryanair is consistently rated very badly by travellers,
e.g. in Which? surveys it is almost always last or second from last,
and they rank very highly in number of complaints received.
https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/ryanair-and-the-worst-uk-airlines-a6GPA3E276me
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49433807

Post by Martin Harran
Out of curiosity, what were typical reasons for the complaints?

The usual.

Hand waving noted.

That's an odd thing to "note" when you could see quite clearly that
I immediately made specific comments. And ironic given all of your
response was hand-waving: "oh it must be your fault that you and many
thousands of other people have problems with RyanAir and only RyanAir".

Mark Goodge

2025-01-23 17:43:23 UTC

On Thu, 23 Jan 2025 15:41:40 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens

Post by Martin Harran
On Thu, 23 Jan 2025 14:47:56 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens

Post by Martin Harran
How many people do you know who have flown Ryanair and how many have
complained about them? In my case, the first answer is quite a few and
the second answer is none.

A fair few, and almost all of them. Including me.

Perhaps I and other travellersI know are just lucky travellers then

Very lucky. Ryanair is consistently rated very badly by travellers,
e.g. in Which? surveys it is almost always last or second from last,
and they rank very highly in number of complaints received.

I suppose a lot depends on the proportion of complaints to flights. Absolute
numbers don't really tell you a lot.

That said, I'm perfectly willing to believe that Ryanair pisses off a
greater percentage of its passengers than other airlines. In any ranked
list, someone has to be bottom, and Ryanair seems comfortable with occupying
that slot.

On the other hand, I've never had any significant complaint about any
airline I've ever used. At least, not so far, and not if you discount the
fact that Bulgarian Airlines managed to spill hot tea from a samovar onto my
travelling companion (but that was her complaint, not mine, they didn't
spill it on me). Maybe I'm just lucky.

Mark

billy bookcase

2025-01-23 17:50:34 UTC

Post by Jon Ribbens
The usual. You don't expect top tier customer service from a budget
airline, but it would be nice if the staff didn't act like they
actively hate you.

Ryanair can't buy aeroplanes cheaper than anyone else;they cant buy
aviation fuel any cheaper than anyone else. The only way they can
compete is by paying lower airport charges, and lower wages.
And because people like you (the ones they appear to hate) insist
on paying the lowest possible prices to fly anywhere, in order to
remain competitive, Ryanair will pay the lowest possible wages
as well. And you expect them to smile in addition?

Post by Jon Ribbens
Frequently-changing rules on baggage and pedantic
implementation of them. Forcing passengers to re-pack their lugagge
in the check-in queue to humiliate them.

Space is at a premium on aircraft; as is weight.

About the only idea O'Leary hasn't floated thus far, apart from charging
for the toilets, is weighing the passengers.

And if they treat the passengers like that, what sort of rules and regulations
do you think they impose, on their happy go-lucky staff ? Week in and week
out. Whereas for the lucky passengers, its only a couple of hours at most.

bb

Jon Ribbens

2025-01-23 20:13:45 UTC

Post by Jon Ribbens
The usual. You don't expect top tier customer service from a budget
airline, but it would be nice if the staff didn't act like they
actively hate you.

Are those things that you just claimed about me true?
Or did you just make them up?

I'll give you a clue: it's the latter.

Post by billy bookcase
And if they treat the passengers like that, what sort of rules and
regulations do you think they impose, on their happy go-lucky staff ?
Week in and week out. Whereas for the lucky passengers, its only a
couple of hours at most.

So... you agree with me that RyanAir is bad?

billy bookcase

2025-01-24 09:50:30 UTC

Post by Jon Ribbens
The usual. You don't expect top tier customer service from a budget
airline, but it would be nice if the staff didn't act like they
actively hate you.

Are those things that you just claimed about me true?
Or did you just make them up?

Did you not just claim above that Ryanair staff act as if they actively
hated you ?

So either you're speaking from actual experience or its *you* who
ia "making things up".

I merely pointed out that this is simply no more than might be expected,
from people with relatively poor pay and working conditions, some of
whom spend their whole working lives shuttling back and forth
in metal tubes full of people packed like sardines, some drunk, some
being sick and others arguing over the overhead lockers.

There could instead be another more personal explanation of course.
That this it the type of reaction which you personally seem to generate
in complete strangers for some umnknown reason. People just take an
instant dislike to you. That's is always possible I suppose. But
I refrained from mentioning it out of simple good manners I suppose.

In other words, maybe its just you ?

Post by Jon Ribbens
I'll give you a clue: it's the latter.

So... you agree with me that RyanAir is bad?

Er no. What are they bad ?

I've never travelled First Class myself but I would imagine anyone
paying the extra to do so, is more likely to encounter that degree
of snivelling obsequiousness which some people seem to regard as
their due, when dealing with everyone in dead end jobs, and people
they regard as their "inferiors" generally; from checkout assistants
to flight attendants. At least Ryanair are honest about it. O'Leary
isn't paying them any extra to smile at the passengers, and so they
don't.

bb

Jon Ribbens

2025-01-24 13:10:54 UTC

Post by Jon Ribbens
The usual. You don't expect top tier customer service from a budget
airline, but it would be nice if the staff didn't act like they
actively hate you.

Are those things that you just claimed about me true?
Or did you just make them up?

Did you not just claim above that Ryanair staff act as if they actively
hated you ?

Yes. What's your point? The false claims above that you made about me
do not follow from that statement. You just made them up.

billy bookcase

2025-01-24 13:55:05 UTC

Post by Jon Ribbens
The usual. You don't expect top tier customer service from a budget
airline, but it would be nice if the staff didn't act like they
actively hate you.

Are those things that you just claimed about me true?
Or did you just make them up?

Did you not just claim above that Ryanair staff act as if they actively
hated you ?

Yes. What's your point? The false claims above that you made about me
do not follow from that statement.

So do you expect them to smile or not ?

Yes or no ?

Because otherwise I can't see what you're complaining about.

bb

Jon Ribbens

2025-01-24 14:19:36 UTC

Post by Jon Ribbens
The usual. You don't expect top tier customer service from a budget
airline, but it would be nice if the staff didn't act like they
actively hate you.

Are those things that you just claimed about me true?
Or did you just make them up?

Did you not just claim above that Ryanair staff act as if they actively
hated you ?

Yes. What's your point? The false claims above that you made about me
do not follow from that statement.

So do you expect them to smile or not ?
Yes or no ?
Because otherwise I can't see what you're complaining about.

