Neighbour inserts overflow pipe in boundary wall - trespass / nuisance?

[Adrian Dodd]

Hi!

I am posting on behalf of an elderly friend who has a dispute with his
neighbour. I would be very grateful for any advice on the matter
since it has upset my friend considerably.

His neighbour has just had some plumbing work done. As part of that
work, a water pipe has been inserted through a boundary wall and into
my friend's tiny yard.

The neighbour never sought permission to insert this pipe, nor did he
even advise of the work. Furthermore, in the process of inserting the
pipe, a small area of cement render has been knocked off the boundary
wall.

I have examined the pipe and it is 15mm in diameter and made of
copper. It looks like an overflow pipe from a sink, a lavatory
cistern, or a heating boiler. The pipe protrudes about 8"-10" into my
friend's yard, directly above a fixed garden bench, at just over head
height.

The pipe is ugly, inconvenient and perhaps dangerous. The yard already
suffers from poor surface water drainage and my friend is worried that
water from the pipe could flood into his property. The pipe spoils my
friend's enjoyment of his yard, and he is annoyed about it, not least
because it was poked through without his permission. He does not wish
to have the pipe in his yard.

I just carried out a brief Google search, and I suspect that, legally,
this is a question of trespass and nuisance.

I understand that the neighbour has been disagreeable in the past, so
a delicate approach is desirable!

Any opinions greatly received!

Cheers,
Adrian

[Dave Baker]

Post by Adrian Dodd
Hi!
I am posting on behalf of an elderly friend who has a dispute with his
neighbour. I would be very grateful for any advice on the matter
since it has upset my friend considerably.
His neighbour has just had some plumbing work done. As part of that
work, a water pipe has been inserted through a boundary wall and into
my friend's tiny yard.
The neighbour never sought permission to insert this pipe, nor did he
even advise of the work. Furthermore, in the process of inserting the
pipe, a small area of cement render has been knocked off the boundary
wall.
I have examined the pipe and it is 15mm in diameter and made of
copper. It looks like an overflow pipe from a sink, a lavatory
cistern, or a heating boiler. The pipe protrudes about 8"-10" into my
friend's yard, directly above a fixed garden bench, at just over head
height.
The pipe is ugly, inconvenient and perhaps dangerous. The yard already
suffers from poor surface water drainage and my friend is worried that
water from the pipe could flood into his property. The pipe spoils my
friend's enjoyment of his yard, and he is annoyed about it, not least
because it was poked through without his permission. He does not wish
to have the pipe in his yard.
I just carried out a brief Google search, and I suspect that, legally,
this is a question of trespass and nuisance.
I understand that the neighbour has been disagreeable in the past, so
a delicate approach is desirable!
Any opinions greatly received!

No opinions needed as this is very basic fact, provided of course that what
your friend thinks is the boundary is indeed the boundary. If so it's
clearly a trespass into space the neighbour does not own and should not have
been done without consent.

[Rod]

Post by Adrian Dodd
Hi!
I am posting on behalf of an elderly friend who has a dispute with his
neighbour. I would be very grateful for any advice on the matter
since it has upset my friend considerably.
His neighbour has just had some plumbing work done. As part of that
work, a water pipe has been inserted through a boundary wall and into
my friend's tiny yard.
The neighbour never sought permission to insert this pipe, nor did he
even advise of the work. Furthermore, in the process of inserting the
pipe, a small area of cement render has been knocked off the boundary
wall.
I have examined the pipe and it is 15mm in diameter and made of
copper. It looks like an overflow pipe from a sink, a lavatory
cistern, or a heating boiler. The pipe protrudes about 8"-10" into my
friend's yard, directly above a fixed garden bench, at just over head
height.
The pipe is ugly, inconvenient and perhaps dangerous. The yard already
suffers from poor surface water drainage and my friend is worried that
water from the pipe could flood into his property. The pipe spoils my
friend's enjoyment of his yard, and he is annoyed about it, not least
because it was poked through without his permission. He does not wish
to have the pipe in his yard.
I just carried out a brief Google search, and I suspect that, legally,
this is a question of trespass and nuisance.
I understand that the neighbour has been disagreeable in the past, so
a delicate approach is desirable!
Any opinions greatly received!
Cheers,
Adrian

On a purely practical, plumbing approach, this sounds to be incorrect.

An overflow usually has the (additional) function of being a tell-tale.
If for example, a cold water tank is overfilling due to a worn valve,
dripping from this pipe should alert the occupier.

If the pipe exits into the next door yard, it sounds as if the occupier
would be unlikely to notice the drip-drip-drip and therefore be unlikely
to repair the valve. So, as a tell-tale, its use is severely curtailed
by its location.

It might contravene this

(4) Every storage cistern shall be fitted with-

(a) an overflow pipe, with a suitable means of warning of an
impending overflow, which excludes insects;

(from Statutory Instruments 1999 No. 1148 The Water Supply (Water
Fittings) Regulations 1999 - available at
<http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1999/99114802.htm> )

[ceres]

Post by Adrian Dodd
Hi!
I just carried out a brief Google search, and I suspect that, legally,
this is a question of trespass and nuisance.

Legally, you're right.

Post by Adrian Dodd
I understand that the neighbour has been disagreeable in the past, so
a delicate approach is desirable!

Then make one.

On the other hand, since it's quite clear he's a bully who will do
what he wants without regard to anyone else, a delicate approach may
well not work. If he can't be approached directly for fear of his
reaction and/or reprisals, probably what he needs is a solicitor's
letter and the threat of court action if he doesn't remove it pronto.

The difficulty with that of course is the fear of his reaction and/or
reprisals, so you're back to square one.

Neighbour disputes should be avoided at almost all cost. A polite but
firm personal approach in the first instance is probably what would be
desirable in normal circumstances telling him you're not happy and
want it removed. If it turns ugly on his part, then you have to
consider going down the legal route. If you do that, though, it may
constitute a neighbour dispute that would have to be declared if your
friend ever wants to sell up and move out.

Maybe the best option would be no communication but just a hacksaw and
a big dollop of wet cement (just repairing the damage to the wall of
course). In theory that could constitute criminal damage, but it's
unlikely to result in a legal action since it was illegally put there
in the first place. It has the added satisfaction that it may be
undetectable by the neighbour who would only find out about it after
he's got a very wet bathroom floor. How naughty!

When will he next be away?

[F Murtz]

Post by Adrian Dodd
Hi!
I am posting on behalf of an elderly friend who has a dispute with his
neighbour. I would be very grateful for any advice on the matter
since it has upset my friend considerably.
His neighbour has just had some plumbing work done. As part of that
work, a water pipe has been inserted through a boundary wall and into
my friend's tiny yard.
The neighbour never sought permission to insert this pipe, nor did he
even advise of the work. Furthermore, in the process of inserting the
pipe, a small area of cement render has been knocked off the boundary
wall.
I have examined the pipe and it is 15mm in diameter and made of
copper. It looks like an overflow pipe from a sink, a lavatory
cistern, or a heating boiler. The pipe protrudes about 8"-10" into my
friend's yard, directly above a fixed garden bench, at just over head
height.
The pipe is ugly, inconvenient and perhaps dangerous. The yard already
suffers from poor surface water drainage and my friend is worried that
water from the pipe could flood into his property. The pipe spoils my
friend's enjoyment of his yard, and he is annoyed about it, not least
because it was poked through without his permission. He does not wish
to have the pipe in his yard.
I just carried out a brief Google search, and I suspect that, legally,
this is a question of trespass and nuisance.
I understand that the neighbour has been disagreeable in the past, so
a delicate approach is desirable!
Any opinions greatly received!
Cheers,
Adrian

Solder a cap on the end of it

[The Real Doctor]

Post by F Murtz
Solder a cap on the end of it

Smear a bit of dowel with araldite and wedge it well inside the pipe.

Ian

[steve robinson]

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by F Murtz
Solder a cap on the end of it

Smear a bit of dowel with araldite and wedge it well inside the pipe.
Ian

Bad advice, if its connected to a pressure relief valve and thats generally the
case if its 15mm copper pipe then you could cause a seroius injury possibly
even kill someone .

Even if it simply wrecked the boiler you would get a nice fat bill landing on
your doorstep eventually and a criminal record

--

[The Real Doctor]

Post by steve robinson

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by F Murtz
Solder a cap on the end of it

Smear a bit of dowel with araldite and wedge it well inside the pipe.

