Discussion:
Non-hate crimes. How?
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Spike
2024-11-15 09:16:30 UTC
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Permalink
How on earth did such legislation come about?

It appears that one can be investigated by the police for an incident or
incidents that are not criminal in nature, and an entry made on a database
that likely will either end a career or bar a subject from one, from times
possibly before the legislation came into being. There is no ‘case’, no
charge, no trial, and most importantly, no defence possible.

Surely this is Orwellian in nature, giving the State via its functionaries
such as the police free rein to trawl history from times when these now
non-crimes were actually non-crimes. If it wasn’t concerning, it would be
bizarre.
--
Spike
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-15 09:30:23 UTC
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Post by Spike
How on earth did such legislation come about?
It appears that one can be investigated by the police for an incident or
incidents that are not criminal in nature, and an entry made on a database
that likely will either end a career or bar a subject from one, from times
possibly before the legislation came into being. There is no ‘case’, no
charge, no trial, and most importantly, no defence possible.
Surely this is Orwellian in nature, giving the State via its functionaries
such as the police free rein to trawl history from times when these now
non-crimes were actually non-crimes. If it wasn’t concerning, it would be
bizarre.
You might need to provide a clue as to what legislation you're referring to.
Jeff Layman
2024-11-15 09:45:36 UTC
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Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Spike
How on earth did such legislation come about?
It appears that one can be investigated by the police for an incident or
incidents that are not criminal in nature, and an entry made on a database
that likely will either end a career or bar a subject from one, from times
possibly before the legislation came into being. There is no ‘case’, no
charge, no trial, and most importantly, no defence possible.
Surely this is Orwellian in nature, giving the State via its functionaries
such as the police free rein to trawl history from times when these now
non-crimes were actually non-crimes. If it wasn’t concerning, it would be
bizarre.
You might need to provide a clue as to what legislation you're referring to.
Indeed, and isn't it Kafka as well as Orwell?
--
Jeff
billy bookcase
2024-11-15 10:06:51 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Spike
How on earth did such legislation come about?
It appears that one can be investigated by the police for an incident or
incidents that are not criminal in nature, and an entry made on a database
that likely will either end a career or bar a subject from one, from times
possibly before the legislation came into being. There is no 'case', no
charge, no trial, and most importantly, no defence possible.
Surely this is Orwellian in nature, giving the State via its functionaries
such as the police free rein to trawl history from times when these now
non-crimes were actually non-crimes. If it wasn't concerning, it would be
bizarre.
You might need to provide a clue as to what legislation you're referring to.
Presumably the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act of 2022
and its accompanying Code of Practice in respect of NCHI or Non
Crime Hate Incidents. A topic which is all over today's papers
like a rash *

to wit

: quote

3. This code will:

a.. ensure police officers and staff understand when and how it is appropriate to

b.. record an NCHI (including correct and proportionate NCHI recording and data

c.. retention practices);

blah, blah, blah.

:unquote

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/non-crime-hate-incidents-code-of-practice/non-crime-hate-incidents-code-of-practice-on-the-recording-and-retention-of-personal-data-accessible

It thus being acknowledged that its appropriate for police to record such
incidents "in certain circumstances" at least.

Some of which incidents some even applying to, wait for it, wait for it, school
children (one of whom said the other one smelt like fish) are featured in
this morning's press

* https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckg0kx3v6m0o


bb
JNugent
2024-11-21 03:25:02 UTC
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Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Spike
How on earth did such legislation come about?
It appears that one can be investigated by the police for an incident or
incidents that are not criminal in nature, and an entry made on a database
that likely will either end a career or bar a subject from one, from times
possibly before the legislation came into being. There is no ‘case’, no
charge, no trial, and most importantly, no defence possible.
Surely this is Orwellian in nature, giving the State via its functionaries
such as the police free rein to trawl history from times when these now
non-crimes were actually non-crimes. If it wasn’t concerning, it would be
bizarre.
You might need to provide a clue as to what legislation you're referring to.
You have just reinforced the point that Spike was making.
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Jethro_uk
2024-11-15 10:16:20 UTC
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Post by Spike
How on earth did such legislation come about?
It appears that one can be investigated by the police for an incident or
incidents that are not criminal in nature, and an entry made on a
database that likely will either end a career or bar a subject from one,
from times possibly before the legislation came into being. There is no
‘case’, no charge, no trial, and most importantly, no defence possible.
Surely this is Orwellian in nature, giving the State via its
functionaries such as the police free rein to trawl history from times
when these now non-crimes were actually non-crimes. If it wasn’t
concerning, it would be bizarre.
You appear to have missed the saga of Harry the Owl who was investigated
by police for a non-crime. Rozzers turned up to "check his thinking".

Problem was he's an ex police officer and not one to take their crap.

https://www.faircop.org.uk/case-studies/harry-miller/

Despite some posters here continually rebutting my views, I believe it
explains a lot about the current pisspoor police response to real crime.
Why on earth would anyone waste time on a real crime that might involve
real criminals when you can run around investigating non crimes that will
mean you get to browbeat middle aged ladies - and get paid for it ?
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-15 11:55:38 UTC
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Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Spike
How on earth did such legislation come about?
It appears that one can be investigated by the police for an incident or
incidents that are not criminal in nature, and an entry made on a
database that likely will either end a career or bar a subject from one,
from times possibly before the legislation came into being. There is no
‘case’, no charge, no trial, and most importantly, no defence possible.
Surely this is Orwellian in nature, giving the State via its
functionaries such as the police free rein to trawl history from times
when these now non-crimes were actually non-crimes. If it wasn’t
concerning, it would be bizarre.
You appear to have missed the saga of Harry the Owl who was investigated
by police for a non-crime. Rozzers turned up to "check his thinking".
Problem was he's an ex police officer and not one to take their crap.
https://www.faircop.org.uk/case-studies/harry-miller/
Personally I wouldn't believe a single word written on that website.
Pancho
2024-11-15 12:20:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Spike
How on earth did such legislation come about?
It appears that one can be investigated by the police for an incident or
incidents that are not criminal in nature, and an entry made on a
database that likely will either end a career or bar a subject from one,
from times possibly before the legislation came into being. There is no
‘case’, no charge, no trial, and most importantly, no defence possible.
Surely this is Orwellian in nature, giving the State via its
functionaries such as the police free rein to trawl history from times
when these now non-crimes were actually non-crimes. If it wasn’t
concerning, it would be bizarre.
You appear to have missed the saga of Harry the Owl who was investigated
by police for a non-crime. Rozzers turned up to "check his thinking".
Problem was he's an ex police officer and not one to take their crap.
https://www.faircop.org.uk/case-studies/harry-miller/
Personally I wouldn't believe a single word written on that website.
It gives a citation to The Telegraph, so I believe a lot of it. The
Telegraph may be biased, but like most MSM it is normally correct about
basic facts.

The benefit of reading diverse, potentially unreliable, news sources is
that they can point you to more reliable sources. The biggest problem
with our MSM is not unreliability, but bias. The prominence with which
they report information. The MSM hides stories they don't like, and
unreasonably promotes stories that fit their agenda. The trick is to
find the significant hidden stories.

My secondary school history teacher made the point that he read The
Morning Star, not because he was a communist, but because he wanted to
be aware of all points of view. He was right.
Roger Hayter
2024-11-15 10:57:19 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Spike
How on earth did such legislation come about?
It appears that one can be investigated by the police for an incident or
incidents that are not criminal in nature, and an entry made on a database
that likely will either end a career or bar a subject from one, from times
possibly before the legislation came into being. There is no ‘case’, no
charge, no trial, and most importantly, no defence possible.
Surely this is Orwellian in nature, giving the State via its functionaries
such as the police free rein to trawl history from times when these now
non-crimes were actually non-crimes. If it wasn’t concerning, it would be
bizarre.
I think any objection to this needed to start when the police were allowed to
include unproven allegations and prejudices in enhanced criminal record
checks. This was decades ago now.
--
Roger Hayter
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-15 12:07:50 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
How on earth did such legislation come about?
It appears that one can be investigated by the police for an incident or
incidents that are not criminal in nature, and an entry made on a database
that likely will either end a career or bar a subject from one, from times
possibly before the legislation came into being. There is no ‘case’, no
charge, no trial, and most importantly, no defence possible.
Surely this is Orwellian in nature, giving the State via its functionaries
such as the police free rein to trawl history from times when these now
non-crimes were actually non-crimes. If it wasn’t concerning, it would be
bizarre.
I think any objection to this needed to start when the police were
allowed to include unproven allegations and prejudices in enhanced
criminal record checks. This was decades ago now.
Indeed. It's an unintended result I think - the police are supposed to
use their judgement to decide what to include in an enhanced DBS check,
but they figure "best be on the safe side" and to include everything
and let the employer decide whether what they've included is important,
and the employer figures "best be on the safe side" and that the police
wouldn't have included it if it wasn't important, and to treat anything
other than a completely clear check as a fail.

Basically several parties involved are supposed to be using their
judgement and making proper decisions, but all of them instead find
it easier to not use any judgement and to avoid making any decisions.
And any legislation or guidance to improve the situation would
undoubtedly be described by the Daily Mail as being "soft on crime"
or worse, and so nothing can be done to fix it.
Pancho
2024-11-15 12:04:35 UTC
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Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
How on earth did such legislation come about?
It appears that one can be investigated by the police for an incident or
incidents that are not criminal in nature, and an entry made on a database
that likely will either end a career or bar a subject from one, from times
possibly before the legislation came into being. There is no ‘case’, no
charge, no trial, and most importantly, no defence possible.
Surely this is Orwellian in nature, giving the State via its functionaries
such as the police free rein to trawl history from times when these now
non-crimes were actually non-crimes. If it wasn’t concerning, it would be
bizarre.
I think any objection to this needed to start when the police were allowed to
include unproven allegations and prejudices in enhanced criminal record
checks. This was decades ago now.
I think you are mixing two separate issues. Rape, for instance. Very
hard to prove to a criminal standard, but there are obvious reasons you
might want to be warned about a person against whom credible rape
accusations have been made, when considering them for a role with
vulnerable people. In general I think the idea is good, while accepting
the application is poor. There needs to be a metric to measure
credibility, which of course is very difficult to achieve. Employers
hate to take responsibility for discounting even very low probability
allegations, so very strong safeguards are needed.

However, this thread is about political wrong think. I think recording
wrong think is OK, it is just police intelligence. However I can't see
that it should be disclosed to, or acted upon, by third parties.
billy bookcase
2024-11-15 14:59:13 UTC
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However, this thread is about political wrong think. I think recording wrong think is
OK, it is just police intelligence. However I can't see that it should be disclosed to,
or acted upon, by third parties.
Except its not just "wrong think", is it ?

Even if it involves nine years olds*, it involves messages nine year olds
are posting on social media.

Which then raises all sorts of questions.

Should the police spend their time monitoring social media at all ?

