Ex Employer not providing P45

[Bookworm]

I have a friend who left her job for a new one some 3 months ago and,
despite many phone calls to her ex-employer and a recorded delivery
letter requesting it, still has not provided a P45. I know this
subject has been posted here before but no one has come up with the
definitive answer. The CAB told her to ring the Local Tax Office,which
she did, but when she told the guy at the Tax office about it he
avoided saying what they could do.

I would have thought that HMRC would have liked to pursue it in case
the ex-employer was deducting tax from her and not passing it on?

She is on an Emergency Tax Code with her new employer and it is
crippling her wages.

Is there any way to force the ex-employer to produce the document?

Merryterry

[Peter Crosland]

Post by Bookworm
I have a friend who left her job for a new one some 3 months ago and,
despite many phone calls to her ex-employer and a recorded delivery
letter requesting it, still has not provided a P45. I know this
subject has been posted here before but no one has come up with the
definitive answer. The CAB told her to ring the Local Tax Office,which
she did, but when she told the guy at the Tax office about it he
avoided saying what they could do.
I would have thought that HMRC would have liked to pursue it in case
the ex-employer was deducting tax from her and not passing it on?
She is on an Emergency Tax Code with her new employer and it is
crippling her wages.
Is there any way to force the ex-employer to produce the document?

Try a formal written complaint to HMRC.

[Robin]

Post by Peter Crosland
Try a formal written complaint to HMRC.

I am unclear what the complaint would be about - or in other words what
it is that HMRC should have done but have failed to do? HMRC have no
power to force the ex-emloyer to provide the P45. They could in
principle try to impose a penalty on the ex-employer for failure to
comply with the PAYE regulations whch require the issue of a P45. But
such penalties have been as rare as hens' teeth for good reasons. One
is that they are hard to prove: many times employees claim not to have
been give a P45 when they have lost it. I don't say that is the case
for the OP's friend but it does happen.

I suggest the better course would be for the OP's friend to ask HMRC to
expedite the issue of a revised code to the new employer; and ask them
if that can take account of the "P45" the ex-employer sent them. If she
has her last payslip from her former job it might be worth her offering
to give them a copy of that (but she should hang on to the original).

That said, I am a little surprised that an "emergency tax code" is
"crippling her wages". The emergency code just deducts tax on a
non-cumulative basis using the personal allowance. These days not many
people are entitled to much if anything more than the personal
allowance. Are you sure it is not a "basic rate code"? If so, she may
have answered wrongly the questions on the P46. Or we may need to know
more about her circumstances.

[tim.....]

Post by Bookworm
I have a friend who left her job for a new one some 3 months ago and,
despite many phone calls to her ex-employer and a recorded delivery
letter requesting it, still has not provided a P45. I know this
subject has been posted here before but no one has come up with the
definitive answer. The CAB told her to ring the Local Tax Office,which
she did, but when she told the guy at the Tax office about it he
avoided saying what they could do.
I would have thought that HMRC would have liked to pursue it in case
the ex-employer was deducting tax from her and not passing it on?
She is on an Emergency Tax Code with her new employer and it is
crippling her wages.
Is there any way to force the ex-employer to produce the document?

a perfectly normal situation

fill in a P46 and wait, is the solution

tim

[John]

Post by Bookworm
I have a friend who left her job for a new one some 3 months ago and,
despite many phone calls to her ex-employer and a recorded delivery
letter requesting it, still has not provided a P45. I know this
subject has been posted here before but no one has come up with the
definitive answer. The CAB told her to ring the Local Tax Office,which
she did, but when she told the guy at the Tax office about it he
avoided saying what they could do.
I would have thought that HMRC would have liked to pursue it in case
the ex-employer was deducting tax from her and not passing it on?
She is on an Emergency Tax Code with her new employer and it is
crippling her wages.
Is there any way to force the ex-employer to produce the document?

The new employer should have got her to fill out a P46 form, ticking
Box B," This is now my only job, but since 6th April I have had
another job" She would have then been stopped the normal tax on a week
one basis.