Bad advice, if its connected to a pressure relief valve and thats generally the
case if its 15mm copper pipe then you could cause a seroius injury possibly
even kill someone .

Shoudn't have put the pipe somewhere it could have been damaged then,
should they? The isntaller may have some questions to answer.

Post by steve robinson
Even if it simply wrecked the boiler you would get a nice fat bill landing on
your doorstep eventually and a criminal record

Bills don't have to be paid, and criminal records require successful
prosecutions, which need proof. How, precisely, could it be proved who
wedged the bung up the pipe?

As a simpler alternative, perhaps a very heavy "cat" could jump onto
the pipe, unfortunately bending it through ninety degrees and thereby
crimping it flat.

Ian

[n***@definitelyinvalid.net]

On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:50:06 +0000, The Real Doctor

Post by The Real Doctor
How, precisely, could it be proved who
wedged the bung up the pipe?

Exactly. If I were the poster I would mention loudly in the local pub
that the poor old guy at no.XX was being troubled in this way and make
sure that many people heard me.
Which of the sympathetic listeners climbed in and did the job?

[steve robinson]

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by steve robinson

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by F Murtz
Solder a cap on the end of it

Smear a bit of dowel with araldite and wedge it well inside the pipe.

Bad advice, if its connected to a pressure relief valve and thats generally
the case if its 15mm copper pipe then you could cause a seroius injury
possibly even kill someone .

Shoudn't have put the pipe somewhere it could have been damaged then,
should they? The isntaller may have some questions to answer.

Post by steve robinson
Even if it simply wrecked the boiler you would get a nice fat bill landing
on your doorstep eventually and a criminal record

Bills don't have to be paid, and criminal records require successful
prosecutions, which need proof. How, precisely, could it be proved who
wedged the bung up the pipe?

If the op is the only one with access to the garden then its pretty obvious who
blocked the hole

I agrree bills dont have to be paid , but the following court action and
enforcement would get you your money

Post by The Real Doctor
As a simpler alternative, perhaps a very heavy "cat" could jump onto
the pipe, unfortunately bending it through ninety degrees and thereby
crimping it flat.
Ian

--

[CJM]

Post by steve robinson
If the op is the only one with access to the garden then its pretty obvious who
blocked the hole

Of course, you mean it 'seems pretty obvious' as opposed to 'is pretty
obvious'.

Naturally, anybody could have tampered with the pipe.

[Steve Walker]

Post by CJM

Post by steve robinson
If the op is the only one with access to the garden then its pretty obvious who
blocked the hole

Of course, you mean it 'seems pretty obvious' as opposed to 'is pretty
obvious'.
Naturally, anybody could have tampered with the pipe.

It's clear that other people (not under the occupier's control) can and do
enter that area. That's how we're discussing the appearance of a pipe. If
another unknown person removes the pipe, then the occupier can be held
responsible for neither of those events.

[John Stumbles]

Post by Steve Walker
It's clear that other people (not under the occupier's control) can and
do enter that area. That's how we're discussing the appearance of a
pipe. If another unknown person removes the pipe, then the occupier can
be held responsible for neither of those events.

I read the OP as saying that the pipe was installed by drilling a hole
through the wall from the inside (knocking an unsightly gob of brick off
the outside in so doing) and the pipe inserted from the inside. So no
access to the OP's friend's side of the wall needed.

[Steve Walker]

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by F Murtz
Solder a cap on the end of it

Smear a bit of dowel with araldite and wedge it well inside the pipe.

Just needs a simple stop-end fitting soldering on - a 5m job for anyone
familiar with plumbing.

[unknown]

Post by Steve Walker

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by F Murtz
Solder a cap on the end of it

Smear a bit of dowel with araldite and wedge it well inside the pipe.

Just needs a simple stop-end fitting soldering on - a 5m job for anyone
familiar with plumbing.

It doesn't even need that, a push-fit stop end can be put in place even
by someone who can't wield a blowtorch.

[The Real Doctor]

Post by unknown

Post by Steve Walker

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by F Murtz
Solder a cap on the end of it

Smear a bit of dowel with araldite and wedge it well inside the pipe.

Just needs a simple stop-end fitting soldering on - a 5m job for anyone
familiar with plumbing.

It doesn't even need that, a push-fit stop end can be put in place even
by someone who can't wield a blowtorch.

Much too easily undone!

Ian

[The Real Doctor]

Post by Steve Walker

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by F Murtz
Solder a cap on the end of it

Smear a bit of dowel with araldite and wedge it well inside the pipe.

Just needs a simple stop-end fitting soldering on - a 5m job for anyone
familiar with plumbing.

Yes, but that can be dealt with by sawing it off with half an inch of
the pipe - or just heating it up. An Araldited bung inside the wall
will required complete replacement of the pipe...

Ian

[n***@definitelyinvalid.net]

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 08:10:15 +0000, The Real Doctor

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by Steve Walker

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by F Murtz
Solder a cap on the end of it

Smear a bit of dowel with araldite and wedge it well inside the pipe.

Just needs a simple stop-end fitting soldering on - a 5m job for anyone
familiar with plumbing.

Yes, but that can be dealt with by sawing it off with half an inch of
the pipe - or just heating it up. An Araldited bung inside the wall
will required complete replacement of the pipe...

I'm sure that the OP would not be so unkind as to connect a garden
hose to the pipe for a few minutes...

[Steve Walker]

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by Steve Walker

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by F Murtz
Solder a cap on the end of it

Smear a bit of dowel with araldite and wedge it well inside the pipe.

Just needs a simple stop-end fitting soldering on - a 5m job for
anyone familiar with plumbing.

Yes, but that can be dealt with by sawing it off with half an inch of
the pipe - or just heating it up. An Araldited bung inside the wall
will required complete replacement of the pipe...

GPWM. Expanding styrene foam would be funny too.

[Walt]

Post by Adrian Dodd
Hi!
I am posting on behalf of an elderly friend who has a dispute with his
neighbour. I would be very grateful for any advice on the matter
since it has upset my friend considerably.
His neighbour has just had some plumbing work done. As part of that
work, a water pipe has been inserted through a boundary wall and into
my friend's tiny yard.
The neighbour never sought permission to insert this pipe, nor did he
even advise of the work. Furthermore, in the process of inserting the
pipe, a small area of cement render has been knocked off the boundary
wall.
I have examined the pipe and it is 15mm in diameter and made of
copper. It looks like an overflow pipe from a sink, a lavatory
cistern, or a heating boiler. The pipe protrudes about 8"-10" into my
friend's yard, directly above a fixed garden bench, at just over head
height.
The pipe is ugly, inconvenient and perhaps dangerous. The yard already
suffers from poor surface water drainage and my friend is worried that
water from the pipe could flood into his property. The pipe spoils my
friend's enjoyment of his yard, and he is annoyed about it, not least
because it was poked through without his permission. He does not wish
to have the pipe in his yard.
I just carried out a brief Google search, and I suspect that, legally,
this is a question of trespass and nuisance.
I understand that the neighbour has been disagreeable in the past, so
a delicate approach is desirable!
Any opinions greatly received!
Cheers,
Adrian

I would strongly recommend that your friend simply saws off all the
protruding part of the pipe and then crimps the end. Your friend does
not need to inform the neighbour that this action has been taken.

I very strongly recommend that legal action is NOT taken. It would
appear that the neighbour will not be amenable to any form of dispute
resolution and the whole affair could end up very messy and VERY
expensive.

Walt (I am not a lawyer)

[steve robinson]

Post by Walt

Post by Adrian Dodd
Hi!
I am posting on behalf of an elderly friend who has a dispute with his
neighbour. I would be very grateful for any advice on the matter
since it has upset my friend considerably.
His neighbour has just had some plumbing work done. As part of that
work, a water pipe has been inserted through a boundary wall and into
my friend's tiny yard.
The neighbour never sought permission to insert this pipe, nor did he
even advise of the work. Furthermore, in the process of inserting the
pipe, a small area of cement render has been knocked off the boundary
wall.
I have examined the pipe and it is 15mm in diameter and made of
copper. It looks like an overflow pipe from a sink, a lavatory
cistern, or a heating boiler. The pipe protrudes about 8"-10" into my
friend's yard, directly above a fixed garden bench, at just over head
height.
The pipe is ugly, inconvenient and perhaps dangerous. The yard already
suffers from poor surface water drainage and my friend is worried that
water from the pipe could flood into his property. The pipe spoils my
friend's enjoyment of his yard, and he is annoyed about it, not least
because it was poked through without his permission. He does not wish
to have the pipe in his yard.
I just carried out a brief Google search, and I suspect that, legally,
this is a question of trespass and nuisance.
I understand that the neighbour has been disagreeable in the past, so
a delicate approach is desirable!
Any opinions greatly received!
Cheers,
Adrian

I would strongly recommend that your friend simply saws off all the
protruding part of the pipe and then crimps the end. Your friend does
not need to inform the neighbour that this action has been taken.

