personal lockers in the workplace

[chris]

Hello Group,
Can anyone furnish me with any legal ammo against over
zelous managers in my place of work who constantly try and bully staff into
opening their personal lockers to see if there is anything inapropriate
inside. These lockers do not contain anything inapropriate ever, they do
contain family photosand personal possessions etc. These searches are
completly random and it seems to me that it is an infringment of our right
to privacy however I need something to come back at them with.

Cheers
Chris

[John]

Post by chris
Hello Group,
Can anyone furnish me with any legal ammo against over
zelous managers in my place of work who constantly try and bully staff into
opening their personal lockers to see if there is anything inapropriate
inside. These lockers do not contain anything inapropriate ever, they do
contain family photosand personal possessions etc. These searches are
completly random and it seems to me that it is an infringment of our
right
to privacy however I need something to come back at them with.
Cheers
Chris

Just a thought - who provided the locker?

["\"nightjar\" <cpb@".me.uk]

Post by chris
Hello Group,
Can anyone furnish me with any legal ammo against over
zelous managers in my place of work who constantly try and bully staff into
opening their personal lockers to see if there is anything inapropriate
inside. These lockers do not contain anything inapropriate ever, they do
contain family photosand personal possessions etc. These searches are
completly random and it seems to me that it is an infringment of our
right
to privacy however I need something to come back at them with.

Lockers are normally provided in the workplace to give employees somewhere
safe to store their valuables during working hours. They are no more
personal property than a desk drawer, although many people treat both as
such. It is also unlikely that anyone is going to expend the time, expense
and effort of carrying out random searches without some good reason, such as
pilfering, either from the company or from individuals, or a problem with
drink or drugs in the workplace.

Colin Bignell

[Fergus O'Rourke]

Post by chris
Hello Group,
Can anyone furnish me with any legal ammo against
over zelous managers in my place of work who constantly try and bully
staff into opening their personal lockers to see if there is anything
inapropriate inside. These lockers do not contain anything
inapropriate ever, they do contain family photosand personal
possessions etc. These searches are completly random and it seems to
me that it is an infringment of our right to privacy however I need
something to come back at them with.
Cheers
Chris

This is what a trade union is for.

If no union, is there a term in your employment contract covering this ?

If not, ask for a change in the contract.

Just because the employer owns the lockers does not entitle management to
routinely infringe reasonable privacy, whether the employment contract says
so or not.

I am presuming that there is no pretext whatsoever for these searches, but
if, for example, stuff is disappearing, it might be a different kettle of
fish.

[Dave]

Post by Fergus O'Rourke

Post by chris
Hello Group,
Can anyone furnish me with any legal ammo against
over zelous managers in my place of work who constantly try and bully
staff into opening their personal lockers to see if there is anything
inapropriate inside. These lockers do not contain anything
inapropriate ever, they do contain family photosand personal
possessions etc. These searches are completly random and it seems to
me that it is an infringment of our right to privacy however I need
something to come back at them with.
Cheers
Chris

This is what a trade union is for.
If no union, is there a term in your employment contract covering this ?
If not, ask for a change in the contract.
Just because the employer owns the lockers does not entitle management to
routinely infringe reasonable privacy, whether the employment contract says
so or not.
I am presuming that there is no pretext whatsoever for these searches, but
if, for example, stuff is disappearing, it might be a different kettle of
fish.

What prevents management checking the contents of their own storage
property? It is entirely reasonable.

The employees may well find that the locker privilege is withdrawn.

Many companies have policies of checking the contents of employees'
equipment (such as cars for example).