What's on her wage slips, it should be 810L/W1 If it's BR then she
may have inadvertantly ticked Box C, "I have another job"

[Bookworm]

Post by John

Post by Bookworm
I have a friend who left her job for a new one some 3 months ago and,
despite many phone calls to her ex-employer and a recorded delivery
letter requesting it, still has not provided a P45. I know this
subject has been posted here before but no one has come up with the
definitive answer. The CAB told her to ring the Local Tax Office,which
she did, but when she told the guy at the Tax office about it he
avoided saying what they could do.
I would have thought that HMRC would have liked to pursue it in case
the ex-employer was deducting tax from her and not passing it on?
She is on an Emergency Tax Code with her new employer and it is
crippling her wages.
Is there any way to force the ex-employer to produce the document?

The new employer should have got her to fill out a P46 form, ticking
Box B," This is now my only job, but since 6th April I have had
another job" She would have then been stopped the normal tax on a week
one basis.
What's on her wage slips, it should be 810L/W1   If it's BR then she
may have inadvertantly ticked Box C, "I have another job"
--
John

At the time the P46 was filled in she did have another job, (there was
a few weeks overlap). Nobody told her to fill ijn a new P46 with a
different box filled in. The BR tax code she was given for the new job
does not include any Personal Allowance and is a straight deduction of
20% of wages. She has phoned the Tax office and explained and they
have given her a code of 810/L but I dont know about the W1.

There must be some way of forcing her ex-employer to produce the P45
if it is the law. Small Claims Court? This employer was miffed at her
leaving and is getting her own back.

Merryterry, (aka Bookworm)

[Robin]

Post by Bookworm
At the time the P46 was filled in she did have another job, (there was
a few weeks overlap). Nobody told her to fill ijn a new P46 with a
different box filled in. The BR tax code she was given for the new job
does not include any Personal Allowance and is a straight deduction of
20% of wages. She has phoned the Tax office and explained and they
have given her a code of 810/L but I dont know about the W1.

My previous comments were based on her having left her job (singular).
Given she had a second job when she started her new job it seems all
went as it should : with no P45 and another job she should have
completed the P46 accordingly and started with code BR. And HMRC seem
to have reaxcted properly to her now having just one job by issuing code
810L. But it would probably be wrong to operate that code on a
cumulative basis. She has had 2 (or more) other jobs in the tax year.
So some of her personal allowance has already been "used" against income
from those other jobs and should not be allowed again against earnings
in her new job. Using the code on a cumulative code would very probably
lead to her ending the year with a significant underpayment.

Post by Bookworm
There must be some way of forcing her ex-employer to produce the P45
if it is the law. Small Claims Court? This employer was miffed at her
leaving and is getting her own back.

IIRC she cannot sue as there is no contract between the employee and
employer as regards a P45. Issuing the form is a statutory obligation
placed on the employer.

I have a vague recollection that in theory an application could be made
to the High Court for an order requiring the employer to issue a P45 but
that it had never been attempted in practice since PAYE was introduced,
and was very likely to be an expensive mistake.

HMRC may pursue the employer if there are other areas of
non-compliance - eg not making returns to them or not paying over to
them the tax (and NICs) deducted. But alleged failure to issue a P45 to
one employee is not enough to justify the cost of an investigation.

[Percy Picacity]

Post by Robin

Post by Bookworm
At the time the P46 was filled in she did have another job, (there was
a few weeks overlap). Nobody told her to fill ijn a new P46 with a
different box filled in. The BR tax code she was given for the new job
does not include any Personal Allowance and is a straight deduction of
20% of wages. She has phoned the Tax office and explained and they
have given her a code of 810/L but I dont know about the W1.

My previous comments were based on her having left her job (singular).
Given she had a second job when she started her new job it seems all
went as it should : with no P45 and another job she should have
completed the P46 accordingly and started with code BR. And HMRC seem
to have reaxcted properly to her now having just one job by issuing code
810L. But it would probably be wrong to operate that code on a
cumulative basis. She has had 2 (or more) other jobs in the tax year.
So some of her personal allowance has already been "used" against income
from those other jobs and should not be allowed again against earnings
in her new job. Using the code on a cumulative code would very probably
lead to her ending the year with a significant underpayment.

Post by Bookworm
There must be some way of forcing her ex-employer to produce the P45
if it is the law. Small Claims Court? This employer was miffed at her
leaving and is getting her own back.