Shouldn't the parents of these nine year olds be concerned by the fact that
their children are able to post messages on social media which are not only being
read by the police, but also presumably by anyone else so minded ?

And of course its only in these instances that it's been confirmed that these
actually were nine year olds, and not peados and similar posing as nine
year olds.

As is well known In the 19th century two Opium Wars resulted from the
determination of the British (mainly) to export opium into China mainly
in exchange for tea, opium which the Chinese Emperors and govt
at the time regarded as harmful to their people, and did their best to
try and prevent. To no avail.

Latterly Xi Jinping appears to be developing a similar attitude towards
social media possibly recognising its potential for unwarranted speculation
and social unrest. And is seemingly willing to do something about it, it
would seem.


bb

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1976380/children-investigated-police-hate-crime
miked
2024-11-15 17:33:01 UTC
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Post by billy bookcase
However, this thread is about political wrong think. I think recording wrong think is
OK, it is just police intelligence. However I can't see that it should be disclosed to,
or acted upon, by third parties.
Except its not just "wrong think", is it ?
Even if it involves nine years olds*, it involves messages nine year olds
are posting on social media.
Which then raises all sorts of questions.
Should the police spend their time monitoring social media at all ?
There was a case in france recently where a muslim girl lied to her
parents that a geography teacher had insulted the prophet in a class
[which she hadnt actually attended], which accusations were repeated
online, and led to the teacher being decapitated outside the school by a
chechen refugee.

I doubt the police do spend much time monitoring social media except
when particular threats are reported to them, and probably not even
then. But nowadays it doesnt take much for some people even children to
be egged on to acts of extreme violence which may have a trivial cause.
Most problems at schools concern bullying. Shouldnt children be
encouraged to report bullying? But if nothing is done, the bullies have
won and are stronger. Schools are usually loath to involve the police
and accept there is such a problem, so I am surprised that the Times
seems to suggest this is a common event even at primary schools.

mike
billy bookcase
2024-11-16 11:32:30 UTC
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Post by miked
Post by billy bookcase
However, this thread is about political wrong think. I think recording wrong think is
OK, it is just police intelligence. However I can't see that it should be disclosed to,
or acted upon, by third parties.
Except its not just "wrong think", is it ?
Even if it involves nine years olds*, it involves messages nine year olds
are posting on social media.
Which then raises all sorts of questions.
Should the police spend their time monitoring social media at all ?
There was a case in france recently where a muslim girl lied to her
parents that a geography teacher had insulted the prophet in a class
[which she hadnt actually attended], which accusations were repeated
online, and led to the teacher being decapitated outside the school by a
chechen refugee.
I doubt the police do spend much time monitoring social media except
when particular threats are reported to them, and probably not even
then.
You're probably right about that. They mostly likely respond to
complaints rather than actively monitoring much, if any social
media.

As any "usual suspects" are probably sufficiently ambiguous
in what they do post on social media, that it would make
monitoring them a waste of time.

As Farage's evasions in respect of the "speculation" which led
to the rioting, would tend to confirm.
Post by miked
But nowadays it doesnt take much for some people even children to
be egged on to acts of extreme violence which may have a trivial cause.
Most problems at schools concern bullying. Shouldnt children be
encouraged to report bullying? But if nothing is done, the bullies have
won and are stronger. Schools are usually loath to involve the police
and accept there is such a problem, so I am surprised that the Times
seems to suggest this is a common event even at primary schools.
You're 100% correct about this and I apologise for seeming to make
light of the subject in respect of the remark shared by the two children
about the other child smelling of fish

I then went on to write three paragraphs of verbiage concerning the
difference between "bullying" where one powerful (in one way or
another usually violence, wealth or ridicule ) individual, terrorises
weaker individuals. And "piling in". Where a number of weak individuals
pile in and heap ridicule contempt or condemnation on a particular
individual for whatever reason. While they target individuals - be they
Jews Muslims or whoever as being representative rather than the actual
"ideas" they supposedly represent; as this keep[s things simple

The main reason in many cases possibly being FO.M.O

"Fear of missing out."

Which along with the "Like" button, is apparently one of the main drivers
behind social media participation for large number of users


I then snipped it all, as clearly "bullies" can be cheerleaders for
"piling in" as well. Although not necessarily so,

Apparently all the evidence, none of which I can cite off hand suggests that
"some" children at least can be especially cruel towards other children (Although
others might wan to suggest that developing resistance to such cruelty
is a necessary part of the growing up process same as cold baths
used to be at public schools. Along with the beatings.)

So that some children at least might be especially vulnerable to such
"piling in" on social media (whereas adults might be in fear of their jobs)

* Such is the hold social media has over so many people*

So that if the whole class rather than just one or two children suggested
a particularly vulnerable classmate smelled of fish then this might have
had a more tragic outcome. Except that in this instance they didn't and
so there wasn't. But the potential is there presumably with so many
children apparently using social media.



bb
Mark Goodge
2024-11-15 14:34:38 UTC
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Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
How on earth did such legislation come about?
It appears that one can be investigated by the police for an incident or
incidents that are not criminal in nature, and an entry made on a database
that likely will either end a career or bar a subject from one, from times
possibly before the legislation came into being. There is no ‘case’, no
charge, no trial, and most importantly, no defence possible.
Surely this is Orwellian in nature, giving the State via its functionaries
such as the police free rein to trawl history from times when these now
non-crimes were actually non-crimes. If it wasn’t concerning, it would be
bizarre.
I think any objection to this needed to start when the police were allowed to
include unproven allegations and prejudices in enhanced criminal record
checks. This was decades ago now.
It's complicated, and when you look at it more closely it doesn't fit the
somewhat polarised political debate around it.

It's clearly beneficial to the police, and to society as a whole, for the
police to keep records of intelligence-led information about people or
organisations where there is a reasonable suspicion that they are engaged in
crime but where there is not yet sufficient evidence to justify prosecution.
Equally, it's clearly beneficial for all concerned (except, obviously,
criminals) the police to record plausible, but as yet unsubstantiated,
allegations of crime where there is a realistic prospect that further
evidence may subsequently be forthcoming. In fact, a bit more of that type
of recording might have led to the likes of Jimmy Savile and John Smyth
facing justice before they died.

But, on the other hand, it's also something which is clearly open to abuse,
either by the police themselves recording prejudice-led rather than
intelligence-led information or by unquestioningly accepting implausible
allegations that have no prospect of holding up under investigation. And
this is particularly the case where that information may be disclosed to
third parties, for example via an EDBS check.

So there does need to be effective regulation of how and when the police can
record such information, and on how long it should be stored and what should
be done with it. That simple fact is, I would hope, uncontroversial. But
there's clearly going to be a lot of entirely valid disagreement over the
precise form of such regulation. The balance between making it easier to
catch criminals and not making the PNC an instrument of mass defamation
isn't going to be easy to find.

"Non-crime hate incidents", in particular, are almost inevitably going to
fall squarely into that zone of disagreement. On the one hand, it's highly
likely that those who go as far as actually breaking the law - eg, by
scrawling antisemitic graffiti on the wall of a synagogue, or lobbing stones
at the windows of buildings housing asylum seekers - will accompany those
actions with legal, but clearly abusive, messages on social media. So
recording those messages is intelligence-led policing, it helps build the
case against those individuals when they do commit a crime.

But, on the other hand, the vast majority of people are perfectly capable of
controlling themselves to the extent of not resorting to violence against
persons or property, even if they may occasionally lapse into verbal abuse
when they feel provoked (whether justified or not). And, equally, there is a
tendency, particularly on social media, for people to perceive disagreement
as abuse. Just because someone feels triggered by something posted on social
media does not mean that the person making the post has done anything wrong,
other than possibly being clumsy with their wording - which is not, and
cannot possibly be, a criminal offence.

So, just as with any other non-crime data recorded against a person, the
police have to tread a fine line with non-crime hate incidents and do their
best to ensure that they are only recorded where there is a realistic and
non-trivial probability that it may be linked to, or a precurser of, an
actual crime. And, as with any other non-crime data, there is always going
to be valid disagreement about how this should be regulated.

Having said that, the story reported in The Times today does, on the face of
it, contain examples which, if accurately reported (and I'm not suggesting
that it isn't accurate) clearly should not have been recorded as non-crime
hate incidents. To that extent, there is a genuine concern.

But... anecdotes are not statistics. The article gives thirteen specific
examples, of which, assuming they are accurately reported (same disclaimer
as above), nine are clearly not NCHIs by any reasonable stretch of the
imagination (two could be, depending on other information which the article
doesn't include, and both of them I'd definitely have logged if I'd been the
officer involved). That's out of a total of 13,200 NCHIs reported to the
police over a twelve-month period. Now, I'm willing to accept that there
were more than just those, and that the ones mentioned in the article were
chosen because they were a representative sample that are easily understood.
But, even so, the article doesn't give the impression that mis-recorded
NCHIs form a particularly high proportion of the total.

That doesn't mean there's no problem. Given the potential harm that can be
caused by wrongly recording an NCHI, the police do have to think carefully
about them, and in nine of the examples quoted by the report it's pretty
obvious that such thought was almost completely lacking. But these are
individual errors by individual members of the police. And the police are
human just like the rest of us, they, too, make mistakes sometimes.

The report doesn't, to me, give the impression that the police are routinely
and systematically disregarding the guidelines for recording NCHIs. It does,
possibly, suggest that not all individual officers are as well trained in
the guidelines as they could be, although it could equally suggest that the
police are overworked and under pressure to cut corners. It's often quicker
and easier to tell a complainant that yes, you've logged it as an NCHI,
hoping that will satisfy them and you can then forget about it, than it is
to explain why you won't be logging it. Maybe the police should push back
more at unreasonable NCHI complaints. But then maybe we should give them the
resources to do so.

