Another triumph of Brexit - losing control

Post by Roland Perry
Bought something on eBay, a person to person thing. From France.
Today I learn it arrived in UK on 8th December (almost a week ago) and
today, almost a week later, I get a ransom note from Parcelfarce that
there's £50 VAT to pay (plus £12 for their admin).
I hope Farage, Boris, Gove and thousands of gullible xenophobes who were
persuaded to vote "leave" are happy about this outcome, which if I could
find a bus, I'd paint on the side.

Taxes are usually payable on imported good, why do you find it surprising?

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
When you think there's no hope left remember the lobsters in the tank in
the Titanic's restaurant.

Roland Perry

2024-12-14 18:04:09 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
Bought something on eBay, a person to person thing. From France.
Today I learn it arrived in UK on 8th December (almost a week ago) and
today, almost a week later, I get a ransom note from Parcelfarce that
there's £50 VAT to pay (plus £12 for their admin).
I hope Farage, Boris, Gove and thousands of gullible xenophobes who
were persuaded to vote "leave" are happy about this outcome, which if
I could find a bus, I'd paint on the side.

Taxes are usually payable on imported good, why do you find it surprising?

(a) Because when we were in the EU we didn't on goods from France
(b) And buying something off a person should not incur VAT. Import duty,
maybe, but this is VAT.

I don't remember the Leave campaign saying "vote for us, and pay 20%
extra on everything you buy from France".

--
Roland Perry

Andy Burns

2024-12-14 18:26:44 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
I don't remember the Leave campaign saying "vote for us, and pay 20%
extra on everything you buy from France".

Buy from a UK business at £300 inc VAT, or import privately from EU at
£250 then pay the VAT separately. OK the admin fee is extra, but that's
always existed for e.g. USA transactions

Roland Perry

2024-12-15 09:47:58 UTC

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Roland Perry
I don't remember the Leave campaign saying "vote for us, and pay 20%
extra on everything you buy from France".

Buy from a UK business at £300 inc VAT,

It's a secondhand item from eBay, you have to get them where you can.

Post by Andy Burns
or import privately from EU at £250 then pay the VAT separately.

I thought I *was* importing privately. I'm not a business.

Post by Andy Burns
OK the admin fee is extra, but that's always existed for e.g. USA
transactions

If there was no "VAT" to pay, they wouldn't need an admin fee! And I've
paid 15-Euros for P&P which should be sufficient to deliver it.

ps Parcelforce say it should be delivered "Next working day", now that
I've paid. Apparently they aren't working on Monday, because they
also said Tuesday.

--
Roland Perry

JNugent

2024-12-15 15:54:57 UTC

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Roland Perry
I don't remember the Leave campaign saying "vote for us, and pay 20%
extra on everything you buy from France".

Buy from a UK business at £300 inc VAT,

It's a secondhand item from eBay, you have to get them where you can.

Post by Andy Burns
or import privately from EU at £250 then pay the VAT separately.

I thought I *was* importing privately. I'm not a business.

Post by Andy Burns
OK the admin fee is extra, but that's always existed for e.g. USA
transactions

If there was no "VAT" to pay, they wouldn't need an admin fee!

Why should there be no VAT to pay?

Is it possible to get away with it when buying within the UK?

Jeff Gaines

2024-12-14 22:04:57 UTC

Taxes are usually payable on imported good, why do you find it surprising?

(a) Because when we were in the EU we didn't on goods from France
(b) And buying something off a person should not incur VAT. Import duty,
maybe, but this is VAT.
I don't remember the Leave campaign saying "vote for us, and pay 20% extra
on everything you buy from France".

It's interesting that after the, usually offensive, rhetoric about Brexit
the only specific complaints people raise are when it hits them
personally. Not the country, not the economy, not the boat people but "I
can't visit France like I used to", I can't go to my second home", this
item now costs ME more".

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
640k ought to be enough for anyone.
(Bill Gates, 1981)

Ian Jackson

2024-12-14 23:14:21 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
Bought something on eBay, a person to person thing. From France.
Today I learn it arrived in UK on 8th December (almost a week ago)
and today, almost a week later, I get a ransom note from Parcelfarce
that there's £50 VAT to pay (plus £12 for their admin).
I hope Farage, Boris, Gove and thousands of gullible xenophobes who
were persuaded to vote "leave" are happy about this outcome, which
if I could find a bus, I'd paint on the side.

Taxes are usually payable on imported good, why do you find it surprising?

(a) Because when we were in the EU we didn't on goods from France
(b) And buying something off a person should not incur VAT. Import duty,
maybe, but this is VAT.
I don't remember the Leave campaign saying "vote for us, and pay 20%
extra on everything you buy from France".

It's interesting that after the, usually offensive, rhetoric about
Brexit the only specific complaints people raise are when it hits them
personally. Not the country,

But we, the people, ARE the country.

Post by Jeff Gaines
not the economy,

But as we now have to pay more, this IS a hit on the economy.

Post by Jeff Gaines
not the boat people

You're right on this. Despite what many Brexiteers were tricked into
believing, Brexit could not affect illegal immigration.

Post by Jeff Gaines
but "I can't visit France like I used to",

Which, for some people is absolutely true (for many reasons).

Post by Jeff Gaines
I can't go to my second home"

Which, for some people, can be absolutely true.

Post by Jeff Gaines
, this item now costs ME more".

Which, for some people, can be absolutely true.

--
Ian
Aims and ambitions are neither attainments nor achievements

Jeff Gaines

2024-12-15 08:42:48 UTC

Post by Ian Jackson

Taxes are usually payable on imported good, why do you find it surprising?

(a) Because when we were in the EU we didn't on goods from France
(b) And buying something off a person should not incur VAT. Import duty,
maybe, but this is VAT.
I don't remember the Leave campaign saying "vote for us, and pay 20% extra
on everything you buy from France".

It's interesting that after the, usually offensive, rhetoric about Brexit
the only specific complaints people raise are when it hits them
personally. Not the country,

But we, the people, ARE the country.

There is a certain grandeur about "We the People"* but the complaints I
have read are usually about "me the person" :-)

* from the days when Americans still spoke English properly.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
Indecision is the key to flexibility

JNugent

2024-12-15 02:46:37 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
Bought something on eBay, a person to person thing. From France.
Today I learn it arrived in UK on 8th December (almost a week ago)
and today, almost a week later, I get a ransom note from Parcelfarce
that there's £50 VAT to pay (plus £12 for their admin).
I hope Farage, Boris, Gove and thousands of gullible xenophobes who
were persuaded to vote "leave" are happy about this outcome, which
if I could find a bus, I'd paint on the side.

Taxes are usually payable on imported good, why do you find it surprising?

(a) Because when we were in the EU we didn't on goods from France
(b) And buying something off a person should not incur VAT. Import duty,
maybe, but this is VAT.
I don't remember the Leave campaign saying "vote for us, and pay 20%
extra on everything you buy from France".

It's interesting that after the, usually offensive, rhetoric about
Brexit the only specific complaints people raise are when it hits them
personally. Not the country, not the economy, not the boat people but "I
can't visit France like I used to", I can't go to my second home", this
item now costs ME more".

And it isn't even as though the rest of us don't pay VAT on items that
happen to have been imported from France (or from anywhere else, or even
haven't been imported at all).

Roland Perry

2024-12-15 09:51:32 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
Bought something on eBay, a person to person thing. From France.
Today I learn it arrived in UK on 8th December (almost a week ago)
and today, almost a week later, I get a ransom note from Parcelfarce
that there's £50 VAT to pay (plus £12 for their admin).
I hope Farage, Boris, Gove and thousands of gullible xenophobes who
were persuaded to vote "leave" are happy about this outcome, which
if I could find a bus, I'd paint on the side.

Taxes are usually payable on imported good, why do you find it surprising?

(a) Because when we were in the EU we didn't on goods from France
(b) And buying something off a person should not incur VAT. Import duty,
maybe, but this is VAT.
I don't remember the Leave campaign saying "vote for us, and pay 20%
extra on everything you buy from France".

It's interesting that after the, usually offensive, rhetoric about
Brexit the only specific complaints people raise are when it hits them
personally.

I've been raising various complaints for years. Yes, sometimes they do
directly affect me, other times it's on behalf of other people (or
classes of people).

Post by Jeff Gaines
Not the country, not the economy, not the boat people

What on earth has "boat people" got to do with Brexit? (Other than a
treaty expired as a result which makes it harder for us to return them
to France).

Post by Jeff Gaines
but "I can't visit France like I used to", I can't go to my second
home", this item now costs ME more".

I don't have a second home, but yes some people have been massively
inconvenienced by that.

--
Roland Perry

Tim Jackson

2024-12-14 18:21:23 UTC

On 14 Dec 2024 17:36:02 GMT, Jeff Gaines wrote...

