Discussion:
Refusing cash - equality act ?
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Jethro_uk
2025-01-04 15:09:40 UTC
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Permalink
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/britannia-
hotel-manchester-tourist-tax-30703737

TL;DR a disabled lady couldn't pay £1.20 by cash as the hotel only
accepted card and bad things ensued.

With the understanding that generally no one cares about the rights of
the disabled (res iposo loquitor and all that) then could a businesses
decision on payment methods be considered contrary to the equality act ?

Would the reverse situation of only accepting cash and refusing card
payments be similarly viewed ?

(If I had been confronted with this situation then my solution would be
to quietly pay the £1.20 using my own card and take the £1.20 cash
leaving no one out of pocket or outside at all, plus no bad publicity.
However that would probably be affected in great part by how good the
employer was.)
LionelEdwards
2025-01-04 17:56:03 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/britannia-
hotel-manchester-tourist-tax-30703737
TL;DR a disabled lady couldn't pay £1.20 by cash as the hotel only
accepted card and bad things ensued.
With the understanding that generally no one cares about the rights of
the disabled (res iposo loquitor and all that) then could a businesses
decision on payment methods be considered contrary to the equality act ?
Would the reverse situation of only accepting cash and refusing card
payments be similarly viewed ?
(If I had been confronted with this situation then my solution would be
to quietly pay the £1.20 using my own card and take the £1.20 cash
leaving no one out of pocket or outside at all, plus no bad publicity.
However that would probably be affected in great part by how good the
employer was.)
Your link doesn't work for me. If you have offered full
payment in legal tender then you have fulfilled your side of
the contract.
Jon Ribbens
2025-01-04 18:30:09 UTC
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Post by LionelEdwards
Post by Jethro_uk
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/britannia-
hotel-manchester-tourist-tax-30703737
TL;DR a disabled lady couldn't pay £1.20 by cash as the hotel only
accepted card and bad things ensued.
With the understanding that generally no one cares about the rights of
the disabled (res iposo loquitor and all that) then could a businesses
decision on payment methods be considered contrary to the equality act ?
Would the reverse situation of only accepting cash and refusing card
payments be similarly viewed ?
(If I had been confronted with this situation then my solution would be
to quietly pay the £1.20 using my own card and take the £1.20 cash
leaving no one out of pocket or outside at all, plus no bad publicity.
However that would probably be affected in great part by how good the
employer was.)
Your link doesn't work for me.
It does work, you just need to put the "hotel-..." bit after the
".../britannia-" bit.
Post by LionelEdwards
If you have offered full payment in legal tender then you have
fulfilled your side of the contract.
According to the article, she offered £1.50, so technically she
didn't offer the right amount in legal tender. Not that "legal
tender" means anything.

I think an argument could be made that what the hotel did was
indirect discrimination. Plus it might well have been simple
breach of contract since she had paid in full in advance.

The hotel name rings a bell though... it was in the news because
the Britannia chain has been ranked "worst hotel chain in the UK"
every year for over a decade by "Which?".
Mark Goodge
2025-01-04 21:15:40 UTC
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On Sat, 4 Jan 2025 18:30:09 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens
Post by Jon Ribbens
The hotel name rings a bell though... it was in the news because
the Britannia chain has been ranked "worst hotel chain in the UK"
every year for over a decade by "Which?".
Yes.

I was trying to be positive when I wrote this.

https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowUserReviews-g187069-d191562-r317593978-Britannia_Manchester_Hotel-Manchester_Greater_Manchester_England.html
or https://tinyurl.com/mv2nccfy

Mark
GB
2025-01-05 16:03:46 UTC
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Post by Mark Goodge
On Sat, 4 Jan 2025 18:30:09 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens
Post by Jon Ribbens
The hotel name rings a bell though... it was in the news because
the Britannia chain has been ranked "worst hotel chain in the UK"
every year for over a decade by "Which?".
Yes.
I was trying to be positive when I wrote this.
https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowUserReviews-g187069-d191562-r317593978-Britannia_Manchester_Hotel-Manchester_Greater_Manchester_England.html
or https://tinyurl.com/mv2nccfy
Mark
It's saving grace is that it appears to be startlingly cheap! As low as
£20 pp for two sharing. I don't think you can expect much for that
price. Maybe, they should charge more and do a better job?
Mark Goodge
2025-01-05 20:48:28 UTC
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Post by GB
Post by Mark Goodge
On Sat, 4 Jan 2025 18:30:09 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens
Post by Jon Ribbens
The hotel name rings a bell though... it was in the news because
the Britannia chain has been ranked "worst hotel chain in the UK"
every year for over a decade by "Which?".
Yes.
I was trying to be positive when I wrote this.
https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowUserReviews-g187069-d191562-r317593978-Britannia_Manchester_Hotel-Manchester_Greater_Manchester_England.html
or https://tinyurl.com/mv2nccfy
It's saving grace is that it appears to be startlingly cheap! As low as
£20 pp for two sharing. I don't think you can expect much for that
price. Maybe, they should charge more and do a better job?
I suppose that's a good question. There clearly is a market for budget
accommodation. EasyHotel, for example, is currently starting at £18 a night
in Newcastle. And I've stayed in a HotelF1 in France, which currently has
prices starting at £30 per night. But the problem with Britannia, I think is
that they're bad even for cheap. EasyHotel doesn't exactly get rave reviews,
but you do at least know exactly what you're getting when you book and you
do get what you expect - it's cheap and cheerful, no frills but perfectly
functional if your requirements aren't onerous. But whatever your
expectations, Britannia hotels consistently fail to meet them.

Mark
Roland Perry
2025-01-06 09:51:57 UTC
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Post by GB
Post by Mark Goodge
On Sat, 4 Jan 2025 18:30:09 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens
Post by Jon Ribbens
The hotel name rings a bell though... it was in the news because
the Britannia chain has been ranked "worst hotel chain in the UK"
every year for over a decade by "Which?".
Yes.
I was trying to be positive when I wrote this.
https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowUserReviews-g187069-d191562-r31759397
8-Britannia_Manchester_Hotel-Manchester_Greater_Manchester_England.html
or https://tinyurl.com/mv2nccfy
It's saving grace is that it appears to be startlingly cheap! As low
as £20 pp for two sharing. I don't think you can expect much for that
price. Maybe, they should charge more and do a better job?
"Doing a better job" includes things like refurbishing bathrooms, which
isn't a trivial exercise. Disclaimer: I stayed in two Britannia Hotels
last year, they were both very cheap, and no worse than I expected.
--
Roland Perry
Adam Funk
2025-01-07 11:59:24 UTC
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Post by Mark Goodge
On Sat, 4 Jan 2025 18:30:09 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens
Post by Jon Ribbens
The hotel name rings a bell though... it was in the news because
the Britannia chain has been ranked "worst hotel chain in the UK"
every year for over a decade by "Which?".
Yes.
I was trying to be positive when I wrote this.
https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowUserReviews-g187069-d191562-r317593978-Britannia_Manchester_Hotel-Manchester_Greater_Manchester_England.html
or https://tinyurl.com/mv2nccfy
Going off topic a bit ... your comment about inadequate lighting in
the room is one of my big pet peeves about many hotels, including
otherwise very nice ones --- is it really that farfetched that some
guests might want to read?!?
Robert
2025-01-07 19:02:52 UTC
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Post by Adam Funk
Post by Mark Goodge
On Sat, 4 Jan 2025 18:30:09 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens
Post by Jon Ribbens
The hotel name rings a bell though... it was in the news because
the Britannia chain has been ranked "worst hotel chain in the UK"
every year for over a decade by "Which?".
Yes.
I was trying to be positive when I wrote this.
https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowUserReviews-g187069-d191562-r317593978-Britannia_Manchester_Hotel-Manchester_Greater_Manchester_England.html
or https://tinyurl.com/mv2nccfy
Going off topic a bit ... your comment about inadequate lighting in
the room is one of my big pet peeves about many hotels, including
otherwise very nice ones --- is it really that farfetched that some
guests might want to read?!?
+1 An eReader with backlight is essential, or a supply of higher power
bulbs.
Peter Walker
2025-01-05 09:45:51 UTC
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Post by Jon Ribbens
I think an argument could be made that what the hotel did was
indirect discrimination. Plus it might well have been simple
breach of contract since she had paid in full in advance.
Quite, I would expect the price of a consumer contract to be stated in
full, inclusive of all taxes at the time/point of purchase.
SH
2025-01-05 09:47:23 UTC
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Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by LionelEdwards
Post by Jethro_uk
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/britannia-
hotel-manchester-tourist-tax-30703737
TL;DR a disabled lady couldn't pay £1.20 by cash as the hotel only
accepted card and bad things ensued.
With the understanding that generally no one cares about the rights of
the disabled (res iposo loquitor and all that) then could a businesses
decision on payment methods be considered contrary to the equality act ?
Would the reverse situation of only accepting cash and refusing card
payments be similarly viewed ?
(If I had been confronted with this situation then my solution would be
to quietly pay the £1.20 using my own card and take the £1.20 cash
leaving no one out of pocket or outside at all, plus no bad publicity.
However that would probably be affected in great part by how good the
employer was.)
Your link doesn't work for me.
It does work, you just need to put the "hotel-..." bit after the
".../britannia-" bit.
Post by LionelEdwards
If you have offered full payment in legal tender then you have
fulfilled your side of the contract.
According to the article, she offered £1.50, so technically she
didn't offer the right amount in legal tender. Not that "legal
tender" means anything.
I think an argument could be made that what the hotel did was
indirect discrimination. Plus it might well have been simple
breach of contract since she had paid in full in advance.
The hotel name rings a bell though... it was in the news because
the Britannia chain has been ranked "worst hotel chain in the UK"
every year for over a decade by "Which?".
you are correct!