IIRC she cannot sue as there is no contract between the employee and
employer as regards a P45. Issuing the form is a statutory obligation
placed on the employer.
I have a vague recollection that in theory an application could be made
to the High Court for an order requiring the employer to issue a P45 but
that it had never been attempted in practice since PAYE was introduced,
and was very likely to be an expensive mistake.
HMRC may pursue the employer if there are other areas of
non-compliance - eg not making returns to them or not paying over to
them the tax (and NICs) deducted. But alleged failure to issue a P45 to
one employee is not enough to justify the cost of an investigation.

If she has no complications like taxable expenses etc then I would have
thought that all the necessary information would be on her last
payslip. Combined with the P60 she should get in a few months she will
be able to claim any excess tax back if she missed a few weeks of
personal allowance.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Percy Picacity
Combined with the P60 she should get in a few months

But without P45, the P60 (from her new employer) won't include details
of her time with the intransigent employer, so shouldn't be of any help
in calculating her tax liability.

[Bookworm]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Percy Picacity
Combined with the P60 she should get in a few months

But without P45, the P60 (from her new employer) won't include details
of her time with the intransigent employer, so shouldn't be of any help
in calculating her tax liability.
--
Roland Perry

Thank you Roland. That is my point. Everything revolves around getting
a P45 from ex-employer to get her correct PAYE now. I am amazed at
HMRC taking such a relaxed attitude. If it was the employee owing them
£0.2p I bet they would be chasing. As it is an Employer they dont
bother!

Bookworm

[Robin]

Post by Bookworm
Thank you Roland. That is my point. Everything revolves around getting
a P45 from ex-employer to get her correct PAYE now. I am amazed at
HMRC taking such a relaxed attitude. If it was the employee owing them
£0.2p I bet they would be chasing. As it is an Employer they dont
bother!

HMRC will be able to calculate any under- or over-payment when they have
all the end of year returns from all her employers (their P14/P35
returns). If employers don't provide those HMRC will impose
penalties/chase them.

Bear in mind also please that HMRC have no way of telling if the
employer failed to provide your friend with the relevant part of the P45
or if your friend lost it. So what would you like them to do? Employ a
large number of additional investigators (which you would pay for by way
of higher taxes) with power to require employers and employees to take
lie detector tests[1]?

[Fredxx]

Post by Bookworm

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Percy Picacity
Combined with the P60 she should get in a few months

But without P45, the P60 (from her new employer) won't include details
of her time with the intransigent employer, so shouldn't be of any help
in calculating her tax liability.

Thank you Roland. That is my point. Everything revolves around getting
a P45 from ex-employer to get her correct PAYE now. I am amazed at
HMRC taking such a relaxed attitude. If it was the employee owing them
£0.2p I bet they would be chasing. As it is an Employer they dont
bother!

Everything revolves around your friend, in the absence of a P45, to
contact HMRC to ensure a correct notice of coding is sent to the new
employer.

No employer, nor HMRC, would care if the amount owing to then was a
trifling amount, unless there was some underlying unpleasant history.

[Percy Picacity]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Percy Picacity
Combined with the P60 she should get in a few months

But without P45, the P60 (from her new employer) won't include details
of her time with the intransigent employer, so shouldn't be of any help
in calculating her tax liability.

But her last payslip from her previous employer (which you snipped) will do so.

[Fredxx]

Post by Percy Picacity

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Percy Picacity
Combined with the P60 she should get in a few months

But without P45, the P60 (from her new employer) won't include details
of her time with the intransigent employer, so shouldn't be of any
help in calculating her tax liability.

But her last payslip from her previous employer (which you snipped) will do so.

I think Bookworm has an agenda to hit his friend's previous employer
with HMRC. However HMRC have lost staff and aren't going to bother with
trifling issues when there are more important issues.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Percy Picacity

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Percy Picacity
Combined with the P60 she should get in a few months

But without P45, the P60 (from her new employer) won't include
details of her time with the intransigent employer, so shouldn't be
of any help in calculating her tax liability.

But her last payslip from her previous employer (which you snipped) will do so.

I would have expected that between them (the OP, the employee, the CAB,
her new employer and the HMRC) they'd have come up with that idea
already, if she had such a payslip.

[Percy Picacity]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Percy Picacity

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Percy Picacity
Combined with the P60 she should get in a few months

But without P45, the P60 (from her new employer) won't include details
of her time with the intransigent employer, so shouldn't be of any help
in calculating her tax liability.