Taxes are usually payable on imported good, why do you find it surprising?

Prior to Brexit, VAT wouldn't have been payable on a person-to-person
transaction where neither party was VAT registered.

Even if the sender had been VAT registered, it would have been paid in
the country of origin and included in the price charged, rather than an
unknown extra charge and delay on delivery.

--
Tim Jackson
***@timjackson.invalid
(Change '.invalid' to '.plus.com' to reply direct)

Roger Hayter

2024-12-14 18:58:31 UTC

Post by Tim Jackson
On 14 Dec 2024 17:36:02 GMT, Jeff Gaines wrote...

Taxes are usually payable on imported good, why do you find it surprising?

Prior to Brexit, VAT wouldn't have been payable on a person-to-person
transaction where neither party was VAT registered.
Even if the sender had been VAT registered, it would have been paid in
the country of origin and included in the price charged, rather than an
unknown extra charge and delay on delivery.

But the latter is still true if the seller is a business, which is a fair
assumption if they are VAT registered. Though the delay and possible customs
charge still applies.

--
Roger Hayter

Tim Jackson

2024-12-15 02:49:02 UTC

On 14 Dec 2024 18:58:31 GMT, Roger Hayter wrote...

Post by Tim Jackson
Prior to Brexit, VAT wouldn't have been payable on a person-to-person
transaction where neither party was VAT registered.
Even if the sender had been VAT registered, it would have been paid in
the country of origin and included in the price charged, rather than an
unknown extra charge and delay on delivery.

But the latter is still true if the seller is a business, which is a fair
assumption if they are VAT registered. Though the delay and possible customs
charge still applies.

Er, yes. I think we're in fierce agreement?

--
Tim Jackson
***@timjackson.invalid
(Change '.invalid' to '.plus.com' to reply direct)

Roger Hayter

2024-12-15 03:32:35 UTC

Post by Tim Jackson
On 14 Dec 2024 18:58:31 GMT, Roger Hayter wrote...

But the latter is still true if the seller is a business, which is a fair
assumption if they are VAT registered. Though the delay and possible customs
charge still applies.

Er, yes. I think we're in fierce agreement?

Maybe. But the VAT is *still* paid in the country of origin, though sent to
the UK. And that is exactly the way vat is treated for sales by a business
between EU countries. And I think at the moment if the parcel has a customs
label and the VAT is applied the UK hasn't really got around to delaying it in
customs.

So it seems for business sales from the EU we haven't got round to making them
more difficult yet, just sales by individuals.

--
Roger Hayter

Tim Jackson

2024-12-15 04:08:11 UTC

On 15 Dec 2024 03:32:35 GMT, Roger Hayter wrote...

Post by Tim Jackson
On 14 Dec 2024 18:58:31 GMT, Roger Hayter wrote...

But the latter is still true if the seller is a business, which is a fair
assumption if they are VAT registered. Though the delay and possible customs
charge still applies.

Er, yes. I think we're in fierce agreement?

Maybe. But the VAT is *still* paid in the country of origin, though sent to
the UK. And that is exactly the way vat is treated for sales by a business
between EU countries. And I think at the moment if the parcel has a customs
label and the VAT is applied the UK hasn't really got around to delaying it in
customs.
So it seems for business sales from the EU we haven't got round to making them
more difficult yet, just sales by individuals.

AIUI, foreign businesses are supposed to register with HMRC to collect
UK VAT at source. That makes it faster and cheaper for their UK
customers, as EU purchases used to be. But I think it is more difficult
for EU businesses, as it's a separate registration and not collected
with the rest of their VAT in their home country. As a result, some
businesses will be deterred from selling to the UK, and UK customers
lose out on a choice of suppliers.

--
Tim Jackson
***@timjackson.invalid
(Change '.invalid' to '.plus.com' to reply direct)

Brian

2024-12-14 20:07:00 UTC

If you were buying from the USA, there would be a similar bill. Would you
complain about American being given Independence?

Seriously, the real issue is HMRC imposing VAT on personal imports. It
isn’t necessary and could be waived.

Roland Perry

2024-12-15 10:00:12 UTC

Post by Brian

If you were buying from the USA, there would be a similar bill. Would you
complain about American being given Independence?

We didn't have a referendum to leave the USA, or to give them
Independence.

Post by Brian
Seriously, the real issue is HMRC imposing VAT on personal imports. It
isn’t necessary and could be waived.

I'll be putting in a claim because I think the item may qualify under on
of their poorly-explained exemptions.

--
Roland Perry

Mark Goodge

2024-12-14 20:34:04 UTC

Maybe they are happy with it. Maybe their priorities are different to yours.
Maybe they rarely buy from foreign sellers, and see no reason to be
concerned about those who do. Maybe discouraging imports was one of their
goals. Maybe they see it as an acceptable negative consequence of a change
that will have other, greater benefits.

Mark

Jeff Layman

2024-12-15 09:17:10 UTC

Perhaps the strangest thing about Brexit is that it seems to have
induced in Remainers an everlasting state of OCD, in which if something
can be "blamed" on it (rightly or wrongly), they cannot stop themselves
commenting on it. It's now well over eight years since the Brexit vote,
and I do wonder why Remainers keep scratching away at this - to them -
festering sore rather than leave it alone. It won't help them as there
will be no referendum in the near or even medium future to change the
status quo.

Who are they letting know with the endless "I told you so" comments?
Brexiteers won't agree or care, and Remainers will just nod their heads
in agreement. It's a pointless exercise, which just emphasises its OCD
condition.

--
Jeff

Roland Perry

2024-12-15 10:03:05 UTC

Perhaps the strangest thing about Brexit is that it seems to have
induced in Remainers an everlasting state of OCD, in which if something
can be "blamed" on it (rightly or wrongly), they cannot stop themselves
commenting on it. It's now well over eight years since the Brexit vote,
and I do wonder why Remainers keep scratching away at this - to them -
festering sore rather than leave it alone. It won't help them as there
will be no referendum in the near or even medium future to change the
status quo.
Who are they letting know with the endless "I told you so" comments?
Brexiteers won't agree or care, and Remainers will just nod their heads
in agreement. It's a pointless exercise, which just emphasises its OCD
condition.

It's important because we should never let popularist politicians ever
again sway a vote, without the electorate being fully appraised of the
consequences.

--
Roland Perry

Norman Wells

2024-12-15 12:26:47 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
It's important because we should never let popularist politicians ever
again sway a vote, without the electorate being fully appraised of the
consequences.

So, who decides who is 'popularist' and 'fully'?

That nice Mr Assad is currently looking for such a job, I believe.

JNugent

2024-12-15 15:57:27 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
Bought something on eBay, a person to person thing. From France.
Today I learn it arrived in UK on 8th December (almost a week ago) and
today, almost a week later, I get a ransom note from Parcelfarce that
there's £50 VAT to pay (plus £12 for their admin).
I hope Farage, Boris, Gove and thousands of gullible xenophobes who
were persuaded to vote "leave" are happy about this outcome, which
if I could find a bus, I'd paint on the side.

Maybe they are happy with it. Maybe their priorities are different
to yours.
Maybe they rarely buy from foreign sellers, and see no reason to be
concerned about those who do. Maybe discouraging imports was one of
their goals. Maybe they see it as an acceptable negative consequence
of a change that will have other, greater benefits.

Perhaps the strangest thing about Brexit is that it seems to have
induced in Remainers an everlasting state of OCD, in which if
something can be "blamed" on it (rightly or wrongly), they cannot stop
themselves commenting on it. It's now well over eight years since the
Brexit vote, and I do wonder why Remainers keep scratching away at
this - to them - festering sore rather than leave it alone. It won't
help them as there will be no referendum in the near or even medium
future to change the status quo.
Who are they letting know with the endless "I told you so" comments?
Brexiteers won't agree or care, and Remainers will just nod their
heads in agreement. It's a pointless exercise, which just emphasises
its OCD condition.

It's important because we should never let popularist politicians ever
again sway a vote, without the electorate being fully appraised of the
consequences.

"appraised" or "apprised"?

Dave

2024-12-15 11:35:41 UTC

Perhaps the strangest thing about Brexit is that it seems to have
induced in Remainers an everlasting state of OCD, in which if something
can be "blamed" on it (rightly or wrongly), they cannot stop themselves
commenting on it. It's now well over eight years since the Brexit vote,
and I do wonder why Remainers keep scratching away at this - to them -
festering sore rather than leave it alone. It won't help them as there
will be no referendum in the near or even medium future to change the
status quo.
Who are they letting know with the endless "I told you so" comments?
Brexiteers won't agree or care, and Remainers will just nod their heads
in agreement. It's a pointless exercise, which just emphasises its OCD
condition.