[chris]

Thanks for the replys,
First of all we have a good union and they say
that management absolutley cannot open up our lockers on a whim without
perfectly good reason. I agree if something had gone missing then if you had
nothing to hide then there shouldnt be any problem but some of these newly
appointed managers have introduced a whole new climate of awkwardness in
the workplace , the reasons ? well only they can tell. These beat up old
lockers are not a privelige believe me. we are not contractually obliged to
have our lockers inspected when these managers feel like it neither. I
suppose if they feel that its their storage facility and they have every
right i think I will leave every bit of stuff in a large suitcase by my
locker and they can go and get stuffed I suppose

Chris

Post by Dave

Post by Fergus O'Rourke

Post by chris
Hello Group,
Can anyone furnish me with any legal ammo against
over zelous managers in my place of work who constantly try and bully
staff into opening their personal lockers to see if there is anything
inapropriate inside. These lockers do not contain anything
inapropriate ever, they do contain family photosand personal
possessions etc. These searches are completly random and it seems to
me that it is an infringment of our right to privacy however I need
something to come back at them with.
Cheers
Chris

This is what a trade union is for.
If no union, is there a term in your employment contract covering this ?
If not, ask for a change in the contract.
Just because the employer owns the lockers does not entitle management to
routinely infringe reasonable privacy, whether the employment contract
says so or not.
I am presuming that there is no pretext whatsoever for these searches,
but if, for example, stuff is disappearing, it might be a different
kettle of fish.

What prevents management checking the contents of their own storage
property? It is entirely reasonable.
The employees may well find that the locker privilege is withdrawn.
Many companies have policies of checking the contents of employees'
equipment (such as cars for example).

[Dave]

Post by chris
Thanks for the replys,
First of all we have a good union and they say
that management absolutley cannot open up our lockers on a whim without
perfectly good reason. I agree if something had gone missing then if you had
nothing to hide then there shouldnt be any problem but some of these newly
appointed managers have introduced a whole new climate of awkwardness in
the workplace , the reasons ? well only they can tell. These beat up old
lockers are not a privelige believe me. we are not contractually obliged to
have our lockers inspected when these managers feel like it neither. I
suppose if they feel that its their storage facility and they have every
right i think I will leave every bit of stuff in a large suitcase by my
locker and they can go and get stuffed I suppose
Chris

Good luck, however it is their storage space and even if it isn't
explicitly in the contract they can inspect them or withdraw the
facility (unless the contract actually makes it private).

They may feel it is their facility and they are right in that. Just as
they can stipulate how they use that storage they can also dictate what
or where you store in their building and if they have any sense they
will invoke their right to remove suitcases they don't want.

That said, there is no reason why this can't be done with a bit of
sensitivity.

[Toom Tabard]

Post by Dave

Post by chris
Thanks for the replys,
                          First of all we have a good union  and they say
that management absolutley cannot open up our lockers on a whim without
perfectly good reason. I agree if something had gone missing then if you had
nothing to hide then there shouldnt be any problem but some of these newly
appointed managers have introduced a whole new climate of awkwardness  in
the workplace , the reasons ? well only they can tell. These beat up old
lockers are not a privelige believe me. we are not contractually obliged to
have our lockers inspected when these managers feel like it neither. I
suppose if they feel that its their storage facility and they have every
right i think I will leave every bit of stuff in a large suitcase by my
locker and they can go and get stuffed I suppose
                                            Chris

Good luck, however it is their storage space and even if it isn't
explicitly in the contract they can inspect them or withdraw the
facility (unless the contract actually makes it private).

Not if it is a locker for the personal secure use of the employee. The
consensus view and practice of employers associations, security firms
and employment lawyers is that a personal locker cannot be subject to
routine or random search unless the right to do so is in the contract
or employment handbook. If it isn't in the contract then the employee
can refuse, and any disciplinary action against the employee would
probably be deemed unfair. It would breach the general principles
governing surveillance in the workplace, and may be a breach of right
to privacy under the Human Rights Act. Only if the right to search is
in the contract can any refusal to allow such searches be reliably
deemed a breach of contract.