https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/www.britanniahotels.com?page=4
Jeff Gaines
2025-01-04 20:14:42 UTC
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On 04/01/2025 in message
Post by LionelEdwards
Post by Jethro_uk
(If I had been confronted with this situation then my solution would be
to quietly pay the £1.20 using my own card and take the £1.20 cash
leaving no one out of pocket or outside at all, plus no bad publicity.
However that would probably be affected in great part by how good the
employer was.)
Your link doesn't work for me. If you have offered full
payment in legal tender then you have fulfilled your side of
the contract.
That is only true when tendering payment for a debt otherwise meaningless.
--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
I can please only one person per day. Today is not your day.
Tomorrow, isn't looking good either.
GB
2025-01-05 14:58:48 UTC
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Post by LionelEdwards
Post by Jethro_uk
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/britannia-
hotel-manchester-tourist-tax-30703737
TL;DR a disabled lady couldn't pay £1.20 by cash as the hotel only
accepted card and bad things ensued.
With the understanding that generally no one cares about the rights of
the disabled (res iposo loquitor and all that) then could a businesses
decision on payment methods be considered contrary to the equality act ?
Would the reverse situation of only accepting cash and refusing card
payments be similarly viewed ?
(If I had been confronted with this situation then my solution would be
to quietly pay the £1.20 using my own card and take the £1.20 cash
leaving no one out of pocket or outside at all, plus no bad publicity.
However that would probably be affected in great part by how good the
employer was.)
Your link doesn't work for me. If you have offered full
payment in legal tender then you have fulfilled your side of
the contract.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/britannia-hotel-manchester-tourist-tax-30703737

Hopefully, that link works okay.

I agree with Jon that this looks like discrimination. It's certainly
incredibly stupid of the hotel.
Spike
2025-01-04 22:06:31 UTC
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Post by Jethro_uk
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/britannia-
hotel-manchester-tourist-tax-30703737
It can help to avoid broken urls such as the one above by placing them
between < and > characters, like this:

<https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/britannia-hotel-manchester-tourist-tax-30703737>
--
Spike
Ian Jackson
2025-01-05 16:50:51 UTC
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Post by Spike
Post by Jethro_uk
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/britannia-
hotel-manchester-tourist-tax-30703737
It can help to avoid broken urls such as the one above by placing them
<https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/britanni
a-hotel-manchester-tourist-tax-30703737>
I believe it also requires a Return after the end >
--
Ian
Aims and ambitions are neither attainments nor achievements
David
2025-01-07 14:00:29 UTC
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Post by Jethro_uk
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/britannia-
hotel-manchester-tourist-tax-30703737
TL;DR a disabled lady couldn't pay £1.20 by cash as the hotel only
accepted card and bad things ensued.
With the understanding that generally no one cares about the rights of
the disabled (res iposo loquitor and all that) then could a businesses
decision on payment methods be considered contrary to the equality act ?
Would the reverse situation of only accepting cash and refusing card
payments be similarly viewed ?
(If I had been confronted with this situation then my solution would be
to quietly pay the £1.20 using my own card and take the £1.20 cash
leaving no one out of pocket or outside at all, plus no bad publicity.
However that would probably be affected in great part by how good the
employer was.)
Does not the Equality Act have a get out clause for "reasonable" or
similar?
A lot of places went contactless only during Covid to reduce the risk of
transmission (allegedly).
In this case, would a contactless only policy be regarded as a reasonable
accommodation to the risk of transmission of a serious disease?

Cheers



Dave R
--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 10 x64
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com
Mark Goodge
2025-01-07 18:49:29 UTC
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On Sat, 4 Jan 2025 15:09:40 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
Post by Jethro_uk
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/britannia-
hotel-manchester-tourist-tax-30703737
Since most people have gone off on a tangent about the broken URL, I thought
it might be worth trying to address the actual point :-)
Post by Jethro_uk
TL;DR a disabled lady couldn't pay £1.20 by cash as the hotel only
accepted card and bad things ensued.
With the understanding that generally no one cares about the rights of
the disabled (res iposo loquitor and all that) then could a businesses
decision on payment methods be considered contrary to the equality act ?
Would the reverse situation of only accepting cash and refusing card
payments be similarly viewed ?
For it to be discriminatory, you'd probably need to show that disabled
people are disproportionately likely to not have cards (or not have cash).
The fact that this particular person preferred not to use cards due to a
particular disability isn't directly relevant; there may well be other
disabled people who, for similar reasons, prefer not to use cash.

More generally, businesses are increasingly going card-only, so if it was a
breach of the Equality Act then I think we'd have already seen the court
cases. But I'm not aware of any.

Whether it was poor customer service is, I think, more questionable,
although I note that some of the comments below the article suggest that it
hasn't been accurately reported. Certainly, I find it a little implausible
that the staff were responsible for the customer giving up after trying just
one card and finding that required a PIN, especially since the situation was
eventually resolved when she tried a different card and that worked fine. Of
course, her decision to initially abandon the transaction when one of her
cards required a PIN she couldn't remember may well be related to the
anxiety issues that are part of her disability, but it's hard to see how the
staff could have prevented that. Maybe someone experienced in dealing with
panic attacks might have been able to help, but it's unrealistic to expect
hotel receptionists to routinely be trained to that level.

Also, difficulty remembering PINs isn't particularly uncommon, but there are
a number of strategies for mitigating that issue, including, if necessary,
writing them down, or letting a trusted friend know them (or, at least, know
one particular key PIN) who can then remind you if necessary. Or use Apple
Pay/Google Pay on a phone and unlock it using biometrics. There may, of
course, be many reasons why some people are uncomfortable with one or more
of those, but simply saying "I don't use cards because I can't remember
PINs" is probably getting close to being untenable for anyone of otherwise
normal mental acuity.

What I do think is unreasonable, and is definitely the fault of the hotel
(or, possibly, the Manchester Accommodation BID) is making the tourist tax a
separate item which has to be paid on check-in rather than as part of the
up-front payment made when booking the room. I haven't stayed in a hotel in
Manchester since the charge was introduced, but I am expecting to later this
year, so I'll see if I get asked for it up-front or have to pay it on
check-in as well. But even if that is a decision by the hotel operator it's
not something that the staff on duty have any control over, so it's
unreasonable to blame them for any issues encountered in paying it.