But her last payslip from her previous employer (which you snipped) will do so.

I would have expected that between them (the OP, the employee, the CAB,
her new employer and the HMRC) they'd have come up with that idea
already, if she had such a payslip.

From what I can tell from the OP and subsequent explanation, they have,
and she is now on the correct code. I think the OP merely thinks they
should have the P45 as a matter of principle. I am just saying that if
there is still a small adjustment to make for the time she was paid byi
two employers (and the adjustment may not be in the OP's friend's
favour) then the last pay slip will provide sufficient information
without the P45.

[Fredxx]

Post by Percy Picacity

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Percy Picacity

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Percy Picacity
Combined with the P60 she should get in a few months

But without P45, the P60 (from her new employer) won't include
details of her time with the intransigent employer, so shouldn't be
of any help in calculating her tax liability.

But her last payslip from her previous employer (which you snipped) will do so.

I would have expected that between them (the OP, the employee, the
CAB, her new employer and the HMRC) they'd have come up with that idea
already, if she had such a payslip.

From what I can tell from the OP and subsequent explanation, they have,
and she is now on the correct code. I think the OP merely thinks they
should have the P45 as a matter of principle. I am just saying that if
there is still a small adjustment to make for the time she was paid byi
two employers (and the adjustment may not be in the OP's friend's
favour) then the last pay slip will provide sufficient information
without the P45.

I would have thought the claim that a previous employer hasn't given an
ex-employee a P45 is pretty common, as it ensures that the new employer
wouldn't get to know what the new employee's pay was in their previous job.

I very much doubt that a new employer would go by a payslip as it has no
legal standing. If I was the said employer I would still wait for a
notice of coding from HMRC.

[Percy Picacity]

Post by Fredxx

Post by Percy Picacity

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Percy Picacity

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Percy Picacity
Combined with the P60 she should get in a few months

But without P45, the P60 (from her new employer) won't include
details of her time with the intransigent employer, so shouldn't be
of any help in calculating her tax liability.

But her last payslip from her previous employer (which you snipped) will do so.

I would have expected that between them (the OP, the employee, the
CAB, her new employer and the HMRC) they'd have come up with that idea
already, if she had such a payslip.

From what I can tell from the OP and subsequent explanation, they have,
and she is now on the correct code. I think the OP merely thinks they
should have the P45 as a matter of principle. I am just saying that if
there is still a small adjustment to make for the time she was paid byi
two employers (and the adjustment may not be in the OP's friend's
favour) then the last pay slip will provide sufficient information
without the P45.

I would have thought the claim that a previous employer hasn't given an
ex-employee a P45 is pretty common, as it ensures that the new employer
wouldn't get to know what the new employee's pay was in their previous job.
I very much doubt that a new employer would go by a payslip as it has
no legal standing. If I was the said employer I would still wait for a
notice of coding from HMRC.

The OP says they have already phoned HMRC and sorted out her coding.
The debate is whether they still need the P45 for anything important.

[steve robinson]

Post by Fredxx

Post by Percy Picacity

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Percy Picacity

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Percy Picacity
Combined with the P60 she should get in a few months

But without P45, the P60 (from her new employer) won't include
details of her time with the intransigent employer, so

shouldn't be >>>>> of any help in calculating her tax liability.

Post by Fredxx

Post by Percy Picacity

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Percy Picacity
But her last payslip from her previous employer (which you

snipped) >>>> will do so.

Post by Fredxx

Post by Percy Picacity

Post by Roland Perry
I would have expected that between them (the OP, the employee, the
CAB, her new employer and the HMRC) they'd have come up with that

idea >>> already, if she had such a payslip.

Post by Fredxx

Post by Percy Picacity
From what I can tell from the OP and subsequent explanation, they

have, >> and she is now on the correct code. I think the OP merely
thinks they >> should have the P45 as a matter of principle. I am
just saying that if >> there is still a small adjustment to make for
the time she was paid byi >> two employers (and the adjustment may
not be in the OP's friend's >> favour) then the last pay slip will
provide sufficient information >> without the P45.