Toom

[Dave]

Post by Toom Tabard

Post by Dave

Post by chris
Thanks for the replys,
First of all we have a good union and they say
that management absolutley cannot open up our lockers on a whim without
perfectly good reason. I agree if something had gone missing then if you had
nothing to hide then there shouldnt be any problem but some of these newly
appointed managers have introduced a whole new climate of awkwardness in
the workplace , the reasons ? well only they can tell. These beat up old
lockers are not a privelige believe me. we are not contractually obliged to
have our lockers inspected when these managers feel like it neither. I
suppose if they feel that its their storage facility and they have every
right i think I will leave every bit of stuff in a large suitcase by my
locker and they can go and get stuffed I suppose
Chris

Good luck, however it is their storage space and even if it isn't
explicitly in the contract they can inspect them or withdraw the
facility (unless the contract actually makes it private).

Not if it is a locker for the personal secure use of the employee. The
consensus view and practice of employers associations, security firms
and employment lawyers is that a personal locker cannot be subject to
routine or random search unless the right to do so is in the contract
or employment handbook. If it isn't in the contract then the employee
can refuse, and any disciplinary action against the employee would
probably be deemed unfair. It would breach the general principles
governing surveillance in the workplace, and may be a breach of right
to privacy under the Human Rights Act. Only if the right to search is
in the contract can any refusal to allow such searches be reliably
deemed a breach of contract.
Toom

Or on the other hand may not be ...

Similarly there are other arguments which could be put forward
concluding that the employer would be in breach of statutory obligations
by not checking and being aware of the contents of the lockers.

Principles and practices are fine but there isn't a concrete legal
reason why the employer can't do this. As always, there is a risk that
somebody may come up with an indirect argument which will be successful.

[Toom Tabard]

Post by Dave

Post by Toom Tabard

Post by Dave

Post by chris
Thanks for the replys,
                          First of all we have a good union  and they say
that management absolutley cannot open up our lockers on a whim without
perfectly good reason. I agree if something had gone missing then if you had
nothing to hide then there shouldnt be any problem but some of these newly
appointed managers have introduced a whole new climate of awkwardness  in
the workplace , the reasons ? well only they can tell. These beat up old
lockers are not a privelige believe me. we are not contractually obliged to
have our lockers inspected when these managers feel like it neither. I
suppose if they feel that its their storage facility and they have every
right i think I will leave every bit of stuff in a large suitcase by my
locker and they can go and get stuffed I suppose
                                            Chris

Good luck, however it is their storage space and even if it isn't
explicitly in the contract they can inspect them or withdraw the
facility (unless the contract actually makes it private).

Not if it is a locker for the personal secure use of the employee. The
consensus view and practice of employers associations, security firms
and employment lawyers is that a personal locker cannot be subject to
routine or random search unless the right to do so is in the contract
or employment handbook. If it isn't in the contract then the employee
can refuse, and any disciplinary action against the employee would
probably be deemed unfair. It would breach the general principles
governing surveillance in the workplace, and may be a breach of right
to  privacy under the Human Rights Act. Only if the right to search is
in the contract can any refusal to allow such searches be reliably
deemed a breach of contract.
Toom

Or on the other hand may not be ...
Similarly there are other arguments which could be put forward
concluding that the employer would be in breach of statutory obligations
by not checking and being aware of the contents of the lockers.
Principles and practices are fine but there isn't a concrete legal
reason why the employer can't do this.  As always, there is a risk that
somebody may come up with an indirect argument which will be successful.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

True, but what I've stated is the current accepted legal view and
practice. I'm not aware of any case or principle which would support
your very definite statement "it is their storage space and even if it
isn't explicitly in the contract they can inspect them or withdraw the
facility (unless the contract actually makes it private)", though I
would be interested if you could point me to any sources of
information which support this.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Dave
Many companies have policies of checking the contents of employees'
equipment (such as cars for example).

I briefly worked at a factory where employee's cars were routinely
searched as they left the premises.

[Fergus O'Rourke]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Dave
Many companies have policies of checking the contents of employees'
equipment (such as cars for example).

I briefly worked at a factory where employee's cars were routinely
searched as they left the premises.