Mark
kat
2025-01-08 10:52:14 UTC
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Post by Mark Goodge
What I do think is unreasonable, and is definitely the fault of the hotel
(or, possibly, the Manchester Accommodation BID) is making the tourist tax a
separate item which has to be paid on check-in rather than as part of the
up-front payment made when booking the room. I haven't stayed in a hotel in
Manchester since the charge was introduced, but I am expecting to later this
year, so I'll see if I get asked for it up-front or have to pay it on
check-in as well. But even if that is a decision by the hotel operator it's
not something that the staff on duty have any control over, so it's
unreasonable to blame them for any issues encountered in paying it.
As I recall, we went on holiday to Majorca last year, and had to pay tourist tax
when checking in. While Spanish rules wouldn't apply in Manchester, maybe there
is a reason that hotels find it a better way to collect the charge?
--
kat
Post by Mark Goodge
^..^<
Roland Perry
2025-01-08 11:12:30 UTC
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Post by kat
As I recall, we went on holiday to Majorca last year, and had to pay
tourist tax when checking in. While Spanish rules wouldn't apply in
Manchester, maybe there is a reason that hotels find it a better way to
collect the charge?
I remember paying it when checking *out* of a hotel in Amsterdam.
--
Roland Perry
Serena Blanchflower
2025-01-08 11:32:03 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Mark Goodge
Also, difficulty remembering PINs isn't particularly uncommon, but there are
a number of strategies for mitigating that issue, including, if necessary,
writing them down, or letting a trusted friend know them (or, at least, know
one particular key PIN) who can then remind you if necessary. Or use Apple
Pay/Google Pay on a phone and unlock it using biometrics. There may, of
course, be many reasons why some people are uncomfortable with one or more
of those, but simply saying "I don't use cards because I can't remember
PINs" is probably getting close to being untenable for anyone of otherwise
normal mental acuity.
It's also entirely possible for anyone who will have difficulty
remembering their PIN, due to disability, to be issued a chip and
signature card instead. I've had one since PINs were introduced, as I
reckoned the chances of remembering one were somewhere between slim and
non-existent.
--
Best wishes, Serena
Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine.
Roland Perry
2025-01-08 11:55:00 UTC
Reply
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Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by Mark Goodge
Also, difficulty remembering PINs isn't particularly uncommon, but there are
a number of strategies for mitigating that issue, including, if necessary,
writing them down, or letting a trusted friend know them (or, at least, know
one particular key PIN) who can then remind you if necessary. Or use Apple
Pay/Google Pay on a phone and unlock it using biometrics. There may, of
course, be many reasons why some people are uncomfortable with one or more
of those, but simply saying "I don't use cards because I can't remember
PINs" is probably getting close to being untenable for anyone of otherwise
normal mental acuity.
It's also entirely possible for anyone who will have difficulty
remembering their PIN, due to disability, to be issued a chip and
signature card instead. I've had one since PINs were introduced, as I
reckoned the chances of remembering one were somewhere between slim and
non-existent.
There was a lady at the next table to me at lunch yesterday, who had
Parkinsons or something similar. She was trying to use a mobile phone
but it seemed to me a miracle she could keep hold of it, let alone
press any specific buttons.
--
Roland Perry
Spike
2025-01-08 12:22:50 UTC
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Roland Perry <***@perry.uk> wrote:

[…]
Post by Roland Perry
There was a lady at the next table to me at lunch yesterday, who had
Parkinsons or something similar. She was trying to use a mobile phone
but it seemed to me a miracle she could keep hold of it, let alone
press any specific buttons.
Presumably she could just say “Hey, Siri, phone my
son/husband/partner/carer/knackersyard (or whatever)”?
--
Spike
Roland Perry
2025-01-08 14:15:17 UTC
Reply
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Post by Spike
Post by Roland Perry
There was a lady at the next table to me at lunch yesterday, who had
Parkinsons or something similar. She was trying to use a mobile phone
but it seemed to me a miracle she could keep hold of it, let alone
press any specific buttons.
Presumably she could just say “Hey, Siri, phone my
son/husband/partner/carer/knackersyard (or whatever)”?
Is it possible to say to Siri/Alexa "authorise this credit card
transaction", without also logging oneself into the phone?
--
Roland Perry
Jethro_uk
2025-01-08 17:50:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Spike
Post by Roland Perry
There was a lady at the next table to me at lunch yesterday, who had
Parkinsons or something similar. She was trying to use a mobile phone
but it seemed to me a miracle she could keep hold of it, let alone
press any specific buttons.
Presumably she could just say “Hey, Siri, phone my
son/husband/partner/carer/knackersyard (or whatever)”?
Is it possible to say to Siri/Alexa "authorise this credit card
transaction", without also logging oneself into the phone?
If it is it would be the rare example of "AI" actually being useful.

Which means I bet it isn't.
Spike
2025-01-09 09:31:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Spike
Post by Roland Perry
There was a lady at the next table to me at lunch yesterday, who had
Parkinsons or something similar. She was trying to use a mobile phone
but it seemed to me a miracle she could keep hold of it, let alone
press any specific buttons.
Presumably she could just say “Hey, Siri, phone my
son/husband/partner/carer/knackersyard (or whatever)”?
Is it possible to say to Siri/Alexa "authorise this credit card
transaction", without also logging oneself into the phone?
I wouldn’t know whether Siri/Alexa can authorise cards, as I have those
functions well and truly turned off. However, people using smartphones with
‘wallets’ (or whatever they are called) just seem to wave the phone over
the reader; presumably the lady in your story could do the same.
--
Spike
Jethro_uk
2025-01-09 11:41:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Spike
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Spike
Post by Roland Perry
There was a lady at the next table to me at lunch yesterday, who had
Parkinsons or something similar. She was trying to use a mobile phone
but it seemed to me a miracle she could keep hold of it, let alone
press any specific buttons.
Presumably she could just say “Hey, Siri, phone my
son/husband/partner/carer/knackersyard (or whatever)”?
Is it possible to say to Siri/Alexa "authorise this credit card
transaction", without also logging oneself into the phone?
I wouldn’t know whether Siri/Alexa can authorise cards, as I have those
functions well and truly turned off. However, people using smartphones
with ‘wallets’ (or whatever they are called) just seem to wave the phone
over the reader; presumably the lady in your story could do the same.
Occasionally GooglePay (which is the intermediary) will grumble and you
will need to use a PIN or biometrics to complete the transaction. Whether
this is a function of GP or the linked card provider I am not sure.
Roland Perry
2025-01-09 12:09:43 UTC
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Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Spike
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Spike
Post by Roland Perry
There was a lady at the next table to me at lunch yesterday, who had
Parkinsons or something similar. She was trying to use a mobile phone
but it seemed to me a miracle she could keep hold of it, let alone
press any specific buttons.
Presumably she could just say “Hey, Siri, phone my
son/husband/partner/carer/knackersyard (or whatever)”?
Is it possible to say to Siri/Alexa "authorise this credit card
transaction", without also logging oneself into the phone?
I wouldn’t know whether Siri/Alexa can authorise cards, as I have those
functions well and truly turned off. However, people using smartphones
with ‘wallets’ (or whatever they are called) just seem to wave the phone
over the reader; presumably the lady in your story could do the same.
Occasionally GooglePay (which is the intermediary) will grumble and you
will need to use a PIN or biometrics to complete the transaction.
That might not help the disabled user who has very great difficulty
doing either.
Post by Jethro_uk
Whether
this is a function of GP or the linked card provider I am not sure.
--
Roland Perry
Jethro_uk
2025-01-09 14:18:31 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Spike
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Spike
Post by Roland Perry
There was a lady at the next table to me at lunch yesterday, who
had Parkinsons or something similar. She was trying to use a mobile
phone but it seemed to me a miracle she could keep hold of it, let
alone press any specific buttons.
Presumably she could just say “Hey, Siri, phone my
son/husband/partner/carer/knackersyard (or whatever)”?
Is it possible to say to Siri/Alexa "authorise this credit card
transaction", without also logging oneself into the phone?
I wouldn’t know whether Siri/Alexa can authorise cards, as I have
those functions well and truly turned off. However, people using
smartphones with ‘wallets’ (or whatever they are called) just seem to
wave the phone over the reader; presumably the lady in your story
could do the same.
Occasionally GooglePay (which is the intermediary) will grumble and you
will need to use a PIN or biometrics to complete the transaction.
That might not help the disabled user who has very great difficulty
doing either.
SWMBO has fucked eyes and co-ordination and is my general test for issues
of accessibility (or otherwise). It's a rare day I don't need to help her
complete a phone-tap transaction. Since the majority of stores either put
the card reader out of reach and fixed so cannot be moved to wheelchair
height. Apparently this is OK though, as some staff wear lanyards so they
are totally "all over this accessibility thing" as I was told.
GB
2025-01-09 18:14:17 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Jethro_uk
Occasionally GooglePay (which is the intermediary) will grumble and you
will need to use a PIN or biometrics to complete the transaction.
That might not help the disabled user who has very great difficulty
doing either.
There's no question that the lady in the newspaper needs a bit of help
with tech, and this would solve a few problems for her.