You claimed "people like you insist on paying the lowest possible prices
to fly anywhere", and "you expect them to smile". Both of these claims
are false, and neither of them follow from anything I said. I must admit
I worry for you slightly if you think that anyone who isn't smiling at
you hates you.

billy bookcase

2025-01-24 14:40:29 UTC

Post by Jon Ribbens
The usual. You don't expect top tier customer service from a budget
airline, but it would be nice if the staff didn't act like they
actively hate you.

Are those things that you just claimed about me true?
Or did you just make them up?

Did you not just claim above that Ryanair staff act as if they actively
hated you ?

Yes. What's your point? The false claims above that you made about me
do not follow from that statement.

So do you expect them to smile or not ?
Yes or no ?
Because otherwise I can't see what you're complaining about.

You're forever claiming that I "make things up" or that I'm are "imagining
things".

And yet here *you* are, claiming, that Ryanair staff acted as though "they
actively hate you"".

Which leads me to wonder, quite frankly, quite what Ryanair staff can possibly
have been doing in an airport /aerople environment which would lead *any
reasonable person* to conclude that they *actively hated them*; rather
than that they were simply doing their job. Repetitive, and unrewarding
thaough it may well have been.

I can only suggest you think seriously about this, as these throwaway
remarks about being hated, can often be indicative of far more serious
underlying concerns

bb

Martin Harran

2025-01-23 22:03:01 UTC

Post by Jon Ribbens
The usual. You don't expect top tier customer service from a budget
airline, but it would be nice if the staff didn't act like they
actively hate you.

Ryanair can't buy aeroplanes cheaper than anyone else;they cant buy
aviation fuel any cheaper than anyone else. The only way they can
compete is by paying lower airport charges, and lower wages.

You seem to have missed a few other things like using steps instead of
skybridges, cutting out in-flight amenities, generating on-board
income, using gates that are cheaper because they are farthest from
the terminal, only using one type of aircraft and, possibly most
significant of all, running an efficient operation to minimise
turnaround times and have their planes less time on the ground.

Post by billy bookcase
And because people like you (the ones they appear to hate) insist
on paying the lowest possible prices to fly anywhere, in order to
remain competitive, Ryanair will pay the lowest possible wages
as well.

Have you any evidence to back up that claim that Ryanair pay lower
wages than any other airilens?

Post by billy bookcase
And you expect them to smile in addition?

Post by Jon Ribbens
Frequently-changing rules on baggage and pedantic
implementation of them. Forcing passengers to re-pack their lugagge
in the check-in queue to humiliate them.

Space is at a premium on aircraft; as is weight.
About the only idea O'Leary hasn't floated thus far, apart from charging
for the toilets, is weighing the passengers.
And if they treat the passengers like that, what sort of rules and regulations
do you think they impose, on their happy go-lucky staff ? Week in and week
out. Whereas for the lucky passengers, its only a couple of hours at most.
bb

billy bookcase

2025-01-24 09:43:23 UTC

Post by Jon Ribbens
The usual. You don't expect top tier customer service from a budget
airline, but it would be nice if the staff didn't act like they
actively hate you.

Ryanair can't buy aeroplanes cheaper than anyone else;they cant buy
aviation fuel any cheaper than anyone else. The only way they can
compete is by paying lower airport charges, and lower wages.

I also missed out possibly the most important one of all, Ryanair's
load factor of sometimes up to 97%. Meaning that their planes are typically
packed like sardines - as are the overhead lockers; which also make
the job of the flight attendants even more stressful

Have you any evidence to back up that claim that Ryanair pay lower
wages than any other airilens?

They don't pay the lowest, that is true. That honour goes to EasyJet
but only because they fly into some "proper" airports near big cities
and so pay higher airport charges.

Ryanair recruit staff from over the whole of Europe, train them up in
Spain and employ them under all different sorts of contracts
to take advantage of the most advantageous local laws. And have
always discouraged unions. As a result they've had a number of strikes
and disputes down the years, over pay and working conditions

But quite possibly, as far as O'Leary is concerned, if they weren't
going on strike that would mean Ryanair must be paying them too much.
And he probably takes pride in the fact that Ryanair never pay
any of their employees *a single penny* more than they need to.
Its a business not a charity. Unlike in the early days perhaps,

As with passenger complaints this isn't "bad publicity" dreamed up
by the tabloid press. This is all part and parcel of the business
model. If the passengers and staff aren't always complaining
about something or other, it must mean you're treating them
too well; or simply paying them too much.

That's as accurate a measure of efficiency as any.

Nobody forces anyone to work for Ryanair; and by the same token they're
all perfectly free to stay back in Rumania, Bulgaria Poland or wherever
twiddling their fingers on the dole. Those that can't do plumbing
at least.

bb

Martin Harran

2025-01-26 14:16:14 UTC

Post by Jon Ribbens
The usual. You don't expect top tier customer service from a budget
airline, but it would be nice if the staff didn't act like they
actively hate you.

Ryanair can't buy aeroplanes cheaper than anyone else;they cant buy
aviation fuel any cheaper than anyone else. The only way they can
compete is by paying lower airport charges, and lower wages.

Have you any evidence to back up that claim that Ryanair pay lower
wages than any other airilens?

They don't pay the lowest, that is true. That honour goes to EasyJet
but only because they fly into some "proper" airports near big cities
and so pay higher airport charges.
Ryanair recruit staff from over the whole of Europe, train them up in
Spain and employ them under all different sorts of contracts
to take advantage of the most advantageous local laws. And have
always discouraged unions. As a result they've had a number of strikes
and disputes down the years, over pay and working conditions
But quite possibly, as far as O'Leary is concerned, if they weren't
going on strike that would mean Ryanair must be paying them too much.
And he probably takes pride in the fact that Ryanair never pay
any of their employees *a single penny* more than they need to.
Its a business not a charity. Unlike in the early days perhaps,
As with passenger complaints this isn't "bad publicity" dreamed up
by the tabloid press. This is all part and parcel of the business
model. If the passengers and staff aren't always complaining
about something or other, it must mean you're treating them
too well; or simply paying them too much.
That's as accurate a measure of efficiency as any.
Nobody forces anyone to work for Ryanair; and by the same token they're
all perfectly free to stay back in Rumania, Bulgaria Poland or wherever
twiddling their fingers on the dole. Those that can't do plumbing
at least.

In other words, you don't have any evidence, you're simply repeating
shit you have heard elsewhere.

michael adams

2025-01-26 18:12:45 UTC

Post by Jon Ribbens
The usual. You don't expect top tier customer service from a budget
airline, but it would be nice if the staff didn't act like they
actively hate you.

Ryanair can't buy aeroplanes cheaper than anyone else;they cant buy
aviation fuel any cheaper than anyone else. The only way they can
compete is by paying lower airport charges, and lower wages.