Mark
Handsome Jack
2024-11-21 16:33:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Goodge
It's complicated, and when you look at it more closely it doesn't fit
the somewhat polarised political debate around it.
It's clearly beneficial to the police, and to society as a whole, for
the police to keep records of intelligence-led information about people
or organisations where there is a reasonable suspicion that they are
engaged in crime but where there is not yet sufficient evidence to
justify prosecution.
Equally, it's clearly beneficial for all concerned (except, obviously,
criminals) the police to record plausible, but as yet unsubstantiated,
allegations of crime where there is a realistic prospect that further
evidence may subsequently be forthcoming. In fact, a bit more of that
type of recording might have led to the likes of Jimmy Savile and John
Smyth facing justice before they died.
But, on the other hand, it's also something which is clearly open to
abuse, either by the police themselves recording prejudice-led rather
than intelligence-led information or by unquestioningly accepting
implausible allegations that have no prospect of holding up under
investigation. And this is particularly the case where that information
may be disclosed to third parties, for example via an EDBS check.
So there does need to be effective regulation of how and when the police
can record such information, and on how long it should be stored and
what should be done with it. That simple fact is, I would hope,
uncontroversial. But there's clearly going to be a lot of entirely valid
disagreement over the precise form of such regulation. The balance
between making it easier to catch criminals and not making the PNC an
instrument of mass defamation isn't going to be easy to find.
"Non-crime hate incidents", in particular, are almost inevitably going
to fall squarely into that zone of disagreement. On the one hand, it's
highly likely that those who go as far as actually breaking the law -
eg, by scrawling antisemitic graffiti on the wall of a synagogue, or
lobbing stones at the windows of buildings housing asylum seekers - will
accompany those actions with legal, but clearly abusive, messages on
social media. So recording those messages is intelligence-led policing,
it helps build the case against those individuals when they do commit a
crime.
But, on the other hand, the vast majority of people are perfectly
capable of controlling themselves to the extent of not resorting to
violence against persons or property, even if they may occasionally
lapse into verbal abuse when they feel provoked (whether justified or
not). And, equally, there is a tendency, particularly on social media,
for people to perceive disagreement as abuse. Just because someone feels
triggered by something posted on social media does not mean that the
person making the post has done anything wrong,
other than possibly being clumsy with their wording - which is not, and
cannot possibly be, a criminal offence.
So, just as with any other non-crime data recorded against a person, the
police have to tread a fine line with non-crime hate incidents and do
their best to ensure that they are only recorded where there is a
realistic and non-trivial probability that it may be linked to, or a
precurser of, an actual crime. And, as with any other non-crime data,
there is always going to be valid disagreement about how this should be
regulated.
But the public criticisms of the Pearson incident are not about the police
*recording* so-called non-crime hate incidents, but that they *act* on
them despite knowing that a crime has not been committed . That they go
along to some NCHI perpetrator's house and say, "You said this naughty
thing on Facebook, ok it's not a crime but you have to come along to the
police station so that we can tell you off." [*]

*That* is what is so objectionable. Of course, one can also reasonably
object to them merely *recording* these incidents for use in future
investigations, as you say; but that's a different issue.

[*] I am aware that the police, or some of them, have now denied that the
Pearson incident was a NCHI. However, it is admitted that the police *do*
actually do this, which is sufficient for our purpose here.
Roland Perry
2024-11-15 16:58:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
How on earth did such legislation come about?
It appears that one can be investigated by the police for an incident or
incidents that are not criminal in nature, and an entry made on a database
that likely will either end a career or bar a subject from one, from times
possibly before the legislation came into being. There is no ‘case’, no
charge, no trial, and most importantly, no defence possible.
Surely this is Orwellian in nature, giving the State via its functionaries
such as the police free rein to trawl history from times when these now
non-crimes were actually non-crimes. If it wasn’t concerning, it would be
bizarre.
I think any objection to this needed to start when the police were allowed to
include unproven allegations and prejudices in enhanced criminal record
checks. This was decades ago now.
Although that still allowed Ian Huntley to get a job at a school which
two unfortunate girls DID NOT attend. (That latter point often
overlooked).
--
Roland Perry
Roger Hayter
2024-11-15 18:06:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
How on earth did such legislation come about?
It appears that one can be investigated by the police for an incident or
incidents that are not criminal in nature, and an entry made on a database
that likely will either end a career or bar a subject from one, from times
possibly before the legislation came into being. There is no ‘case’, no
charge, no trial, and most importantly, no defence possible.
Surely this is Orwellian in nature, giving the State via its functionaries
such as the police free rein to trawl history from times when these now
non-crimes were actually non-crimes. If it wasn’t concerning, it would be
bizarre.
I think any objection to this needed to start when the police were allowed to
include unproven allegations and prejudices in enhanced criminal record
checks. This was decades ago now.
Although that still allowed Ian Huntley to get a job at a school which
two unfortunate girls DID NOT attend. (That latter point often
overlooked).
Was that not before "enhanced" gossip reporting, and used as a justification
for the latter? Although enhanced reporting came in before the murders but
after Huntley's appointment. That is my recollection of the sequence of
events, at least.
--
Roger Hayter
Roland Perry
2024-11-15 19:38:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Spike
How on earth did such legislation come about?
It appears that one can be investigated by the police for an incident or
incidents that are not criminal in nature, and an entry made on a database
that likely will either end a career or bar a subject from one, from times
possibly before the legislation came into being. There is no ‘case’, no
charge, no trial, and most importantly, no defence possible.
Surely this is Orwellian in nature, giving the State via its functionaries
such as the police free rein to trawl history from times when these now
non-crimes were actually non-crimes. If it wasn’t concerning, it would be
bizarre.
I think any objection to this needed to start when the police were
allowed to include unproven allegations and prejudices in enhanced
criminal record checks. This was decades ago now.
Although that still allowed Ian Huntley to get a job at a school which
two unfortunate girls DID NOT attend. (That latter point often
overlooked).
Was that not before "enhanced" gossip reporting, and used as a justification
for the latter? Although enhanced reporting came in before the murders but
after Huntley's appointment. That is my recollection of the sequence of
events, at least.
I wouldn't characterise it as "gossip", for example they'd failed to
record a change of name, which is a fact. And there had been fifteen
complaints made against him, one of which resulted in a week on remand.
Plus a charge of burglary.
--
Roland Perry
Brian
2024-11-15 13:47:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Spike
How on earth did such legislation come about?
It appears that one can be investigated by the police for an incident or
incidents that are not criminal in nature, and an entry made on a database
that likely will either end a career or bar a subject from one, from times
possibly before the legislation came into being. There is no ‘case’, no
charge, no trial, and most importantly, no defence possible.
Surely this is Orwellian in nature, giving the State via its functionaries
such as the police free rein to trawl history from times when these now
non-crimes were actually non-crimes. If it wasn’t concerning, it would be
bizarre.
It is almost like ‘thought crime’ except someone else, the ‘victim’, thinks
the ‘culprit’ has said / written something but the ‘culprit’ isn’t even
permitted to know what it is.


In the current case, it appears the ‘accused’ has not been informed which
Tweet is the subject of the investigation.

How on earth can the ‘suspect’ be questioned and offer any explanation of
their claimed action if they don’t know what it is?

That is before we even get to the matter of non-crimes and the police being
involved.
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-15 14:32:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Brian
Post by Spike
How on earth did such legislation come about?
It appears that one can be investigated by the police for an incident or
incidents that are not criminal in nature, and an entry made on a database
that likely will either end a career or bar a subject from one, from times
possibly before the legislation came into being. There is no ‘case’, no
charge, no trial, and most importantly, no defence possible.
Surely this is Orwellian in nature, giving the State via its functionaries
such as the police free rein to trawl history from times when these now
non-crimes were actually non-crimes. If it wasn’t concerning, it would be
bizarre.
It is almost like ‘thought crime’ except someone else, the ‘victim’, thinks
the ‘culprit’ has said / written something but the ‘culprit’ isn’t even
permitted to know what it is.
In the current case, it appears the ‘accused’ has not been informed which
Tweet is the subject of the investigation.
How on earth can the ‘suspect’ be questioned and offer any explanation of
their claimed action if they don’t know what it is?
If you are talking about the case involving a Telegraph columnist,
it is not about a "non-crime hate incident", it is about a potential
criminal offence of inciting racial hatred contrary to s18 of the Public
Order Act 1986.

They have not been questioned but have been invited for interview.
Presumably they would be told what tweet is being investigated
before they would be asked to put their side of the story.
Mark Goodge
2024-11-15 20:33:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 15 Nov 2024 14:32:54 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens
Post by Jon Ribbens
How on earth can the ‘suspect’ be questioned and offer any explanation of
their claimed action if they don’t know what it is?
If you are talking about the case involving a Telegraph columnist,
it is not about a "non-crime hate incident", it is about a potential
criminal offence of inciting racial hatred contrary to s18 of the Public
Order Act 1986.
They have not been questioned but have been invited for interview.
Presumably they would be told what tweet is being investigated
before they would be asked to put their side of the story.
And it turns out that, actually, it's a huge cock-up. The tweet that was
reported was by a different Alison Pearson. The police spoke to the wrong
one.

https://twitter.com/Towler/status/1857519783752651106

Mark
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-15 22:19:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Goodge
On Fri, 15 Nov 2024 14:32:54 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens
Post by Jon Ribbens
How on earth can the ‘suspect’ be questioned and offer any
explanation of their claimed action if they don’t know what it
is?
If you are talking about the case involving a Telegraph columnist,
it is not about a "non-crime hate incident", it is about a potential
criminal offence of inciting racial hatred contrary to s18 of the Public
Order Act 1986.
They have not been questioned but have been invited for interview.
Presumably they would be told what tweet is being investigated
before they would be asked to put their side of the story.
And it turns out that, actually, it's a huge cock-up. The tweet that was
reported was by a different Alison Pearson. The police spoke to the wrong
one.
https://twitter.com/Towler/status/1857519783752651106
That's assuming both that that's the tweet the Guardian are on about,
and that the Guardian correctly guessed which tweet the police are on
about.

Also, the police say they have bodycam footage of their talk with the
columnist Pearson which contradicts her account of what they said.

But yeah, masses of egg on the faces of the police if that is the tweet.
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-17 15:18:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Mark Goodge
On Fri, 15 Nov 2024 14:32:54 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens
Post by Jon Ribbens
How on earth can the ‘suspect’ be questioned and offer any
explanation of their claimed action if they don’t know what it
is?
If you are talking about the case involving a Telegraph columnist,
it is not about a "non-crime hate incident", it is about a potential
criminal offence of inciting racial hatred contrary to s18 of the Public
Order Act 1986.
They have not been questioned but have been invited for interview.
Presumably they would be told what tweet is being investigated
before they would be asked to put their side of the story.
And it turns out that, actually, it's a huge cock-up. The tweet that was
reported was by a different Alison Pearson. The police spoke to the wrong
one.
https://twitter.com/Towler/status/1857519783752651106
That's assuming both that that's the tweet the Guardian are on about,
and that the Guardian correctly guessed which tweet the police are on
about.
Also, the police say they have bodycam footage of their talk with the
columnist Pearson which contradicts her account of what they said.
But yeah, masses of egg on the faces of the police if that is the tweet.
If this archive is accurate then it appears the police did not, in fact,
get the wrong person, and their faces are entirely egg-free:

https://archive.is/sekqM
Pancho
2024-11-17 15:58:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Mark Goodge
On Fri, 15 Nov 2024 14:32:54 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens
Post by Jon Ribbens
How on earth can the ‘suspect’ be questioned and offer any
explanation of their claimed action if they don’t know what it
is?
If you are talking about the case involving a Telegraph columnist,
it is not about a "non-crime hate incident", it is about a potential
criminal offence of inciting racial hatred contrary to s18 of the Public
Order Act 1986.
They have not been questioned but have been invited for interview.
Presumably they would be told what tweet is being investigated
before they would be asked to put their side of the story.
And it turns out that, actually, it's a huge cock-up. The tweet that was
reported was by a different Alison Pearson. The police spoke to the wrong
one.
https://twitter.com/Towler/status/1857519783752651106
That's assuming both that that's the tweet the Guardian are on about,
and that the Guardian correctly guessed which tweet the police are on
about.
Also, the police say they have bodycam footage of their talk with the
columnist Pearson which contradicts her account of what they said.
But yeah, masses of egg on the faces of the police if that is the tweet.
If this archive is accurate then it appears the police did not, in fact,
https://archive.is/sekqM
Yes. I wasn't understanding this. It does seem to be the Allison Pearson.