Post by Fredxx
I would have thought the claim that a previous employer hasn't
given an ex-employee a P45 is pretty common, as it ensures that the
new employer wouldn't get to know what the new employee's pay was
in their previous job.
I very much doubt that a new employer would go by a payslip as it
has no legal standing. If I was the said employer I would still
wait for a notice of coding from HMRC.

The OP says they have already phoned HMRC and sorted out her coding.
The debate is whether they still need the P45 for anything important.

Its not a major issue, the P45 is just helps the new employer with tax
deduction and stops the implementation of emergency tax codes.

[Robin]

Post by steve robinson
Its not a major issue, the P45 is just helps the new employer with tax
deduction and stops the implementation of emergency tax codes.

I agree it is not a major issue. The only thing I can think it *might*
affect is a claim for repayment of tax before the end of the current tax
year if the employee ceases employment. The P45 is evidence of the pay
and tax deducted in the employment. The final payslip is not equivalent
to the P45 as there is no way of telling that it was the *final*
payslip. And even there HMRC ought to have the information sent to them
by the employer (assuming the employer did do that of course).

There is also the issue of an early repayment claim after the end of the
tax year - "early" in that it's made before HMRC have received all the
end of year P35/P14 information from all the relevant employers. But
I *think* HMRC's procedures for early repayments called for P60s and
then used their own system for other employments, rather than P45s from
employees, for any employments not covered by the P60s. In other words
they used the information employers send to HMRC at the same time as
giving P45s to employees rather than the employee's P45. If that's
right (and I may well be misremembering, and my memories are definitely
past their sell by date) the lack of the P45 now matters not for those.

No doubt RTI will make much of this (and my memories of PAYE) redundant
as it brings PAYE zooming into the 21st century :)

[John]

On Fri, 18 Jan 2013 16:50:01 +0000, Percy Picacity

Post by Percy Picacity

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Percy Picacity
Combined with the P60 she should get in a few months

But without P45, the P60 (from her new employer) won't include details
of her time with the intransigent employer, so shouldn't be of any help
in calculating her tax liability.

But her last payslip from her previous employer (which you snipped) will do so.

The new employer will be unable to use the last wageslip from old
employer to calculate tax. They must either have a P45 or P46, which
they had, and work on that.

Subsequently that can only be altered by HMRC issuing a notice of new
coding to the current employer. Once received, the overpaid tax will
be credited on the next payday.

[Phil W Lee]

Post by Robin

Post by Bookworm
At the time the P46 was filled in she did have another job, (there was
a few weeks overlap). Nobody told her to fill ijn a new P46 with a
different box filled in. The BR tax code she was given for the new job
does not include any Personal Allowance and is a straight deduction of
20% of wages. She has phoned the Tax office and explained and they
have given her a code of 810/L but I dont know about the W1.

My previous comments were based on her having left her job (singular).
Given she had a second job when she started her new job it seems all
went as it should : with no P45 and another job she should have
completed the P46 accordingly and started with code BR. And HMRC seem
to have reaxcted properly to her now having just one job by issuing code
810L. But it would probably be wrong to operate that code on a
cumulative basis. She has had 2 (or more) other jobs in the tax year.
So some of her personal allowance has already been "used" against income
from those other jobs and should not be allowed again against earnings
in her new job. Using the code on a cumulative code would very probably
lead to her ending the year with a significant underpayment.

Post by Bookworm
There must be some way of forcing her ex-employer to produce the P45
if it is the law. Small Claims Court? This employer was miffed at her
leaving and is getting her own back.

IIRC she cannot sue as there is no contract between the employee and
employer as regards a P45. Issuing the form is a statutory obligation
placed on the employer.

I don't see this at all.
There is no contract between the victim of a motoring incident and the
driver of the motor vehicle that hit them, but they can still sue the
driver for compensation if they don't give full insurance details,
which is a statutory obligation placed on the driver.

Post by Robin
I have a vague recollection that in theory an application could be made
to the High Court for an order requiring the employer to issue a P45 but
that it had never been attempted in practice since PAYE was introduced,
and was very likely to be an expensive mistake.
HMRC may pursue the employer if there are other areas of
non-compliance - eg not making returns to them or not paying over to
them the tax (and NICs) deducted. But alleged failure to issue a P45 to
one employee is not enough to justify the cost of an investigation.