Were there circumstances making this a reasonable routine ?

[Roland Perry]

Post by Fergus O'Rourke

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Dave
Many companies have policies of checking the contents of employees'
equipment (such as cars for example).

I briefly worked at a factory where employee's cars were routinely
searched as they left the premises.

Were there circumstances making this a reasonable routine ?

The factory made video recorders, and there was a possibility that some
might have otherwise left in dubious circumstances. It's a bit like some
cash-handling jobs where they don't let you take your own cash onto the
premises (and I presume they search people going out).

[Mark Goodge]

On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 15:15:19 +0100, Roland Perry put finger to

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Dave
Many companies have policies of checking the contents of employees'
equipment (such as cars for example).

I briefly worked at a factory where employee's cars were routinely
searched as they left the premises.

Where I work, we are subject to random car and/or bag checks on
leaving the premises. This is a requirement imposed by the company's
insurers, as there is a large quantity of expensive items of hardware
on the premises which could easily be removed by dishonest staff (or,
for that matter, visitors) in the absence of any such safegards. I
don't know if staff lockers are subject to the same process of random
checks, as I didn't take up the offer of being allocated one (I'm
sufficiently far up the corporate ladder that my desk is big enough
for anything I need to keep at work), but it wouldn't surprise me if
that was the case.

Mark

[Fergus O'Rourke]

[snip]

Post by Dave

Post by Fergus O'Rourke
Just because the employer owns the lockers does not entitle
management to routinely infringe reasonable privacy, whether the
employment contract says so or not.
I am presuming that there is no pretext whatsoever for these
searches, but if, for example, stuff is disappearing, it might be a
different kettle of fish.

What prevents management checking the contents of their own storage
property ?

The laws of contract and tort.

Post by Dave
It is entirely reasonable.

Why ?

Post by Dave
The employees may well find that the locker privilege is withdrawn.

Who said that it was a privilege ?

Post by Dave
Many companies have policies of checking the contents of employees'
equipment (such as cars for example).

Policies do not necessarily have legal status.

More generally, employers lose their entitlement to capricious behaviour in
relation to their property when they require others to access and use said
property.

[Dave]

Post by Fergus O'Rourke
[snip]

Post by Dave

Post by Fergus O'Rourke
Just because the employer owns the lockers does not entitle
management to routinely infringe reasonable privacy, whether the
employment contract says so or not.
I am presuming that there is no pretext whatsoever for these
searches, but if, for example, stuff is disappearing, it might be a
different kettle of fish.

What prevents management checking the contents of their own storage
property ?

The laws of contract and tort.

Actually those laws don't necessarily prevent it. They may prevent it.

Post by Fergus O'Rourke

Post by Dave
It is entirely reasonable.

Why ?

In order to check how their property is being used, how it is being
treated and what it is used for.

Post by Fergus O'Rourke

Post by Dave
The employees may well find that the locker privilege is withdrawn.

Who said that it was a privilege ?

The recognition that employees are perfectly at liberty to make their
own alternative arrangements for the storage of their personal property
along with the fact that provision of the facility is voluntary makes it
a privilege.

Post by Fergus O'Rourke

Post by Dave
Many companies have policies of checking the contents of employees'
equipment (such as cars for example).

Policies do not necessarily have legal status.
More generally, employers lose their entitlement to capricious behaviour in
relation to their property when they require others to access and use said
property.

But they don't require it. They allow it in order to help their
employees. It is not part of the job and it doesn't become part of the
job just because the employees are not permitted to take their
possessions into other parts of the premises.

They haven't behaved capriciously. Insensitively maybe.

[Fergus O'Rourke]

Post by Dave

Post by Fergus O'Rourke
[snip]

Post by Dave

Post by Fergus O'Rourke
Just because the employer owns the lockers does not entitle
management to routinely infringe reasonable privacy, whether the
employment contract says so or not.
I am presuming that there is no pretext whatsoever for these
searches, but if, for example, stuff is disappearing, it might be a
different kettle of fish.