She should have a smart phone with a fingerprint reader, and her cards
need to be put on GooglePay. Then, she can just tap to pay, and she may
need to authorise the transaction with her fingerprint.

Maybe, the nail bars that do fancy nails should do one that says "use
this finger to authenticate transactions on your phone"?
kat
2025-01-10 10:30:28 UTC
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Post by Jethro_uk
Occasionally GooglePay (which is the intermediary) will grumble and you
will need to use a PIN or biometrics to complete the transaction.
That might not help the disabled user who has very great difficulty doing either.
There's no question that the lady in the newspaper needs a bit of help with
tech, and this would solve a few problems for her.
She should have a smart phone with a fingerprint reader, and her cards need to
be put on GooglePay. Then, she can just tap to pay, and she may need to
authorise the transaction with her fingerprint.
Maybe, the nail bars that do fancy nails should do one that says "use this
finger to authenticate transactions on your phone"?
Sounds so simple, doesn't it. But a sometimes my phone doesn't recognise my
finger! It has to sit exactly right, and while I know and just try until it
works, I can imagine that for some people in a situation where they might be
stressed, that could be difficult.
--
kat
^..^<
Roger Hayter
2025-01-10 12:29:54 UTC
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Post by kat
Post by Jethro_uk
Occasionally GooglePay (which is the intermediary) will grumble and you
will need to use a PIN or biometrics to complete the transaction.
That might not help the disabled user who has very great difficulty doing either.
There's no question that the lady in the newspaper needs a bit of help with
tech, and this would solve a few problems for her.
She should have a smart phone with a fingerprint reader, and her cards need to
be put on GooglePay. Then, she can just tap to pay, and she may need to
authorise the transaction with her fingerprint.
Maybe, the nail bars that do fancy nails should do one that says "use this
finger to authenticate transactions on your phone"?
Sounds so simple, doesn't it. But a sometimes my phone doesn't recognise my
finger! It has to sit exactly right, and while I know and just try until it
works, I can imagine that for some people in a situation where they might be
stressed, that could be difficult.
There's always facial recognition - although that rarely seems to work for me.
--
Roger Hayter
kat
2025-01-10 12:43:32 UTC
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Post by Roger Hayter
Post by kat
Post by Jethro_uk
Occasionally GooglePay (which is the intermediary) will grumble and you
will need to use a PIN or biometrics to complete the transaction.
That might not help the disabled user who has very great difficulty doing either.
There's no question that the lady in the newspaper needs a bit of help with
tech, and this would solve a few problems for her.
She should have a smart phone with a fingerprint reader, and her cards need to
be put on GooglePay. Then, she can just tap to pay, and she may need to
authorise the transaction with her fingerprint.
Maybe, the nail bars that do fancy nails should do one that says "use this
finger to authenticate transactions on your phone"?
Sounds so simple, doesn't it. But a sometimes my phone doesn't recognise my
finger! It has to sit exactly right, and while I know and just try until it
works, I can imagine that for some people in a situation where they might be
stressed, that could be difficult.
There's always facial recognition - although that rarely seems to work for me.
Or for me. Yet it works for my husband - except that his phone has also
"recoognised" one of our daughters. i don't trust it!
--
kat
Post by Roger Hayter
^..^<
GB
2025-01-10 13:46:34 UTC
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Permalink
Sounds so simple, doesn't it.  But a sometimes my phone doesn't
recognise my finger! It has to sit exactly right, and while I know and
just try until it works, I can imagine that for some people in a
situation where they might be stressed, that could be difficult.
I had this problem with my phone, but fortunately it went away after I
retrained the fingerprint profile it held. (I can't remember exactly how
I did that, but I probably just told it to delete the fingerprint it
held, and then I took more care recording the new one.)
Roland Perry
2025-01-10 17:56:37 UTC
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Permalink
Post by GB
Sounds so simple, doesn't it.  But a sometimes my phone doesn't
recognise my finger! It has to sit exactly right, and while I know and
just try until it works, I can imagine that for some people in a
situation where they might be stressed, that could be difficult.
I had this problem with my phone, but fortunately it went away after I
retrained the fingerprint profile it held. (I can't remember exactly
how I did that, but I probably just told it to delete the fingerprint
it held, and then I took more care recording the new one.)
And how does one do that if afflicted with a medical condition which
presents as severe tremors?
--
Roland Perry
Jethro_uk
2025-01-10 18:09:13 UTC
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by GB
Sounds so simple, doesn't it.  But a sometimes my phone doesn't
recognise my finger! It has to sit exactly right, and while I know and
just try until it works, I can imagine that for some people in a
situation where they might be stressed, that could be difficult.
I had this problem with my phone, but fortunately it went away after I
retrained the fingerprint profile it held. (I can't remember exactly how
I did that, but I probably just told it to delete the fingerprint it
held, and then I took more care recording the new one.)
And how does one do that if afflicted with a medical condition which
presents as severe tremors?
Sometimes, sadly, you have to give up.
Mark Goodge
2025-01-10 20:14:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by GB
Sounds so simple, doesn't it.  But a sometimes my phone doesn't
recognise my finger! It has to sit exactly right, and while I know and
just try until it works, I can imagine that for some people in a
situation where they might be stressed, that could be difficult.
I had this problem with my phone, but fortunately it went away after I
retrained the fingerprint profile it held. (I can't remember exactly
how I did that, but I probably just told it to delete the fingerprint
it held, and then I took more care recording the new one.)
And how does one do that if afflicted with a medical condition which
presents as severe tremors?
Then use a PIN.

This is only a problem if you have both an inability to remember PINs and a
physical inability to use biometrics. I'm sure that such people do exist
(but then, maybe chip and signature is the solution for them).

Bear in mind that we're taking here about the scenario in the original post,
about someone who preferred not to use cards because of her difficulty
remembering PINs. The point is that there are other options if that's a
problem. And there are enough different options that the probability of
someone being unable to use any of them, while still being able to otherwise
live an independent life (ie, to not require being accompanied when out and
about) is very low.