Bad advice , it could be part of a pressure relief valve , by crimping the end
you are intefering with the saftey system possibly of a boiler , anyone gets
injured because of this action you would certainly be prosecuted

Post by Walt
I very strongly recommend that legal action is NOT taken. It would
appear that the neighbour will not be amenable to any form of dispute
resolution and the whole affair could end up very messy and VERY
expensive.
Walt (I am not a lawyer)

--

[Puggy]

Post by steve robinson

Post by Walt
I would strongly recommend that your friend simply saws off all the
protruding part of the pipe and then crimps the end. Your friend does
not need to inform the neighbour that this action has been taken.

Bad advice , it could be part of a pressure relief valve , by crimping the end
you are intefering with the saftey system possibly of a boiler , anyone gets
injured because of this action you would certainly be prosecuted

Not if you point out to whoever that you were simply ensuring that your
own family weren't sprayed with boiling water.

[The Real Doctor]

Post by steve robinson
Bad advice , it could be part of a pressure relief valve , by crimping the end
you are intefering with the saftey system possibly of a boiler , anyone gets
injured because of this action you would certainly be prosecuted

That, of course, would required knowledge of who did the dastardly
deed.

Ian

[steve robinson]

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by steve robinson
Bad advice , it could be part of a pressure relief valve , by crimping the
end you are intefering with the saftey system possibly of a boiler , anyone
gets injured because of this action you would certainly be prosecuted

That, of course, would required knowledge of who did the dastardly
deed.
Ian

Well its in the ops back yard , only the op and his family have access to this
area, narrows it down somewhat

--

[The Real Doctor]

Post by steve robinson
Well its in the ops back yard , only the op and his family have access to this
area, narrows it down somewhat

Even if that is the case, it narrows it down to "The OP and his
family".

Ian

[Roland Perry]

In message
<6889a8b4-d2d7-45f7-a711-***@r15g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, at
16:10:13 on Wed, 19 Nov 2008, The Real Doctor

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by steve robinson
Well its in the ops back yard , only the op and his family have access to this
area, narrows it down somewhat

Even if that is the case, it narrows it down to "The OP and his
family".

And everyone who attended that rather large party he threw on his
birthday.

Come on, folks, the police won't prosecute over a car that's been driven
onto the pavement, on the grounds that it might have arrived there by
helicopter. But we all know the only way it could possibly have got
there was by being driven.

[Anthony R. Gold]

Post by Roland Perry
Come on, folks, the police won't prosecute over a car that's been driven
onto the pavement, on the grounds that it might have arrived there by
helicopter. But we all know the only way it could possibly have got
there was by being driven.

Not "we all"; why could this hypothetical car not have been pushed there?

Tony

[Roland Perry]

Post by Anthony R. Gold

Post by Roland Perry
Come on, folks, the police won't prosecute over a car that's been driven
onto the pavement, on the grounds that it might have arrived there by
helicopter. But we all know the only way it could possibly have got
there was by being driven.

Not "we all"; why could this hypothetical car not have been pushed there?

Because I saw someone drive it there. Because the kerb is too high for
people to realistically push it there. Because it almost never happens.

[Anthony R. Gold]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anthony R. Gold

Post by Roland Perry
Come on, folks, the police won't prosecute over a car that's been driven
onto the pavement, on the grounds that it might have arrived there by
helicopter. But we all know the only way it could possibly have got
there was by being driven.

Not "we all"; why could this hypothetical car not have been pushed there?

Because I saw someone drive it there.

And the police will still refuse always to prosecute this offence even when
there is a witness?

Post by Roland Perry
Because the kerb is too high for
people to realistically push it there.

Enough people can move cars to places they can not reach under their own
power.

Post by Roland Perry
Because it almost never happens.

That does not make it beyond all reasonable doubt.

Tony

[Roland Perry]

Post by Anthony R. Gold

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anthony R. Gold
Not "we all"; why could this hypothetical car not have been pushed there?

Because I saw someone drive it there.

And the police will still refuse always to prosecute this offence even when
there is a witness?

Apparently they require it to be observed by a police officer. But I see
police officers observing it every day, and taking no action. Indeed the
police near me are some of the worst offenders :(

[Percy Picacity]

23:10:05 on Wed, 19 Nov 2008, Anthony R. Gold

Post by Anthony R. Gold

Post by Roland Perry
Come on, folks, the police won't prosecute over a car that's
been driven onto the pavement, on the grounds that it might have
arrived there by helicopter. But we all know the only way it
could possibly have got there was by being driven.

Not "we all"; why could this hypothetical car not have been pushed there?

Because I saw someone drive it there. Because the kerb is too high
for people to realistically push it there. Because it almost never
happens.

You seem all to be ignoring the necessity to prosecute a particular
person. Even if it is accepted that it was driven onto the curb beyond
reasonable doubt, that does not identify the driver with any degree of
certainty.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Percy Picacity

Post by Roland Perry
Because I saw someone drive it there. Because the kerb is too high
for people to realistically push it there. Because it almost never
happens.

You seem all to be ignoring the necessity to prosecute a particular
person. Even if it is accepted that it was driven onto the curb beyond
reasonable doubt, that does not identify the driver with any degree of
certainty.

That doesn't seem to matter for a range of other driving offences.
Prosecute the keeper, unless they nominate the person who was really
driving.

The other approach is to wait around (especially at 5pm when many of
these pavement-parked cars get reclaimed around here) and nab whoever
turns up to drive the car away. Even if they refuse to incriminate
themselves by actually driving away [an amusing stand-off] they could be
asked to explain how the car got there earlier in the day - which of
their mates pushed it, for example.

[Steve Walker]

Post by steve robinson

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by steve robinson
Bad advice , it could be part of a pressure relief valve , by
crimping the end you are intefering with the saftey system possibly
of a boiler , anyone gets injured because of this action you would
certainly be prosecuted

That, of course, would required knowledge of who did the dastardly
deed.
Ian

Well its in the ops back yard , only the op and his family have
access to this area, narrows it down somewhat

Not true - at least one unknown workman has entered the back yard recently,
who knows how many others have done so (or will soon)?

[steve robinson]

Post by Steve Walker

Post by steve robinson

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by steve robinson
Bad advice , it could be part of a pressure relief valve , by
crimping the end you are intefering with the saftey system possibly
of a boiler , anyone gets injured because of this action you would
certainly be prosecuted

That, of course, would required knowledge of who did the dastardly
deed.
Ian

Well its in the ops back yard , only the op and his family have
access to this area, narrows it down somewhat

Not true - at least one unknown workman has entered the back yard recently,
who knows how many others have done so (or will soon)?

The op said the hole had been drilled from inside the property , backed up by
the damage to the rendering

--

[Steve Walker]

Post by steve robinson

Post by Steve Walker

Post by steve robinson

On 18 Nov, 13:15, "steve robinson"

Post by steve robinson
Bad advice , it could be part of a pressure relief valve , by
crimping the end you are intefering with the saftey system
possibly of a boiler , anyone gets injured because of this action
you would certainly be prosecuted

That, of course, would required knowledge of who did the dastardly
deed.
Ian

Well its in the ops back yard , only the op and his family have
access to this area, narrows it down somewhat

Not true - at least one unknown workman has entered the back yard
recently, who knows how many others have done so (or will soon)?

The op said the hole had been drilled from inside the property ,
backed up by the damage to the rendering

Ah, missed that - good point

[Roland Perry]

Post by steve robinson

Post by Walt
I would strongly recommend that your friend simply saws off all the
protruding part of the pipe and then crimps the end. Your friend does
not need to inform the neighbour that this action has been taken.

Bad advice , it could be part of a pressure relief valve , by crimping the end
you are intefering with the saftey system possibly of a boiler , anyone gets
injured because of this action you would certainly be prosecuted

[I am not a plumber]

Every pressure relief system of this kind that I've seen involves a sort
of "open air funnel" (presumably this has a proper name) through which a
short exhaust from the valve feeds into the external drain pipe. If the
latter becomes obstructed, then the exhaust water will simply spray
round the vicinity of the funnel and tank that's being relieved.