Presumably it was a mistake. The tweet is clearly unjustified, stupid,
and maybe even defamatory. To me it seems worse than some anti-zionist
stuff investigated for inciting racial hatred or written racial
harassment . The Telegraph have never seemed overly concerned about the
free speech of Tony Greenstein.
Ottavio Caruso
2024-11-18 14:36:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pancho
Presumably it was a mistake. The tweet is clearly unjustified, stupid,
and maybe even defamatory
Defamatory to whom? Can you not criticize the Police?
--
Ottavio Caruso
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-18 18:36:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by Pancho
Presumably it was a mistake. The tweet is clearly unjustified, stupid,
and maybe even defamatory
Defamatory to whom? Can you not criticize the Police?
There were people mentioned in the tweet who were not police.
Pamela
2024-11-19 10:57:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by Pancho
Presumably it was a mistake. The tweet is clearly unjustified, stupid,
and maybe even defamatory
Defamatory to whom? Can you not criticize the Police?
There were people mentioned in the tweet who were not police.
It's been pointed out that Pearson's tweet is potentially ambiguous. Is
she referrring to the Pakistanis or to the police in the photo when she
refers to "Jew haters"?

She wrote:

How dare they. @metpoliceuk
Invited to pose for a photo with lovely peaceful British Friends of
Israel on Saturday police refused.
Look at this lot smiling with the Jew haters.

<https://archive.is/sekqM#selection-467.0-479.153>
Jethro_uk
2024-11-19 12:00:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
[quoted text muted]
It's been pointed out that Pearson's tweet is potentially ambiguous
Not really a great epitaph for a "journalist" is it ?
billy bookcase
2024-11-19 11:40:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by Pancho
Presumably it was a mistake. The tweet is clearly unjustified, stupid,
and maybe even defamatory
Defamatory to whom? Can you not criticize the Police?
There were people mentioned in the tweet who were not police.
It's been pointed out that Pearson's tweet is potentially ambiguous. Is
she referrring to the Pakistanis or to the police in the photo when she
refers to "*** haters"? (Just to avoid the Keyword filter )
Invited to pose for a photo with lovely peaceful British Friends of
Israel on Saturday police refused.
Look at this lot smiling with the *** haters.
<https://archive.is/sekqM#selection-467.0-479.153>
Is it being claimed that its possibly the policemen in tbe photo who
its being claimed are the *** Haters ?

But whichever is the case, the individuals in the photograph will
be recognisable - by someone at least. Or more likely by
more than just one person.

So that even if the accuser was unaware of the identity of the
people in the photograph when making the claim, that *presumably*
would be no real defence.

As the only real test, would be what any reader who recognised the
people in the photograph, and the people they told, would understand
by the claim


bb
Roger Hayter
2024-11-19 12:58:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by Pancho
Presumably it was a mistake. The tweet is clearly unjustified, stupid,
and maybe even defamatory
Defamatory to whom? Can you not criticize the Police?
There were people mentioned in the tweet who were not police.
It's been pointed out that Pearson's tweet is potentially ambiguous. Is
she referrring to the Pakistanis or to the police in the photo when she
refers to "Jew haters"?
Invited to pose for a photo with lovely peaceful British Friends of
Israel on Saturday police refused.
Look at this lot smiling with the Jew haters.
<https://archive.is/sekqM#selection-467.0-479.153>
That would be a credible ambiguity if any of the Pakistan party supporters
(they may well be British rather than Pakistani) were, in fact, smiling.
--
Roger Hayter
Pamela
2024-11-19 13:44:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 19 Nov 2024 at 10:57:45 GMT, "Pamela"
Post by Pamela
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by Pancho
Presumably it was a mistake. The tweet is clearly unjustified,
stupid, and maybe even defamatory
Defamatory to whom? Can you not criticize the Police?
There were people mentioned in the tweet who were not police.
It's been pointed out that Pearson's tweet is potentially ambiguous.
Is she referrring to the Pakistanis or to the police in the photo
when she refers to "Jew haters"?
Invited to pose for a photo with lovely peaceful British Friends
of Israel on Saturday police refused.
Look at this lot smiling with the Jew haters.
<https://archive.is/sekqM#selection-467.0-479.153>
That would be a credible ambiguity if any of the Pakistan party
supporters (they may well be British rather than Pakistani) were, in
fact, smiling.
The video shows both Pakistanis pictured in the screengrab are smiling. I
don't know if Allison Pearson saw this original or just the still.

https://x.com/benonwine/status/1725181885293236569/video/1
billy bookcase
2024-11-19 14:13:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
The video shows both Pakistanis pictured in the screengrab are smiling. I
don't know if Allison Pearson saw this original or just the still.
https://x.com/benonwine/status/1725181885293236569/video/1
And you know they are Pakistanis how exactly ?

Isn't it possible that British citizens concerned about events
in Pakistan, might not wish to support that particular cause ?


bb
Roger Hayter
2024-11-19 14:30:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Pamela
The video shows both Pakistanis pictured in the screengrab are smiling. I
don't know if Allison Pearson saw this original or just the still.
https://x.com/benonwine/status/1725181885293236569/video/1
And you know they are Pakistanis how exactly ?
Isn't it possible that British citizens concerned about events
in Pakistan, might not wish to support that particular cause ?
bb
The police are escorting a peaceful parade, by walking at the front. They
usually do that. The parade is cheerful and not particularly protesting about
anything. The police are cheerful because if is a happy occasion and there is
nothing requiring action to keep the peace. They are not posing for anything,
a person is using their phone (they have cameras nowadays, M'lud) to
photograph the parade. No rational person could suggest that by escorting a
legal public parade the police are expressing support for any particular
party.

I see no rational basis for your question. Surely the police should not be
asked to scowl and wear riot gear any time they see anyone with a brown face?
That is the only logical conclusion to be drawn from most of the Twitter
comments, and indeed yours.
--
Roger Hayter
billy bookcase
2024-11-19 14:42:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Pamela
The video shows both Pakistanis pictured in the screengrab are smiling. I
don't know if Allison Pearson saw this original or just the still.
https://x.com/benonwine/status/1725181885293236569/video/1
And you know they are Pakistanis how exactly ?
Isn't it possible that British citizens concerned about events
in Pakistan, might not wish to support that particular cause ?
bb
The police are escorting a peaceful parade, by walking at the front. They
usually do that. The parade is cheerful and not particularly protesting about
anything. The police are cheerful because if is a happy occasion and there is
nothing requiring action to keep the peace. They are not posing for anything,
a person is using their phone (they have cameras nowadays, M'lud) to
photograph the parade. No rational person could suggest that by escorting a
legal public parade the police are expressing support for any particular
party.
I see no rational basis for your question. Surely the police should not be
asked to scowl and wear riot gear any time they see anyone with a brown face?
That is the only logical conclusion to be drawn from most of the Twitter
comments, and indeed yours.
What has any of that got do with the assumption that the two people holding the
flag are Pakistanis ? And not British citizens ?


bb
Roger Hayter
2024-11-19 15:30:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Pamela
The video shows both Pakistanis pictured in the screengrab are smiling. I
don't know if Allison Pearson saw this original or just the still.
https://x.com/benonwine/status/1725181885293236569/video/1
And you know they are Pakistanis how exactly ?
Isn't it possible that British citizens concerned about events
in Pakistan, might not wish to support that particular cause ?
bb
The police are escorting a peaceful parade, by walking at the front. They
usually do that. The parade is cheerful and not particularly protesting about
anything. The police are cheerful because if is a happy occasion and there is
nothing requiring action to keep the peace. They are not posing for anything,
a person is using their phone (they have cameras nowadays, M'lud) to
photograph the parade. No rational person could suggest that by escorting a
legal public parade the police are expressing support for any particular
party.
I see no rational basis for your question. Surely the police should not be
asked to scowl and wear riot gear any time they see anyone with a brown face?
That is the only logical conclusion to be drawn from most of the Twitter
comments, and indeed yours.
Oh, and for completeness, the alleged "journalist" for the Telegraph
complained that the police would not "pose for photographs" with some Israeli
supporting group. Now that would be taking sides, and is totally different
from a non-posed picture of the police doing their job. And the Israeli group
could no doubt have obtained a similar photograph of the police leading their
parade had they so wished. Indeed, for all I know they did. The said
journalist doesn't seem particularly good with facts.
--
Roger Hayter
Pamela
2024-11-19 19:46:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Pamela
The video shows both Pakistanis pictured in the screengrab are
smiling. I don't know if Allison Pearson saw this original or just
the still.
https://x.com/benonwine/status/1725181885293236569/video/1
And you know they are Pakistanis how exactly ?
Isn't it possible that British citizens concerned about events
in Pakistan, might not wish to support that particular cause ?
bb
The police are escorting a peaceful parade, by walking at the front.
They usually do that. The parade is cheerful and not particularly
protesting about anything. The police are cheerful because if is a
happy occasion and there is nothing requiring action to keep the
peace. They are not posing for anything, a person is using their
phone (they have cameras nowadays, M'lud) to photograph the parade.
No rational person could suggest that by escorting a legal public
parade the police are expressing support for any particular party.
I see no rational basis for your question. Surely the police should
not be asked to scowl and wear riot gear any time they see anyone
with a brown face?
That is the only logical conclusion to be drawn from most of the
Twitter comments, and indeed yours.
Oh, and for completeness, the alleged "journalist" for the Telegraph
complained that the police would not "pose for photographs" with some
Israeli supporting group. Now that would be taking sides, and is
totally different from a non-posed picture of the police doing their
job. And the Israeli group could no doubt have obtained a similar
photograph of the police leading their parade had they so wished.
Indeed, for all I know they did. The said journalist doesn't seem
particularly good with facts.
I may be useful to see the video (above).

In it, you do not see the police escorting a parade.

Also they are posing with smiles, rather than being taken up by the spirit
of the cheerful occassion. Why would they find a particular Pakistani
political party a matter to be cheerful?
Pamela
2024-11-19 14:33:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Pamela
The video shows both Pakistanis pictured in the screengrab are
smiling. I don't know if Allison Pearson saw this original or just
the still.
https://x.com/benonwine/status/1725181885293236569/video/1
And you know they are Pakistanis how exactly ?
Isn't it possible that British citizens concerned about events in
Pakistan, might not wish to support that particular cause ?
bb
That's quite true.

Observers have been quick to label them as Pakistanis, but I suspect
they could be referring to nationality ... rather than citizenship or
place of birth.