Or maybe they care about facts and ongoing problems caused by it.

In economic terms, the business case is overwhelmingly in their favour and
moving ever more in their favour every single day. The only difference is
that is now undeniably so.

--
Dr Dave

Jeff Layman

2024-12-15 18:53:16 UTC

Perhaps the strangest thing about Brexit is that it seems to have
induced in Remainers an everlasting state of OCD, in which if something
can be "blamed" on it (rightly or wrongly), they cannot stop themselves
commenting on it. It's now well over eight years since the Brexit vote,
and I do wonder why Remainers keep scratching away at this - to them -
festering sore rather than leave it alone. It won't help them as there
will be no referendum in the near or even medium future to change the
status quo.
Who are they letting know with the endless "I told you so" comments?
Brexiteers won't agree or care, and Remainers will just nod their heads
in agreement. It's a pointless exercise, which just emphasises its OCD
condition.

Or maybe they care about facts and ongoing problems caused by it.

So what? Other than keep repeating it what do they expect will happen?
Do /you/ think it will bring another referendum any closer than 25 years
away?

Post by Dave
In economic terms, the business case is overwhelmingly in their favour and
moving ever more in their favour every single day. The only difference is
that is now undeniably so.

Perhaps that depends on whose analyses you believe. I'll see your OBR
conclusions
<https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/the-economy-forecast/brexit-analysis/#assumptions>
and raise you <https://thecritic.co.uk/why-the-obr-is-wrong-about-brexit/>.

I'm sure you can find many supporting arguments that Brexit is an
economic disaster and others can find the opposite. I don't know which
is true (if either). What matters is that losing a layer of politicians
and their hangers-on is always worth having.

--
Jeff

Roland Perry

2024-12-15 10:01:08 UTC

What like £160bn and counting, down the toilet so far?

--
Roland Perry

Martin Brown

2024-12-15 11:13:42 UTC

They can think about that as they queue for ages to enter the EU for
their holidays as non-EU citizens.

Post by Mark Goodge
Maybe they are happy with it. Maybe their priorities are different to yours.
Maybe they rarely buy from foreign sellers, and see no reason to be
concerned about those who do. Maybe discouraging imports was one of their
goals. Maybe they see it as an acceptable negative consequence of a change
that will have other, greater benefits.

Like the "patriotic" blue British passport now made by a Franco-Dutch
company instead of nasty old maroon coloured EU ones made by British
firm De la Rue.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/17/de-la-rue-raise-100m-cut-jobs-gateshead-printing-site

I was caught out in a similar way to Roland for a professional grade 4k
monitor on Amazon at a good price. I didn't spot that it was on Amazon
market place and the business seller was actually in Italy. I only found
that out when I got a phone call from the UK import handlers demanding
payment for customs and UK VAT on top of that. I thought about declining
but after doing some sums I was only out of pocket by ~£50 and the
monitor was exactly what I wanted. The monitor is excellent but I was
not at all impressed to find that I was unwittingly importing it from Italy.

--
Martin Brown

Jethro_uk

2024-12-15 11:57:09 UTC

Post by Martin Brown
Like the "patriotic" blue British passport now made by a Franco-Dutch
company instead of nasty old maroon coloured EU ones made by British
firm De la Rue.

It gets worse. The French company further outsourced it to a Polish
subsidiary (Thales) on the basis it "wasn't really an important contract".

Andy Burns

2024-12-15 12:02:06 UTC

Post by Martin Brown
They can think about that as they queue for ages to enter the EU for
their holidays as non-EU citizens.

Or they can go somewhere that isn't tourist-phobic

<https://globaledge.msu.edu/blog/post/57411>

Roland Perry

2024-12-15 12:40:16 UTC

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Martin Brown
They can think about that as they queue for ages to enter the EU for
their holidays as non-EU citizens.

Or they can go somewhere that isn't tourist-phobic
<https://globaledge.msu.edu/blog/post/57411>

The majority of my trips to Europe are on business, and I don't get to
choose the country (other than to turn down that particular bit of
business).

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry

2024-12-15 12:37:46 UTC

Post by Martin Brown
I was caught out in a similar way to Roland

Not quite the same way: I knew it was coming from France, but didn't
expect VAT to be levied on a private sale. Which is undeniably a
consequence of Brexit.

Post by Martin Brown
for a professional grade 4k monitor on Amazon at a good price. I didn't
spot that it was on Amazon market place and the business seller was
actually in Italy. I only found that out when I got a phone call from
the UK import handlers demanding payment for customs and UK VAT on top
of that. I thought about declining but after doing some sums I was only
out of pocket by ~£50 and the monitor was exactly what I wanted. The
monitor is excellent but I was not at all impressed to find that I was
unwittingly importing it from Italy.

--
Roland Perry

Roger Hayter

2024-12-15 13:02:31 UTC

Post by Martin Brown

They can think about that as they queue for ages to enter the EU for
their holidays as non-EU citizens.

Like the "patriotic" blue British passport now made by a Franco-Dutch
company instead of nasty old maroon coloured EU ones made by British
firm De la Rue.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/17/de-la-rue-raise-100m-cut-jobs-gateshead-printing-site
I was caught out in a similar way to Roland for a professional grade 4k
monitor on Amazon at a good price. I didn't spot that it was on Amazon
market place and the business seller was actually in Italy. I only found
that out when I got a phone call from the UK import handlers demanding
payment for customs and UK VAT on top of that. I thought about declining
but after doing some sums I was only out of pocket by ~£50 and the
monitor was exactly what I wanted. The monitor is excellent but I was
not at all impressed to find that I was unwittingly importing it from Italy.

I would complain to Amazon. The seller (and therefore arguably Amazon) was
acting illegally by failing to quote a VAT inclusive price and remit the VAT
to HMRC. Assuming you were buying as a consumer. In practice, things sold this
way don't seem to incur customs handling charges, let alone unexpected VAT.

--
Roger Hayter

Jethro_uk

2024-12-15 15:03:27 UTC

On 15 Dec 2024 at 11:13:42 GMT, "Martin Brown"

Post by Martin Brown

Post by Roland Perry
Bought something on eBay, a person to person thing. From France.
Today I learn it arrived in UK on 8th December (almost a week ago)
and today, almost a week later, I get a ransom note from Parcelfarce
that there's £50 VAT to pay (plus £12 for their admin).
I hope Farage, Boris, Gove and thousands of gullible xenophobes who
were persuaded to vote "leave" are happy about this outcome, which if
I could find a bus, I'd paint on the side.

They can think about that as they queue for ages to enter the EU for
their holidays as non-EU citizens.

Post by Mark Goodge
Maybe they are happy with it. Maybe their priorities are different to yours.
Maybe they rarely buy from foreign sellers, and see no reason to be
concerned about those who do. Maybe discouraging imports was one of
their goals. Maybe they see it as an acceptable negative consequence
of a change that will have other, greater benefits.

cut-jobs-gateshead-printing-site

Post by Martin Brown
I was caught out in a similar way to Roland for a professional grade 4k
monitor on Amazon at a good price. I didn't spot that it was on Amazon
market place and the business seller was actually in Italy. I only
found that out when I got a phone call from the UK import handlers
demanding payment for customs and UK VAT on top of that. I thought
about declining but after doing some sums I was only out of pocket by
~£50 and the monitor was exactly what I wanted. The monitor is
excellent but I was not at all impressed to find that I was unwittingly
importing it from Italy.

I would complain to Amazon. The seller (and therefore arguably Amazon)
was acting illegally by failing to quote a VAT inclusive price and remit
the VAT to HMRC. Assuming you were buying as a consumer. In practice,
things sold this way don't seem to incur customs handling charges, let
alone unexpected VAT.

The problem here is the size of the UK market to Amazon, compared to the
size of the EU market.

A factor which also works against the idea of some other player trying to
pick up any slack Amazon leave.

Norman Wells

2024-12-15 12:44:24 UTC

Post by Martin Brown

They can think about that as they queue for ages to enter the EU for
their holidays as non-EU citizens.

There could be a reciprocal benefit though on return to the UK as a UK
citizen, which on average people do more often than entering the EU.

The only problem is, they don't seem to have implemented separation of
UK and EU citizens yet. Why, I don't know, but that is *our*
government's choice to make, so you know whom to contact if you're unhappy.

Anyway, even if it did, I suspect UK immigration management would just
reduce the number of staff or machines available for UK citizens to make
both queues again the same length. It's how it works.

And I doubt if it's actually any different at any EU border.