Have you any evidence to back up that claim that Ryanair pay lower
wages than any other airilens?

They don't pay the lowest, that is true. That honour goes to EasyJet
but only because they fly into some "proper" airports near big cities
and so pay higher airport charges.
Ryanair recruit staff from over the whole of Europe, train them up in
Spain and employ them under all different sorts of contracts
to take advantage of the most advantageous local laws. And have
always discouraged unions. As a result they've had a number of strikes
and disputes down the years, over pay and working conditions
But quite possibly, as far as O'Leary is concerned, if they weren't
going on strike that would mean Ryanair must be paying them too much.
And he probably takes pride in the fact that Ryanair never pay
any of their employees *a single penny* more than they need to.
Its a business not a charity. Unlike in the early days perhaps,
As with passenger complaints this isn't "bad publicity" dreamed up
by the tabloid press. This is all part and parcel of the business
model. If the passengers and staff aren't always complaining
about something or other, it must mean you're treating them
too well; or simply paying them too much.
That's as accurate a measure of efficiency as any.
Nobody forces anyone to work for Ryanair; and by the same token they're
all perfectly free to stay back in Rumania, Bulgaria Poland or wherever
twiddling their fingers on the dole. Those that can't do plumbing
at least.

In other words, you don't have any evidence, you're simply repeating
shit you have heard elsewhere.

" you're simply repeating shit you have heard elsewhere."

So where eactly do you suggest I might "have heard this shit" ?

In the pub, waiting at a bus stop, in the queue in the
supermarket, where exactly ?

Which would be a bad idea for starters obviously; as nobody need
necessarily believe me.

So lets just say I "read it" somewhere, instead.

Which is handy where evidence is concerned, especially since copy
and paste was invented. As it now means a person can show the evidence
even to people who've apparently never even heard of the Internet, or
Google

quote:

On Friday 24 June 2022, Ryanair cabin crew unions in Belgium, Portugal
and Spain announced a three-day strike over pay and working conditions.

Crews in France and Italy were expected to walk out over the weekend
while staff in Spain are set to strike on June 30 and July 1-2.

The unions are denouncing Ryanair's failure to respect local labour
laws covering issues such as the minimum wage and urge the company to
improve working conditions. In Belgium, the ACV and BBTK unions said
Ryanair was not respecting Belgian labour law for certain pre- and
post-flight work. Indeed, workers' contracts are not based on the
legal system of their country of residence but only on Ireland -
allowing the Irish company to be tight-lipped with its employees.

In addition, workers do not always have access to public benefits
in their own country because they are subject to Irish civil service law.

:unquote

https://www.etui.org/news/ryanair-cabin-crew-strike-over-poor-pay-and-working-conditions

Now that's only the one of course. But there are plenty more where that
came from. And its not really too much to ask to expect people to do
their own Googling, now is it ?

Presumably it wasn't simply as the result of "shit they'd heard
elsewhere" that the Irish Government no less, blocked Ryanair's
take-over bid for Aer Lingus the Semi- State Airline in 2009.

As to Michael O'Leary himself, as compared to at least one former
Taoiseach and numerous Irish business and political figures ( clearly
more Googling required))O'Leary has never been accused of dishonesty
or corruption of any kind or been subject to expensive public enquiries.
He may strike hard bargains with just about everyone but that's nothing
to be ashamed of; and his own mother would presumably be proud of him
on that account.

bb

Martin Harran

2025-01-26 21:50:31 UTC

On Sun, 26 Jan 2025 18:12:45 -0000, "michael adams"
<***@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:

OMG ... Michael Adams, talk about a voice from the past!

Post by Jon Ribbens
The usual. You don't expect top tier customer service from a budget
airline, but it would be nice if the staff didn't act like they
actively hate you.

Ryanair can't buy aeroplanes cheaper than anyone else;they cant buy
aviation fuel any cheaper than anyone else. The only way they can
compete is by paying lower airport charges, and lower wages.

Ah for the days when planes could fly half full and make up for it by
charging exorbitant fares.

Have you any evidence to back up that claim that Ryanair pay lower
wages than any other airilens?

They don't pay the lowest, that is true. That honour goes to EasyJet
but only because they fly into some "proper" airports near big cities
and so pay higher airport charges.
Ryanair recruit staff from over the whole of Europe, train them up in
Spain and employ them under all different sorts of contracts
to take advantage of the most advantageous local laws. And have
always discouraged unions. As a result they've had a number of strikes
and disputes down the years, over pay and working conditions
But quite possibly, as far as O'Leary is concerned, if they weren't
going on strike that would mean Ryanair must be paying them too much.
And he probably takes pride in the fact that Ryanair never pay
any of their employees *a single penny* more than they need to.
Its a business not a charity. Unlike in the early days perhaps,
As with passenger complaints this isn't "bad publicity" dreamed up
by the tabloid press. This is all part and parcel of the business
model. If the passengers and staff aren't always complaining
about something or other, it must mean you're treating them
too well; or simply paying them too much.
That's as accurate a measure of efficiency as any.
Nobody forces anyone to work for Ryanair; and by the same token they're
all perfectly free to stay back in Rumania, Bulgaria Poland or wherever
twiddling their fingers on the dole. Those that can't do plumbing
at least.

In other words, you don't have any evidence, you're simply repeating
shit you have heard elsewhere.

Your reluctance to tell us where you heard it speaks volumes.

Post by michael adams
Which is handy where evidence is concerned, especially since copy
and paste was invented. As it now means a person can show the evidence
even to people who've apparently never even heard of the Internet, or
Google
On Friday 24 June 2022, Ryanair cabin crew unions in Belgium, Portugal
and Spain announced a three-day strike over pay and working conditions.
Crews in France and Italy were expected to walk out over the weekend
while staff in Spain are set to strike on June 30 and July 1-2.

"Hundreds of British Airways workers at Heathrow Airport have voted to
go on strike over pay."
https://www.britishaviationgroup.co.uk/knowledge/british-airways-heathrow-staff-back-summer-strikes-over-pay/

As they took the lead, does that mean BA are even worse than Ryanair?

And Aer Lingus pilots went on strike last summer, I guess they are
treated pretty badly too.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cql8nn1xv8yo

Post by michael adams
The unions are denouncing Ryanair's failure to respect local labour
laws covering issues such as the minimum wage and urge the company to
improve working conditions. In Belgium, the ACV and BBTK unions said
Ryanair was not respecting Belgian labour law for certain pre- and
post-flight work. Indeed, workers' contracts are not based on the
legal system of their country of residence but only on Ireland -
allowing the Irish company to be tight-lipped with its employees.
In addition, workers do not always have access to public benefits
in their own country because they are subject to Irish civil service law.
:unquote
https://www.etui.org/news/ryanair-cabin-crew-strike-over-poor-pay-and-working-conditions
Now that's only the one of course. But there are plenty more where that
came from. And its not really too much to ask to expect people to do
their own Googling, now is it ?
Presumably it wasn't simply as the result of "shit they'd heard
elsewhere" that the Irish Government no less, blocked Ryanair's
take-over bid for Aer Lingus the Semi- State Airline in 2009.

