Landlord/Tenant meeting: is it lawful to make a private voice recording "without permission" ?

[Neddie Seagoon]

All,

I should be grateful for your thoughts on the following situation:


1 My landlord - a not-for-profit company - holds an annual meeting, as
required by the lease, to present the accounts to its tenants. Questions are
permitted.

2 In recent years, the landlord's 'record' of the meeting (the company
flatly refuses to use the word 'minutes') has become increasingly
...selective. Anything which reflects well on the landlord is included. Mild
criticisms are watered down. Direct challenges, incorrect information and our
requests for further information are simply not documented.
Long story short: no reasonably accurate record exists of what tenants are
being told at these meetings.

3 A group of us has started to make our own record of the meeting. Notes are
taken. A draft document is prepared and circulated to the tenants who attended
the meeting. Comments are incorporated and a final version published to all
tenants.

4 As a courtesy, we advised the landlord we would be doing this. The precise
words were:

"You are aware of the serious differences between the residents' records of
last year's Autumn Meeting and the record published by [the landlord]. It is
obvious that both sides need an objective and accurate record. Please be
advised that we propose to record future meetings."


5 What we *meant* to say was that we would be writing our own minutes.
However, the landlord has assumed we meant a voice recording and written to
say:

"I do not recall anyone at the last meeting requesting permission from those
present to have the meeting recorded and so I hope that it wasn’t recorded.
Had anyone made such a request I’m afraid we would not have been able to give
our consent."

6 It is my turn to minute the next annual meeting.
A major topic for the tenants will be the landlord's management of a recent,
very expensive redecoration project. We are anticipating referring the matter
to a First-tier Tribunal.
I want to ensure my record of the upcoming meeting will be as accurate as
possible. Having a recording to aid my written notes is bound to be helpful.


7 I've looked at a number of online UK legal sites regarding RIPA and GDPR.
My reading is that providing:

a) the recording is for my private use only; AND
b) I do not share the recording with anyone or publish it in any way

then it is lawful, for the purposes of para 6 above, for me to make a voice
recording of the meeting:

c) whether or not I notify any of the parties involved;
d) irrespective of one party "refusing permission" for me to do so.


Is my inference correct?

I would appreciate the group's thoughts and/or real-world suggestions.


Thanks,
Ned

[Jeff Gaines]

Post by Neddie Seagoon
7 I've looked at a number of online UK legal sites regarding RIPA and GDPR.
a) the recording is for my private use only; AND
b) I do not share the recording with anyone or publish it in any way
then it is lawful, for the purposes of para 6 above, for me to make a voice
c) whether or not I notify any of the parties involved;
d) irrespective of one party "refusing permission" for me to do so.
Is my inference correct?
I would appreciate the group's thoughts and/or real-world suggestions.

Yes recording is OK - don't ask for permission though or you'll start a
fight (and don't do it in court).

Our landlord's MD said when asked that it was "illegal" which is
incorrect, there are limitations as to what you can use it for as you have
said.

Makes me wonder if we have the same landlord, my FTT hearing is at the end
of September.

[Jethro_uk]

The SOP is to make the recording without telling anyone. Then use it to
provide written transcripts of the key discussions.

If challenged you can produce the recordings as supporting evidence. The
other party is of course free to make their recordings available to
support their position.

In all my dealings with any organisation that has become ... debated, I
have always offered to make my phone recordings available if the other
party can't. Because it's amazing how many calls that "may" be recorded
aren't when it comes to a dispute in your favour.

[Pamela]

Post by Jethro_uk
The SOP is to make the recording without telling anyone. Then use it to
provide written transcripts of the key discussions.
If challenged you can produce the recordings as supporting evidence. The
other party is of course free to make their recordings available to
support their position.

I would approach such a situation by making an audio recording with the
purpose of checking my note taking.

If it would be important not to be in the firing-line of any subsequent
recriminations, I would get an assistant accompanying me to make the
recording (on their own initiative) and subsequently declare its
existence to me and then make it available for me to check my notes. I
often do this in my doctors' consultations, although other restrictions
applying there are somewhat different compared to the OP's case.

Post by Jethro_uk
In all my dealings with any organisation that has become ... debated, I
have always offered to make my phone recordings available if the other
party can't. Because it's amazing how many calls that "may" be recorded
aren't when it comes to a dispute in your favour.

I believe such a phone recording is your personal data and should be
provided if you made a Subject Access Request, although I don't much expect
full compliance.

[Jethro_uk]

Post by Pamela
I believe such a phone recording is your personal data and should be
provided if you made a Subject Access Request, although I don't much
expect full compliance.

Never been needed. At it's mention companies always find their own.

I'm still waiting for Capita to fulfil an SAR from 10 years ago.