JNugent

2024-12-15 16:00:09 UTC

On 15/12/2024 11:13 am, Martin Brown wrote:

[ ... ]

Post by Martin Brown
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/17/de-la-rue-raise-100m-cut-jobs-gateshead-printing-site
I was caught out in a similar way to Roland for a professional grade 4k
monitor on Amazon at a good price. I didn't spot that it was on Amazon
market place and the business seller was actually in Italy. I only found
that out when I got a phone call from the UK import handlers demanding
payment for customs and UK VAT on top of that. I thought about declining
but after doing some sums I was only out of pocket by ~£50 and the
monitor was exactly what I wanted. The monitor is excellent but I was
not at all impressed to find that I was unwittingly importing it from Italy.

Whose fault was that?

Spike

2024-12-14 19:24:46 UTC

Can it be taken that imports from the US and ROW never attracted these
heinous charges?

Post by Roland Perry
I hope Farage, Boris, Gove and thousands of gullible xenophobes who were
persuaded to vote "leave" are happy about this outcome, which if I could
find a bus, I'd paint on the side.

I voted against the European version of the Soviet Union, and there can’t
be too high a price on that.

Poor economic conditions and political instability in the powerhouse
economies of the EU means that the smart money is moving out in order to
get better returns, namely to the UK and US (report from a BBC R4 Business
news programme only this week).

--
Spike

Roland Perry

2024-12-15 09:58:31 UTC

Can it be taken that imports from the US and ROW never attracted these
heinous charges?

Irrelevant, we didn't "leave" the USA/ROW. Nor did the Leave campaign
explain the consequences of leaving when it came to matters such as
personal imports.

I voted against the European version of the Soviet Union, and there can’t
be too high a price on that.

Jolly good, you were perfectly entitled to that view. However, it's A
democracy and the majority was wafer-thin, with *your* reason hardly
showing up on the radar. People voted for trumped up reasons like bent
bananas and the false promise of more money for the NHS.

--
Roland Perry

Jeff Gaines

2024-12-15 11:10:46 UTC

Can it be taken that imports from the US and ROW never attracted these
heinous charges?

Irrelevant, we didn't "leave" the USA/ROW. Nor did the Leave campaign
explain the consequences of leaving when it came to matters such as
personal imports.

It is highly relevant in that on leaving the EU people should have
expected that its members became just another country and would be treated
as such.

Was it common for people to rely on being told the "consequences of
leaving"? Only adults had a vote so most of them would have been capable
of making their own decisions surely? I did, as I do for elections. No
party has ever honoured election promises in the way that people tend to
interpret them so why listen to them? Much more sensible to consider this
party generally stand for this, that party generally stand for that surely?

I voted against the European version of the Soviet Union, and there can’t
be too high a price on that.

Jolly good, you were perfectly entitled to that view. However, it's A
democracy and the majority was wafer-thin, with your reason hardly showing
up on the radar. People voted for trumped up reasons like bent bananas and
the false promise of more money for the NHS.

Come on, we're not going there again surely? I voted against the United
States of Europe as I'm sure did many others.

The banana regulations certainly did exist, you can find them here:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2011/1333#:~:text=19%20December%202011-,laying%20down%20marketing%20standards%20for%20bananas%2C%20rules%20on%20the%20verification,notifications%20in%20the%20banana%20sector

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
It may be that your sole purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others.

Dave

2024-12-15 11:35:41 UTC

Can it be taken that imports from the US and ROW never attracted these
heinous charges?

Irrelevant, we didn't "leave" the USA/ROW. Nor did the Leave campaign
explain the consequences of leaving when it came to matters such as
personal imports.

Let’s just be sure what we are saying. It is demonstrably the case that
many did not understand minimally the consequences of their vote

So whilst capable of deciding, far from competent to decide.

--
Dr Dave

Jeff Gaines

2024-12-15 11:55:57 UTC

Post by Jeff Gaines
Was it common for people to rely on being told the "consequences of
leaving"? Only adults had a vote so most of them would have been capable
of making their own decisions surely?

Let’s just be sure what we are saying. It is demonstrably the case that
many did not understand minimally the consequences of their vote
So whilst capable of deciding, far from competent to decide.

That is highly offensive to everybody who voted in the referendum. My
friends/colleague were perfectly competent to make their own decisions as
was/am I.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
All those who believe in psychokinesis raise my hand.

Roland Perry

2024-12-15 12:34:01 UTC

Let’s just be sure what we are saying. It is demonstrably the case that
many did not understand minimally the consequences of their vote
So whilst capable of deciding, far from competent to decide.

That is highly offensive to everybody who voted in the referendum. My
friends/colleague were perfectly competent to make their own decisions
as was/am I.

This isn't about *you*, but the vast majority of voters who aren't you.
And the lesson to be learned, and pressed home whenever similar votes
are taken in future, is that we need to take far more care to educate
the public about the consequences.

--
Roland Perry

Jeff Gaines

2024-12-15 13:02:05 UTC

Let’s just be sure what we are saying. It is demonstrably the case that
many did not understand minimally the consequences of their vote
So whilst capable of deciding, far from competent to decide.

That is highly offensive to everybody who voted in the referendum. My
friends/colleague were perfectly competent to make their own decisions as
was/am I.

This isn't about you, but the vast majority of voters who aren't you. And
the lesson to be learned, and pressed home whenever similar votes are
taken in future, is that we need to take far more care to educate the
public about the consequences.

I disagree. If people have the vote they must be deemed competent to
exercise it, only the communist party chooses candidates and tells people
who to vote for as far as I know.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home.
(Ken Olson, president Digital Equipment, 1977)

Roland Perry

2024-12-15 15:25:36 UTC

Let’s just be sure what we are saying. It is demonstrably the case that
many did not understand minimally the consequences of their vote
So whilst capable of deciding, far from competent to decide.

That is highly offensive to everybody who voted in the referendum. My
friends/colleague were perfectly competent to make their own
decisions as was/am I.

This isn't about you, but the vast majority of voters who aren't you.
And the lesson to be learned, and pressed home whenever similar votes
are taken in future, is that we need to take far more care to educate
the public about the consequences.

I disagree. If people have the vote they must be deemed competent to
exercise it,

Sadly, if you look at the reasons people vote for lots of things, that's
not especially true. I've met a lot of people who voted "Leave" to
reduce the Net Immigration figure, for example; when it turned out they
were actually voting against seasonal crop pickers - who don't show up
in the immigration statistics because they don't stay for more than a
year.

Post by Jeff Gaines
only the communist party chooses candidates

Most parties choose their list of candidates.

Post by Jeff Gaines
and tells people who to vote for as far as I know.

We were told recently to vote for Starmer vs Sunak, vs Farage, by the
parties they were leaders of.

--
Roland Perry

Ian Jackson

2024-12-15 23:38:18 UTC

Let’s just be sure what we are saying. It is demonstrably the case that
many did not understand minimally the consequences of their vote
So whilst capable of deciding, far from competent to decide.

That is highly offensive to everybody who voted in the referendum. My
friends/colleague were perfectly competent to make their own
decisions as was/am I.

This isn't about you, but the vast majority of voters who aren't you.
And the lesson to be learned, and pressed home whenever similar votes
are taken in future, is that we need to take far more care to educate
the public about the consequences.

I disagree. If people have the vote they must be deemed competent to
exercise it, only the communist party chooses candidates and tells
people who to vote for as far as I know.

Few of the people who were invited to vote in the Brexit referendum
really had sufficient competence to make a proper assessment of the real
pros and cons of EU membership.

Unfortunately, in the absence of the knowledge of - or interest in - all
the facts, it's very easy for opinions to be swayed if we're told that
'"We're getting a raw deal" - which was essentially what the Brexit
protagonists put about, and upon which a majority made their decision.

--
Ian
Aims and ambitions are neither attainments nor achievements

Jeff Gaines

2024-12-16 08:40:55 UTC

Let’s just be sure what we are saying. It is demonstrably the case that
many did not understand minimally the consequences of their vote
So whilst capable of deciding, far from competent to decide.

That is highly offensive to everybody who voted in the referendum. My
friends/colleague were perfectly competent to make their own decisions as
was/am I.

I disagree. If people have the vote they must be deemed competent to
exercise it, only the communist party chooses candidates and tells people
who to vote for as far as I know.

Few of the people who were invited to vote in the Brexit referendum really
had sufficient competence to make a proper assessment of the real pros and
cons of EU membership.
Unfortunately, in the absence of the knowledge of - or interest in - all
the facts, it's very easy for opinions to be swayed if we're told that
'"We're getting a raw deal" - which was essentially what the Brexit
protagonists put about, and upon which a majority made their decision.

It's very sad to see the offensive remarks continue but we voted to leave,
we left, it's over.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
There are 3 types of people in this world. Those who can count, and those
who can't.

Pamela

2024-12-15 23:04:19 UTC

Lets just be sure what we are saying. It is demonstrably the case
that many did not understand minimally the consequences of their
vote
So whilst capable of deciding, far from competent to decide.