What prevents management checking the contents of their own storage
property ?

The laws of contract and tort.

Actually those laws don't necessarily prevent it. They may prevent it.

Fair enough, I agree

Post by Dave

Post by Fergus O'Rourke

Post by Dave
It is entirely reasonable.

Why ?

In order to check how their property is being used, how it is being
treated and what it is used for.

That is unlikely to be reasonable absent any evidence of abuse, but it
depends very much on the surrounding circumstances.

Post by Dave

Post by Fergus O'Rourke

Post by Dave
The employees may well find that the locker privilege is withdrawn.

Who said that it was a privilege ?

The recognition that employees are perfectly at liberty to make their own
alternative arrangements for the storage of their personal property along
with the fact that provision of the facility is voluntary makes it a
privilege.

Victorian attitude IMHO.

Post by Dave

Post by Fergus O'Rourke

Post by Dave
Many companies have policies of checking the contents of employees'
equipment (such as cars for example).

Policies do not necessarily have legal status.
More generally, employers lose their entitlement to capricious behaviour
in relation to their property when they require others to access and use
said property.

But they don't require it. They allow it in order to help their
employees. It is not part of the job and it doesn't become part of the
job just because the employees are not permitted to take their possessions
into other parts of the premises.

We are not on same wavelength.

Post by Dave
They haven't behaved capriciously.

[snip]

How can you say that ? Do you know that it was more than caprice ?

I am not asserting that the behaviour was capricious, but that your position
(AIUI) that the employer can behave as capriciously as he likes because he
owns the property is unsustainable.

[Dave]

Post by Fergus O'Rourke

Post by Dave

Post by Fergus O'Rourke
[snip]

Post by Dave

Post by Fergus O'Rourke
Just because the employer owns the lockers does not entitle
management to routinely infringe reasonable privacy, whether the
employment contract says so or not.
I am presuming that there is no pretext whatsoever for these
searches, but if, for example, stuff is disappearing, it might be a
different kettle of fish.

What prevents management checking the contents of their own storage
property ?

The laws of contract and tort.

Actually those laws don't necessarily prevent it. They may prevent it.

Fair enough, I agree

Post by Dave

Post by Fergus O'Rourke

Post by Dave
It is entirely reasonable.

Why ?

In order to check how their property is being used, how it is being
treated and what it is used for.

That is unlikely to be reasonable absent any evidence of abuse, but it
depends very much on the surrounding circumstances.

Post by Dave

Post by Fergus O'Rourke

Post by Dave
The employees may well find that the locker privilege is withdrawn.

Who said that it was a privilege ?

The recognition that employees are perfectly at liberty to make their own
alternative arrangements for the storage of their personal property along
with the fact that provision of the facility is voluntary makes it a
privilege.

Victorian attitude IMHO.

Post by Dave

Post by Fergus O'Rourke

Post by Dave
Many companies have policies of checking the contents of employees'
equipment (such as cars for example).

Policies do not necessarily have legal status.
More generally, employers lose their entitlement to capricious behaviour
in relation to their property when they require others to access and use
said property.

But they don't require it. They allow it in order to help their
employees. It is not part of the job and it doesn't become part of the
job just because the employees are not permitted to take their possessions
into other parts of the premises.

We are not on same wavelength.

Post by Dave
They haven't behaved capriciously.

[snip]
How can you say that ? Do you know that it was more than caprice ?
I am not asserting that the behaviour was capricious, but that your position
(AIUI) that the employer can behave as capriciously as he likes because he
owns the property is unsustainable.

The point that an employer can impose wide ranging conditions on the use
of equipment which does not form part of the job or equipment necessary
to facilitate or do the job and which they are under no obligation in
any context to provide is entirely sustainable.

Whether it is good management is an entirely different question.