[Neddie Seagoon]

Post by Jethro_uk
The SOP is to make the recording without telling anyone. Then use it to
provide written transcripts of the key discussions.

All,

I apologise for not asking in my original note, but could any kind soul:

- confirm there is actual legislative wording which does say I'm
entitled to make a recording of a meeting as discussed in this thread;
- quote the relevant chapter and verse?


The reason I should have asked is that the chairman is something of a
blusterer, accustomed to barking orders ("Stop, you can't do that!").
Ignorance of a subject is rarely an obstacle for him.

If push comes to shove, I'm happy to stand up for myself. Regrettably,
however, a number of my older neighbours are overly deferential to the
chairman's bombastic approach. Being able to quote chapter and verse, if
necessary, should go a long way to reassuring them the chairman is full of
nothing more than hot air...


Thanks,
Ned

[Pamela]

Post by Neddie Seagoon

Post by Jethro_uk
The SOP is to make the recording without telling anyone. Then use it
to provide written transcripts of the key discussions.

All,
- confirm there is actual legislative wording which does say
I'm entitled to make a recording of a meeting as discussed in this
thread;
- quote the relevant chapter and verse?
The reason I should have asked is that the chairman is something of a
blusterer, accustomed to barking orders ("Stop, you can't do that!").
Ignorance of a subject is rarely an obstacle for him.
If push comes to shove, I'm happy to stand up for myself. Regrettably,
however, a number of my older neighbours are overly deferential to the
chairman's bombastic approach. Being able to quote chapter and verse,
if necessary, should go a long way to reassuring them the chairman is
full of nothing more than hot air...
Thanks,
Ned

The person who takes minutes is usually the company secretary, although
it's common enough for someone else to be appointed. The secretary reports
to the chairman.

If an alternative person is chosen by the chairman and if the chairman
forbids to give his appointee authority to make an audio recording then
that recording would be unauthorised.

However, if a member (shareholder) attending the meeting makes a recording
for his own personal use, then that would be acting independently.

[Pamela]

Post by Neddie Seagoon
All,
1 My landlord - a not-for-profit company - holds an annual meeting,
as required by the lease, to present the accounts to its tenants.
Questions are permitted.
2 In recent years, the landlord's 'record' of the meeting (the
company flatly refuses to use the word 'minutes') has become
increasingly ...selective. Anything which reflects well on the
landlord is included. Mild criticisms are watered down. Direct
challenges, incorrect information and our requests for further
information are simply not documented. Long story short: no reasonably
accurate record exists of what tenants are being told at these
meetings.

The minutes of a meeting do not have to reflect everything said. They
should, at the least, record decisions of a meeting but do not have to
detail arguments for and against.

Post by Neddie Seagoon
3 A group of us has started to make our own record of the meeting.
Notes are taken. A draft document is prepared and circulated to the
tenants who attended the meeting. Comments are incorporated and a
final version published to all tenants.
4 As a courtesy, we advised the landlord we would be doing this. The
"You are aware of the serious differences between the residents'
records of last year's Autumn Meeting and the record published by [the
landlord]. It is obvious that both sides need an objective and
accurate record. Please be advised that we propose to record future
meetings."
5 What we *meant* to say was that we would be writing our own
minutes. However, the landlord has assumed we meant a voice recording
"I do not recall anyone at the last meeting requesting permission from
those present to have the meeting recorded and so I hope that it
wasn’t recorded. Had anyone made such a request I’m afraid we
would not have been able to give our consent."
6 It is my turn to minute the next annual meeting.
A major topic for the tenants will be the landlord's management of a
recent, very expensive redecoration project. We are anticipating
referring the matter to a First-tier Tribunal.
I want to ensure my record of the upcoming meeting will be as accurate
as possible. Having a recording to aid my written notes is bound to be
helpful.
7 I've looked at a number of online UK legal sites regarding RIPA
a) the recording is for my private use only; AND

In this instance, you are not acting in a private capacity. I'm not
clear who would be the owner of the data in this meeting.

Post by Neddie Seagoon
b) I do not share the recording with anyone or publish it in any way

Had the data been for private use (which it seems it is not) I believe
the DPA/GDPR does not prevent you publishing the data, although you may
be restricted by some additional requirement such as confidentiality.

Post by Neddie Seagoon
then it is lawful, for the purposes of para 6 above, for me to make a
c) whether or not I notify any of the parties involved;
d) irrespective of one party "refusing permission" for me to do so.
Is my inference correct?
I would appreciate the group's thoughts and/or real-world suggestions.
Thanks,
Ned

[Jeff Gaines]

Post by Pamela

Post by Neddie Seagoon
2 In recent years, the landlord's 'record' of the meeting (the
company flatly refuses to use the word 'minutes') has become
increasingly ...selective. Anything which reflects well on the
landlord is included. Mild criticisms are watered down. Direct
challenges, incorrect information and our requests for further
information are simply not documented. Long story short: no reasonably
accurate record exists of what tenants are being told at these
meetings.