Before this affair is over, those two standing with the police may
get identified and all such speculation will end.
billy bookcase
2024-11-18 19:55:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Presumably it was a mistake. The tweet is clearly unjustified, stupid, and maybe even
defamatory
Defamatory to whom? Can you not criticize the Police?
The defamatory implication is that all Muslims are Anti-Semitic.

Whereas in reality, at present some Palestinians and their supporters
are Anti Israeli, or more specifically Anti-Netanyahu.


bb
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-18 20:29:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by Pancho
Presumably it was a mistake. The tweet is clearly unjustified,
stupid, and maybe even defamatory
Defamatory to whom? Can you not criticize the Police?
The defamatory implication is that all Muslims are Anti-Semitic.
That would be a racist implication. A defamatory implication would be
that the specific people depicted were anti-semitic.
Post by billy bookcase
Whereas in reality, at present some Palestinians and their supporters
are Anti Israeli, or more specifically Anti-Netanyahu.
Pamela
2024-11-19 10:54:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by Pancho
Presumably it was a mistake. The tweet is clearly unjustified,
stupid, and maybe even defamatory
Defamatory to whom? Can you not criticize the Police?
The defamatory implication is that all Muslims are Anti-Semitic.
That would be a racist implication. A defamatory implication would be
that the specific people depicted were anti-semitic.
Are Muslims now considered effectively equivalent to a "race" in UK law? I
recall there was a debate about this not long ago.
Roger Hayter
2024-11-19 13:02:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by Pancho
Presumably it was a mistake. The tweet is clearly unjustified,
stupid, and maybe even defamatory
Defamatory to whom? Can you not criticize the Police?
The defamatory implication is that all Muslims are Anti-Semitic.
That would be a racist implication. A defamatory implication would be
that the specific people depicted were anti-semitic.
Are Muslims now considered effectively equivalent to a "race" in UK law? I
recall there was a debate about this not long ago.
The so-called debate, was resolved when it was pointed out to the ignorant
that both religion and nationality are treated as protected characteristics
under the Equality Act.
--
Roger Hayter
Pamela
2024-11-19 11:08:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by Pancho
Presumably it was a mistake. The tweet is clearly unjustified,
stupid, and maybe even defamatory
Defamatory to whom? Can you not criticize the Police?
The defamatory implication is that all Muslims are Anti-Semitic.
Whereas in reality, at present some Palestinians and their supporters
are Anti Israeli, or more specifically Anti-Netanyahu.
bb
It's not an entirely inaccurate generalisation to say Pakistanis dislike
Jews. This Pew Research survey found as many as 78% of Pakistanis
disliked Israelis.

<https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2010/02/04/chapter-3-views-of-religious-groups/>

Similarly, "Report on Global Anti-Semitism" observes:

"in Pakistan, a country without a Jewish community, antisemitic
sentiment fanned by antisemitic articles in the press is widespread"

https://2009-2017.state.gov/j/drl/rls/40258.htm
Jethro_uk
2024-11-19 11:59:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
[quoted text muted]
It's not an entirely inaccurate generalisation to say Pakistanis dislike
Jews. This Pew Research survey found as many as 78% of Pakistanis
disliked Israelis.
Israelis or Jews ? I believe conflating them is anti semitic.
Roger Hayter
2024-11-19 13:03:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Pamela
[quoted text muted]
It's not an entirely inaccurate generalisation to say Pakistanis dislike
Jews. This Pew Research survey found as many as 78% of Pakistanis
disliked Israelis.
Israelis or Jews ? I believe conflating them is anti semitic.
Some Israeli propagandists work hard to convince us that *not* conflating
Israelis, Jews, and Israel's government is racist!
--
Roger Hayter
The Todal
2024-11-19 13:48:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by Pancho
Presumably it was a mistake. The tweet is clearly unjustified,
stupid, and maybe even defamatory
Defamatory to whom? Can you not criticize the Police?
The defamatory implication is that all Muslims are Anti-Semitic.
Whereas in reality, at present some Palestinians and their supporters
are Anti Israeli, or more specifically Anti-Netanyahu.
bb
It's not an entirely inaccurate generalisation to say Pakistanis dislike
Jews. This Pew Research survey found as many as 78% of Pakistanis
disliked Israelis.
<https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2010/02/04/chapter-3-views-of-religious-groups/>
"in Pakistan, a country without a Jewish community, antisemitic
sentiment fanned by antisemitic articles in the press is widespread"
https://2009-2017.state.gov/j/drl/rls/40258.htm
It would probably be an accurate generalisation to say that most of the
civilians in Gaza hate the Jews and conflate Jews with Israelis because
for them, there is no pedantic distinction to be made.

And if asked, no doubt most of the population of London during the Blitz
would say they hate the Germans, the Nazis or both.

But Allison Pearson's tweet was irresponsible and inflammatory. Apart
from simply being inaccurate about which police force and which occasion
was depicted, anyone who posts in social media saying that the police
are biased in the way they enforce public order will encourage future
riots and violence against the police.

Journalists should have a commitment to discovering the truth. Copying
and pasting inaccurate rumours in social media is unworthy of any good
journalist.
Pamela
2024-11-19 14:31:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Post by Pamela
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by Pancho
Presumably it was a mistake. The tweet is clearly unjustified,
stupid, and maybe even defamatory
Defamatory to whom? Can you not criticize the Police?
The defamatory implication is that all Muslims are Anti-Semitic.
Whereas in reality, at present some Palestinians and their
supporters are Anti Israeli, or more specifically Anti-Netanyahu.
bb
It's not an entirely inaccurate generalisation to say Pakistanis
dislike Jews. This Pew Research survey found as many as 78% of
Pakistanis disliked Israelis.
<https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2010/02/04/chapter-3-views-
of-religious-groups/>
"in Pakistan, a country without a Jewish community, antisemitic
sentiment fanned by antisemitic articles in the press is
widespread"
https://2009-2017.state.gov/j/drl/rls/40258.htm
It would probably be an accurate generalisation to say that most of
the civilians in Gaza hate the Jews and conflate Jews with Israelis
because for them, there is no pedantic distinction to be made.
And if asked, no doubt most of the population of London during the
Blitz would say they hate the Germans, the Nazis or both.
But Allison Pearson's tweet was irresponsible and inflammatory. Apart
from simply being inaccurate about which police force and which
occasion was depicted, anyone who posts in social media saying that
the police are biased in the way they enforce public order will
encourage future riots and violence against the police.
Wouldn't that have constrained observers from commenting on the
behaviour of how the police seemed particularly reluctant to investigate
Pakistani grooming gangs in Rotherham, Telford and elsewhere?

Your observation about mentioning "police bias" online does not appear
to have held back supporters of Chris Kaba (the gang member shot dead in
his car by police), who had some very choice things to say in their
social media campaign.
Post by The Todal
Journalists should have a commitment to discovering the truth. Copying
and pasting inaccurate rumours in social media is unworthy of any good
journalist.
I believe Allison Pearson is also a novelist (of weepy romances) who has
a regular column in the Telegraph. The Tweet under discussion came from
her own Twitter account, not the Telegraph's, and might be seen as
informal personal opinion rather than something journalistic.

As it happens, I hear she is known for her thorough fact checking but
that seems to have failed her here. At least she withdrew her Tweet,
which brings a new consideration: can you be charged with expressing
hate if you made it in error and swiftly recanted?
The Todal
2024-11-19 15:54:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by The Todal
Post by Pamela
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by Pancho
Presumably it was a mistake. The tweet is clearly unjustified,
stupid, and maybe even defamatory
Defamatory to whom? Can you not criticize the Police?
The defamatory implication is that all Muslims are Anti-Semitic.
Whereas in reality, at present some Palestinians and their
supporters are Anti Israeli, or more specifically Anti-Netanyahu.
bb
It's not an entirely inaccurate generalisation to say Pakistanis
dislike Jews. This Pew Research survey found as many as 78% of
Pakistanis disliked Israelis.
<https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2010/02/04/chapter-3-views-
of-religious-groups/>
"in Pakistan, a country without a Jewish community, antisemitic
sentiment fanned by antisemitic articles in the press is widespread"
https://2009-2017.state.gov/j/drl/rls/40258.htm
It would probably be an accurate generalisation to say that most of
the civilians in Gaza hate the Jews and conflate Jews with Israelis
because for them, there is no pedantic distinction to be made.
And if asked, no doubt most of the population of London during the
Blitz would say they hate the Germans, the Nazis or both.
But Allison Pearson's tweet was irresponsible and inflammatory. Apart
from simply being inaccurate about which police force and which
occasion was depicted, anyone who posts in social media saying that
the police are biased in the way they enforce public order will
encourage future riots and violence against the police.
Wouldn't that have constrained observers from commenting on the
behaviour of how the police seemed particularly reluctant to investigate
Pakistani grooming gangs in Rotherham, Telford and elsewhere?
There is a big difference between a newspaper article and a tweet.

A tweet that said "police protect paedophile Pakistanis" would be
thoroughly irresponsible and likely to incite violence. A
well-researched article exploring why the police (and social services,
just as culpable) failed to protect young girls from sexual exploitation
would be a public service. And probably too difficult for the
knuckle-draggers to read.
Post by Pamela
Your observation about mentioning "police bias" online does not appear
to have held back supporters of Chris Kaba (the gang member shot dead in
his car by police), who had some very choice things to say in their
social media campaign.
I don't think demonstrations in support of Chris Kaba or, for that
matter, Jean Charles de Menezes, were in the public interest. But
demonstrations are not the same as investigative journalism or public
inquiries.
Post by Pamela
Post by The Todal
Journalists should have a commitment to discovering the truth. Copying
and pasting inaccurate rumours in social media is unworthy of any good
journalist.
I believe Allison Pearson is also a novelist (of weepy romances) who has
a regular column in the Telegraph. The Tweet under discussion came from
her own Twitter account, not the Telegraph's, and might be seen as
informal personal opinion rather than something journalistic.
Can a journalist say that on their day off they are free to distribute
irresponsible rumours and defamatory remarks and that this should not
affect their reputation as a journalist? Maybe, but then they should not
be indignant and clutch their pearls if the police pay a visit to have a
chat.
Post by Pamela
As it happens, I hear she is known for her thorough fact checking but
that seems to have failed her here. At least she withdrew her Tweet,
which brings a new consideration: can you be charged with expressing
hate if you made it in error and swiftly recanted?
Yes we can!

https://www.cps.gov.uk/cps/news/updated-sentence-childminder-admits-inciting-racial-hatred-over-social-media-post

Whereas Bernadette Spofforth was not prosecuted, for reasons not
revealed but presumably because she did not actually express hate in her
foolish post.