[John Stumbles]

Post by Roland Perry
Every pressure relief system of this kind that I've seen involves a sort
of "open air funnel" (presumably this has a proper name) through which a
short exhaust from the valve feeds into the external drain pipe. If the
latter becomes obstructed, then the exhaust water will simply spray
round the vicinity of the funnel and tank that's being relieved.

I think you're thinking of a "tundish" which is typically installed on
"unvented" hot water systems, in which case the tundish is indoors.

Bog standard unvented CH systems just have discharge pipes straight to
outside (but should be taken close to, and pointing at, the ground).

[steve robinson]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by steve robinson

Post by Walt
I would strongly recommend that your friend simply saws off all the
protruding part of the pipe and then crimps the end. Your friend does
not need to inform the neighbour that this action has been taken.

Bad advice , it could be part of a pressure relief valve , by crimping the
end you are intefering with the saftey system possibly of a boiler , anyone
gets injured because of this action you would certainly be prosecuted

[I am not a plumber]
Every pressure relief system of this kind that I've seen involves a sort of
"open air funnel" (presumably this has a proper name) through which a short
exhaust from the valve feeds into the external drain pipe. If the latter
becomes obstructed, then the exhaust water will simply spray round the
vicinity of the funnel and tank that's being relieved.

Many but not all of the older boilers are like that , condensing boilers are
slightly different the pipe could be the relief of the condenser unit
--

[John Stumbles]

Post by steve robinson
Many but not all of the older boilers are like that , condensing boilers
are slightly different the pipe could be the relief of the condenser
unit

If you mean the condensate drain then it should have been plumbed in
plastic and taken to a drain or soakaway. (Not that a cowboy would
necessarily have done so.) One would see water being discharged from it
from time to time. In this case <ahem> accidentally blocking the drain by
leaning something up against it (it's the OP's yard and where he
puts stuff is his own business) might serve a salutary purpose by shutting
down the boiler.

[steve robinson]

Post by John Stumbles

Post by steve robinson
Many but not all of the older boilers are like that , condensing boilers
are slightly different the pipe could be the relief of the condenser
unit

If you mean the condensate drain then it should have been plumbed in
plastic and taken to a drain or soakaway. (Not that a cowboy would
necessarily have done so.) One would see water being discharged from it
from time to time. In this case <ahem> accidentally blocking the drain by
leaning something up against it (it's the OP's yard and where he
puts stuff is his own business) might serve a salutary purpose by shutting
down the boiler.

You can plumb a condensate drain off in eother plastic or copper , most go for
plastic because its cheaper , personally i prefer copper , looks neater , stays
straighter , takes external wall paint , goes green and blends in with the
surrounding area as apposed to standing out like a sore thumb and most of all
is a lot less likely to suffer damage --

[John Stumbles]

Post by steve robinson
You can plumb a condensate drain off in eother plastic or copper

Plastic is specified in the manufacturer's instructions for at least one
of Worcester-Bosch's boilers (the one I have the MIs for at hand) and I
suspect many more makes and models. It may be specified in the British
Standards, and/or Approved Documents (i.e. Building Regulations) but I CBA
to check. So your blanket statement that you can use copper isn't correct:
at best it may be permitted by some manufacturers, if it isn't prohibited
by regulations.

[steve robinson]

Post by John Stumbles

Post by steve robinson
You can plumb a condensate drain off in eother plastic or copper

Plastic is specified in the manufacturer's instructions for at least one
of Worcester-Bosch's boilers (the one I have the MIs for at hand) and I
suspect many more makes and models. It may be specified in the British
Standards, and/or Approved Documents (i.e. Building Regulations) but I CBA
at best it may be permitted by some manufacturers, if it isn't prohibited
by regulations.

My boiler had the same spec , when i contacted tech services they advised as
long as the connection into the condensate was plastic and i switched to copper
once the plastic had left the boiler then it meet thier requirements .

The thinking behind this was
1) stop any condensation within the copper
2 plastic stops heat transfer more efficently than copper
3) plastic being flexible stops the condensate unit bieng damaged by expansion
of pipework and the actions of clumsy plumbers

What they did say was if copper was used then it must not be 15 mm , in a heavy
frost or prolonged freeze its likely to get blocked by ice


--

[John Stumbles]

Post by steve robinson
My boiler had the same spec , when i contacted tech services they
advised as long as the connection into the condensate was plastic and i
switched to copper once the plastic had left the boiler then it meet
thier requirements .
The thinking behind this was
1) stop any condensation within the copper

How would condensation /occur/ within the condensate pipework, which is
only carrying liquid condensate anyway. And if in some paranormal way
condensation were to occur within this pipe, which is already carrying
condensate, why would it matter?

Post by steve robinson
2 plastic stops heat transfer more efficently than copper

So? The condensate is typically luke warm. What is to be gained by
reducing heat transfer?

Post by steve robinson
3) plastic being flexible stops the condensate unit bieng damaged by
expansion of pipework and the actions of clumsy plumbers

What is "the condensate unit" and how would it be damaged by expansion of
pipework if the pipework were not plastic? (Hint: all other pipework to
the boiler will be in copper.) The same applies to the clumsy plumber
argument, to which one could add that standards, regulations
and manufacturers' instructions are made to be followed by
careful installers, not clumsy ones.

Describing the above as "The thinking behind" anything is an insult to
thinking!

The reason for specifying non-metallic pipework is actually that
condensate is somewhat acidic and liable to damage metallic pipework over
long-term exposure.

[steve robinson]

Post by steve robinson
My boiler had the same spec , when i contacted tech services they
advised as long as the connection into the condensate was plastic and i
switched to copper once the plastic had left the boiler then it meet
thier requirements .
The thinking behind this was
1) stop any condensation within the copper

How would condensation occur within the condensate pipework, which is
only carrying liquid condensate anyway. And if in some paranormal way
condensation were to occur within this pipe, which is already carrying
condensate, why would it matter?

I would assume when the temperature falls below dew point and the boiler is not
in use (late evening early morning in the winter) ?

Post by steve robinson
2 plastic stops heat transfer more efficently than copper ?

So? The condensate is typically luke warm. What is to be gained by
reducing heat transfer?

Stopping the other pipework transfering heat into the condensate probably ?

Post by steve robinson
3) plastic being flexible stops the condensate unit bieng damaged by
expansion of pipework and the actions of clumsy plumbers

What is "the condensate unit" and how would it be damaged by expansion of
pipework if the pipework were not plastic? (Hint: all other pipework to
the boiler will be in copper.) The same applies to the clumsy plumber
argument, to which one could add that standards, regulations
and manufacturers' instructions are made to be followed by
careful installers, not clumsy ones.

In my boiler unit the condensate unit is a seperate plastic collection tank
other units differ .I would think most manufacturers would build in a certain
amount of idiot proofing , the few pennies it costs far outweighs the costs of
returns and ensuing arguments between customer , supplier and tradesmen when
components are broken ,



Possibly because the expansion rates are different ?

Describing the above as "The thinking behind" anything is an insult to
thinking!

I am sure they had well founded reasons for the info they supplied , as the
manufacturers , ultimatly they are the ones any expert would first refer to if
the installation required , needed to deviate from their prefered method of
installation after all they designed the unit and put it through type approval
not the installer

The reason for specifying non-metallic pipework is actually that
condensate is somewhat acidic and liable to damage metallic pipework over
long-term exposure.

Very long term exposure , usally far in exess of the boilers life expectancy ?


As i said this was advice supplied by the boiler manufactures tech department
for specfic issues



--

[John Stumbles]

Post by steve robinson

Post by steve robinson
The thinking behind this was

...

Post by steve robinson
As i said this was advice supplied by the boiler manufactures tech
department for specfic issues

OK, I know that heating engineers are like lawyers in that if you ask 2 of
them a question you'll get 3 different answers, but I think even other
heating engineers would agree with me that what the manufacturers told you
is what we refer to in the trade using typically obscure technical
language as "bullshit" ;-)

[steve robinson]

Post by John Stumbles

Post by steve robinson

Post by steve robinson
The thinking behind this was

...