That is highly offensive to everybody who voted in the referendum. My
friends/colleague were perfectly competent to make their own
decisions as was/am I.

This isn't about you, but the vast majority of voters who aren't you.
And the lesson to be learned, and pressed home whenever similar votes
are taken in future, is that we need to take far more care to educate
the public about the consequences.

I disagree. If people have the vote they must be deemed competent to
exercise it, only the communist party chooses candidates and tells
people who to vote for as far as I know.

The Electoral Commission advises that a lack of mental capacity is not a
legal incapacity to vote.

The Electoral Administration Act 2006 states in section 73:

"Abolition of common law incapacity: mental state. (1) Any rule of
the common law which provides that a person is subject to a legal
incapacity to vote by reason of his mental state is abolished."

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/22/section/73

I suspect many Brexit voters lacked mental capacity, if only because
they weren't sufficiently on guard against the incredible assurances
they were given by Leave-zealots.

JNugent

2024-12-15 16:06:20 UTC

Let’s just be sure what we are saying. It is demonstrably the case that
many did not understand minimally the consequences of their vote
So whilst capable of deciding, far from competent to decide.

That is highly offensive to everybody who voted in the referendum. My
friends/colleague were perfectly competent to make their own decisions
as was/am I.

...and to prevent any opposing views from being disseminated?

JNugent

2024-12-15 16:04:05 UTC

Let’s just be sure what we are saying. It is demonstrably the case that
many did not understand minimally the consequences of their vote
So whilst capable of deciding, far from competent to decide.

That is highly offensive to everybody who voted in the referendum. My
friends/colleague were perfectly competent to make their own decisions
as was/am I.

Wellm Dave says you weren't.

So obviously, that's... er... that.

IOW: "Know your place, plebs".

Max Demian

2024-12-15 11:44:16 UTC

Post by Spike
I voted against the European version of the Soviet Union, and there can’t
be too high a price on that.

Jolly good, you were perfectly entitled to that view. However, it's A
democracy and the majority was wafer-thin, with your reason hardly
showing up on the radar. People voted for trumped up reasons like bent
bananas and the false promise of more money for the NHS.

Come on, we're not going there again surely? I voted against the United
States of Europe as I'm sure did many others.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/
eur/2011/1333#:~:text=19%20December%202011-,laying%20down%20marketing%20standards%20for%20bananas%2C%20rules%20on%20the%20verification,notifications%20in%20the%20banana%20sector

73 references to bananas!

"ANNEX I
"Marketing standards for bananas

"...the bananas must be:

"- free from malformation or abnormal curvature of the fingers,"

(Among 14 requirements)

--
Max Demian

Roland Perry

2024-12-15 12:35:07 UTC

Post by Max Demian
"ANNEX I
"Marketing standards for bananas
"- free from malformation or abnormal curvature of the fingers,"
(Among 14 requirements)

That's not *all* bananas, just the top class ones. And in any event, how
is "abnormal" defined?

--
Roland Perry

Tim Jackson

2024-12-15 14:58:55 UTC

On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 12:35:07 +0000, Roland Perry wrote...

Post by Max Demian
"ANNEX I
"Marketing standards for bananas
"- free from malformation or abnormal curvature of the fingers,"
(Among 14 requirements)

That's not *all* bananas, just the top class ones.

And it only applies to bananas imported in bulk. It's a classification
scheme so that wholesalers and supermarket chains can specify what
quality of bananas they want, and don't have to inspect and choose them
as they are offloaded from the boat.

--
Tim Jackson
***@timjackson.invalid
(Change '.invalid' to '.plus.com' to reply direct)

Tim Jackson

2024-12-15 14:59:02 UTC

On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 11:44:16 +0000, Max Demian wrote...

Post by Jeff Gaines
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/
eur/2011/1333#:~:text=19%20December%202011-,laying%20down%20marketing%20standards%20for%20bananas%2C%20rules%20on%20the%20verification,notifications%20in%20the%20banana%20sector

Since Brexit, these EU regulations have been adopted into UK law. We
still classify bananas based on them.

--
Tim Jackson
***@timjackson.invalid
(Change '.invalid' to '.plus.com' to reply direct)

Jethro_uk

2024-12-15 15:01:10 UTC

Post by Tim Jackson
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 11:44:16 +0000, Max Demian wrote...

Post by Jeff Gaines
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/
eur/

2011/1333#:~:text=19%20December%202011-,laying%20down%20marketing%20standards%20for%20bananas%2C%20rules%20on%20the%20verification,notifications%20in%20the%20banana%20sector

Post by Tim Jackson
Since Brexit, these EU regulations have been adopted into UK law. We
still classify bananas based on them.

Plus tethered bottle caps
USB charging cables
Mandatory speed limiters.

Tim Jackson

2024-12-15 18:05:13 UTC

On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 15:01:10 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk wrote...

Post by Tim Jackson
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 11:44:16 +0000, Max Demian wrote...

Post by Jeff Gaines
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/
eur/

2011/1333#:~:text=19%20December%202011-,laying%20down%20marketing%20standards%20for%20bananas%2C%20rules%20on%20the%20verification,notifications%20in%20the%20banana%20sector

Post by Tim Jackson
Since Brexit, these EU regulations have been adopted into UK law. We
still classify bananas based on them.

Plus tethered bottle caps
USB charging cables
Mandatory speed limiters.

Yeah, but thanks to that nice Mr Sunak you can now buy wine in pint
bottles.

Oh, wait... Apparently you can only buy it in pint bottles if anybody
wanted to sell it in pint bottles.

--
Tim Jackson
***@timjackson.invalid
(Change '.invalid' to '.plus.com' to reply direct)

Martin Harran

2024-12-15 18:17:22 UTC

On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 18:05:13 -0000, Tim Jackson

Post by Tim Jackson
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 15:01:10 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk wrote...

Post by Tim Jackson
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 11:44:16 +0000, Max Demian wrote...

Post by Jeff Gaines
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/
eur/

2011/1333#:~:text=19%20December%202011-,laying%20down%20marketing%20standards%20for%20bananas%2C%20rules%20on%20the%20verification,notifications%20in%20the%20banana%20sector

Post by Tim Jackson
Since Brexit, these EU regulations have been adopted into UK law. We
still classify bananas based on them.

Plus tethered bottle caps
USB charging cables
Mandatory speed limiters.

What do you object to about those?

Post by Tim Jackson
Yeah, but thanks to that nice Mr Sunak you can now buy wine in pint
bottles.
Oh, wait... Apparently you can only buy it in pint bottles if anybody
wanted to sell it in pint bottles.

Tim Jackson

2024-12-15 19:00:46 UTC

On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 18:17:22 +0000, Martin Harran wrote...

Post by Martin Harran
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 18:05:13 -0000, Tim Jackson

Post by Tim Jackson
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 15:01:10 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk wrote...

Post by Tim Jackson
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 11:44:16 +0000, Max Demian wrote...

Post by Jeff Gaines
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/
eur/

2011/1333#:~:text=19%20December%202011-,laying%20down%20marketing%20standards%20for%20bananas%2C%20rules%20on%20the%20verification,notifications%20in%20the%20banana%20sector

Post by Tim Jackson
Since Brexit, these EU regulations have been adopted into UK law. We
still classify bananas based on them.

Plus tethered bottle caps
USB charging cables
Mandatory speed limiters.

What do you object to about those?

I don't.

--
Tim Jackson
***@timjackson.invalid
(Change '.invalid' to '.plus.com' to reply direct)

Roland Perry

2024-12-15 15:28:36 UTC

Post by Tim Jackson
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 11:44:16 +0000, Max Demian wrote...

Post by Jeff Gaines
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/

Post by Jeff Gaines
eur/2011/1333#:~:text=19%20December%202011-,laying%20down%20marketing%20standards%20for%20bananas%2C%20rules%20on%20the%20verification,notifications%20in%20the%20banana%20sector

Since Brexit, these EU regulations have been adopted into UK law. We
still classify bananas based on them.

I can imagine that there are millions of Leave voters who would be very
surprised to hear that, given they voted to "Take back control", not
"Carry on with lots of controls, especially one that featured so
strongly in the campaign".

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry

2024-12-15 12:31:59 UTC

Can it be taken that imports from the US and ROW never attracted these
heinous charges?

Irrelevant, we didn't "leave" the USA/ROW. Nor did the Leave campaign
explain the consequences of leaving when it came to matters such as
personal imports.

It is highly relevant in that on leaving the EU people should have
expected that its members became just another country and would be
treated as such.

Except almost nobody did realise that!

Except they were bamboozled by bent bananas, fake pictures of queues of
'asylum seekers' and so on.

Post by Jeff Gaines
I did, as I do for elections. No party has ever honoured election
promises in the way that people tend to interpret them so why listen to
them? Much more sensible to consider this party generally stand for
this, that party generally stand for that surely?