The minutes of a meeting do not have to reflect everything said. They
should, at the least, record decisions of a meeting but do not have to
detail arguments for and against.

My landlord has a different approach. The "notes" of the meeting reflect
what he wishes had been said. I still have the recording of a classic
meeting in 2016 where the notes state the opposite of what was agreed.

His view is they are notes, not minutes, so accuracy isn't an issue.

[Pamela]

Post by Jeff Gaines

Post by Pamela

Post by Neddie Seagoon
2 In recent years, the landlord's 'record' of the meeting (the
company flatly refuses to use the word 'minutes') has become
increasingly ...selective. Anything which reflects well on the
landlord is included. Mild criticisms are watered down. Direct
challenges, incorrect information and our requests for further
information are simply not documented. Long story short: no
reasonably accurate record exists of what tenants are being told at
these meetings.

The minutes of a meeting do not have to reflect everything said. They
should, at the least, record decisions of a meeting but do not have to
detail arguments for and against.

My landlord has a different approach. The "notes" of the meeting
reflect what he wishes had been said. I still have the recording of a
classic meeting in 2016 where the notes state the opposite of what was
agreed.
His view is they are notes, not minutes, so accuracy isn't an issue.

Misleading minutes are too common.

In theory, the subsequent meeting should vote on a motion to accept the
minutes of the previous meeting, including proposed amendments.

Members' concerns about the minutes which don't get passed as
amendments, might (or might not) get, er, recorded in the next minutes.
Hmm!

[Jeff Gaines]

Post by Pamela

Post by Jeff Gaines

Post by Pamela
The minutes of a meeting do not have to reflect everything said. They
should, at the least, record decisions of a meeting but do not have to
detail arguments for and against.

My landlord has a different approach. The "notes" of the meeting
reflect what he wishes had been said. I still have the recording of a
classic meeting in 2016 where the notes state the opposite of what was
agreed.
His view is they are notes, not minutes, so accuracy isn't an issue.

Misleading minutes are too common.
In theory, the subsequent meeting should vote on a motion to accept the
minutes of the previous meeting, including proposed amendments.

We did and we rejected them, unfortunately I don't think he knows what
that means!

[Nicholas Collin Paul de Glouceſter]

Dear Mister Neddie Seagoon,

Recordings are lawful. Cf. inter alia
HTTP://Gloucester.Insomnia247.NL/drochdhliodoiri/mun/Phortagail/Sandra_Roxo/taifead_dlithiuil.2017-06-29.htm
and
the recording of husband Robert Telles fornicating that Court TV
broadcast a few days ago (during the "INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER MURDER
TRIAL")
and
Articles 6 and 9 and 10 of a European Convention for the Protection of
Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms
and
Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Good luck.

Thy Å¿incerely,
Nicholas Collin Paul de Glouceſter

[Nicholas Collin Paul de Glouceſter]

Another precedent confirming that it is legal to record is reported by
HTTPS://WWW.EqualityNI.org/ECNI/media/ECNI/Publications/Delivering%20Equality/Decisions%20and%20Settlements%20Reviews/LegalServicesReview2020-21.pdf
which says:
"£5,000 compensation in a race discrimination case taken by two Irish
Traveller men (£2.5k each) who were refused service in a bar. They had
mobile phone video footage of the barmaid refusing service to ‘you
people’."

I thank Emma-Rose Rooney and MMW Legal Ltd aka Millar McCall Wylie (
HTTPS://MMWLegal.com/our-people/emma-rooney
) for bringing this example to my attention.

"Emma is qualified to practise as a Solicitor in the jurisdictions of
Northern Ireland and England and Wales"
says
HTTPS://MMWLegal.com/our-people/emma-rooney

[Fredxx]

On 12/08/2024 11:45, Neddie Seagoon wrote:

<snip>

Post by Neddie Seagoon
7 I've looked at a number of online UK legal sites regarding RIPA and GDPR.
a) the recording is for my private use only; AND
b) I do not share the recording with anyone or publish it in any way
then it is lawful, for the purposes of para 6 above, for me to make a voice
c) whether or not I notify any of the parties involved;
d) irrespective of one party "refusing permission" for me to do so.
Is my inference correct?

Largely, yes. I have yet to see any legal argument against the making of
a audio recording for such purposes.

In fact it was only made illegal recently where material is
intentionally published for the purpose of shaming an individual,
normally a sex act.

I would also use "Whisper" transcription software to convert that to
text, although installation is perhaps a little fraught and non-trivial
for some.