Post by steve robinson
As i said this was advice supplied by the boiler manufactures tech
department for specfic issues

OK, I know that heating engineers are like lawyers in that if you ask 2 of
them a question you'll get 3 different answers, but I think even other
heating engineers would agree with me that what the manufacturers told you
is what we refer to in the trade using typically obscure technical
language as "bullshit" ;-)

Quite possibly however the installation was done to thier spec , confirmed by
fax and approved by the building control officer .

If it ever went to court (this is a legal group) the specification given for
installation by a manufacturer would have far greater weight in any
disagreement than that of an installer no matter how much he protested it was
bullshit .

It amazes me how often fitters and installers of varying pieces of equipment
witter on how the product needs this and doesnt need the other , the
manufacturers are clueless as you say supply bullshit , yet they still carry on
installing the kit

[John Stumbles]

Post by steve robinson

Post by John Stumbles

Post by steve robinson

Post by steve robinson
The thinking behind this was

...

Post by steve robinson
As i said this was advice supplied by the boiler manufactures tech
department for specfic issues

OK, I know that heating engineers are like lawyers in that if you ask 2 of
them a question you'll get 3 different answers, but I think even other
heating engineers would agree with me that what the manufacturers told you
is what we refer to in the trade using typically obscure technical
language as "bullshit" ;-)

Quite possibly however the installation was done to thier spec , confirmed by
fax and approved by the building control officer .
If it ever went to court (this is a legal group) the specification given for
installation by a manufacturer would have far greater weight in any
disagreement than that of an installer no matter how much he protested it was
bullshit .
It amazes me how often fitters and installers of varying pieces of equipment
witter on how the product needs this and doesnt need the other , the
manufacturers are clueless as you say supply bullshit , yet they still carry on
installing the kit

Legally the position is that British Standards and Approved Documents (aka
Building Regulations) set certain mandatory conditions (such as
positioning of boiler flues wrt openable windows, vents etc). Then the
Manufacturer's Instructions (MIs) take over and if they, for example,
mandate plastic pipework for a condensate waste then that is effectively
law (because to be legal a gas appliance has to be installed in accordance
with the MIs).

What we were talking about is a verbal discussion (on the subject of
condensation occurring inside condensate waste pipes etc) between you and
the manufacturer, which in legal terms is, I suggest, worth the paper it's
written on* :-)

However if they've written to say they're happy with your installation
then, provided it doesn't violate over-riding prescriptions or
proscriptions in the BSes or ADs then that should make it OK.


* with apologies to the Hollywood mogul Samuel Goldwyn to whom the original
"verbal contract ain't worth the paper it's written on" Bush-ism (or
Goldwynballs? :-)) is attributed :-)

[steve robinson]

Post by John Stumbles

Post by steve robinson

Post by John Stumbles

Post by steve robinson

Post by steve robinson
The thinking behind this was

...

Post by steve robinson
As i said this was advice supplied by the boiler manufactures tech
department for specfic issues

OK, I know that heating engineers are like lawyers in that if you ask 2 of
them a question you'll get 3 different answers, but I think even other
heating engineers would agree with me that what the manufacturers told you
is what we refer to in the trade using typically obscure technical
language as "bullshit" ;-)

Quite possibly however the installation was done to thier spec , confirmed
by fax and approved by the building control officer .
If it ever went to court (this is a legal group) the specification given
for installation by a manufacturer would have far greater weight in any
disagreement than that of an installer no matter how much he protested it
was bullshit .
It amazes me how often fitters and installers of varying pieces of equipment
witter on how the product needs this and doesnt need the other , the
manufacturers are clueless as you say supply bullshit , yet they still
carry on installing the kit

Legally the position is that British Standards and Approved Documents (aka
Building Regulations) set certain mandatory conditions (such as
positioning of boiler flues wrt openable windows, vents etc). Then the
Manufacturer's Instructions (MIs) take over and if they, for example,
mandate plastic pipework for a condensate waste then that is effectively
law (because to be legal a gas appliance has to be installed in accordance
with the MIs).
What we were talking about is a verbal discussion (on the subject of
condensation occurring inside condensate waste pipes etc) between you and
the manufacturer, which in legal terms is, I suggest, worth the paper it's
written on* :-)
However if they've written to say they're happy with your installation
then, provided it doesn't violate over-riding prescriptions or
proscriptions in the BSes or ADs then that should make it OK.

The wrote confirming the conversation and gave us a set of specifications

really helpful whch was unusual

Post by John Stumbles
* with apologies to the Hollywood mogul Samuel Goldwyn to whom the original
"verbal contract ain't worth the paper it's written on" Bush-ism (or
Goldwynballs? :-)) is attributed :-)

--

[The Real Doctor]

Post by John Stumbles
If you mean the condensate drain then it should have been plumbed in
plastic and taken to a drain or soakaway. (Not that a cowboy would
necessarily have done so.) One would see water being discharged from it
from time to time. In this case <ahem> accidentally blocking the drain by
leaning something up against it (it's the OP's yard and where he
puts stuff is his own business) might serve a salutary purpose by shutting
down the boiler.

It would be dreadful if a burglar, while attempting to scale or
descend the wall, bent the pipe over and sealed it with a kink.

Ian

[Big Les Wade]

Post by Adrian Dodd
Hi!
I am posting on behalf of an elderly friend who has a dispute with his
neighbour. I would be very grateful for any advice on the matter
since it has upset my friend considerably.
His neighbour has just had some plumbing work done. As part of that
work, a water pipe has been inserted through a boundary wall and into
my friend's tiny yard.
The neighbour never sought permission to insert this pipe, nor did he
even advise of the work. Furthermore, in the process of inserting the
pipe, a small area of cement render has been knocked off the boundary
wall.
I have examined the pipe and it is 15mm in diameter and made of
copper. It looks like an overflow pipe from a sink, a lavatory
cistern, or a heating boiler. The pipe protrudes about 8"-10" into my
friend's yard, directly above a fixed garden bench, at just over head
height.
The pipe is ugly, inconvenient and perhaps dangerous. The yard already
suffers from poor surface water drainage and my friend is worried that
water from the pipe could flood into his property. The pipe spoils my
friend's enjoyment of his yard, and he is annoyed about it, not least
because it was poked through without his permission. He does not wish
to have the pipe in his yard.
I just carried out a brief Google search, and I suspect that, legally,
this is a question of trespass and nuisance.

Yes, it is trespass. Also, it is very likely to be in breach of building
regulations (depending on what the pipe is for).

[steve robinson]

Post by Big Les Wade

Post by Adrian Dodd
Hi!
I am posting on behalf of an elderly friend who has a dispute with his
neighbour. I would be very grateful for any advice on the matter
since it has upset my friend considerably.
His neighbour has just had some plumbing work done. As part of that
work, a water pipe has been inserted through a boundary wall and into
my friend's tiny yard.
The neighbour never sought permission to insert this pipe, nor did he
even advise of the work. Furthermore, in the process of inserting the
pipe, a small area of cement render has been knocked off the boundary
wall.
I have examined the pipe and it is 15mm in diameter and made of
copper. It looks like an overflow pipe from a sink, a lavatory
cistern, or a heating boiler. The pipe protrudes about 8"-10" into my
friend's yard, directly above a fixed garden bench, at just over head
height.
The pipe is ugly, inconvenient and perhaps dangerous. The yard already
suffers from poor surface water drainage and my friend is worried that
water from the pipe could flood into his property. The pipe spoils my
friend's enjoyment of his yard, and he is annoyed about it, not least
because it was poked through without his permission. He does not wish
to have the pipe in his yard.
I just carried out a brief Google search, and I suspect that, legally,
this is a question of trespass and nuisance.

Yes, it is trespass. Also, it is very likely to be in breach of building
regulations (depending on what the pipe is for).

15 mm copper is usally a drain off pipe from a condensing boiler or pressure
relief valve from an unvented hot water system, it will emit scolding hot water
in some circumstances and it should run into a drain not be left overhead

--

[Anthony R. Gold]

On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 13:20:28 +0000, "steve robinson"

Post by steve robinson
15 mm copper is usally a drain off pipe from a condensing boiler or pressure
relief valve from an unvented hot water system, it will emit scolding hot water

If hot water did that it would be adding insult to injury :-)

Tony

[John Briggs]

Post by Anthony R. Gold
On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 13:20:28 +0000, "steve robinson"

Post by steve robinson
15 mm copper is usally a drain off pipe from a condensing boiler or
pressure relief valve from an unvented hot water system, it will
emit scolding hot water

If hot water did that it would be adding insult to injury :-)

I think you mean adding injury to insult...