It was the The European Union's competition authority , not the Irish
Government - do try to keep up, old chap.
https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2013/0227/369828-eu-blocks-ryanair-takeover-deal-for-aer-lingus/

And it was about preventing a monopoly, SFA to do with how Ryanair
treat their employees.

Post by michael adams
As to Michael O'Leary himself, as compared to at least one former
Taoiseach and numerous Irish business and political figures ( clearly
more Googling required))O'Leary has never been accused of dishonesty
or corruption of any kind or been subject to expensive public enquiries.
He may strike hard bargains with just about everyone but that's nothing
to be ashamed of; and his own mother would presumably be proud of him
on that account.
bb

michael adams

2025-01-27 09:31:24 UTC

Post by Martin Harran
On Sun, 26 Jan 2025 18:12:45 -0000, "michael adams"
OMG ... Michael Adams, talk about a voice from the past!

We do however seem to have moved in different directions in
the meantime

In fact I only underwent my complete change of personality
around 3 years ago. While the Ghost image I used to refresh
the C: Drive yesterday morning was made, guess when, -
4 years ago.

< snip >

Post by Martin Harran
In other words, you don't have any evidence, you're simply repeating
shit you have heard elsewhere.

Your reluctance to tell us where you heard it speaks volumes.

Took the lead ? That's airport workers at "one" airport

My quote cited cabin crews from "five" different countries

As to timing

quote

In the last three months of 2010, Ryanair made a loss of ?10.3
million, compared with a loss of ?10.9 million in the same period
the previous year. More than 3,000 flights were cancelled in
the quarter. Ryanair blamed the losses on strikes

unquote

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryanair

So that gives Ryanair an at least 12 year head start on that one, too

As I said before there's just so many to choose from.

Post by Martin Harran
And Aer Lingus pilots went on strike last summer, I guess they are
treated pretty badly too.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cql8nn1xv8yo

quote:

21 Aug 2019 · The High Court in London will allow a proposed strike
over pay and conditions by UK-based Ryanair pilots on Thursday and Friday.

unquote

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49421426

quote:

5 Aug 2023 · Belgium-based Ryanair pilots scheduled strike action across
August 14 and 15, affecting more than 80 flights and leading to a large
backlog and ...

unquote

https://www.airport-technology.com/news/belgian-pilots-strike-ryanair-break-agreement/

Post by michael adams
Presumably it wasn't simply as the result of "shit they'd heard
elsewhere" that the Irish Government no less, blocked Ryanair's
take-over bid for Aer Lingus the Semi- State Airline in 2009.

Well let's see what this "chap" has to say on the matter, shall we ?
This being Irish Transport Minister Leo Varadkar, who later went
on to become Taoiseach. But then the Irish Transport Minister,
what would he know ?

quote

"The Ryanair offer and at least the remedies that are being
reported are not sufficient in our view, so we won't support
their bid and, in addition, won't co-operate with their remedies
package," Transport Minister Leo Varadkar told journalists.
"The Commission will make its own decision, but we have given
our views and they are around connectivity, competition and
employment. We don't see any advantages for Ireland in what's
being proposed and we see very significant potential risks."

unquote

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/9754301/Irish-government-to-block-Ryanair-bid-for-Aer-Lingus.html?onwardjourney=584162_v1

Post by Martin Harran
And it was about preventing a monopoly, SFA to do with how Ryanair
treat their employees.

"we have given our views are around connectivity, competition and
employment. We don't see any advantages for Ireland in what's
being proposed and we see very significant potential risks."

Transport Minister Leo Varadkar

Yes a monopoly to "screw" all Irish cabin crews and pilots.

<snip>

It really is very simple. One of the great economies you and
others cite for Ryanair's profitability is faster turnaround times
at airports. So that rather than have them sitting on the tarmac
the planes are in the sky. So that say they make four trips a day
instead of three.

But this totally overlooks the fact that all planes have a finite
lifespan in terms of actual flying hours. With Ryanair coming from
a leasing background, we can be sure that just about the only
people on proper wages will be the maintenance staff; whether
contractors or not. There'll be no skimping there. But the fact remains
that whether making three trips a day or four those planes can only
make the same number of trips between maintenance stops and over their
entire lifetime

However, the same doesn't go for the cabin crew and the pilots
who are basically being worked to the bone. So that while crews
on other airlines are off down the walkways and into rest
rooms to take a break between flights with cleaning crews
doing all the work, Ryanair crews and pilots possibly don't leave
the planes at all. It's get one lot of passengers off, then out
with the buckets and sponges, wipe up all the sick and
clean the lavatories then on with the next lot. This is simply
because unlike with planes which need to be looked after, *staff
can be worked to the bone*, until they finally decide to leave
of their own accord. As there's always plenty more where
they come from. It would be interesting to know the average
age of Ryanair staff and the burnout rate compared with more
conventional airlines.

However just like people who go on buying £2 T shirts and £10
pairs of jeans despite the strong suspicion that for that price
they must be being made by 12 year olds working 60 hours a week
( whereas £80 jeans are made by 14 year olds only working a
40 hour week) * for obvious reasons people who fly Ryanair
can't admit to themselves that their low fares are at the
cost of human exploitation and people being worked to the
bone for a couple of years.

Its just easier to look the other way, isn't it ?

And indeed maybe people who are in a state of constant exhaustion
with nothing else to look forward to, really do give the impression
that they hate just about everything, and everybody.

bb

Martin Harran

2025-01-27 13:35:23 UTC

On Mon, 27 Jan 2025 09:31:24 -0000, "michael adams"

Post by Martin Harran
On Sun, 26 Jan 2025 18:12:45 -0000, "michael adams"
OMG ... Michael Adams, talk about a voice from the past!

We do however seem to have moved in different directions in
the meantime

But you haven't lost your ability to make assumptions and treat them
as fact.

Post by michael adams
In fact I only underwent my complete change of personality
around 3 years ago. While the Ghost image I used to refresh
the C: Drive yesterday morning was made, guess when, -
4 years ago.
< snip >

Post by Martin Harran
In other words, you don't have any evidence, you're simply repeating
shit you have heard elsewhere.

Your reluctance to tell us where you heard it speaks volumes.