Mark
Roland Perry
2025-01-11 09:19:59 UTC
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Post by Mark Goodge
Post by Roland Perry
Post by GB
Sounds so simple, doesn't it.  But a sometimes my phone doesn't
recognise my finger! It has to sit exactly right, and while I know and
just try until it works, I can imagine that for some people in a
situation where they might be stressed, that could be difficult.
I had this problem with my phone, but fortunately it went away after I
retrained the fingerprint profile it held. (I can't remember exactly
how I did that, but I probably just told it to delete the fingerprint
it held, and then I took more care recording the new one.)
And how does one do that if afflicted with a medical condition which
presents as severe tremors?
Then use a PIN.
Which requires pressing buttons!
Post by Mark Goodge
This is only a problem if you have both an inability to remember PINs and a
physical inability to use biometrics. I'm sure that such people do exist
(but then, maybe chip and signature is the solution for them).
What would a signature from someone with severe tremors look like?
Post by Mark Goodge
Bear in mind that we're taking here about the scenario in the original post,
about someone who preferred not to use cards because of her difficulty
remembering PINs.
We've moved on to discuss other related scenarios.
Post by Mark Goodge
The point is that there are other options if that's a
problem. And there are enough different options that the probability of
someone being unable to use any of them, while still being able to otherwise
live an independent life (ie, to not require being accompanied when out and
about) is very low.
Mark
--
Roland Perry
Serena Blanchflower
2025-01-11 11:19:04 UTC
Reply
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Post by Roland Perry
Post by Mark Goodge
This is only a problem if you have both an inability to remember PINs and a
physical inability to use biometrics. I'm sure that such people do exist
(but then, maybe chip and signature is the solution for them).
What would a signature from someone with severe tremors look like?
Probably not too dissimilar from the signature on the back of the card,
which would also have been written with severe tremors. Anyway,
nowadays, the signature is quite likely to be recorded on a touch screen
device and I don't think anyone's signature is likely to be recognisable
on one of those!
--
Best wishes, Serena
Nothing right in my left brain. Nothing left in my right brain (anon)
Jethro_uk
2025-01-11 11:47:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Mark Goodge
This is only a problem if you have both an inability to remember PINs
and a physical inability to use biometrics. I'm sure that such people
do exist (but then, maybe chip and signature is the solution for
them).
What would a signature from someone with severe tremors look like?
Probably not too dissimilar from the signature on the back of the card,
which would also have been written with severe tremors. Anyway,
nowadays, the signature is quite likely to be recorded on a touch screen
device and I don't think anyone's signature is likely to be recognisable
on one of those!
When was the last time a signature was disputed in court ?
Roland Perry
2025-01-13 11:04:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Mark Goodge
This is only a problem if you have both an inability to remember
PINs and a
physical inability to use biometrics. I'm sure that such people do exist
(but then, maybe chip and signature is the solution for them).
What would a signature from someone with severe tremors look like?
Probably not too dissimilar from the signature on the back of the card,
which would also have been written with severe tremors.
Oh dear, you don't seem to understand tremor at all.
Post by Serena Blanchflower
Anyway, nowadays, the signature is quite likely to be recorded on a
touch screen device and I don't think anyone's signature is likely to
be recognisable on one of those!
No, every one I've seen was on paper.
--
Roland Perry
kat
2025-01-11 12:46:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Sounds so simple, doesn't it.  But a sometimes my phone doesn't recognise my
finger! It has to sit exactly right, and while I know and just try until it
works, I can imagine that for some people in a situation where they might be
stressed, that could be difficult.
I had this problem with my phone, but fortunately it went away after I retrained
the fingerprint profile it held. (I can't remember exactly how I did that, but I
probably just told it to delete the fingerprint it held, and then I took more
care recording the new one.)
I concluded that my finger isn't that big and needs to be very well flattened,
then it works. But sometimes I just get the angle wrong,

Same finger works every time on my iPad.
--
kat
^..^<
Roland Perry
2025-01-09 11:52:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Spike
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Spike
Post by Roland Perry
There was a lady at the next table to me at lunch yesterday, who had
Parkinsons or something similar. She was trying to use a mobile phone
but it seemed to me a miracle she could keep hold of it, let alone
press any specific buttons.
Presumably she could just say “Hey, Siri, phone my
son/husband/partner/carer/knackersyard (or whatever)”?
Is it possible to say to Siri/Alexa "authorise this credit card
transaction", without also logging oneself into the phone?
I wouldn’t know whether Siri/Alexa can authorise cards, as I have those
functions well and truly turned off. However, people using smartphones with
‘wallets’ (or whatever they are called) just seem to wave the phone over
the reader; presumably the lady in your story could do the same.
It depends. Some payment apps require you to authenticate with the
phone, first. Otherwise anyone finding you lost phone could also go
around buying things.
--
Roland Perry
Peter Walker
2025-01-08 15:48:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by Mark Goodge
Also, difficulty remembering PINs isn't particularly uncommon, but
there are a number of strategies for mitigating that issue,
including, if necessary, writing them down, or letting a trusted
friend know them (or, at least, know one particular key PIN) who can
then remind you if necessary. Or use Apple Pay/Google Pay on a phone
and unlock it using biometrics. There may, of course, be many reasons
why some people are uncomfortable with one or more of those, but
simply saying "I don't use cards because I can't remember PINs" is
probably getting close to being untenable for anyone of otherwise
normal mental acuity.
It's also entirely possible for anyone who will have difficulty
remembering their PIN, due to disability, to be issued a chip and
signature card instead. I've had one since PINs were introduced, as I
reckoned the chances of remembering one were somewhere between slim
and non-existent.
And yet they may find acceptance of those difficult as the requirement
for PIN or signature verification diminishes with the use of contactless.

When chip & PIN came to the fore I bore the brunt of 'computer says no'
type responses from poorly trained staff in Sainsburys, Screwfix,
Toolstation and many others when I attempted to pay with chip & signature
cards. In each case I escallated refusals to store managers and when
necessary to head offices to resolve the situation. I ended up carrying
copies of the Mastercard Rules document which set out clearly that
discrimination based on card type was forbidden but it's been a long time
since I have had to verify a contactless transaction by signature so I
wonder if staff will remember the the training they may or not have
received for handling that sort of transaction. Shouldn't be a problem on
my rare visits to Sainsburys as I'd be sure to get the, 'oh, it's you
face'.

Also btw, it's possible to obtain chip & signature cards based on
personal preference as well as disability, as long as you're prepared to
deal with the hassle on acceptance.
Roland Perry
2025-01-08 17:25:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Walker
Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by Mark Goodge
Also, difficulty remembering PINs isn't particularly uncommon, but
there are a number of strategies for mitigating that issue,
including, if necessary, writing them down, or letting a trusted
friend know them (or, at least, know one particular key PIN) who can
then remind you if necessary. Or use Apple Pay/Google Pay on a phone
and unlock it using biometrics. There may, of course, be many reasons
why some people are uncomfortable with one or more of those, but
simply saying "I don't use cards because I can't remember PINs" is
probably getting close to being untenable for anyone of otherwise
normal mental acuity.
It's also entirely possible for anyone who will have difficulty
remembering their PIN, due to disability, to be issued a chip and
signature card instead. I've had one since PINs were introduced, as I
reckoned the chances of remembering one were somewhere between slim
and non-existent.
And yet they may find acceptance of those difficult as the requirement
for PIN or signature verification diminishes with the use of contactless.
Up to a point. I have several contactless cards (and obviously the same
credit rating etc for all of them) and yet one requires a PIN about
every fifth use, and another I can't even remember when it last asked.
Post by Peter Walker
When chip & PIN came to the fore I bore the brunt of 'computer says no'
type responses from poorly trained staff in Sainsburys, Screwfix,
Toolstation and many others when I attempted to pay with chip & signature
cards. In each case I escallated refusals to store managers and when
necessary to head offices to resolve the situation.
I'm fairly used to that sort of thing because some extended family visit
from the USA and they refuse to have contactless because there's no
protection against misuse. Even if the first member of staff hasn't been
trained, it's always fairly easy to escalate to one who does.