[Anthony R. Gold]

On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 17:35:04 +0000, "John Briggs"

Post by John Briggs

Post by Anthony R. Gold
On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 13:20:28 +0000, "steve robinson"

Post by steve robinson
15 mm copper is usally a drain off pipe from a condensing boiler or
pressure relief valve from an unvented hot water system, it will
emit scolding hot water

If hot water did that it would be adding insult to injury :-)

I think you mean adding injury to insult...

Assuming the water was already hot and scalding, then I judged that any
scolding insults it chose to make would be the additional part, but YMMV.

Tony

[Zhang DaWei]

Post by Big Les Wade
Yes, it is trespass. Also, it is very likely to be in breach of building
regulations (depending on what the pipe is for).

Would a call to the most appropriate local council department
therefore be in order?

[steve robinson]

Post by Adrian Dodd
Hi!
I am posting on behalf of an elderly friend who has a dispute with his
neighbour. I would be very grateful for any advice on the matter
since it has upset my friend considerably.
His neighbour has just had some plumbing work done. As part of that
work, a water pipe has been inserted through a boundary wall and into
my friend's tiny yard.
The neighbour never sought permission to insert this pipe, nor did he
even advise of the work. Furthermore, in the process of inserting the
pipe, a small area of cement render has been knocked off the boundary
wall.
I have examined the pipe and it is 15mm in diameter and made of
copper. It looks like an overflow pipe from a sink, a lavatory
cistern, or a heating boiler. The pipe protrudes about 8"-10" into my
friend's yard, directly above a fixed garden bench, at just over head
height.
The pipe is ugly, inconvenient and perhaps dangerous. The yard already
suffers from poor surface water drainage and my friend is worried that
water from the pipe could flood into his property. The pipe spoils my
friend's enjoyment of his yard, and he is annoyed about it, not least
because it was poked through without his permission. He does not wish
to have the pipe in his yard.
I just carried out a brief Google search, and I suspect that, legally,
this is a question of trespass and nuisance.
I understand that the neighbour has been disagreeable in the past, so
a delicate approach is desirable!
Any opinions greatly received!
Cheers,
Adrian

It sounds like a drain off or pressure relief pipe from a boiler , it should be
discharged into a drain if it does vent water it can be scolding hot


--

[Alan]

Post by steve robinson
It sounds like a drain off or pressure relief pipe from a boiler , it should be
discharged into a drain if it does vent water it can be scolding hot

And if indeed it is for this function (pressure relief valve), as a
matter of safety, you dont want to restrict the end or "crimp" it as
has been suggested by earlier posters.

That said if its is discharging from a condensing boiler the scalding
water would more than justify action against your neigbhour.

A

[PCPaul]

Post by steve robinson
It sounds like a drain off or pressure relief pipe from a boiler , it
should be discharged into a drain if it does vent water it can be
scolding hot

Just on a point of principle, our condensing combi boiler has a pressure
relief pipe like this (15mm pipe through the wall). The installer did
exactly as the installation guide suggested and bent the pipe back on
itself with a gentle curve so if it ever does start spitting boiling
water it will fire it at the wall and get a lot more time to cool before
it lands on someones head..

It could be pretty much steam that comes out if there is a problem. It
needs to be resolved, whichever route is taken.

[Colin Jackson]

I had a problem neighbour when we moved into a townhouse.
Her overflow pipe was dribbling and soaking both our walls.
I approached her regarding this and she said 'speak to someone else!'

When she was not looking, I got a piece of bent hose pipe, up a ladder
and taped it into the overflow so that I poured down her window.

She never repaired it and it was there for several years till she moved.

Colin

Post by Adrian Dodd
Hi!
I am posting on behalf of an elderly friend who has a dispute with his
neighbour. I would be very grateful for any advice on the matter
since it has upset my friend considerably.
His neighbour has just had some plumbing work done. As part of that
work, a water pipe has been inserted through a boundary wall and into
my friend's tiny yard.
The neighbour never sought permission to insert this pipe, nor did he
even advise of the work. Furthermore, in the process of inserting the
pipe, a small area of cement render has been knocked off the boundary
wall.
I have examined the pipe and it is 15mm in diameter and made of
copper. It looks like an overflow pipe from a sink, a lavatory
cistern, or a heating boiler. The pipe protrudes about 8"-10" into my
friend's yard, directly above a fixed garden bench, at just over head
height.
The pipe is ugly, inconvenient and perhaps dangerous. The yard already
suffers from poor surface water drainage and my friend is worried that
water from the pipe could flood into his property. The pipe spoils my
friend's enjoyment of his yard, and he is annoyed about it, not least
because it was poked through without his permission. He does not wish
to have the pipe in his yard.
I just carried out a brief Google search, and I suspect that, legally,
this is a question of trespass and nuisance.
I understand that the neighbour has been disagreeable in the past, so
a delicate approach is desirable!
Any opinions greatly received!
Cheers,
Adrian

[The Todal]

Post by Adrian Dodd
Hi!
I am posting on behalf of an elderly friend who has a dispute with his
neighbour. I would be very grateful for any advice on the matter
since it has upset my friend considerably.
His neighbour has just had some plumbing work done. As part of that
work, a water pipe has been inserted through a boundary wall and into
my friend's tiny yard.
The neighbour never sought permission to insert this pipe, nor did he
even advise of the work. Furthermore, in the process of inserting the
pipe, a small area of cement render has been knocked off the boundary
wall.
I have examined the pipe and it is 15mm in diameter and made of
copper. It looks like an overflow pipe from a sink, a lavatory
cistern, or a heating boiler. The pipe protrudes about 8"-10" into my
friend's yard, directly above a fixed garden bench, at just over head
height.
The pipe is ugly, inconvenient and perhaps dangerous. The yard already
suffers from poor surface water drainage and my friend is worried that
water from the pipe could flood into his property. The pipe spoils my
friend's enjoyment of his yard, and he is annoyed about it, not least
because it was poked through without his permission. He does not wish
to have the pipe in his yard.
I just carried out a brief Google search, and I suspect that, legally,
this is a question of trespass and nuisance.
I understand that the neighbour has been disagreeable in the past, so
a delicate approach is desirable!
Any opinions greatly received!

The neighbour is seemingly guilty of trespass and possibly nuisance.

The best way to proceed would be to knock on his door (or if it is easier,
speak to him on the phone) and explain politely but firmly that you cannot
let the pipe remain there and it must be moved. There is no need to be
confrontational. Just say that his builder seems to have made a mistake and
quite possibly he wasn't aware of it.

If of course he refuses to discuss it, move to the next step. It would be
unwise to cut the pipe or block it without telling the neighbour you intend
to do so, otherwise there could be damage to the neighbour's property or
personal injury.

[John Stumbles]

Post by Adrian Dodd
I am posting on behalf of an elderly friend who has a dispute with his
neighbour. I would be very grateful for any advice on the matter
since it has upset my friend considerably.
His neighbour has just had some plumbing work done. As part of that
work, a water pipe has been inserted through a boundary wall and into
my friend's tiny yard.
The neighbour never sought permission to insert this pipe, nor did he
even advise of the work. Furthermore, in the process of inserting the
pipe, a small area of cement render has been knocked off the boundary
wall.
I have examined the pipe and it is 15mm in diameter and made of
copper. It looks like an overflow pipe from a sink, a lavatory
cistern, or a heating boiler. The pipe protrudes about 8"-10" into my
friend's yard, directly above a fixed garden bench, at just over head
height.
The pipe is ugly, inconvenient and perhaps dangerous. The yard already
suffers from poor surface water drainage and my friend is worried that
water from the pipe could flood into his property. The pipe spoils my
friend's enjoyment of his yard, and he is annoyed about it, not least
because it was poked through without his permission. He does not wish
to have the pipe in his yard.

If it really is 15mm copper it sounds like a pressure relief discharge
pipe from a sealed central heating system, most likely directly out of a
"combi" or perhaps a "system" boiler (see
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Boilers for what sort of boiler
is what).

If it is a PRD it should run down and discharge close to the ground or, if
it's a couple of storeys up, it's acceptable for it to be turned back on
itself to point back at the wall: pointing directly out from the wall
is not OK since when it operates (the PRD is a safety device) it'll
discharge a violent stream of scaling water and possibly steam.