Took the lead ? That's airport workers at "one" airport
My quote cited cabin crews from "five" different countries

Cherry picking is cherry picking. I have no interest in documenting
all the strikes by different airline staff over the year but I have
never seen anything to suggest that Ryanair are significantly better
or worse than any other employer.

Post by michael adams
As to timing
quote
In the last three months of 2010, Ryanair made a loss of ?10.3
million, compared with a loss of ?10.9 million in the same period
the previous year. More than 3,000 flights were cancelled in
the quarter. Ryanair blamed the losses on strikes
unquote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryanair
So that gives Ryanair an at least 12 year head start on that one, too
As I said before there's just so many to choose from.

Post by Martin Harran
And Aer Lingus pilots went on strike last summer, I guess they are
treated pretty badly too.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cql8nn1xv8yo

21 Aug 2019 ?The High Court in London will allow a proposed strike
over pay and conditions by UK-based Ryanair pilots on Thursday and Friday.
unquote
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49421426
5 Aug 2023 ?Belgium-based Ryanair pilots scheduled strike action across
August 14 and 15, affecting more than 80 flights and leading to a large
backlog and ...
unquote
https://www.airport-technology.com/news/belgian-pilots-strike-ryanair-break-agreement/

Well let's see what this "chap" has to say on the matter, shall we ?
This being Irish Transport Minister Leo Varadkar, who later went
on to become Taoiseach. But then the Irish Transport Minister,
what would he know ?
quote
"The Ryanair offer and at least the remedies that are being
reported are not sufficient in our view, so we won't support
their bid and, in addition, won't co-operate with their remedies
package," Transport Minister Leo Varadkar told journalists.
"The Commission will make its own decision, but we have given
our views and they are around connectivity, competition and
employment. We don't see any advantages for Ireland in what's
being proposed and we see very significant potential risks."
unquote
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/9754301/Irish-government-to-block-Ryanair-bid-for-Aer-Lingus.html?onwardjourney=584162_v1

Post by Martin Harran
And it was about preventing a monopoly, SFA to do with how Ryanair
treat their employees.

Not at all what Varadkar said; as I recall it, the only worry
concerning empoloyment was the jobs that would be shed from the
seriously overstaffed Aer Lingus. BTW, monopoly prevention is meant
for *consumer protection*, nothing to do with improving the lot of
employees.

Post by michael adams
<snip>
It really is very simple.

MA assumption time ….

Post by michael adams
One of the great economies you and
others cite for Ryanair's profitability is faster turnaround times
at airports. So that rather than have them sitting on the tarmac
the planes are in the sky. So that say they make four trips a day
instead of three.
But this totally overlooks the fact that all planes have a finite
lifespan in terms of actual flying hours. With Ryanair coming from
a leasing background, we can be sure that just about the only
people on proper wages will be the maintenance staff; whether
contractors or not. There'll be no skimping there. But the fact remains
that whether making three trips a day or four those planes can only
make the same number of trips between maintenance stops and over their
entire lifetime

Perhaps you should try to have a word with Michael O'Leary to tell him
that his financial strategy for running a successful airline isn't
that great.

Post by michael adams
However, the same doesn't go for the cabin crew and the pilots
who are basically being worked to the bone. So that while crews
on other airlines are off down the walkways and into rest
rooms to take a break between flights with cleaning crews
doing all the work, Ryanair crews and pilots possibly don't leave
the planes at all. It's get one lot of passengers off, then out
with the buckets and sponges, wipe up all the sick and
clean the lavatories then on with the next lot. This is simply
because unlike with planes which need to be looked after, *staff
can be worked to the bone*, until they finally decide to leave
of their own accord. As there's always plenty more where
they come from. It would be interesting to know the average
age of Ryanair staff and the burnout rate compared with more
conventional airlines.

Yes, it would be useful to have some *facts* rather than your rants,
that's why I asked you originally for evidence to back up your claims
which you have been unable to produce.

Post by michael adams
However just like people who go on buying ò T shirts and ñ0
pairs of jeans despite the strong suspicion that for that price
they must be being made by 12 year olds working 60 hours a week
( whereas ø0 jeans are made by 14 year olds only working a
40 hour week) * for obvious reasons people who fly Ryanair
can't admit to themselves that their low fares are at the
cost of human exploitation and people being worked to the
bone for a couple of years.

WOW, that's some jump, even for you.

Post by michael adams
Its just easier to look the other way, isn't it ?
And indeed maybe people who are in a state of constant exhaustion
with nothing else to look forward to, really do give the impression
that they hate just about everything, and everybody.

I don't know exactly how many flights I have made with Ryanair over
the year, probably hundreds and I don't recall ever, not even once,
getting the impression of staff hating hate just about everything, and
everybody. FWIW, I have found as a general rule that people react to
how you treat them; I always treat service people with friendly
courtesy and generally get the same in return. I don't find Ryanair
employees different from any other group but maybe that's just me

Post by michael adams
bb

billy bookcase

2025-01-27 15:56:25 UTC

"Martin Harran" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
snip

Post by Martin Harran
But you haven't lost your ability to make assumptions and treat them
as fact.

What assumptions ?

I've made statements which I've backed up with links containing actual facts.

Post by Martin Harran
It was the The European Union's competition authority , not the Irish
Government - do try to keep up, old chap.
https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2013/0227/369828-eu-blocks-ryanair-takeover-deal-for-aer-lingus/

Well let's see what this "chap" has to say on the matter, shall we ?
This being Irish Transport Minister Leo Varadkar, who later went
on to become Taoiseach. But then the Irish Transport Minister,
what would he know ?
quote
"The Ryanair offer and at least the remedies that are being
reported are not sufficient in our view, so we won't support
their bid and, in addition, won't co-operate with their remedies
package," Transport Minister Leo Varadkar told journalists.
"The Commission will make its own decision, but we have given
our views and they are around connectivity, competition and
employment. We don't see any advantages for Ireland in what's
being proposed and we see very significant potential risks."
unquote
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/9754301/Irish-government-to-block-Ryanair-bid-for-Aer-Lingus.html?onwardjourney=584162_v1

Post by Martin Harran
And it was about preventing a monopoly, SFA to do with how Ryanair
treat their employees.

Not at all what Varadkar said; as I recall it,

So you're claiming that he was misquoted are you ?

In an actual linked quote. And would much prefer people to accept
your own version of what Vardkar said ?

Post by Martin Harran
the only worry
concerning employment was the jobs that would be shed from the
seriously overstaffed Aer Lingus. BTW, monopoly prevention is meant
for *consumer protection*, nothing to do with improving the lot of
employees.