She said she copied "a name and a sentence" from another post without
checking the source but had added the line "if this is true, there will
be hell to pay".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crl8nwx6ynzo
Roger Hayter
2024-11-19 15:41:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by The Todal
Post by Pamela
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by Pancho
Presumably it was a mistake. The tweet is clearly unjustified,
stupid, and maybe even defamatory
Defamatory to whom? Can you not criticize the Police?
The defamatory implication is that all Muslims are Anti-Semitic.
Whereas in reality, at present some Palestinians and their
supporters are Anti Israeli, or more specifically Anti-Netanyahu.
bb
It's not an entirely inaccurate generalisation to say Pakistanis
dislike Jews. This Pew Research survey found as many as 78% of
Pakistanis disliked Israelis.
<https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2010/02/04/chapter-3-views-of-religious-groups/>
"in Pakistan, a country without a Jewish community, antisemitic
sentiment fanned by antisemitic articles in the press is
widespread"
https://2009-2017.state.gov/j/drl/rls/40258.htm
It would probably be an accurate generalisation to say that most of
the civilians in Gaza hate the Jews and conflate Jews with Israelis
because for them, there is no pedantic distinction to be made.
And if asked, no doubt most of the population of London during the
Blitz would say they hate the Germans, the Nazis or both.
But Allison Pearson's tweet was irresponsible and inflammatory. Apart
from simply being inaccurate about which police force and which
occasion was depicted, anyone who posts in social media saying that
the police are biased in the way they enforce public order will
encourage future riots and violence against the police.
Wouldn't that have constrained observers from commenting on the
behaviour of how the police seemed particularly reluctant to investigate
Pakistani grooming gangs in Rotherham, Telford and elsewhere?
Your observation about mentioning "police bias" online does not appear
to have held back supporters of Chris Kaba (the gang member shot dead in
his car by police), who had some very choice things to say in their
social media campaign.
Post by The Todal
Journalists should have a commitment to discovering the truth. Copying
and pasting inaccurate rumours in social media is unworthy of any good
journalist.
I believe Allison Pearson is also a novelist (of weepy romances) who has
a regular column in the Telegraph. The Tweet under discussion came from
her own Twitter account, not the Telegraph's, and might be seen as
informal personal opinion rather than something journalistic.
As it happens, I hear she is known for her thorough fact checking but
that seems to have failed her here. At least she withdrew her Tweet,
which brings a new consideration: can you be charged with expressing
hate if you made it in error and swiftly recanted?
If you made it in error in the sense that you did not mean to make the point
that is its plain meaning, then you would have no criminal intent and should
not be convicted. Though that does not mean there is not a reasonable ground
for a trial to decide your intent.
If you make an illegal call for hatred and violence and withdraw it quickly
when you realise the evidence you put forward was forged, that may be
mitigation but is not a defence. It just means you are not very good at a
terror campaign, not that you did not want to contribute to one.
--
Roger Hayter
Ottavio Caruso
2024-11-19 16:06:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Presumably it was a mistake. The tweet is clearly unjustified, stupid, and maybe even
defamatory
Defamatory to whom? Can you not criticize the Police?
The defamatory implication is that all Muslims are Anti-Semitic.
Whereas in reality, at present some Palestinians and their supporters
are Anti Israeli, or more specifically Anti-Netanyahu.
bb
So, what was the offence, defamation or hate speech.

It looks like the Police make it up as they go.
--
Ottavio Caruso
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-19 17:38:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by Pancho
Presumably it was a mistake. The tweet is clearly unjustified,
stupid, and maybe even defamatory
Defamatory to whom? Can you not criticize the Police?
The defamatory implication is that all Muslims are Anti-Semitic.
Whereas in reality, at present some Palestinians and their supporters
are Anti Israeli, or more specifically Anti-Netanyahu.
So, what was the offence, defamation or hate speech.
It looks like the Police make it up as they go.
Well, *someone's* clearly making it up as they go. I'm not aware
the police have said anything about the tweet being defamatory.
They'd be unlikely to do so, as "that's a civil matter, sir".
Roger Hayter
2024-11-19 18:09:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 19 Nov 2024 at 16:06:12 GMT, "Ottavio Caruso"
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Presumably it was a mistake. The tweet is clearly unjustified, stupid, and maybe even
defamatory
Defamatory to whom? Can you not criticize the Police?
The defamatory implication is that all Muslims are Anti-Semitic.
Whereas in reality, at present some Palestinians and their supporters
are Anti Israeli, or more specifically Anti-Netanyahu.
bb
So, what was the offence, defamation or hate speech.
It looks like the Police make it up as they go.
It may well be defamation of the marchers, but more importantly it was hate
speech against the police. Perhaps it didn't quite cross the line into calling
for attacks on the police, but it was pretty close. It more or less accused
them of being anti-semites and Hamas supporters.
--
Roger Hayter
billy bookcase
2024-11-19 23:55:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
On 19 Nov 2024 at 16:06:12 GMT, "Ottavio Caruso"
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Presumably it was a mistake. The tweet is clearly unjustified, stupid, and
maybe even
defamatory
Defamatory to whom? Can you not criticize the Police?
The defamatory implication is that all Muslims are Anti-Semitic.
Whereas in reality, at present some Palestinians and their supporters
are Anti Israeli, or more specifically Anti-Netanyahu.
bb
So, what was the offence, defamation or hate speech.
It looks like the Police make it up as they go.
It may well be defamation of the marchers, but more importantly it was hate
speech against the police. Perhaps it didn't quite cross the line into calling
for attacks on the police, but it was pretty close. It more or less accused
them of being anti-semites and Hamas supporters.
But as I understand it anyway, the Public Order Act of 1986 as supplemented
by the Racial and Religious Hatred Act of 2006 only covers Racial and Religious
Hatred. Not hatred per se.

The problem then is surely, that accusing someone of being anti-semitic
is not of itself a hate crime.

It only becomes a hate crime if it's (wrongly) assumed that they are necessarily
anti - semitic because they belong to a particular racial or religious group.*

So that accusing the police of being anti-semitic, if even totally wrong
cannot be a hate crime, if its not based on the assumption that the police
only so acted because they were members of a particular racial or
religious group.

However accusing them of being anti-semitic, or of being unduly tolerant towards
of anti semites would be a grave slur on their professional reputation as
policemen. And so is highly defamatory.

The original complaint apparently was that the remark was addressed
towards people of colour, and so covered by the race category of the
1986 POA.

One problem with this might be that even knuckle draggers wouldn't normally
associate people of colour with being anti-semites. So that any such charge
would probably have little impact on knuckle draggers' existing views
of people of colour in general terms. More especially with their being
secret anti-semites themselves. And so offering no real scope for
even further hate .

Whereas if section 17 of the POA as supplemented by the religion
criterion of the RHHA is applied, then this action can be interpreted as giving
secretly anti-semitic knuckle draggers just one more excuse to point the
finger at, and foment hostility towards Muslims. Hate crime in a nutshell.

I wonder which they'll use ? If any.



bb
Pancho
2024-11-20 00:13:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
On 19 Nov 2024 at 16:06:12 GMT, "Ottavio Caruso"
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Presumably it was a mistake. The tweet is clearly unjustified, stupid, and
maybe even
defamatory
Defamatory to whom? Can you not criticize the Police?
The defamatory implication is that all Muslims are Anti-Semitic.
Whereas in reality, at present some Palestinians and their supporters
are Anti Israeli, or more specifically Anti-Netanyahu.
bb
So, what was the offence, defamation or hate speech.
It looks like the Police make it up as they go.
It may well be defamation of the marchers, but more importantly it was hate
speech against the police. Perhaps it didn't quite cross the line into calling
for attacks on the police, but it was pretty close. It more or less accused
them of being anti-semites and Hamas supporters.
I meant defamation against the Imran Khan supporters. Maybe they are Jew
haters, but it didn't seem an obvious conclusion to me, given the
information available. I'm not even sure they were Muslim.

FWIW, I don't think we should equate criticism with hatred. We should
restrict hate crime to people who are actually advocating oppressive and
in particular illegal discrimination, credible threats, not armchair
nonsense.

It should be perfectly acceptable to say we despise a religion,
ideology, professional group ,or cultural group in general as long as we
don't target random member of the group, or directly encourage others to
target them.
Ottavio Caruso
2024-11-20 15:04:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
On 19 Nov 2024 at 16:06:12 GMT, "Ottavio Caruso"
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Presumably it was a mistake. The tweet is clearly unjustified, stupid, and
maybe even
defamatory
Defamatory to whom? Can you not criticize the Police?
The defamatory implication is that all Muslims are Anti-Semitic.
Whereas in reality, at present some Palestinians and their supporters
are Anti Israeli, or more specifically Anti-Netanyahu.
bb
So, what was the offence, defamation or hate speech.
It looks like the Police make it up as they go.
It may well be defamation of the marchers, but more importantly it was hate
speech against the police. Perhaps it didn't quite cross the line into calling
for attacks on the police, but it was pretty close. It more or less accused
them of being anti-semites and Hamas supporters.
Wasn't this classes as a Non-hate crime? Or was it?
--
Ottavio Caruso
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-20 16:40:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by Roger Hayter
On 19 Nov 2024 at 16:06:12 GMT, "Ottavio Caruso"
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by Pancho
Presumably it was a mistake. The tweet is clearly unjustified,
stupid, and maybe even defamatory
Defamatory to whom? Can you not criticize the Police?
The defamatory implication is that all Muslims are Anti-Semitic.
Whereas in reality, at present some Palestinians and their supporters
are Anti Israeli, or more specifically Anti-Netanyahu.
bb
So, what was the offence, defamation or hate speech.
It looks like the Police make it up as they go.
It may well be defamation of the marchers, but more importantly it
was hate speech against the police. Perhaps it didn't quite cross the
line into calling for attacks on the police, but it was pretty close.
It more or less accused them of being anti-semites and Hamas
supporters.
Wasn't this classes as a Non-hate crime? Or was it?
It was not. Initial reports from the "journalist" involved appear
not to have been entirely accurate.
billy bookcase
2024-11-19 18:33:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ottavio Caruso
So, what was the offence, defamation or hate speech.
It looks like the Police make it up as they go.
Hate speech is a Criminal Offence resulting from The Racial
and Religious Hatred Act of 2006 ; while the former Common Law
offences of seditious libel, defamatory libel, and obscene
libel were abolished in 2010 blasphemous libel in 2008

Defamation on the other hand is a purely Civil Tort which has
nothing to do with the police but requires the aggrieved Party
to initiate proceedings themselves. And has a lower burden
of proof

So there is no reason why a particular act might not be tried
both as a Criminal Offence, and a Civil Tort.


bb
billy bookcase
2024-11-18 20:33:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Presumably it was a mistake. The tweet is clearly unjustified, stupid, and maybe even
defamatory
Defamatory to whom? Can you not criticize the Police?
The two people in the photograph standing beside the policemen
are being labelled as "Jew Haters"; on the basis of no evidence
whatsoever. (Or on the basis of their being "people of colour"
according to the original complainant) *

As I don't understand Twitter I'm not sure of the relevance of
the @ toadmester (Toby Young) (attribution?) at the bottom
of the actual tweet.