ObRail: This doesn't work for TfL, though, so I have a pre-pay debit
card with about £20 on it, which they borrow as required.
Post by Peter Walker
I ended up carrying copies of the Mastercard Rules document which set
out clearly that discrimination based on card type was forbidden but
it's been a long time since I have had to verify a contactless
transaction by signature so I wonder if staff will remember the the
training they may or not have received for handling that sort of
transaction. Shouldn't be a problem on my rare visits to Sainsburys as
I'd be sure to get the, 'oh, it's you face'.
Also btw, it's possible to obtain chip & signature cards based on
personal preference as well as disability, as long as you're prepared to
deal with the hassle on acceptance.
--
Roland Perry
Roger Hayter
2025-01-08 17:35:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Peter Walker
Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by Mark Goodge
Also, difficulty remembering PINs isn't particularly uncommon, but
there are a number of strategies for mitigating that issue,
including, if necessary, writing them down, or letting a trusted
friend know them (or, at least, know one particular key PIN) who can
then remind you if necessary. Or use Apple Pay/Google Pay on a phone
and unlock it using biometrics. There may, of course, be many reasons
why some people are uncomfortable with one or more of those, but
simply saying "I don't use cards because I can't remember PINs" is
probably getting close to being untenable for anyone of otherwise
normal mental acuity.
It's also entirely possible for anyone who will have difficulty
remembering their PIN, due to disability, to be issued a chip and
signature card instead. I've had one since PINs were introduced, as I
reckoned the chances of remembering one were somewhere between slim
and non-existent.
And yet they may find acceptance of those difficult as the requirement
for PIN or signature verification diminishes with the use of contactless.
Up to a point. I have several contactless cards (and obviously the same
credit rating etc for all of them) and yet one requires a PIN about
every fifth use, and another I can't even remember when it last asked.
Post by Peter Walker
When chip & PIN came to the fore I bore the brunt of 'computer says no'
type responses from poorly trained staff in Sainsburys, Screwfix,
Toolstation and many others when I attempted to pay with chip & signature
cards. In each case I escallated refusals to store managers and when
necessary to head offices to resolve the situation.
I'm fairly used to that sort of thing because some extended family visit
from the USA and they refuse to have contactless because there's no
protection against misuse. Even if the first member of staff hasn't been
trained, it's always fairly easy to escalate to one who does.
ObRail: This doesn't work for TfL, though, so I have a pre-pay debit
card with about £20 on it, which they borrow as required.
Post by Peter Walker
I ended up carrying copies of the Mastercard Rules document which set
out clearly that discrimination based on card type was forbidden but
it's been a long time since I have had to verify a contactless
transaction by signature so I wonder if staff will remember the the
training they may or not have received for handling that sort of
transaction. Shouldn't be a problem on my rare visits to Sainsburys as
I'd be sure to get the, 'oh, it's you face'.
Also btw, it's possible to obtain chip & signature cards based on
personal preference as well as disability, as long as you're prepared to
deal with the hassle on acceptance.
How does periodically asking for a PIN work with TfL? Do the card issuers
simply refrain from asking at TfL terminals?
--
Roger Hayter
Roland Perry
2025-01-09 07:28:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Roland Perry
ObRail: This doesn't work for TfL, though, so I have a pre-pay debit
card with about £20 on it, which they borrow as required.
...
Post by Roger Hayter
How does periodically asking for a PIN work with TfL? Do the card issuers
simply refrain from asking at TfL terminals?
TfL don't have terminals that you can type a PIN into. They take the
risk - after all, one more bum on a seat on a bus doesn't cost them
hard cash.

If the charge bounces, then they blacklist the card overnight.
--
Roland Perry
Jethro_uk
2025-01-09 11:42:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Roland Perry
ObRail: This doesn't work for TfL, though, so I have a pre-pay debit
card with about £20 on it, which they borrow as required.
...
Post by Roger Hayter
How does periodically asking for a PIN work with TfL? Do the card
issuers simply refrain from asking at TfL terminals?
TfL don't have terminals that you can type a PIN into. They take the
risk - after all, one more bum on a seat on a bus doesn't cost them hard
cash.
If the charge bounces, then they blacklist the card overnight.
I would have thought it would be near real time.
Roland Perry
2025-01-09 12:13:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Roland Perry
ObRail: This doesn't work for TfL, though, so I have a pre-pay debit
card with about £20 on it, which they borrow as required.
...
Post by Roger Hayter
How does periodically asking for a PIN work with TfL? Do the card
issuers simply refrain from asking at TfL terminals?
TfL don't have terminals that you can type a PIN into. They take the
risk - after all, one more bum on a seat on a bus doesn't cost them hard
cash.
If the charge bounces, then they blacklist the card overnight.
I would have thought it would be near real time.
No, they only have the facilities to upload the blacklists overnight,
and if the 10p test charge works, but the £10 (or whatever) daily charge
bounces, they don't know that until about 4am** when they present a
batch of daily-capped charges to the banks.

** I have some charges which for whatever reason took several days to
get presented to my bank. It's only with modern online banking that you
can observe such delays in practice.
--
Roland Perry
Andy Burns
2025-01-09 12:53:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Roland Perry
If the charge bounces, then they blacklist the card overnight.
I would have thought it would be near real time.
Don't they defer charging until the end of the day to see if they need
to charge you a capped daily fare for multiple journeys, rather than a
single journey?
Roland Perry
2025-01-09 13:31:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Roland Perry
If the charge bounces, then they blacklist the card overnight.
I would have thought it would be near real time.
Don't they defer charging until the end of the day to see if they need
to charge you a capped daily fare for multiple journeys, rather than a
single journey?
Yes, but if the card is already reported as lost or stolen their 10p
trial charge when you touch-in might well bounce. But I don't think
that's sufficiently real-time to prevent the barriers opening.
--
Roland Perry
Serena Blanchflower
2025-01-08 19:37:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Walker
Post by Serena Blanchflower
Post by Mark Goodge
Also, difficulty remembering PINs isn't particularly uncommon, but
there are a number of strategies for mitigating that issue,
including, if necessary, writing them down, or letting a trusted
friend know them (or, at least, know one particular key PIN) who can
then remind you if necessary. Or use Apple Pay/Google Pay on a phone
and unlock it using biometrics. There may, of course, be many reasons
why some people are uncomfortable with one or more of those, but
simply saying "I don't use cards because I can't remember PINs" is
probably getting close to being untenable for anyone of otherwise
normal mental acuity.
It's also entirely possible for anyone who will have difficulty
remembering their PIN, due to disability, to be issued a chip and
signature card instead. I've had one since PINs were introduced, as I
reckoned the chances of remembering one were somewhere between slim
and non-existent.
And yet they may find acceptance of those difficult as the requirement
for PIN or signature verification diminishes with the use of contactless.
The only time I've had a real problem with it was once, with a taxi; the
driver's card reader was too basic to either have a printer or a touch
screen to provide anything I could sign. Luckily, I had enough cash on
me, so I paid that way. Otherwise, they would have phoned the office,
for me to pay over the phone. No big deal.

On other occasions, the person I'm dealing with is sometimes a bit
surprised, they sometimes aren't aware that this is an option, but
they've never tried to refuse the transaction. Contactless doesn't work
too well, I assume that's because I can't feed it a reassuring PIN at
regular intervals. Quite often though, for those transactions where I'd
otherwise use contactless, if I put my card into the reader, it just
approves the transaction without bothering to ask for a signature.
--
Best wishes, Serena
I used to be indecisive. Now I'm not sure.
GB
2025-01-08 11:39:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Goodge
For it to be discriminatory, you'd probably need to show that disabled
people are disproportionately likely to not have cards (or not have cash).
The fact that this particular person preferred not to use cards due to a
particular disability isn't directly relevant; there may well be other
disabled people who, for similar reasons, prefer not to use cash.
There's an Age UK report saying that card payments are an issue for the
elderly:
https://www.ageuk.org.uk/siteassets/documents/reports-and-publications/reports-and-briefings/money-matters/behind_the_headlines_shortchanged.pdf

So, I think that it might be possible to put together a case.

However, how much adaptation is a business required to make? Would that
be a possible defence?
Post by Mark Goodge
What I do think is unreasonable, and is definitely the fault of the hotel
(or, possibly, the Manchester Accommodation BID) is making the tourist tax a
separate item which has to be paid on check-in rather than as part of the
up-front payment made when booking the room.
I am just off to Berlin, and exactly the same applies there. The tourist
tax of a couple of Euros needs to be paid separately. So, maybe it's an
industry-wide practice?
Mark Goodge
2025-01-08 14:26:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by GB
Post by Mark Goodge
For it to be discriminatory, you'd probably need to show that disabled
people are disproportionately likely to not have cards (or not have cash).
The fact that this particular person preferred not to use cards due to a
particular disability isn't directly relevant; there may well be other
disabled people who, for similar reasons, prefer not to use cash.
There's an Age UK report saying that card payments are an issue for the
https://www.ageuk.org.uk/siteassets/documents/reports-and-publications/reports-and-briefings/money-matters/behind_the_headlines_shortchanged.pdf
or https://tinyurl.com/4yxuzbb9 :-)
Post by GB
So, I think that it might be possible to put together a case.
How much of that, though, is because card usage poses a particular problem
for the elderly per se, and how much of it is because older people are
simply more used to cash and are more likely to struggle to adapt?