In this context "monopoly" meant what I intended it to mean. That a merger
would have given O'Leary a monopoly on hiring in Ireland. Which it would,

Otherwise you're totally missing the point. It was the Commission who
rejected the takeover on competition grounds.

Varadkar would have rejected it on the completely different grounds that

" We don't see any advantages for Ireland in what's being proposed and
we see very significant potential risks."

So was this the result of Varadkar simply "repeating shit he heard elsewhere"
or what ?

Perhaps you should try to have a word with Michael O'Leary to tell him
that his financial strategy for running a successful airline isn't
that great.

You're not very good at following an argument are you ?

The actual point comes in the *next* paragraph.

For Ryanair labour is expendable and doesn't have high maintenance
costs in terms of wages and conditions. Unlike aeroplanes
which need to be maintained throughout their whole of their working
lives, rather than being shown the door at 30.

Yes, it would be useful to have some *facts* rather than your rants,

They're not my "rants"

They're the complaints of the poor victims who find themselves in the
unfortunate position of working for Ryanair

quote

The unions are denouncing Ryanair's failure to respect local labour
laws covering issues such as the minimum wage and urge the company to
improve working conditions. In Belgium, the ACV and BBTK unions said
Ryanair was not respecting Belgian labour law for certain pre- and
post-flight work. Indeed, workers' contracts are not based on the
legal system of their country of residence but only on Ireland -
allowing the Irish company to be tight-lipped with its employees.

In addition, workers do not always have access to public benefits
in their own country because they are subject to Irish civil service law.

unquote

https://www.etui.org/news/ryanair-cabin-crew-strike-over-poor-pay-and-working-conditions

More inconvenient facts you're unable to face up to.

As with Varadkar's real reason for rejecting the takeover

" We don't see any advantages for Ireland in what's being proposed and
we see very significant potential risks."

Post by Martin Harran
that's why I asked you originally for evidence to back up your claims
which you have been unable to produce.

As a matter of interest, are you actually capable of making any statement
whatsoever that isn't not just questionable, but isn't manifestly untrue ?

WOW, that's some jump, even for you.

I don't know exactly how many flights I have made with Ryanair over
the year, probably hundreds

So you are to be further congratulated, along with your benefactor Ryanair
for your major contribution to global warming.

Post by Martin Harran
and I don't recall ever, not even once,
getting the impression of staff hating hate just about everything, and
everybody. FWIW, I have found as a general rule that people react to
how you treat them; I always treat service people with friendly
courtesy and generally get the same in return. I don't find Ryanair
employees different from any other group but maybe that's just me

That was Mr Ribbens' point. Who thought they looked as though they
positively hated him. As I've never flown on Ryanair myself I wouldn't know.

bb

Martin Harran

2025-01-28 08:54:22 UTC

Post by billy bookcase
snip

Post by Martin Harran
But you haven't lost your ability to make assumptions and treat them
as fact.

[...]

Post by billy bookcase
So you are to be further congratulated, along with your benefactor Ryanair
for your major contribution to global warming.

Neither have you lost your propensity for making daft accusations
about people who disagree with you. Thanks for reminding me why I long
ago gave up trying to have a rational discussion with you.

billy bookcase

2025-01-28 09:59:45 UTC

Post by billy bookcase
snip

Post by Martin Harran
But you haven't lost your ability to make assumptions and treat them
as fact.

[...]

Post by billy bookcase
So you are to be further congratulated, along with your benefactor Ryanair
for your major contribution to global warming.

Neither have you lost your propensity for making daft accusations
about people who disagree with you. Thanks for reminding me why I long
ago gave up trying to have a rational discussion with you.

One word. Four letters. First letter "J".

Maybe you should try it some time.

And then like all these Ryanair trips you've been making, it might open
up a whole new world to you.

bb

Simon Parker

2025-01-28 11:46:19 UTC

Post by Jon Ribbens
The usual. You don't expect top tier customer service from a budget
airline, but it would be nice if the staff didn't act like they
actively hate you.

Ryanair can't buy aeroplanes cheaper than anyone else;

It may surprise you to learn that aircraft do not have a published price
list and that the price paid for each individual plane varies according
to the terms of the order which are negotiated on an individual basis.
(For example, assume RyanAir are negotiating for an option to purchase
300 aircraft, 150 of which are definite and 150 of which are optional
with delivery spread over a decade. Do you truly believe they will pay
the same price per aircraft as a smaller carrier purchasing, say, 10
planes over the next decade? Additionally, should market forces change,
the price of those 150 optional aircraft may be renegotiated prior to
being converted to firm orders.)

Michael O'Leary is acknowledged as one of the shrewdest operators in the
aviation industry. The last time RyanAir was negotiating to upgrade
their fleet, he had Boeing executives in one room and Airbus executives
in another. Each time one team of executives came up with a better
offer, he took it to the other team of executives to see if they could
beat it. He repeated this process until the other team could not better
the offer thereby assuring he got the absolute best price.

Additionally, he has an uncanny knack of predicting the demise of his
competitors and often secures options to purchase their aircraft prior
to their collapse.

In short, he very much *does* buy aeroplanes cheaper than anyone else.

Post by billy bookcase
they cant buy
aviation fuel any cheaper than anyone else.

Another misunderstanding of yours regarding the aviation industry, I'm
afraid. RyanAir bulk buy their fuel at a fixed price, rather than
paying the current rate for it, which is subject to great fluctuation.
RyanAir tend to buy in quantities that are multiples of 500 tonnes at a
time.

And, as with his acquisition of aircraft, Mr O'Leary is similarly shrewd
in seeming to know when to place an order for 500 tonnes of fuel.

Similarly, therefore, they *do* buy aviation fuel cheaper than many of
their competitors.

Post by billy bookcase
The only way they can
compete is by paying lower airport charges, and lower wages.

Given that your first two contentions were completely wrong, these are
by no means "the only way" RyanAir can reduce their costs.

That said, BA pay pilots around £90K whereas RyanAir would pay the same
pilot around £70K.

Why do pilots work for £20K less at RyanAir? Working for BA means
they're likely to fly long distance international some of the time which
means they are away from home a lot. RyanAir, by contrast, offer a
lifestyle which appeals to some where they can live a short drive away
from the airport which is considered their hub, and arrive a short time
before departure which is unheard of in the larger airlines, also
getting home every night, no later than 9pm in most cases.

Some pilots like flying all over the world for a prestige carrier.
Others are happy to be paid less for a simpler lifestyle which includes
sleeping in their own bed every night.

Many staff are at RyanAir because they want to be there, (like the
pilots above). Sure trainee pilots, are there whilst they gain
sufficient hours to move elsewhere and some cabin crew are using it as a
stepping stone. But many are there because they want to be there and
have no problem smiling when appropriate.