[Percy Picacity]

Post by Phil W Lee

Post by Robin

Post by Bookworm
At the time the P46 was filled in she did have another job, (there was
a few weeks overlap). Nobody told her to fill ijn a new P46 with a
different box filled in. The BR tax code she was given for the new job
does not include any Personal Allowance and is a straight deduction of
20% of wages. She has phoned the Tax office and explained and they
have given her a code of 810/L but I dont know about the W1.

My previous comments were based on her having left her job (singular).
Given she had a second job when she started her new job it seems all
went as it should : with no P45 and another job she should have
completed the P46 accordingly and started with code BR. And HMRC seem
to have reaxcted properly to her now having just one job by issuing code
810L. But it would probably be wrong to operate that code on a
cumulative basis. She has had 2 (or more) other jobs in the tax year.
So some of her personal allowance has already been "used" against income
from those other jobs and should not be allowed again against earnings
in her new job. Using the code on a cumulative code would very probably
lead to her ending the year with a significant underpayment.

Post by Bookworm
There must be some way of forcing her ex-employer to produce the P45
if it is the law. Small Claims Court? This employer was miffed at her
leaving and is getting her own back.

IIRC she cannot sue as there is no contract between the employee and
employer as regards a P45. Issuing the form is a statutory obligation
placed on the employer.

I don't see this at all.
There is no contract between the victim of a motoring incident and the
driver of the motor vehicle that hit them, but they can still sue the
driver for compensation if they don't give full insurance details,
which is a statutory obligation placed on the driver.

They can sue them for compensation if they have negligently caused
loss. Whether they give insurance details makes no difference to
whether they can sue them. However, having he insurance details helps
in practical terms to identify the driver and progress the claim. If
they fail to supply insurance details they have committed a criminal
offence, but it makes no difference to whether they are liable for
damages.

[Phil W Lee]

Post by Percy Picacity

Post by Phil W Lee

Post by Robin

Post by Bookworm
At the time the P46 was filled in she did have another job, (there was
a few weeks overlap). Nobody told her to fill ijn a new P46 with a
different box filled in. The BR tax code she was given for the new job
does not include any Personal Allowance and is a straight deduction of
20% of wages. She has phoned the Tax office and explained and they
have given her a code of 810/L but I dont know about the W1.

My previous comments were based on her having left her job (singular).
Given she had a second job when she started her new job it seems all
went as it should : with no P45 and another job she should have
completed the P46 accordingly and started with code BR. And HMRC seem
to have reaxcted properly to her now having just one job by issuing code
810L. But it would probably be wrong to operate that code on a
cumulative basis. She has had 2 (or more) other jobs in the tax year.
So some of her personal allowance has already been "used" against income
from those other jobs and should not be allowed again against earnings
in her new job. Using the code on a cumulative code would very probably
lead to her ending the year with a significant underpayment.

Post by Bookworm
There must be some way of forcing her ex-employer to produce the P45
if it is the law. Small Claims Court? This employer was miffed at her
leaving and is getting her own back.

IIRC she cannot sue as there is no contract between the employee and
employer as regards a P45. Issuing the form is a statutory obligation
placed on the employer.

I don't see this at all.
There is no contract between the victim of a motoring incident and the
driver of the motor vehicle that hit them, but they can still sue the
driver for compensation if they don't give full insurance details,
which is a statutory obligation placed on the driver.

They can sue them for compensation if they have negligently caused
loss. Whether they give insurance details makes no difference to
whether they can sue them. However, having he insurance details helps
in practical terms to identify the driver and progress the claim. If
they fail to supply insurance details they have committed a criminal
offence, but it makes no difference to whether they are liable for
damages.

While true, that's also irrelevant to the point that no contract
needed to be in place, just a statutory obligation, which failure to
comply with has resulted in loss to a third party.

[Percy Picacity]

Post by Phil W Lee

Post by Percy Picacity

Post by Phil W Lee

Post by Robin

Post by Bookworm
At the time the P46 was filled in she did have another job, (there was
a few weeks overlap). Nobody told her to fill ijn a new P46 with a
different box filled in. The BR tax code she was given for the new job
does not include any Personal Allowance and is a straight deduction of
20% of wages. She has phoned the Tax office and explained and they
have given her a code of 810/L but I dont know about the W1.