I think you'll find that the number painted on a bus was far more than
just an average "election promise".

I voted against the European version of the Soviet Union, and there
can’t be too high a price on that.

Jolly good, you were perfectly entitled to that view. However, it's A
democracy and the majority was wafer-thin, with your reason hardly
showing up on the radar. People voted for trumped up reasons like bent
bananas and the false promise of more money for the NHS.

Come on, we're not going there again surely? I voted against the United
States of Europe as I'm sure did many others.

Only a few percent. That doesn't make them wrong to have voted like
that, but in a democracy it's a lonely voice.

Post by Jeff Gaines
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2011/1333#:~:text=19%20December%20201
1-,laying%20down%20marketing%20standards%20for%20bananas%2C%20rules%20on
%20the%20verification,notifications%20in%20the%20banana%20sector

It's all about pests and pesticides, not the shape.

--
Roland Perry

Jeff Gaines

2024-12-15 15:41:23 UTC

Can it be taken that imports from the US and ROW never attracted these
heinous charges?

Irrelevant, we didn't "leave" the USA/ROW. Nor did the Leave campaign
explain the consequences of leaving when it came to matters such as
personal imports.

It is highly relevant in that on leaving the EU people should have
expected that its members became just another country and would be treated
as such.

Except almost nobody did realise that!

No idea why you say that and I don't believe it for one minute.

Except they were bamboozled by bent bananas, fake pictures of queues of
'asylum seekers' and so on.

Post by Jeff Gaines
I did, as I do for elections. No party has ever honoured election promises
in the way that people tend to interpret them so why listen to them? Much
more sensible to consider this party generally stand for this, that party
generally stand for that surely?

I think you'll find that the number painted on a bus was far more than
just an average "election promise".

But the number was wrong, far from getting an extra £350 million per week
it turned out to be £710 million:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-13304953/remainers-brexit-extra-350-nhs-ross-clark.html

I voted against the European version of the Soviet Union, and there
can’t be too high a price on that.

Come on, we're not going there again surely? I voted against the United
States of Europe as I'm sure did many others.

Only a few percent. That doesn't make them wrong to have voted like that,
but in a democracy it's a lonely voice.

Again I don't believe it.

Post by Jeff Gaines
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2011/1333#:~:text=19%20December%20201
1-,laying%20down%20marketing%20standards%20for%20bananas%2C%20rules%20on
%20the%20verification,notifications%20in%20the%20banana%20sector

It's all about pests and pesticides, not the shape.

The argument is usually about whether they exist or not, not what they
say. I certainly haven't read them!

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
All things being equal, fat people use more soap

Tim Jackson

2024-12-15 18:05:20 UTC

On 15 Dec 2024 15:41:23 GMT, Jeff Gaines wrote...

Post by Roland Perry
I think you'll find that the number painted on a bus was far more than
just an average "election promise".

But the number was wrong, far from getting an extra £350 million per week
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-13304953/remainers-brexit-extra-350-nhs-ross-clark.html

Quote: "The Daily Mail's claim that the NHS is receiving an extra 710
million a week from a Brexit dividend has been ruthlessly torn to shreds
by Peter Stefanovic."

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/mails-claim-that-the-nhs-is-
getting-710m-weekly-brexit-dividend-fact-checked-374418/

The 710 million didn't come from Brexit. NHS spending always goes up
every year anyway (new treatments, aging population, pandemics). The
question is whether Brexit means it has gone up more than it otherwise
would have done, and the answer is "no". The money has come from higher
taxes and cuts made elsewhere.

--
Tim Jackson
***@timjackson.invalid
(Change '.invalid' to '.plus.com' to reply direct)

Roland Perry

2024-12-16 06:11:13 UTC

Can it be taken that imports from the US and ROW never attracted these
heinous charges?

Irrelevant, we didn't "leave" the USA/ROW. Nor did the Leave
campaign explain the consequences of leaving when it came to matters
such as personal imports.

It is highly relevant in that on leaving the EU people should have
expected that its members became just another country and would be
treated as such.

Except almost nobody did realise that!

No idea why you say that and I don't believe it for one minute.

I say it because I've talked to lots of them, and that's what they tell
me. The more thoughtful ones are often the most disappointed to discover
they were hoodwinked, claiming that they should have been told about it
more explicitly by the Leave campaign - and had they known, might well
have voted "Remain" instead.

Except they were bamboozled by bent bananas, fake pictures of queues
of 'asylum seekers' and so on.

Post by Jeff Gaines
I did, as I do for elections. No party has ever honoured election
promises in the way that people tend to interpret them so why listen
to them? Much more sensible to consider this party generally stand
for this, that party generally stand for that surely?

I think you'll find that the number painted on a bus was far more than
just an average "election promise".

But the number was wrong, far from getting an extra £350 million per
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-13304953/remainers-brexit-ext
ra-350-nhs-ross-clark.html

What a magnificent bit of misinformation! Of course the NHS is getting
more, just as a result of inflation if nothing else. But if you believe
a penny of that is coming from a "Brexit dividend" I have a bridge for
sale.

I voted against the European version of the Soviet Union, and there
can’t be too high a price on that.

Jolly good, you were perfectly entitled to that view. However, it's
A democracy and the majority was wafer-thin, with your reason hardly
showing up on the radar. People voted for trumped up reasons like
bent bananas and the false promise of more money for the NHS.

Come on, we're not going there again surely? I voted against the
United States of Europe as I'm sure did many others.

Only a few percent. That doesn't make them wrong to have voted like
that, but in a democracy it's a lonely voice.

Again I don't believe it.

That's the problem, really. The most vociferous Brexiteers never believe
the plain simple truths. That's why they have to be reminded over and
over again.

Post by Jeff Gaines
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2011/1333#:~:text=19%20December%20201
1-,laying%20down%20marketing%20standards%20for%20bananas%2C%20rules%20on
%20the%20verification,notifications%20in%20the%20banana%20sector

It's all about pests and pesticides, not the shape.

The argument is usually about whether they exist or not, not what they
say.

OK, so you'll vote on the basis of a regulation existing, and not
because there's some [non-existent] provision of that regulation you
dislike? It was Boris lie, surprise surprise.

Post by Jeff Gaines
I certainly haven't read them!

That says it all, really!

--
Roland Perry

Jeff Gaines

2024-12-16 08:44:53 UTC

Post by Jeff Gaines
The argument is usually about whether they exist or not, not what they
say.

OK, so you'll vote on the basis of a regulation existing, and not because
there's some [non-existent] provision of that regulation you dislike? It
was Boris lie, surprise surprise.

Post by Jeff Gaines
I certainly haven't read them!

That says it all, really!

I voted based on my experience of living pre-EEC and after the USE started
to come into effect. The point I have tried to make several times is that
many people have said there were no regulations re bananas and clearly
there were.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
Those are my principles – and if you don’t like them, well, I have
others.
(Groucho Marx)

Roger Hayter

2024-12-15 16:59:14 UTC

Post by Jeff Gaines
snip
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2011/1333#:~:text=19%20December%20201
1-,laying%20down%20marketing%20standards%20for%20bananas%2C%20rules%20on
%20the%20verification,notifications%20in%20the%20banana%20sector

It's all about pests and pesticides, not the shape.

The argument is usually about whether they exist or not, not what they
say. I certainly haven't read them!

That seems a foolish argument, because if we don't have a centralised
bureaucracy to write regulations for a whole free trade area the only result
is that we have to use much more resources to write comparable regulations for
ourselves. Indeed, we have a whole new regulation scheme, although currently
it largely reproduces EU regs because they are better and cheaper than what we
have had time to write for ourselves. No one has seriously suggested that we
don't need wiring regulations, building regulations, goods quality regulations
etc. We even have our own version of the CE mark, though it seems unlikely any
major manufacterers will actually read our regs; more likely if they meet EU
and US regulations they can just assume they meet ours for our relatively tiny
market, and print our quality mark regardless.

--
Roger Hayter

Martin Harran

2024-12-15 15:00:03 UTC

Can it be taken that imports from the US and ROW never attracted these
heinous charges?

Irrelevant, we didn't "leave" the USA/ROW. Nor did the Leave campaign
explain the consequences of leaving when it came to matters such as
personal imports.

It is highly relevant in that on leaving the EU people should have
expected that its members became just another country and would be treated
as such.
Was it common for people to rely on being told the "consequences of
leaving"? Only adults had a vote so most of them would have been capable
of making their own decisions surely? I did, as I do for elections. No
party has ever honoured election promises in the way that people tend to
interpret them so why listen to them? Much more sensible to consider this
party generally stand for this, that party generally stand for that surely?

I voted against the European version of the Soviet Union, and there can’t
be too high a price on that.