Regards

S.P.

Mark Goodge

2025-01-28 12:30:19 UTC

Post by Simon Parker
That said, BA pay pilots around £90K whereas RyanAir would pay the same
pilot around £70K.
Why do pilots work for £20K less at RyanAir? Working for BA means
they're likely to fly long distance international some of the time which
means they are away from home a lot. RyanAir, by contrast, offer a
lifestyle which appeals to some where they can live a short drive away
from the airport which is considered their hub, and arrive a short time
before departure which is unheard of in the larger airlines, also
getting home every night, no later than 9pm in most cases.
Some pilots like flying all over the world for a prestige carrier.
Others are happy to be paid less for a simpler lifestyle which includes
sleeping in their own bed every night.

A friend's son is a pilot for easyJet; he enjoys it for precisely those
reasons. He usually sleeps in his own bed at night, he works reasonably
predictable hours and he gets free staff tickets for himself and his family
to places that he and his family like to go on holiday (they own a villa in
Greece). The additional money he'd get flying for a long-haul carrier
wouldn't make up for the loss of those benefits.

On the other hand, an acquaintance of mine is a pilot for Virgin Atlantic.
He enjoys the fact that he's in the upper tier of pilot salaries, which
funds his lifestyle. Although he spends more nights away from home, he has
longer breaks in between shifts which he uses to indulge his (possibly
stereotypical) hobby of fast cars. And, as a single man, he finds that
answering the question "what do you do for a living?" with "pilot for Virgin
Atlantic" is a near-guaranteed pull in the bar.

Horses for courses, indeed.

Mark

billy bookcase

2025-01-28 14:49:55 UTC

Post by Jon Ribbens
The usual. You don't expect top tier customer service from a budget
airline, but it would be nice if the staff didn't act like they
actively hate you.

Ryanair can't buy aeroplanes cheaper than anyone else;

It may surprise you to learn that aircraft do not have a published price list and that
the price paid for each individual plane varies according to the terms of the order
which are negotiated on an individual basis. (For example, assume RyanAir are
negotiating for an option to purchase 300 aircraft, 150 of which are definite and 150
of which are optional with delivery spread over a decade. Do you truly believe they
will pay the same price per aircraft as a smaller carrier purchasing, say, 10 planes
over the next decade? Additionally, should market forces change, the price of those
150 optional aircraft may be renegotiated prior to being converted to firm orders.)
Michael O'Leary is acknowledged as one of the shrewdest operators in the aviation
industry. The last time RyanAir was negotiating to upgrade their fleet, he had Boeing
executives in one room and Airbus executives in another. Each time one team of
executives came up with a better offer, he took it to the other team of executives to
see if they could beat it. He repeated this process until the other team could not
better the offer thereby assuring he got the absolute best price.
Additionally, he has an uncanny knack of predicting the demise of his competitors and
often secures options to purchase their aircraft prior to their collapse.
In short, he very much *does* buy aeroplanes cheaper than anyone else.

Post by billy bookcase
they cant buy
aviation fuel any cheaper than anyone else.

Another misunderstanding of yours regarding the aviation industry, I'm afraid. RyanAir
bulk buy their fuel at a fixed price, rather than paying the current rate for it, which
is subject to great fluctuation. RyanAir tend to buy in quantities that are multiples
of 500 tonnes at a time.
And, as with his acquisition of aircraft, Mr O'Leary is similarly shrewd in seeming to
know when to place an order for 500 tonnes of fuel.
Similarly, therefore, they *do* buy aviation fuel cheaper than many of their
competitors.

Post by billy bookcase
The only way they can
compete is by paying lower airport charges, and lower wages.

Given that your first two contentions were completely wrong, these are by no means "the
only way" RyanAir can reduce their costs.
That said, BA pay pilots around £90K whereas RyanAir would pay the same pilot around
£70K.
Why do pilots work for £20K less at RyanAir? Working for BA means they're likely to
fly long distance international some of the time which means they are away from home a
lot. RyanAir, by contrast, offer a lifestyle which appeals to some where they can live
a short drive away from the airport which is considered their hub, and arrive a short
time before departure which is unheard of in the larger airlines, also getting home
every night, no later than 9pm in most cases.
Some pilots like flying all over the world for a prestige carrier. Others are happy to
be paid less for a simpler lifestyle which includes sleeping in their own bed every
night.

Many staff are at RyanAir because they want to be there, (like the pilots above). Sure
trainee pilots, are there whilst they gain sufficient hours

As they only ever fly the one "big" aeroplane right from the start, and
possibly over the sea, would flying hours ever be an issue when recruiting ?

to move elsewhere and some cabin crew are using it as a stepping stone. But many are
there because they want to be there and have no problem smiling when appropriate.

" Many staff are at RyanAir because they want to be there "

Whereas I would humbly wish to suggest that "all" staff are at Ryanair purely out
of *economic necessity*. As are airline staff everywhere. Along with loads
of other people. As I very much doubt that unlike in the legal profession there
are that many *pro bono* pilots, and cabin crews knocking about.

While given that they, like yourself and most other informed commentators
quite possibly recognise that

" Michael O'Leary is acknowledged as one of the shrewdest operators in the
aviation industry"

they will be only too aware of the fact that he won't be paying them a
penny more than he needs to. Regardless of their degree of "economic
necessity"..

Because if he can succeed in playing aircraft manufacturers off against one
another, as you so succinctly describe above. what chance do you think cabin
crews and pilots have when it comes to negotiating ?

Given the added attractions of premium airlines, overnight stays in hotels on
long haul;, more leisurely turn around times - as against being able to catch the
bus home from Zagreb airport it night, it might even be suggested that it should
be Ryanair who should be paying their pilots the £20 k premium and not the
other way around..

bb

Peter Johnson

2025-01-28 15:44:28 UTC

On Tue, 28 Jan 2025 11:46:19 +0000, Simon Parker

Post by Simon Parker

Post by Jon Ribbens
The usual. You don't expect top tier customer service from a budget
airline, but it would be nice if the staff didn't act like they
actively hate you.