My previous comments were based on her having left her job (singular).
Given she had a second job when she started her new job it seems all
went as it should : with no P45 and another job she should have
completed the P46 accordingly and started with code BR. And HMRC seem
to have reaxcted properly to her now having just one job by issuing code
810L. But it would probably be wrong to operate that code on a
cumulative basis. She has had 2 (or more) other jobs in the tax year.
So some of her personal allowance has already been "used" against income
from those other jobs and should not be allowed again against earnings
in her new job. Using the code on a cumulative code would very probably
lead to her ending the year with a significant underpayment.

Post by Bookworm
There must be some way of forcing her ex-employer to produce the P45
if it is the law. Small Claims Court? This employer was miffed at her
leaving and is getting her own back.

IIRC she cannot sue as there is no contract between the employee and
employer as regards a P45. Issuing the form is a statutory obligation
placed on the employer.

I don't see this at all.
There is no contract between the victim of a motoring incident and the
driver of the motor vehicle that hit them, but they can still sue the
driver for compensation if they don't give full insurance details,
which is a statutory obligation placed on the driver.

They can sue them for compensation if they have negligently caused
loss. Whether they give insurance details makes no difference to
whether they can sue them. However, having he insurance details helps
in practical terms to identify the driver and progress the claim. If
they fail to supply insurance details they have committed a criminal
offence, but it makes no difference to whether they are liable for
damages.

While true, that's also irrelevant to the point that no contract
needed to be in place, just a statutory obligation, which failure to
comply with has resulted in loss to a third party.

I completely fail to see how in your example the failure to comply with
a statutory obligation led to any loss to the third party. In that
respect it resembles the failure in the OP which also led to no loss.

[Fredxx]

Post by Bookworm

Post by John

Post by Bookworm
I have a friend who left her job for a new one some 3 months ago and,
despite many phone calls to her ex-employer and a recorded delivery
letter requesting it, still has not provided a P45. I know this
subject has been posted here before but no one has come up with the
definitive answer. The CAB told her to ring the Local Tax Office,which
she did, but when she told the guy at the Tax office about it he
avoided saying what they could do.
I would have thought that HMRC would have liked to pursue it in case
the ex-employer was deducting tax from her and not passing it on?
She is on an Emergency Tax Code with her new employer and it is
crippling her wages.
Is there any way to force the ex-employer to produce the document?

The new employer should have got her to fill out a P46 form, ticking
Box B," This is now my only job, but since 6th April I have had
another job" She would have then been stopped the normal tax on a week
one basis.
What's on her wage slips, it should be 810L/W1 If it's BR then she
may have inadvertantly ticked Box C, "I have another job"
--
John

At the time the P46 was filled in she did have another job, (there was
a few weeks overlap). Nobody told her to fill ijn a new P46 with a
different box filled in. The BR tax code she was given for the new job
does not include any Personal Allowance and is a straight deduction of
20% of wages. She has phoned the Tax office and explained and they
have given her a code of 810/L but I dont know about the W1.
There must be some way of forcing her ex-employer to produce the P45
if it is the law. Small Claims Court? This employer was miffed at her
leaving and is getting her own back.
Merryterry, (aka Bookworm)

It is HMRC's job to provide a new tax code to the new employer. In
practice your friend might have had to endure one months pay taxed at
BR, but then should get all of the extra tax back the following month.

Can you confirm that HMRC have been contacted and been asked to send a
notice of coding to her current employer?

There's no chance of any court action as your friend hasn't suffered any
pecuniary loss. She will get her money back eventually.

As you say there do seem to be issues with her ex-employer. It is
possible that there are also unfulfilled obligations from your friend.
Are you not able to contact your friend's ex-employer to smooth things out?

[Ian Jackson]

Post by Bookworm
There must be some way of forcing her ex-employer to produce the P45
if it is the law. Small Claims Court? This employer was miffed at her
leaving and is getting her own back.

Does the ex-employer have a legal duty to provide the P45 to the
ex-employee ? If so then surely the ex-employee can sue for specific
performance or damages.

[Robin]

Post by Ian Jackson
Does the ex-employer have a legal duty to provide the P45 to the
ex-employee ? If so then surely the ex-employee can sue for specific
performance or damages.

Can you please explain how an individual can "sue for specific
performance or damages" when the P45 is an obligation imposed by
statute, not by contract between the employee and employer?