If the latter, then it's a problem which will go away over time as people
who grew up with cash disappear and people who grew up with cards will
continue to be fine with cards even when they get older. So, while there may
need to be some short-term adjustments put in place to either help people
transition to cards or allow the use of cash, it isn't necessarily an
argument against cards per se.
Post by GB
However, how much adaptation is a business required to make? Would that
be a possible defence?
It's always a defence that the adaptations requested are not reasonable. I
don't think that forcing a cashless business to take cash is a reasonable
adjustment; the business itself may have a bank account that doesn't have a
facility to pay in cash, and workarounds such as letting a staff member
pocket the cash and then pay by card on the customer's behalf would give the
auditors apoplexy. But I do think that allowing alternative digital payments
is reasonable. In the case of a hotel, for example, if the initial booking
and payment was made on line or by phone then any additional payments should
also be capable of being made online or by phone.

Mark
GB
2025-01-08 20:54:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by GB
However, how much adaptation is a business required to make? Would that
be a possible defence?
It's always a defence that the adaptations requested are not reasonable. I
don't think that forcing a cashless business to take cash is a reasonable
adjustment; the business itself may have a bank account that doesn't have a
facility to pay in cash, and workarounds such as letting a staff member
pocket the cash and then pay by card on the customer's behalf would give the
auditors apoplexy. But I do think that allowing alternative digital payments
is reasonable. In the case of a hotel, for example, if the initial booking
and payment was made on line or by phone then any additional payments should
also be capable of being made online or by phone.
When I was in Majestic a while back, the card reader demanded my PIN,
which I had forgotten, as I need it so rarely. So, they just put it
through as a telephone order - cardholder not present. I suppose a wine
store that does deliveries might be more used to that than an hotel,
though.
Post by Mark Goodge
Mark
Roland Perry
2025-01-09 07:31:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by GB
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by GB
However, how much adaptation is a business required to make? Would that
be a possible defence?
It's always a defence that the adaptations requested are not
reasonable. I
don't think that forcing a cashless business to take cash is a reasonable
adjustment; the business itself may have a bank account that doesn't have a
facility to pay in cash, and workarounds such as letting a staff member
pocket the cash and then pay by card on the customer's behalf would give the
auditors apoplexy. But I do think that allowing alternative digital payments
is reasonable. In the case of a hotel, for example, if the initial booking
and payment was made on line or by phone then any additional payments should
also be capable of being made online or by phone.
When I was in Majestic a while back, the card reader demanded my PIN,
which I had forgotten, as I need it so rarely. So, they just put it
through as a telephone order - cardholder not present.
I'm fairly sure that's a violation of their T&C with the banks. But the
risk is [only] that they won't get paid.
Post by GB
I suppose a wine store that does deliveries might be more used to that
than an hotel, though.
--
Roland Perry
Jethro_uk
2025-01-09 11:47:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by GB
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by GB
However, how much adaptation is a business required to make? Would
that be a possible defence?
It's always a defence that the adaptations requested are not reasonable. I
don't think that forcing a cashless business to take cash is a
reasonable adjustment; the business itself may have a bank account
that doesn't have a facility to pay in cash, and workarounds such as
letting a staff member pocket the cash and then pay by card on the
customer's behalf would give the auditors apoplexy. But I do think
that allowing alternative digital payments is reasonable. In the case
of a hotel, for example, if the initial booking and payment was made
on line or by phone then any additional payments should also be
capable of being made online or by phone.
When I was in Majestic a while back, the card reader demanded my PIN,
which I had forgotten, as I need it so rarely. So, they just put it
through as a telephone order - cardholder not present.
I'm fairly sure that's a violation of their T&C with the banks. But the
risk is [only] that they won't get paid.
Post by GB
I suppose a wine store that does deliveries might be more used to that
than an hotel, though.
A few years ago I hired a tool from a local small independent. On
collection he complained that I had no CV2 number on my card (because I
had erased it). It was obvious that they were putting charges through as
CNP. We had a brief "discussion" where I must have impressed upon them
that I knew a fucktonne more than they did about card payment regulations
(at the time having swallowed the PCI tomes).

In the end, because I needed the tool I paid cash. However I also
reported them to my card provider.
Roland Perry
2025-01-09 12:16:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by GB
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by GB
However, how much adaptation is a business required to make? Would
that be a possible defence?
It's always a defence that the adaptations requested are not reasonable. I
don't think that forcing a cashless business to take cash is a
reasonable adjustment; the business itself may have a bank account
that doesn't have a facility to pay in cash, and workarounds such as
letting a staff member pocket the cash and then pay by card on the
customer's behalf would give the auditors apoplexy. But I do think
that allowing alternative digital payments is reasonable. In the case
of a hotel, for example, if the initial booking and payment was made
on line or by phone then any additional payments should also be
capable of being made online or by phone.
When I was in Majestic a while back, the card reader demanded my PIN,
which I had forgotten, as I need it so rarely. So, they just put it
through as a telephone order - cardholder not present.
I'm fairly sure that's a violation of their T&C with the banks. But the
risk is [only] that they won't get paid.
Post by GB
I suppose a wine store that does deliveries might be more used to that
than an hotel, though.
A few years ago I hired a tool from a local small independent. On
collection he complained that I had no CV2 number on my card (because I
had erased it). It was obvious that they were putting charges through as
CNP. We had a brief "discussion" where I must have impressed upon them
that I knew a fucktonne more than they did about card payment regulations
(at the time having swallowed the PCI tomes).
In the end, because I needed the tool I paid cash. However I also
reported them to my card provider.
I had a similar encounter with a small chain of wine shops, them trying
to do CNP over-the-counter and me reporting them. About a week later
they went broke. I've always suspected they were doing CNP to a
different business name to skim as much money off at the last minute.
--
Roland Perry
Jethro_uk
2025-01-09 14:23:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by GB
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by GB
However, how much adaptation is a business required to make? Would
that be a possible defence?
It's always a defence that the adaptations requested are not reasonable. I
don't think that forcing a cashless business to take cash is a
reasonable adjustment; the business itself may have a bank account
that doesn't have a facility to pay in cash, and workarounds such as
letting a staff member pocket the cash and then pay by card on the
customer's behalf would give the auditors apoplexy. But I do think
that allowing alternative digital payments is reasonable. In the
case of a hotel, for example, if the initial booking and payment was
made on line or by phone then any additional payments should also be
capable of being made online or by phone.
When I was in Majestic a while back, the card reader demanded my PIN,
which I had forgotten, as I need it so rarely. So, they just put it
through as a telephone order - cardholder not present.
I'm fairly sure that's a violation of their T&C with the banks. But
the risk is [only] that they won't get paid.
Post by GB
I suppose a wine store that does deliveries might be more used to that
than an hotel, though.
A few years ago I hired a tool from a local small independent. On
collection he complained that I had no CV2 number on my card (because I
had erased it). It was obvious that they were putting charges through as
CNP. We had a brief "discussion" where I must have impressed upon them
that I knew a fucktonne more than they did about card payment
regulations (at the time having swallowed the PCI tomes).
In the end, because I needed the tool I paid cash. However I also
reported them to my card provider.
I had a similar encounter with a small chain of wine shops, them trying
to do CNP over-the-counter and me reporting them. About a week later
they went broke. I've always suspected they were doing CNP to a
different business name to skim as much money off at the last minute.
I don't think there was anything sinister here - just a trader who
thought they'd avoid the fees. However the speed with which the merchant
provider acted demonstrates this is a serious vector for fraud.