Ryanair can't buy aeroplanes cheaper than anyone else;

It may surprise you to learn that aircraft do not have a published price
list and that the price paid for each individual plane varies according
to the terms of the order which are negotiated on an individual basis.
(For example, assume RyanAir are negotiating for an option to purchase
300 aircraft, 150 of which are definite and 150 of which are optional
with delivery spread over a decade. Do you truly believe they will pay
the same price per aircraft as a smaller carrier purchasing, say, 10
planes over the next decade? Additionally, should market forces change,
the price of those 150 optional aircraft may be renegotiated prior to
being converted to firm orders.)
Michael O'Leary is acknowledged as one of the shrewdest operators in the
aviation industry. The last time RyanAir was negotiating to upgrade
their fleet, he had Boeing executives in one room and Airbus executives
in another. Each time one team of executives came up with a better
offer, he took it to the other team of executives to see if they could
beat it. He repeated this process until the other team could not better
the offer thereby assuring he got the absolute best price.
Additionally, he has an uncanny knack of predicting the demise of his
competitors and often secures options to purchase their aircraft prior
to their collapse.
In short, he very much *does* buy aeroplanes cheaper than anyone else.

Post by billy bookcase
they cant buy
aviation fuel any cheaper than anyone else.

An interesting analysis of a subject of which I know little, having
very few airmiles, probably less than 1,000, but I thought Ryanair
stayed with Boeing to avoid the cost of retraining pilots involved in
changing to Airbus. (I read that somwhere a long time ago.)

Post by Simon Parker
Another misunderstanding of yours regarding the aviation industry, I'm
afraid. RyanAir bulk buy their fuel at a fixed price, rather than
paying the current rate for it, which is subject to great fluctuation.
RyanAir tend to buy in quantities that are multiples of 500 tonnes at a
time.
And, as with his acquisition of aircraft, Mr O'Leary is similarly shrewd
in seeming to know when to place an order for 500 tonnes of fuel.
Similarly, therefore, they *do* buy aviation fuel cheaper than many of
their competitors.

Post by billy bookcase
The only way they can
compete is by paying lower airport charges, and lower wages.

Given that your first two contentions were completely wrong, these are
by no means "the only way" RyanAir can reduce their costs.
That said, BA pay pilots around £90K whereas RyanAir would pay the same
pilot around £70K.
Why do pilots work for £20K less at RyanAir? Working for BA means
they're likely to fly long distance international some of the time which
means they are away from home a lot. RyanAir, by contrast, offer a
lifestyle which appeals to some where they can live a short drive away
from the airport which is considered their hub, and arrive a short time
before departure which is unheard of in the larger airlines, also
getting home every night, no later than 9pm in most cases.
Some pilots like flying all over the world for a prestige carrier.
Others are happy to be paid less for a simpler lifestyle which includes
sleeping in their own bed every night.

Roland Perry

2025-01-22 12:10:17 UTC

Post by Nick Odell
This is all part of the process of "The Enshitification of
Everything"((C)Cory Doctorow) and Ryanair seem to be streets ahead in
the game.

...

Post by Nick Odell
So why do people fly with airlines that treat them this way? Does
perceived price really trump being treated fairly, decently and within
the relevant laws?

Most often because only those airlines fly between the airports the
passenger wants.

Or the alternative is a flight which is much more expensive (I'm booking
one today where it's £150ea on EasyJet, £250ea on BA) To some extent I
can use the £200 saved to mitigate the pain, although BA is almost as
bad as EasyJet nowadays.

--
Roland Perry

Theo

2025-01-18 12:27:46 UTC

What Ryanair say and what they do are different things - they always like
their name in the headlines.

They don't seem to have published details of how this will work in practice.
For example, how will it work for children who don't have a phone?
What if your battery is flat, perhaps because your flight was delayed?

I think we'd need to see the implementation details before we could make any
judgement as to whether there's a case for discrimination.

Theo

Nick Odell

2025-01-19 13:50:00 UTC

On 18 Jan 2025 12:27:46 +0000 (GMT), Theo

Post by Theo

What Ryanair say and what they do are different things - they always like
their name in the headlines.
They don't seem to have published details of how this will work in practice.
For example, how will it work for children who don't have a phone?
What if your battery is flat, perhaps because your flight was delayed?
I think we'd need to see the implementation details before we could make any
judgement as to whether there's a case for discrimination.

Further, it wasn't that long ago that Ryanair got a lot of publicity
for turning away passengers who came with boarding passes on their
phones after failing to inform them that certain Ryanair destinations
have paper-only boarding pass requirements.
<https://www.mirror.co.uk/travel/cheap-flights/ryanair-warning-digital-boarding-passes-32667861>
(This is not the article I was looking for because I think some angry
passengers were turned away quite recently and it made the news.)

Nick

Roland Perry

2025-01-20 14:32:02 UTC

All terribly fascinating. Last year I flew with Ryanair twice, and paid
extra for check-in at the aiport, because I didn't want to have to track
the other ways to do it (and risk leaving a bit of paper or important
email, at home).

In both cases I went to the desk specifically allocated to people doing
this thing, and both times they started by asking me "can I see your
boarding pass please".

No No No FFS NO! I'm here to collect a boarding pass.

In any event, the quickest way through security and at the boarding
gate, is to have a passport with a paper boarding pass tucked in. If
they want people to stop, get out their phone, log in, find the boarding
pass, it'll cripple the throughput at both.

--
Roland Perry

Davey

2025-01-20 15:17:26 UTC

On Mon, 20 Jan 2025 14:32:02 +0000

All terribly fascinating. Last year I flew with Ryanair twice, and
paid extra for check-in at the aiport, because I didn't want to have
to track the other ways to do it (and risk leaving a bit of paper or
important email, at home).
In both cases I went to the desk specifically allocated to people
doing this thing, and both times they started by asking me "can I see
your boarding pass please".
No No No FFS NO! I'm here to collect a boarding pass.
In any event, the quickest way through security and at the boarding
gate, is to have a passport with a paper boarding pass tucked in. If
they want people to stop, get out their phone, log in, find the
boarding pass, it'll cripple the throughput at both.

I hope you claimed back the extra you had paid for physical check-in,
when they could not manage it?

--
Davey.

Roland Perry

2025-01-22 12:12:58 UTC

Post by Davey
On Mon, 20 Jan 2025 14:32:02 +0000

All terribly fascinating. Last year I flew with Ryanair twice, and
paid extra for check-in at the aiport, because I didn't want to have
to track the other ways to do it (and risk leaving a bit of paper or
important email, at home).
In both cases I went to the desk specifically allocated to people
doing this thing, and both times they started by asking me "can I see
your boarding pass please".
No No No FFS NO! I'm here to collect a boarding pass.
In any event, the quickest way through security and at the boarding
gate, is to have a passport with a paper boarding pass tucked in. If
they want people to stop, get out their phone, log in, find the
boarding pass, it'll cripple the throughput at both.

I hope you claimed back the extra you had paid for physical check-in,
when they could not manage it?

They *did* manage it, but only after I insisted that they should.

--
Roland Perry

Dave Holland

2025-01-21 13:19:12 UTC