If the pipe is from a boiler then there will probably be a new flue with
it, probably a couple of feet above the pipe. Is there? This would also be
an incorrect installation as not only will the flue cause a nuisance to
the neighbour (your friend) but is incorrect inasmuch as when planning a
flue location one must assume that neighbours may build up to the boundary
line, and the flue must still be OK if they do - which would obviously not
be the case here.

It sounds like a cowboy installation: no competent installer would do such
a thing. If the area is served by natural gas or the neighbour has LPG
(Calor) then the installation will be covered by the Gas Safety
(Installation and Use) Regulation 1998
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1998/19982451.htm and the installer must be
CORGI registered. CORGI would therefore be good people to contact
http://www.trustcorgi.com/complain/complaint.htmx although their track
record in actually doing anything is a bit variable, and given that
they've lost the franchise for registering gas installers to Crapita (who
take over from April 2009) they may be even less focussed on what they
might be doing to sort out problems with either their members' work or
that of unregistered installers.

If the installation is oil-fired then the appropriate body os OFTEC, but
they don't have the legal teeth CORGI (should) have.

The other outfit you could contact is your local authority building
control office. The installation of heat-producing appliances is
"notifiable" so your neighbour's new boiler (if that's what it is) should
have been/be notified to them (usually by the installer if they're signed
up to notify through CORGI). If there is an installation that hasn't been
notified then they (should) want to know about it and do something about
it. If it has been notified and is defective then they may be able to
contact the installer to query it. I don't really know what powers they
have.

If it's a PRD liable to cause danger to your friend it may also be
worth contacting the HSE - though they can be pretty toothless too.

[Big Les Wade]

Post by John Stumbles
If it really is 15mm copper it sounds like a pressure relief discharge
pipe from a sealed central heating system, most likely directly out of a
"combi" or perhaps a "system" boiler (see
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Boilers for what sort of boiler
is what).
If it is a PRD it should run down and discharge close to the ground or, if
it's a couple of storeys up, it's acceptable for it to be turned back on
itself to point back at the wall: pointing directly out from the wall
is not OK since when it operates (the PRD is a safety device) it'll
discharge a violent stream of scaling water and possibly steam.
If the pipe is from a boiler then there will probably be a new flue with
it, probably a couple of feet above the pipe. Is there? This would also be
an incorrect installation as not only will the flue cause a nuisance to
the neighbour (your friend) but is incorrect inasmuch as when planning a
flue location one must assume that neighbours may build up to the boundary
line, and the flue must still be OK if they do - which would obviously not
be the case here.

If it is a boiler PRD (which I doubt, since no flue has been mentioned)
the situation is even clearer than that. Building regulations forbid the
installation of a flue close to the property boundary.

Post by John Stumbles
It sounds like a cowboy installation: no competent installer would do such
a thing.

Actually, CORGI installers often do this sort of thing. Since they
self-certify their installations without needing BR inspection, they
know that they can usually get away with it unless the neighbour
objects.

Post by John Stumbles
If the area is served by natural gas or the neighbour has LPG
(Calor) then the installation will be covered by the Gas Safety
(Installation and Use) Regulation 1998
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1998/19982451.htm and the installer must be
CORGI registered. CORGI would therefore be good people to contact
http://www.trustcorgi.com/complain/complaint.htmx although their track
record in actually doing anything is a bit variable, and given that
they've lost the franchise for registering gas installers to Crapita (who
take over from April 2009) they may be even less focussed on what they
might be doing to sort out problems with either their members' work or
that of unregistered installers.
If the installation is oil-fired then the appropriate body os OFTEC, but
they don't have the legal teeth CORGI (should) have.

CORGI never do a thing. Why should they? They are there to defend their
members' interests, not customers'.

[steve robinson]

Post by John Stumbles
If it really is 15mm copper it sounds like a pressure relief discharge
pipe from a sealed central heating system, most likely directly out of a
"combi" or perhaps a "system" boiler (see
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Boilers for what sort of boiler
is what).
If it is a PRD it should run down and discharge close to the ground or, if
it's a couple of storeys up, it's acceptable for it to be turned back on
itself to point back at the wall: pointing directly out from the wall
is not OK since when it operates (the PRD is a safety device) it'll
discharge a violent stream of scaling water and possibly steam.
If the pipe is from a boiler then there will probably be a new flue with
it, probably a couple of feet above the pipe. Is there? This would also be
an incorrect installation as not only will the flue cause a nuisance to
the neighbour (your friend) but is incorrect inasmuch as when planning a
flue location one must assume that neighbours may build up to the boundary
line, and the flue must still be OK if they do - which would obviously not
be the case here.

If it is a boiler PRD (which I doubt, since no flue has been mentioned) the
situation is even clearer than that. Building regulations forbid the
installation of a flue close to the property boundary.

The building regulations are not that hard and fast when dealing with older
properties , if no alternative is possible then you can go through your wall
near a boundary



Its pointless quoteing building regs on old properties , 95% dont comply

When working on older properties , building control have to take into account
how the existing property is constructed , and often allow work to be
completed that wouldnt meet current regulations


Had an argument on a job in wales over timber section on a roof structure
he argued my sections were two small and likely to break , i argued
successfully that the sectioned matched the existing roof which we were
repairing both in section and quality and that roof had been thier for over 140
years , the only reason for the replacement was due to a woodworm infestation

Post by John Stumbles
It sounds like a cowboy installation: no competent installer would do such
a thing.

Actually, CORGI installers often do this sort of thing. Since they
self-certify their installations without needing BR inspection, they know
that they can usually get away with it unless the neighbour objects.

Post by John Stumbles
If the area is served by natural gas or the neighbour has LPG
(Calor) then the installation will be covered by the Gas Safety
(Installation and Use) Regulation 1998
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1998/19982451.htm and the installer must be
CORGI registered. CORGI would therefore be good people to contact
http://www.trustcorgi.com/complain/complaint.htmx although their track
record in actually doing anything is a bit variable, and given that
they've lost the franchise for registering gas installers to Crapita (who
take over from April 2009) they may be even less focussed on what they
might be doing to sort out problems with either their members' work or
that of unregistered installers.
If the installation is oil-fired then the appropriate body os OFTEC, but
they don't have the legal teeth CORGI (should) have.

CORGI never do a thing. Why should they? They are there to defend their
members' interests, not customers'.

--

[John Stumbles]

Post by Big Les Wade
If it is a boiler PRD (which I doubt, since no flue has been mentioned)
the situation is even clearer than that. Building regulations forbid the
installation of a flue close to the property boundary.

I did question whether there was an associated flue.

Post by Big Les Wade

Post by John Stumbles
It sounds like a cowboy installation: no competent installer would do
such a thing.

Actually, CORGI installers often do this sort of thing. Since they
self-certify their installations without needing BR inspection, they
know that they can usually get away with it unless the neighbour
objects.

We could have an argument here about our respective definitions of
"competent" :-)

Post by Big Les Wade
CORGI never do a thing. Why should they? They are there to defend their
members' interests, not customers'.

They've been trying to show that they're dealing effectively with
unregistered installers, and they do (sometimes) act on complaints from
customers (I know, I've been on the receiving end of one once).

[The Wanderer]

Post by Adrian Dodd
Hi!
I am posting on behalf of an elderly friend who has a dispute with his
neighbour. I would be very grateful for any advice on the matter
since it has upset my friend considerably.
His neighbour has just had some plumbing work done. As part of that
work, a water pipe has been inserted through a boundary wall and into
my friend's tiny yard.

<snip>

Post by Adrian Dodd
Any opinions greatly received!

I would echo what John Stumnbels has said in this thread. He's a respected
poster in another forum.

As an aside, I am amused at the number of posts that are suggesting a
course of action that is highly dangerous and may well be unlawful. It's
good to see that the charter of this NG is being upheld! :-)

[The Real Doctor]

Post by The Wanderer
As an aside, I am amused at the number of posts that are suggesting a
course of action that is highly dangerous and may well be unlawful. It's
good to see that the charter of this NG is being upheld! :-)

What charter? That aside, at least we're not suggesting paying anyone
to do it!

Ian

[Martin Bonner]

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by The Wanderer
As an aside, I am amused at the number of posts that are suggesting a
course of action that is highly dangerous and may well be unlawful. It's
good to see that the charter of this NG is being upheld! :-)

What charter? That aside, at least we're not suggesting paying anyone
to do it!
Ian

Wrong group. This is uk.legal.moderated (which has a charter and
often contains suggestions from respected posters that people should
obtain paid-for advice). Despite the fact that John Stumbles is
posting here, this is not uk.d-i-y (which also has a charter, but
usually avoids suggesting paying someone to do it).