[Toom Tabard]

Post by chris
Hello Group,
                  Can anyone furnish me with any legal ammo against over
zelous managers in my place of work who constantly try and bully staff into
opening their personal lockers to see if there is anything inapropriate
inside. These lockers do not contain anything inapropriate ever, they do
contain family photosand personal possessions  etc. These searches are
completly random and it seems to me that it is an infringment of our  right
to privacy however I need something to come back at them with.
                                               Cheers
                                                  Chris

Normally, an employer has a right to stop and search, or to search
desks, offices, lockers etc, only if it is
specifically in your contract of employment. (Usually, either the
contract or the employees handbook should clearly state who has the
authority, when, where, and in what circumstances.) Most such
specific contract terms also warn that refusal will be a serious
disciplinary breach, and the employer can then act accordingly.

(Sometimes the fact that employers are known to search can itself mean
e.g.'lockers do not contain anything inapropriate
ever'. ie, it has the effect of deterring rather than detecting.)

Toom

[chris]

Thanks all,

In a nutshell certain managers who have been overlooked for
available promotion have now took it upon themselves to search employees
lockers in the desperate hope of finding just about anything that they can
manipulate into being in conravention to our code of discipline and I really
mean anything.They feel that they are number one in the organisation and the
fact that if they do find the slightest ambigious thing they cause an
investigation and then their names are up in lights again regardless of
anyone who has worked there for the last 25 years getting the sack for
nothing.
However it looks likewe dont stand a chance

Chris

Post by chris
Hello Group,
Can anyone furnish me with any legal ammo against over
zelous managers in my place of work who constantly try and bully staff into
opening their personal lockers to see if there is anything inapropriate
inside. These lockers do not contain anything inapropriate ever, they do
contain family photosand personal possessions etc. These searches are
completly random and it seems to me that it is an infringment of our right
to privacy however I need something to come back at them with.
Cheers
Chris

Normally, an employer has a right to stop and search, or to search
desks, offices, lockers etc, only if it is
specifically in your contract of employment. (Usually, either the
contract or the employees handbook should clearly state who has the
authority, when, where, and in what circumstances.) Most such
specific contract terms also warn that refusal will be a serious
disciplinary breach, and the employer can then act accordingly.

(Sometimes the fact that employers are known to search can itself mean
e.g.'lockers do not contain anything inapropriate
ever'. ie, it has the effect of deterring rather than detecting.)

Toom

[Fergus O'Rourke]

Post by chris
Thanks all,
In a nutshell certain managers who have been overlooked for
available promotion have now took it upon themselves to search employees
lockers in the desperate hope of finding just about anything that they can
manipulate into being in conravention to our code of discipline and I really
mean anything.They feel that they are number one in the organisation and the
fact that if they do find the slightest ambigious thing they cause an
investigation and then their names are up in lights again regardless of
anyone who has worked there for the last 25 years getting the sack for
nothing.
However it looks likewe dont stand a chance

How you can say that after reading me and - even more so - TT below, baffles
me.

What about your union - are they not prepared to challenge it ?

Post by chris

Post by chris
Hello Group,
Can anyone furnish me with any legal ammo against over
zelous managers in my place of work who constantly try and bully staff into
opening their personal lockers to see if there is anything inapropriate
inside. These lockers do not contain anything inapropriate ever, they do
contain family photosand personal possessions etc. These searches are
completly random and it seems to me that it is an infringment of our right
to privacy however I need something to come back at them with.
Cheers
Chris

Normally, an employer has a right to stop and search, or to search
desks, offices, lockers etc, only if it is
specifically in your contract of employment. (Usually, either the
contract or the employees handbook should clearly state who has the
authority, when, where, and in what circumstances.) Most such
specific contract terms also warn that refusal will be a serious
disciplinary breach, and the employer can then act accordingly.
(Sometimes the fact that employers are known to search can itself mean
e.g.'lockers do not contain anything inapropriate
ever'. ie, it has the effect of deterring rather than detecting.)
Toom