When I worked in insurance the PCI rules were quite onerous. Lockers for
staff phones as well as software to listen through call recordings to
identify and delete card numbers.
Adam Funk
2025-01-09 14:37:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by GB
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by GB
However, how much adaptation is a business required to make? Would
that be a possible defence?
It's always a defence that the adaptations requested are not reasonable. I
don't think that forcing a cashless business to take cash is a
reasonable adjustment; the business itself may have a bank account
that doesn't have a facility to pay in cash, and workarounds such as
letting a staff member pocket the cash and then pay by card on the
customer's behalf would give the auditors apoplexy. But I do think
that allowing alternative digital payments is reasonable. In the
case of a hotel, for example, if the initial booking and payment was
made on line or by phone then any additional payments should also be
capable of being made online or by phone.
When I was in Majestic a while back, the card reader demanded my PIN,
which I had forgotten, as I need it so rarely. So, they just put it
through as a telephone order - cardholder not present.
I'm fairly sure that's a violation of their T&C with the banks. But
the risk is [only] that they won't get paid.
Post by GB
I suppose a wine store that does deliveries might be more used to that
than an hotel, though.
A few years ago I hired a tool from a local small independent. On
collection he complained that I had no CV2 number on my card (because I
had erased it). It was obvious that they were putting charges through as
CNP. We had a brief "discussion" where I must have impressed upon them
that I knew a fucktonne more than they did about card payment
regulations (at the time having swallowed the PCI tomes).
In the end, because I needed the tool I paid cash. However I also
reported them to my card provider.
I had a similar encounter with a small chain of wine shops, them trying
to do CNP over-the-counter and me reporting them. About a week later
they went broke. I've always suspected they were doing CNP to a
different business name to skim as much money off at the last minute.
I don't think there was anything sinister here - just a trader who
thought they'd avoid the fees. However the speed with which the merchant
provider acted demonstrates this is a serious vector for fraud.
Are the fees *lower* for CNP? I would have expected that to be
considered riskier than cardholder-standing-right-there transactions.
Jethro_uk
2025-01-09 15:45:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Roland Perry
Post by GB
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by GB
However, how much adaptation is a business required to make?
Would that be a possible defence?
It's always a defence that the adaptations requested are not reasonable. I
don't think that forcing a cashless business to take cash is a
reasonable adjustment; the business itself may have a bank account
that doesn't have a facility to pay in cash, and workarounds such
as letting a staff member pocket the cash and then pay by card on
the customer's behalf would give the auditors apoplexy. But I do
think that allowing alternative digital payments is reasonable. In
the case of a hotel, for example, if the initial booking and
payment was made on line or by phone then any additional payments
should also be capable of being made online or by phone.
When I was in Majestic a while back, the card reader demanded my
PIN, which I had forgotten, as I need it so rarely. So, they just
put it through as a telephone order - cardholder not present.
I'm fairly sure that's a violation of their T&C with the banks. But
the risk is [only] that they won't get paid.
Post by GB
I suppose a wine store that does deliveries might be more used to
that than an hotel, though.
A few years ago I hired a tool from a local small independent. On
collection he complained that I had no CV2 number on my card (because
I had erased it). It was obvious that they were putting charges
through as CNP. We had a brief "discussion" where I must have
impressed upon them that I knew a fucktonne more than they did about
card payment regulations (at the time having swallowed the PCI tomes).
In the end, because I needed the tool I paid cash. However I also
reported them to my card provider.
I had a similar encounter with a small chain of wine shops, them
trying to do CNP over-the-counter and me reporting them. About a week
later they went broke. I've always suspected they were doing CNP to a
different business name to skim as much money off at the last minute.
I don't think there was anything sinister here - just a trader who
thought they'd avoid the fees. However the speed with which the
merchant provider acted demonstrates this is a serious vector for
fraud.
Are the fees *lower* for CNP? I would have expected that to be
considered riskier than cardholder-standing-right-there transactions.
I think it's more the rental of the card machine that was being swerved.
The manager wanted to type my card details into a website on their
desktop.

This was pre-covid. The commercials may be different now.

No one needs to ever see your CV2. If they ask, they *are* dodgy.
Jon Ribbens
2025-01-09 15:53:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Jethro_uk
I don't think there was anything sinister here - just a trader who
thought they'd avoid the fees. However the speed with which the
merchant provider acted demonstrates this is a serious vector for
fraud.
Are the fees *lower* for CNP? I would have expected that to be
considered riskier than cardholder-standing-right-there transactions.
I think it's more the rental of the card machine that was being swerved.
The manager wanted to type my card details into a website on their
desktop.
This was pre-covid. The commercials may be different now.
No one needs to ever see your CV2. If they ask, they *are* dodgy.
Part of the point of "Chip'n'PIN" was supposed to be that the card
would never leave the cardholder's possession. Somehow that message
got lost along the way...
Jethro_uk
2025-01-09 17:59:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Jethro_uk
I don't think there was anything sinister here - just a trader who
thought they'd avoid the fees. However the speed with which the
merchant provider acted demonstrates this is a serious vector for
fraud.
Are the fees *lower* for CNP? I would have expected that to be
considered riskier than cardholder-standing-right-there transactions.
I think it's more the rental of the card machine that was being swerved.
The manager wanted to type my card details into a website on their
desktop.
This was pre-covid. The commercials may be different now.
No one needs to ever see your CV2. If they ask, they *are* dodgy.
Part of the point of "Chip'n'PIN" was supposed to be that the card would
never leave the cardholder's possession. Somehow that message got lost
along the way...
I remember that instruction very clearly. Taking a very dim view of shops
that placed their readers so the cashier had to "help" you put your card
in.
Mark Goodge
2025-01-09 22:05:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by GB
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by GB
However, how much adaptation is a business required to make? Would that
be a possible defence?
It's always a defence that the adaptations requested are not reasonable. I
don't think that forcing a cashless business to take cash is a reasonable
adjustment; the business itself may have a bank account that doesn't have a
facility to pay in cash, and workarounds such as letting a staff member
pocket the cash and then pay by card on the customer's behalf would give the
auditors apoplexy. But I do think that allowing alternative digital payments
is reasonable. In the case of a hotel, for example, if the initial booking
and payment was made on line or by phone then any additional payments should
also be capable of being made online or by phone.
When I was in Majestic a while back, the card reader demanded my PIN,
which I had forgotten, as I need it so rarely. So, they just put it
through as a telephone order - cardholder not present. I suppose a wine
store that does deliveries might be more used to that than an hotel,
though.
That's a breach of their merchant agreement. Doing a transaction as CNP if
the C is actually P is prohibited, because it's a significant fraud risk.

Mark
Simon Parker
2025-01-09 19:15:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Goodge
What I do think is unreasonable, and is definitely the fault of the hotel
(or, possibly, the Manchester Accommodation BID) is making the tourist tax a
separate item which has to be paid on check-in rather than as part of the
up-front payment made when booking the room. I haven't stayed in a hotel in
Manchester since the charge was introduced, but I am expecting to later this
year, so I'll see if I get asked for it up-front or have to pay it on
check-in as well. But even if that is a decision by the hotel operator it's
not something that the staff on duty have any control over, so it's
unreasonable to blame them for any issues encountered in paying it.
Dealing just with this issue there are legal and practical reasons why
it is charged in this way, (either at check-in or check-out, but not
when the fee for the advance booking of the room is taken).

As it is a tourist tax, legally it must be charged on a per room per
night basis only when the room is occupied.

If the guest doesn't arrive or cancels the booking prior to arrival, no
tourist tax is due and if it has been charged at the point of booking,
legally, it must be refunded. (Hotel cancellation rates are typically
somewhere around 20-25% rising to 30% (or even higher!) for bookings
with Lead Days (the number of full clear days between the booking being
made and the date of check-in) of 20 or above.

In other words, somewhere between 1 in 5 and 1 in 3 bookings is likely
to be cancelled.

The terms and conditions of the room booking may mean that in the event
of cancellation the entirety of the room charge, a substantial portion
thereof, or a deposit amount may be charged meaning the customer may or
may not be due a refund for some or all of what they've paid.

However, regardless of how much notice has been given, as above, legally
the tourist tax can only be levied against occupied rooms. No
occupation means no tourist tax.

By taking the tourist tax on check-in / check-out as a separate
transaction, it keeps things cleaner and therefore easier for the hotel.

Taking the tourist tax on check-in means a refund is due only if the
customer leaves the hotel room earlier than expected, which affects a
very small number of bookings and the charges involved in processing
such refunds is negligible in the grand scheme of things.

But having to refund £1.20 per night per booking that is cancelled or a
no-show for somewhere between 1 in 5 and 1 in 3 bookings is both messy
and potentially costly, hence hotels levying it on check-in / check-out
rather than when the booking is made.

That said, the fact that the tourist tax of £1.20 was due per room per
night and that it would be taken upon arrival should have been made
clear in the original booking. If it wasn't, the customer may have
redress against the hotel for this.

Regards

S.P.
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