Come on, we're not going there again surely? I voted against the United
States of Europe as I'm sure did many others.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2011/1333#:~:text=19%20December%202011-,laying%20down%20marketing%20standards%20for%20bananas%2C%20rules%20on%20the%20verification,notifications%20in%20the%20banana%20sector

Q? What part of those regulations to you find objectionable?

Q2: What part of those regulations has the UK government changed?

Jeff Gaines

2024-12-15 15:35:53 UTC

Post by Jeff Gaines
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2011/1333#:~:text=19%20December%202011-,laying%20down%20marketing%20standards%20for%20bananas%2C%20rules%20on%20the%20verification,notifications%20in%20the%20banana%20sector

Q? What part of those regulations to you find objectionable?
Q2: What part of those regulations has the UK government changed?

Don't know, don't care, haven't read them!

The argument is usually around whether or not such regulations exist and
clearly they do.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
You know it's cold outside when you go outside and it's cold.

Roland Perry

2024-12-15 16:03:19 UTC

Post by Jeff Gaines
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2011/1333#:~:text=19%20December%202
011-,laying%20down%20marketing%20standards%20for%20bananas%2C%20rules%
20on%20the%20verification,notifications%20in%20the%20banana%20sector

Q? What part of those regulations to you find objectionable?
Q2: What part of those regulations has the UK government changed?

Don't know, don't care, haven't read them!
The argument is usually around whether or not such regulations exist
and clearly they do.

But not a regulation which says "The EU has banned bent bananas", which
was the mantra Boris kept ramming down voters' thoats.

--
Roland Perry

Jeff Gaines

2024-12-15 16:53:01 UTC

Post by Jeff Gaines
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2011/1333#:~:text=19%20December%202
011-,laying%20down%20marketing%20standards%20for%20bananas%2C%20rules%
20on%20the%20verification,notifications%20in%20the%20banana%20sector

Q? What part of those regulations to you find objectionable?
Q2: What part of those regulations has the UK government changed?

Don't know, don't care, haven't read them!
The argument is usually around whether or not such regulations exist and
clearly they do.

But not a regulation which says "The EU has banned bent bananas", which
was the mantra Boris kept ramming down voters' thoats.

Come on, are you really taken in by marketing puff? You're a marketeer's
delight :-)

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
The first five days after the weekend are the hardest.

Martin Harran

2024-12-15 17:51:28 UTC

Post by Jeff Gaines
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2011/1333#:~:text=19%20December%202011-,laying%20down%20marketing%20standards%20for%20bananas%2C%20rules%20on%20the%20verification,notifications%20in%20the%20banana%20sector

Q? What part of those regulations to you find objectionable?
Q2: What part of those regulations has the UK government changed?

Don't know, don't care, haven't read them!

On the basis that you would know if there is something you don't like,
I take that as nothing and nothing.

So what part of "the United States of Europe" did you vote against?

Post by Jeff Gaines
The argument is usually around whether or not such regulations exist and
clearly they do.

I've never seen anyone claiming that the regulations didn't exist but
nobody could ever tell me what part of it they didn't like.

Jethro_uk

2024-12-15 17:57:19 UTC

Post by Martin Harran
I've never seen anyone claiming that the regulations didn't exist but
nobody could ever tell me what part of it they didn't like.

Like human rights.

Martin Harran

2024-12-15 18:16:24 UTC

On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 17:57:19 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by Martin Harran
I've never seen anyone claiming that the regulations didn't exist but
nobody could ever tell me what part of it they didn't like.

Like human rights.

You don't subscribe to the idea that human rights should be protected
in law?

Tim Jackson

2024-12-15 19:16:47 UTC

On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 18:16:24 +0000, Martin Harran wrote...

Post by Martin Harran
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 17:57:19 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by Martin Harran
I've never seen anyone claiming that the regulations didn't exist but
nobody could ever tell me what part of it they didn't like.

Like human rights.

You don't subscribe to the idea that human rights should be protected
in law?

I think Jethro's point is that people who say we should leave the ECHR
haven't read it.

As I'm sure you both know, nowhere does the ECHR explicitly mention
refugees. Nor does it say that we have to consider their applications
for asylum (that's the United Nations Refugee Convention).

However, it gives certain basic rights to all humans, including you and
me. Such as the right to life and freedom from torture. This means
that we can't return a refugee to their home country if that is what
they would face.

https://www.echr.coe.int/documents/d/echr/Simplified_Conv_ENG

--
Tim Jackson
***@timjackson.invalid
(Change '.invalid' to '.plus.com' to reply direct)

Jeff Gaines

2024-12-15 18:47:30 UTC

Post by Jeff Gaines
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2011/1333#:~:text=19%20December%202011-,laying%20down%20marketing%20standards%20for%20bananas%2C%20rules%20on%20the%20verification,notifications%20in%20the%20banana%20sector

Q? What part of those regulations to you find objectionable?
Q2: What part of those regulations has the UK government changed?

Don't know, don't care, haven't read them!

On the basis that you would know if there is something you don't like,
I take that as nothing and nothing.
So what part of "the United States of Europe" did you vote against?

The United States of Europe bit.

Post by Jeff Gaines
The argument is usually around whether or not such regulations exist and
clearly they do.

I've never seen anyone claiming that the regulations didn't exist but
nobody could ever tell me what part of it they didn't like.

Really? I've not seen anything else!

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists
or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies.

Martin Harran

2024-12-15 19:03:48 UTC

Post by Jeff Gaines
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2011/1333#:~:text=19%20December%202011-,laying%20down%20marketing%20standards%20for%20bananas%2C%20rules%20on%20the%20verification,notifications%20in%20the%20banana%20sector

Q? What part of those regulations to you find objectionable?
Q2: What part of those regulations has the UK government changed?

Don't know, don't care, haven't read them!

On the basis that you would know if there is something you don't like,
I take that as nothing and nothing.
So what part of "the United States of Europe" did you vote against?

The United States of Europe bit.

So you voted against it but you didn't quite know what you were voting
against. There seemed to be a lot of that about.

Post by Jeff Gaines
The argument is usually around whether or not such regulations exist and
clearly they do.

I've never seen anyone claiming that the regulations didn't exist but
nobody could ever tell me what part of it they didn't like.

Really? I've not seen anything else!

Jeff Gaines

2024-12-15 19:56:56 UTC

Post by Martin Harran
So what part of "the United States of Europe" did you vote against?

The United States of Europe bit.

So you voted against it but you didn't quite know what you were voting
against. There seemed to be a lot of that about.

I voted against becoming part of the USE, what don't you understand about
that?

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home.
(Ken Olson, president Digital Equipment, 1977)

Roger Hayter

2024-12-15 20:39:35 UTC

Post by Martin Harran
So what part of "the United States of Europe" did you vote against?

The United States of Europe bit.

So you voted against it but you didn't quite know what you were voting
against. There seemed to be a lot of that about.

I voted against becoming part of the USE, what don't you understand about
that?

Just that it seems totally irrational; if Hungary under Orban can stay in it
it can't be that restrictive of sovereignty. Not much like a political
dictatorship! And before long it looks like our choices will be EU or Russia.

--
Roger Hayter

Jeff Gaines

2024-12-15 21:54:16 UTC

Post by Martin Harran
So what part of "the United States of Europe" did you vote against?

The United States of Europe bit.

So you voted against it but you didn't quite know what you were voting
against. There seemed to be a lot of that about.

I voted against becoming part of the USE, what don't you understand about
that?

Clearly that's your opinion which is different to mine, are you suggesting
I am not entitled to vote as I see fit?

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
George Washington was a British subject until well after his 40th birthday.
(Margaret Thatcher, speech at the White House 17 December 1979)

Roger Hayter

2024-12-15 22:17:23 UTC

Post by Martin Harran
So what part of "the United States of Europe" did you vote against?

The United States of Europe bit.

So you voted against it but you didn't quite know what you were voting
against. There seemed to be a lot of that about.

I voted against becoming part of the USE, what don't you understand about
that?

Clearly that's your opinion which is different to mine, are you suggesting
I am not entitled to vote as I see fit?

Of course you are entitled. You asked the assembled group what they didn't
understand about it; and I answered, even though I was not the person
addressed. I'm certainly not trying to make you do anything.

--
Roger Hayter

Jeff Gaines

2024-12-16 08:46:49 UTC

Post by Martin Harran
So you voted against it but you didn't quite know what you were voting
against. There seemed to be a lot of that about.

I voted against becoming part of the USE, what don't you understand about
that?

Clearly that's your opinion which is different to mine, are you suggesting
I am not entitled to vote as I see fit?

I don't think I asked the assembled group any such thing?

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
If you ever find something you like buy a lifetime supply because they
will stop making it

Tim Jackson

2024-12-15 19:32:26 UTC

On 15 Dec 2024 18:47:30 GMT, Jeff Gaines wrote...