Does this mean that Pearson was simply quoting Young ?

In which case shouldn't he have been approached as well ?.

Or does the fact that Young is a well-known contrarian, whereas
Pearson is an influential mainstream journalist make a difference ?


bb


*
https://www.thenational.scot/news/24727177.allison-pearson-accused-racist-tweet-police-hate-crime-row/
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-19 09:35:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by Pancho
Presumably it was a mistake. The tweet is clearly unjustified,
stupid, and maybe even defamatory
Defamatory to whom? Can you not criticize the Police?
The two people in the photograph standing beside the policemen
are being labelled as "Jew Haters"; on the basis of no evidence
whatsoever. (Or on the basis of their being "people of colour"
according to the original complainant) *
As I don't understand Twitter I'm not sure of the relevance of
of the actual tweet.
Does this mean that Pearson was simply quoting Young ?
In which case shouldn't he have been approached as well ?.
Or does the fact that Young is a well-known contrarian, whereas
Pearson is an influential mainstream journalist make a difference ?
He didn't say it, or indeed have anything to do with it as far as
I'm aware. She was just tagging him in to the thread, presumably
because she thought he would be likely to support or amplify her
message. I've not heard any suggestion that he did so.
billy bookcase
2024-11-19 11:15:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by Pancho
Presumably it was a mistake. The tweet is clearly unjustified,
stupid, and maybe even defamatory
Defamatory to whom? Can you not criticize the Police?
The two people in the photograph standing beside the policemen
are being labelled as "Jew Haters"; on the basis of no evidence
whatsoever. (Or on the basis of their being "people of colour"
according to the original complainant) *
As I don't understand Twitter I'm not sure of the relevance of
of the actual tweet.
Does this mean that Pearson was simply quoting Young ?
In which case shouldn't he have been approached as well ?.
Or does the fact that Young is a well-known contrarian, whereas
Pearson is an influential mainstream journalist make a difference ?
He didn't say it, or indeed have anything to do with it as far as
I'm aware. She was just tagging him in to the thread, presumably
because she thought he would be likely to support or amplify her
message. I've not heard any suggestion that he did so.
Thanks. My only real contact with Twitter nowadays, or in the past,
was the photo sharing site run by Rob Baker of mainly old London photos,
Flaskbak which is general nostalgia themes and Cold War Steve; all of
which are still running. Without ever bothering with the comments.

Quite why anyone with any sort of hard earned public reputation should
further need to solicit the approval of, for all they know, a bunch of
dribbling retards, is quite beyond me.

bb


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/nov/18/allison-pearson-i-know-the-world-is-killing-you-but-where-did-it-all-go-wrong
Pamela
2024-11-19 13:12:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by Pancho
Presumably it was a mistake. The tweet is clearly unjustified,
stupid, and maybe even defamatory
Defamatory to whom? Can you not criticize the Police?
The two people in the photograph standing beside the policemen are
being labelled as "Jew Haters"; on the basis of no evidence
whatsoever. (Or on the basis of their being "people of colour"
according to the original complainant) *
toadmester (Toby Young) (attribution?) at the bottom of the actual
tweet.
Does this mean that Pearson was simply quoting Young ?
In which case shouldn't he have been approached as well ?.
Or does the fact that Young is a well-known contrarian, whereas
Pearson is an influential mainstream journalist make a difference ?
bb
*
https://www.thenational.scot/news/24727177.allison-pearson-accused-
racist-tweet-police-hate-crime-row/
Essex Police released a brief transcript of what they claim was said to
Allison Pearson during their visit.

Officer: "It's gone down as an incident or offence of potentially
inciting racial hatred online. That would be the offence."

Officer: "Because of what's been alleged and the evidence that we've
got, I need to just ask you some questions."

Officer: "It's what's been alleged and if there's an offence we need
to ask questions about, then we need to do that."

<https://www.essex.police.uk/news/essex/news/news/2024/november/update-relating-to-ongoing-investigation/>
The Todal
2024-11-19 13:51:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by Pancho
Presumably it was a mistake. The tweet is clearly unjustified,
stupid, and maybe even defamatory
Defamatory to whom? Can you not criticize the Police?
The two people in the photograph standing beside the policemen are
being labelled as "Jew Haters"; on the basis of no evidence
whatsoever. (Or on the basis of their being "people of colour"
according to the original complainant) *
toadmester (Toby Young) (attribution?) at the bottom of the actual
tweet.
Does this mean that Pearson was simply quoting Young ?
In which case shouldn't he have been approached as well ?.
Or does the fact that Young is a well-known contrarian, whereas
Pearson is an influential mainstream journalist make a difference ?
bb
*
https://www.thenational.scot/news/24727177.allison-pearson-accused-
racist-tweet-police-hate-crime-row/
Essex Police released a brief transcript of what they claim was said to
Allison Pearson during their visit.
Officer: "It's gone down as an incident or offence of potentially
inciting racial hatred online. That would be the offence."
Officer: "Because of what's been alleged and the evidence that we've
got, I need to just ask you some questions."
Officer: "It's what's been alleged and if there's an offence we need
to ask questions about, then we need to do that."
<https://www.essex.police.uk/news/essex/news/news/2024/november/update-relating-to-ongoing-investigation/>
Pearson's indignation is wholly inappropriate. I am glad that she was
visited and questioned. Her belief that you are always free to criticise
the police is as inaccurate as Boris Johnson's opinion that these
potential offences are thought-crimes not real crimes.
Roger Hayter
2024-11-19 14:04:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Post by Pamela
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by Pancho
Presumably it was a mistake. The tweet is clearly unjustified,
stupid, and maybe even defamatory
Defamatory to whom? Can you not criticize the Police?
The two people in the photograph standing beside the policemen are
being labelled as "Jew Haters"; on the basis of no evidence
whatsoever. (Or on the basis of their being "people of colour"
according to the original complainant) *
toadmester (Toby Young) (attribution?) at the bottom of the actual
tweet.
Does this mean that Pearson was simply quoting Young ?
In which case shouldn't he have been approached as well ?.
Or does the fact that Young is a well-known contrarian, whereas
Pearson is an influential mainstream journalist make a difference ?
bb
*
https://www.thenational.scot/news/24727177.allison-pearson-accused-
racist-tweet-police-hate-crime-row/
Essex Police released a brief transcript of what they claim was said to
Allison Pearson during their visit.
Officer: "It's gone down as an incident or offence of potentially
inciting racial hatred online. That would be the offence."
Officer: "Because of what's been alleged and the evidence that we've
got, I need to just ask you some questions."
Officer: "It's what's been alleged and if there's an offence we need
to ask questions about, then we need to do that."
<https://www.essex.police.uk/news/essex/news/news/2024/november/update-relating-to-ongoing-investigation/>
Pearson's indignation is wholly inappropriate. I am glad that she was
visited and questioned. Her belief that you are always free to criticise
the police is as inaccurate as Boris Johnson's opinion that these
potential offences are thought-crimes not real crimes.
And just to reiterate, this had nothing to do with non-crime hate incidents.
If she is not prosecuted she should count herself fortunate. I really don't
think that on this showing she should describe herself as a journalist though.
--
Roger Hayter
Handsome Jack
2024-11-20 08:38:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Pearson's indignation is wholly inappropriate. I am glad that she was
visited and questioned. Her belief that you are always free to criticise
the police is as inaccurate as Boris Johnson's opinion that these
potential offences are thought-crimes not real crimes.
On what occasions is one not free to criticise the police, or anyone else
for that matter?

If someone alleges that riots and violence against the police will be
encouraged by someone else alleging that the police are biased in the way
they enforce public order, is that a lawful reason for silencing the
latter?
Ottavio Caruso
2024-11-20 15:10:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by The Todal
Pearson's indignation is wholly inappropriate. I am glad that she was
visited and questioned. Her belief that you are always free to criticise
the police is as inaccurate as Boris Johnson's opinion that these
potential offences are thought-crimes not real crimes.
On what occasions is one not free to criticise the police, or anyone else
for that matter?
If someone alleges that riots and violence against the police will be
encouraged by someone else alleging that the police are biased in the way
they enforce public order, is that a lawful reason for silencing the
latter?
This. If I say "I hate obese people" will this be interpreted as
advocating widespread riots against obese people, catching them in the
streets, beating them up and killing them? Wasn't Navalny in Russia
repeatedly arrested and then convicted on similar ground?
--
Ottavio Caruso
Pamela
2024-11-20 19:01:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by The Todal
Pearson's indignation is wholly inappropriate. I am glad that she
was visited and questioned. Her belief that you are always free to
criticise the police is as inaccurate as Boris Johnson's opinion
that these potential offences are thought-crimes not real crimes.
On what occasions is one not free to criticise the police, or anyone
else for that matter?
If someone alleges that riots and violence against the police will be
encouraged by someone else alleging that the police are biased in the
way they enforce public order, is that a lawful reason for silencing
the latter?
This. If I say "I hate obese people" will this be interpreted as
advocating widespread riots against obese people, catching them in the
streets, beating them up and killing them? Wasn't Navalny in Russia
repeatedly arrested and then convicted on similar ground?
AIUI there is no crime for only hating. For an incident to be a hate crime
there has to be a crime in the first place, which then becomes a "hate
crime" if it's motivated by hatred.

See:
<https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/racist-and-religious-hate-crime-
prosecution-guidance>
Post by Ottavio Caruso
From what I understand (IANAL), the expression of hatred can also be
interpreted as harassment, verbal abuse, etc depending on the situation.
This then quickly becomes a hate crime.

I'm not sure the legislators intended this dual interpretation of a single
incident, but that seems to be how its working in practice.