[Rod]

Post by Martin Bonner

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by The Wanderer
As an aside, I am amused at the number of posts that are suggesting a
course of action that is highly dangerous and may well be unlawful. It's
good to see that the charter of this NG is being upheld! :-)

What charter? That aside, at least we're not suggesting paying anyone
to do it!
Ian

Wrong group. This is uk.legal.moderated (which has a charter and
often contains suggestions from respected posters that people should
obtain paid-for advice). Despite the fact that John Stumbles is
posting here, this is not uk.d-i-y (which also has a charter, but
usually avoids suggesting paying someone to do it).

I thought the payment issue was related to gas installer registration -
work done without payment possibly does not require such registration,
merely competence. If this pipe is gas-related, it is arguable that the
person doing anything to it should be so registered if they are being
rewarded.

However, as implicit in an earlier post of mine and explicit in John
Stumbles' post, get in touch with your local Building Control Officer.
As a first step, that is surely the best option?

[The Real Doctor]

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by The Wanderer
As an aside, I am amused at the number of posts that are suggesting a
course of action that is highly dangerous and may well be unlawful. It's
good to see that the charter of this NG is being upheld! :-)

What charter? That aside, at least we're not suggesting paying anyone
to do it!
Ian

Wrong group.  This is uk.legal.moderated (which has a charter and
often contains suggestions from respected posters that people should
obtain paid-for advice).  Despite the fact that John Stumbles is
posting here, this is not uk.d-i-y (which also has a charter, but
usually avoids suggesting paying someone to do it).

<Buries head in hands>

Whoops.

Ian

[The Wanderer]

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by The Wanderer
As an aside, I am amused at the number of posts that are suggesting a
course of action that is highly dangerous and may well be unlawful. It's
good to see that the charter of this NG is being upheld! :-)

What charter? That aside, at least we're not suggesting paying anyone
to do it!

Others have pointed out that this NG has a charter. My (tongue-in-cheek)
point had been that whilst this NG may be a moderated group, that is no bar
to what may be posted here, which may - or may not - be a lawful course of
action.

[Steve Walker]

Post by The Wanderer

Post by Adrian Dodd
Hi!
I am posting on behalf of an elderly friend who has a dispute with
his neighbour. I would be very grateful for any advice on the matter
since it has upset my friend considerably.
His neighbour has just had some plumbing work done. As part of that
work, a water pipe has been inserted through a boundary wall and into
my friend's tiny yard.

<snip>

Post by Adrian Dodd
Any opinions greatly received!

I would echo what John Stumnbels has said in this thread. He's a
respected poster in another forum.
As an aside, I am amused at the number of posts that are suggesting a
course of action that is highly dangerous and may well be unlawful.
It's good to see that the charter of this NG is being upheld! :-)

Yep - the charter (http://www.usenet.org.uk/uk.legal.moderated.html) doesn't
prohibit advocacy of criminal offences, whether morally justified or not.
Posting binaries OTOH, would be completely unacceptable.... :o)

[The Todal]

Post by Steve Walker

Post by The Wanderer

Post by Adrian Dodd
Hi!
I am posting on behalf of an elderly friend who has a dispute with
his neighbour. I would be very grateful for any advice on the matter
since it has upset my friend considerably.
His neighbour has just had some plumbing work done. As part of that
work, a water pipe has been inserted through a boundary wall and into
my friend's tiny yard.

<snip>

Post by Adrian Dodd
Any opinions greatly received!

I would echo what John Stumnbels has said in this thread. He's a
respected poster in another forum.
As an aside, I am amused at the number of posts that are suggesting a
course of action that is highly dangerous and may well be unlawful.
It's good to see that the charter of this NG is being upheld! :-)

Yep - the charter (http://www.usenet.org.uk/uk.legal.moderated.html) doesn't
prohibit advocacy of criminal offences, whether morally justified or not.
Posting binaries OTOH, would be completely unacceptable.... :o)

On the other hand, the moderation policy posted at
http://www.uklegal.fsnet.co.uk/ulm.htm
does include:

"i) The moderators may reject posts which appear to encourage criminal
activity (example: using violence as a way of solving a dispute)".

But that's discretionary. And we aren't necessarily talking about criminal
activity here, though conceivably if you block a pipe that is trespassing
onto your land, you could face investigation for a possible offence of
criminal damage.

[The Real Doctor]

Post by Steve Walker
Yep - the charter (http://www.usenet.org.uk/uk.legal.moderated.html) doesn't
prohibit advocacy of criminal offences, whether morally justified or not.
Posting binaries OTOH, would be completely unacceptable....   :o)

01101111011010000010000001110011011010000110100101110100

Ian

[Steve Walker]

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by Steve Walker
Yep - the charter (http://www.usenet.org.uk/uk.legal.moderated.html)
doesn't prohibit advocacy of criminal offences, whether morally
justified or not. Posting binaries OTOH, would be completely
unacceptable.... :o)

01101111011010000010000001110011011010000110100101110100

01010010010011110100011001001100010011010100000101001111

[unknown]

Post by Steve Walker

Post by The Real Doctor

Post by Steve Walker
Yep - the charter (http://www.usenet.org.uk/uk.legal.moderated.html)
doesn't prohibit advocacy of criminal offences, whether morally
justified or not. Posting binaries OTOH, would be completely
unacceptable.... :o)

01101111011010000010000001110011011010000110100101110100

01010010010011110100011001001100010011010100000101001111

We'll not have that sort of language here!

[Owain]

Post by unknown

Post by Steve Walker

Post by The Real Doctor

... Posting binaries OTOH, would be completely
unacceptable.... :o)

01101111011010000010000001110011011010000110100101110100

01010010010011110100011001001100010011010100000101001111

We'll not have that sort of language here!

%57%68%79%20%61%72%65%20%6f%6e%6c%79%20%62%69%6e%61%72%69%65%73%20%70%72%6f%68%69%62%69%74%65%64%3f%20%53%68%6f%75%6c%64%6e%27%74%20%68%65%78%61%64%65%63%69%6d%61%6c%73%20%62%65%20%70%72%6f%68%69%62%69%74%65%64%20%74%6f%6f%3f

Owain

(convert it back here:
http://centricle.com/tools/ascii-hex/

[Adrian Dodd]

Post by Adrian Dodd
Hi!
I am posting on behalf of an elderly friend who has a dispute with his
neighbour. I would be very grateful for any advice on the matter
since it has upset my friend considerably.
His neighbour has just had some plumbing work done. As part of that
work, a water pipe has been inserted through a boundary wall and into
my friend's tiny yard.
The neighbour never sought permission to insert this pipe, nor did he
even advise of the work. Furthermore, in the process of inserting the
pipe, a small area of cement render has been knocked off the boundary
wall.
I have examined the pipe and it is 15mm in diameter and made of
copper. It looks like an overflow pipe from a sink, a lavatory
cistern, or a heating boiler. The pipe protrudes about 8"-10" into my
friend's yard, directly above a fixed garden bench, at just over head
height.
The pipe is ugly, inconvenient and perhaps dangerous. The yard already
suffers from poor surface water drainage and my friend is worried that
water from the pipe could flood into his property. The pipe spoils my
friend's enjoyment of his yard, and he is annoyed about it, not least
because it was poked through without his permission. He does not wish
to have the pipe in his yard.
I just carried out a brief Google search, and I suspect that, legally,
this is a question of trespass and nuisance.
I understand that the neighbour has been disagreeable in the past, so
a delicate approach is desirable!
Any opinions greatly received!
Cheers,
Adrian

Thank you everyone for all your comments. They have been very helpful.
You've reassured us that
we weren't over-reacting.

I guess the pipe isn't connected to a boiler since there is no
evidence of a flue on that wall.

My friend has written a polite but firm letter insisting that the pipe
be removed. But is still awaiting a reply. A reminder letter in a
short while is perhaps in order next.

Some of the suggestions were very amusing!

I shall keep you all informed.

Kind Regards,
Adrian

[Colin Wilson]

Post by Adrian Dodd
I guess the pipe isn't connected to a boiler since there is no
evidence of a flue on that wall.
My friend has written a polite but firm letter insisting that the pipe
be removed.

IANAL

I'd be tempted to remove it for them - using a hammer to knock it back
through the boundary wall :-}