I'm sure someone here will correct me, if I have misrepresented this.
Roger Hayter
2024-11-20 20:26:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by The Todal
Pearson's indignation is wholly inappropriate. I am glad that she
was visited and questioned. Her belief that you are always free to
criticise the police is as inaccurate as Boris Johnson's opinion
that these potential offences are thought-crimes not real crimes.
On what occasions is one not free to criticise the police, or anyone
else for that matter?
If someone alleges that riots and violence against the police will be
encouraged by someone else alleging that the police are biased in the
way they enforce public order, is that a lawful reason for silencing
the latter?
This. If I say "I hate obese people" will this be interpreted as
advocating widespread riots against obese people, catching them in the
streets, beating them up and killing them? Wasn't Navalny in Russia
repeatedly arrested and then convicted on similar ground?
AIUI there is no crime for only hating. For an incident to be a hate crime
there has to be a crime in the first place, which then becomes a "hate
crime" if it's motivated by hatred.
<https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/racist-and-religious-hate-crime-prosecution-guidance>
Post by Ottavio Caruso
From what I understand (IANAL), the expression of hatred can also be
interpreted as harassment, verbal abuse, etc depending on the situation.
This then quickly becomes a hate crime.
I'm not sure the legislators intended this dual interpretation of a single
incident, but that seems to be how its working in practice.
I'm pretty sure that the legislators fully intended that when a crime was
committed and it was shown to be motivated by hatred for a minority the latter
should be regarded as an aggravating factor. Indeed, that is precisely what
the legislation says.
Post by Pamela
I'm sure someone here will correct me, if I have misrepresented this.
--
Roger Hayter
Pamela
2024-11-21 22:13:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 20 Nov 2024 at 19:01:01 GMT, "Pamela"
Post by Pamela
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by The Todal
Pearson's indignation is wholly inappropriate. I am glad that she
was visited and questioned. Her belief that you are always free to
criticise the police is as inaccurate as Boris Johnson's opinion
that these potential offences are thought-crimes not real crimes.
On what occasions is one not free to criticise the police, or
anyone else for that matter?
If someone alleges that riots and violence against the police will
be encouraged by someone else alleging that the police are biased
in the way they enforce public order, is that a lawful reason for
silencing the latter?
This. If I say "I hate obese people" will this be interpreted as
advocating widespread riots against obese people, catching them in
the streets, beating them up and killing them? Wasn't Navalny in
Russia repeatedly arrested and then convicted on similar ground?
AIUI there is no crime for only hating. For an incident to be a hate
crime there has to be a crime in the first place, which then becomes
a "hate crime" if it's motivated by hatred.
<https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/racist-and-religious-
hate-crime-prosecution-guidance>
Post by Ottavio Caruso
From what I understand (IANAL), the expression of hatred can also be
interpreted as harassment, verbal abuse, etc depending on the
situation. This then quickly becomes a hate crime.
I'm not sure the legislators intended this dual interpretation of a
single incident, but that seems to be how its working in practice.
I'm pretty sure that the legislators fully intended that when a crime
was committed and it was shown to be motivated by hatred for a
minority the latter should be regarded as an aggravating factor.
Indeed, that is precisely what the legislation says.
The point I making is they would probably have expected the crime itself
be something in addition to the aggravating circumstance (the hatred).
Roger Hayter
2024-11-22 11:07:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
On 20 Nov 2024 at 19:01:01 GMT, "Pamela"
Post by Pamela
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by The Todal
Pearson's indignation is wholly inappropriate. I am glad that she
was visited and questioned. Her belief that you are always free to
criticise the police is as inaccurate as Boris Johnson's opinion
that these potential offences are thought-crimes not real crimes.
On what occasions is one not free to criticise the police, or
anyone else for that matter?
If someone alleges that riots and violence against the police will
be encouraged by someone else alleging that the police are biased
in the way they enforce public order, is that a lawful reason for
silencing the latter?
This. If I say "I hate obese people" will this be interpreted as
advocating widespread riots against obese people, catching them in
the streets, beating them up and killing them? Wasn't Navalny in
Russia repeatedly arrested and then convicted on similar ground?
AIUI there is no crime for only hating. For an incident to be a hate
crime there has to be a crime in the first place, which then becomes
a "hate crime" if it's motivated by hatred.
<https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/racist-and-religious-hate-crime-prosecution-guidance>
Post by Ottavio Caruso
From what I understand (IANAL), the expression of hatred can also be
interpreted as harassment, verbal abuse, etc depending on the
situation. This then quickly becomes a hate crime.
I'm not sure the legislators intended this dual interpretation of a
single incident, but that seems to be how its working in practice.
I'm pretty sure that the legislators fully intended that when a crime
was committed and it was shown to be motivated by hatred for a
minority the latter should be regarded as an aggravating factor.
Indeed, that is precisely what the legislation says.
The point I making is they would probably have expected the crime itself
be something in addition to the aggravating circumstance (the hatred).
They didn't "probably expect it", it is an absolute requirement.
--
Roger Hayter
The Todal
2024-11-20 19:40:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by The Todal
Pearson's indignation is wholly inappropriate. I am glad that she was
visited and questioned. Her belief that you are always free to criticise
the police is as inaccurate as Boris Johnson's opinion that these
potential offences are thought-crimes not real crimes.
On what occasions is one not free to criticise the police, or anyone else
for that matter?
If someone alleges that riots and violence against the police will be
encouraged by someone else alleging that the police are biased in the way
they enforce public order, is that a lawful reason for silencing the
latter?
This. If I say "I hate obese people" will this be interpreted as
advocating widespread riots against obese people, catching them in the
streets, beating them up and killing them? Wasn't Navalny in Russia
repeatedly arrested and then convicted on similar ground?
No, and no.

How about if someone posts "Italians are all antisemitic, they hate the
Jews. Boycott Italian restaurants!" I think that would be an incitement
to hatred and violence, but would you agree?
Pancho
2024-11-21 07:39:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by The Todal
Pearson's indignation is wholly inappropriate. I am glad that she was
visited and questioned. Her belief that you are always free to criticise
the police is as inaccurate as Boris Johnson's opinion that these
potential offences are thought-crimes not real crimes.
On what occasions is one not free to criticise the police, or anyone else
for that matter?
If someone alleges that riots and violence against the police will be
encouraged by someone else alleging that the police are biased in the way
they enforce public order, is that a lawful reason for silencing the
latter?
This. If I say "I hate obese people" will this be interpreted as
advocating widespread riots against obese people, catching them in the
streets, beating them up and killing them? Wasn't Navalny in Russia
repeatedly arrested and then convicted on similar ground?
No, and no.
How about if someone posts "Italians are all antisemitic, they hate the
Jews. Boycott Italian restaurants!"  I think that would be an incitement
to hatred and violence, but would you agree?
Grassroots action, boycotts are very important for democracy. Important
to give power to the masses. Boycotts are not hatred, and certainly not
violence.

The move to equate boycott with bigotry is an authoritarian move by
elites to protect themselves from widespread public sentiment. At a time
of rising inequality, and increasing lobby power, we really should be
doing everything we can to maximise the ability of the little man to
defend his rights.

The Zionist lobby is perhaps the most obvious, crypto lobbying and
weapons lobbying the most obviously wrong. I understand the little man
is sometimes Tommy Robinson and minorities might suffer unfairly, but on
balance it is better to allow public protest than it is to ban it.
Jethro_uk
2024-11-21 11:10:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pancho
Grassroots action, boycotts are very important for democracy. Important
to give power to the masses. Boycotts are not hatred, and certainly not
violence.
The bus companies of Montgomery didn't see it that way ...
Jethro_uk
2024-11-21 11:11:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
[quoted text muted]
No, and no.
How about if someone posts "Italians are all antisemitic, they hate the
Jews. Boycott Italian restaurants!" I think that would be an incitement
to hatred and violence, but would you agree?
Surely advertisements - which are the opposite of calls to boycott - are
similarly hate crimes then ?

I can see a muslim troublemaker claiming to be offended by the "hate" of
an advert trying to persuade them of the benefits of buying sizzling
bacon.

Your move :)
Ottavio Caruso
2024-11-21 14:13:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by Handsome Jack
Post by The Todal
Pearson's indignation is wholly inappropriate. I am glad that she was
visited and questioned. Her belief that you are always free to criticise
the police is as inaccurate as Boris Johnson's opinion that these
potential offences are thought-crimes not real crimes.
On what occasions is one not free to criticise the police, or anyone else
for that matter?
If someone alleges that riots and violence against the police will be
encouraged by someone else alleging that the police are biased in the way
they enforce public order, is that a lawful reason for silencing the
latter?
This. If I say "I hate obese people" will this be interpreted as
advocating widespread riots against obese people, catching them in the
streets, beating them up and killing them? Wasn't Navalny in Russia
repeatedly arrested and then convicted on similar ground?
No, and no.
How about if someone posts "Italians are all antisemitic, they hate the
Jews. Boycott Italian restaurants!"  I think that would be an incitement
to hatred and violence, but would you agree?
Well, no. Boycotting Italian restaurants is not a hate crime in my book.

If anything, I have boycotted Italian restaurants for the last 26 years,
as there is nothing Italian in them.

On the other hand, there were a cluster of videos on Thicktok recently
advocating killing randoms Italians as a revenge for an Italian
policeman killing an African man who was going to stab him, and the
videos are still there.
--
Ottavio Caruso
billy bookcase
2024-11-19 14:07:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Ottavio Caruso
Post by Pancho
Presumably it was a mistake. The tweet is clearly unjustified,
stupid, and maybe even defamatory
Defamatory to whom? Can you not criticize the Police?
The two people in the photograph standing beside the policemen are
being labelled as "Jew Haters"; on the basis of no evidence
whatsoever. (Or on the basis of their being "people of colour"
according to the original complainant) *
toadmester (Toby Young) (attribution?) at the bottom of the actual
tweet.
Does this mean that Pearson was simply quoting Young ?
In which case shouldn't he have been approached as well ?.
Or does the fact that Young is a well-known contrarian, whereas
Pearson is an influential mainstream journalist make a difference ?
bb
*
https://www.thenational.scot/news/24727177.allison-pearson-accused-
racist-tweet-police-hate-crime-row/
Essex Police released a brief transcript of what they claim was said to
Allison Pearson during their visit.
Officer: "It's gone down as an incident or offence of potentially
inciting racial hatred online. That would be the offence."
Officer: "Because of what's been alleged and the evidence that we've
got, I need to just ask you some questions."
Officer: "It's what's been alleged and if there's an offence we need
to ask questions about, then we need to do that."
<https://www.essex.police.uk/news/essex/news/news/2024/november/update-relating-to-ongoing-investigation/>
Indeed. But my post was in response to a pertinent observation made
by Pancho

"Pancho" <***@proton.me> wrote in message news:vhd3r8$lvfu$***@dont-email.me...quote:

quote:

Presumably it was a mistake. The tweet is clearly unjustified, stupid,
and maybe even defamatory.

unquote


So that quite possibly, there are four individuals who might have grounds
for launching an action for defamation.

More especially as the withdrawn tweet was archived, and somewhat unfortunately
has now achieved *a much wider currency*; possibly solely as a result of
someone complaining very publicly , about their treatment by the police.

Which must merit at least an 11, on the old Irony Meter


bb
Brian
2024-11-16 19:04:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Goodge
On Fri, 15 Nov 2024 14:32:54 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens
Post by Jon Ribbens
How on earth can the ‘suspect’ be questioned and offer any explanation of
their claimed action if they don’t know what it is?
If you are talking about the case involving a Telegraph columnist,
it is not about a "non-crime hate incident", it is about a potential
criminal offence of inciting racial hatred contrary to s18 of the Public
Order Act 1986.
They have not been questioned but have been invited for interview.
Presumably they would be told what tweet is being investigated
before they would be asked to put their side of the story.
And it turns out that, actually, it's a huge cock-up. The tweet that was
reported was by a different Alison Pearson. The police spoke to the wrong
one.
https://twitter.com/Towler/status/1857519783752651106
I read about this earlier this evening.

Hopefully, someone will be dismissed.
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