Post by Jeff Gaines
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2011/1333#:~:text=19%20December%202011-,laying%20down%20marketing%20standards%20for%20bananas%2C%20rules%20on%20the%20verification,notifications%20in%20the%20banana%20sector

Q? What part of those regulations to you find objectionable?
Q2: What part of those regulations has the UK government changed?

Don't know, don't care, haven't read them!

On the basis that you would know if there is something you don't like,
I take that as nothing and nothing.

[snip]

Post by Jeff Gaines
The argument is usually around whether or not such regulations exist and
clearly they do.

I've never seen anyone claiming that the regulations didn't exist but
nobody could ever tell me what part of it they didn't like.

Really? I've not seen anything else!

Maybe what you've seen is the incorrect information that they ban bendy
bananas.

Given that that misinformation came from Boris Johnson, you can be
forgiven for having got it wrong. But it's still wrong.

--
Tim Jackson
***@timjackson.invalid
(Change '.invalid' to '.plus.com' to reply direct)

Jeff Gaines

2024-12-15 19:57:51 UTC

Post by Jeff Gaines
The argument is usually around whether or not such regulations exist and
clearly they do.

I've never seen anyone claiming that the regulations didn't exist but
nobody could ever tell me what part of it they didn't like.

Really? I've not seen anything else!

Maybe what you've seen is the incorrect information that they ban bendy
bananas.
Given that that misinformation came from Boris Johnson, you can be
forgiven for having got it wrong. But it's still wrong.

No, what I've seen is a denial that the legislation exists which it
clearly does.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
The only thing necessary for evil to prevail is for good people to do or
say nothing. (Edmund Burke)

Roger Hayter

2024-12-15 20:41:38 UTC

Post by Jeff Gaines
The argument is usually around whether or not such regulations exist and
clearly they do.

I've never seen anyone claiming that the regulations didn't exist but
nobody could ever tell me what part of it they didn't like.

Really? I've not seen anything else!

Maybe what you've seen is the incorrect information that they ban bendy
bananas.
Given that that misinformation came from Boris Johnson, you can be
forgiven for having got it wrong. But it's still wrong.

No, what I've seen is a denial that the legislation exists which it
clearly does.

No one has denied it exists, just that it doesn't actually *ban* anything!

--
Roger Hayter

Jeff Gaines

2024-12-15 21:55:50 UTC

Post by Jeff Gaines
The argument is usually around whether or not such regulations exist and
clearly they do.

I've never seen anyone claiming that the regulations didn't exist but
nobody could ever tell me what part of it they didn't like.

Really? I've not seen anything else!

Maybe what you've seen is the incorrect information that they ban bendy
bananas.
Given that that misinformation came from Boris Johnson, you can be
forgiven for having got it wrong. But it's still wrong.

No, what I've seen is a denial that the legislation exists which it
clearly does.

No one has denied it exists, just that it doesn't actually ban anything!

As I said what I've seen is a denial that the legislation exists, how can
you possibly say that "No one has denied it exists"?

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
All things being equal, fat people use more soap

Roger Hayter

2024-12-15 22:24:52 UTC

Post by Jeff Gaines
The argument is usually around whether or not such regulations exist and
clearly they do.

I've never seen anyone claiming that the regulations didn't exist but
nobody could ever tell me what part of it they didn't like.

Really? I've not seen anything else!

Maybe what you've seen is the incorrect information that they ban bendy
bananas.
Given that that misinformation came from Boris Johnson, you can be
forgiven for having got it wrong. But it's still wrong.

No, what I've seen is a denial that the legislation exists which it
clearly does.

No one has denied it exists, just that it doesn't actually ban anything!

As I said what I've seen is a denial that the legislation exists, how can
you possibly say that "No one has denied it exists"?

Until you can provide a name or a quotation from someone who has denied that
regulations on the safety and quality of bananas exist in the EU I will
continue to assert with confidence that no one on this group has ever denied
they exist. If you mean the assertion that any particular shape of banana was
"banned" then, no, such a rule never existed. The very word "banned" is not
much used outside tabloid headlines.

--
Roger Hayter

Jeff Gaines

2024-12-16 08:49:54 UTC

Post by Tim Jackson
Given that that misinformation came from Boris Johnson, you can be
forgiven for having got it wrong. But it's still wrong.

No, what I've seen is a denial that the legislation exists which it
clearly does.

No one has denied it exists, just that it doesn't actually ban anything!

As I said what I've seen is a denial that the legislation exists, how can
you possibly say that "No one has denied it exists"?

You must be a solicitor, you are adding words into what I said. To be
clear I said:

" No, what I've seen is a denial that the legislation exists which it
clearly does."

You replied:

"I will continue to assert with confidence that no one on this group has
ever denied they exist."

See the difference?

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
Those are my principles – and if you don’t like them, well, I have
others.
(Groucho Marx)

Jon Ribbens

2024-12-15 23:09:25 UTC

Post by Jeff Gaines
The argument is usually around whether or not such regulations exist and
clearly they do.

I've never seen anyone claiming that the regulations didn't exist but
nobody could ever tell me what part of it they didn't like.

Really? I've not seen anything else!

Maybe what you've seen is the incorrect information that they ban bendy
bananas.
Given that that misinformation came from Boris Johnson, you can be
forgiven for having got it wrong. But it's still wrong.

No, what I've seen is a denial that the legislation exists which it
clearly does.

No one has denied it exists, just that it doesn't actually ban anything!

As I said what I've seen is a denial that the legislation exists, how can
you possibly say that "No one has denied it exists"?

EU legislation that bans bendy bananas does not exist. I would have
hoped it was obvious that you finding EU legislation that does not
ban bendy bananas does not disprove this statement, but here we are.

Jeff Gaines

2024-12-16 08:51:35 UTC

Post by Jon Ribbens

Post by Jeff Gaines
No, what I've seen is a denial that the legislation exists which it
clearly does.

No one has denied it exists, just that it doesn't actually ban anything!

As I said what I've seen is a denial that the legislation exists, how can
you possibly say that "No one has denied it exists"?

You too are adding words to what I said. I have not mentioned bendy
bananas anywhere.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
There are 10 types of people in the world, those who do binary and those
who don't.

Tim Jackson

2024-12-15 21:51:55 UTC

On 15 Dec 2024 19:57:51 GMT, Jeff Gaines wrote...

Post by Jeff Gaines
The argument is usually around whether or not such regulations exist and
clearly they do.

I've never seen anyone claiming that the regulations didn't exist but
nobody could ever tell me what part of it they didn't like.

Really? I've not seen anything else!

Maybe what you've seen is the incorrect information that they ban bendy
bananas.
Given that that misinformation came from Boris Johnson, you can be
forgiven for having got it wrong. But it's still wrong.

No, what I've seen is a denial that the legislation exists which it
clearly does.

Nobody denies that it exists. It just doesn't ban bendy bananas. It
says that they're not in the "Extra" class, but in Class I or Class II,
depending how bendy they are. (In the language of the regulation you
cited, depending on their "defects of shape" relative to the ideal.)

This is in Annex I of the regulation. It starts out in part II.A by
defining the minimum requirements for an ideal banana. This does indeed
say "free from abnormal curvature".

Boris saw that and then stopped reading. Certain newspapers lapped it
up.

But part II.A also says that this is "subject to the special provisions
for each class and the tolerances allowed".

So you need to read on to those special provisions for each class. They
are in part II.B "Classification".

There, you will see that the "Extra" class must be free from defects,
but that bananas with "defects of shape" fall into Class I or Class II,
depending how bendy they are.

And I'll repeat: These are classifications that we still use after
Brexit. They enable wholesalers and supermarket chains to specify the
quality they want when they buy bananas in bulk off the boat.

--
Tim Jackson
***@timjackson.invalid
(Change '.invalid' to '.plus.com' to reply direct)

Tim Jackson

2024-12-15 18:05:21 UTC

On 15 Dec 2024 15:35:53 GMT, Jeff Gaines wrote...

Post by Jeff Gaines
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2011/1333#:~:text=19%20December%202011-,laying%20down%20marketing%20standards%20for%20bananas%2C%20rules%20on%20the%20verification,notifications%20in%20the%20banana%20sector

Q? What part of those regulations to you find objectionable?
Q2: What part of those regulations has the UK government changed?

Don't know, don't care, haven't read them!

Evidently.

Post by Jeff Gaines
The argument is usually around whether or not such regulations exist and
clearly they do.

See my other posts. The UK still has the banana regulations after
Brexit. What they say is a sensible classification scheme which
benefits UK businesses. Bendy bananas are not banned, but "deformities
of shape" are one of a number of factors which affect the
classification.

--
Tim Jackson
***@timjackson.invalid
(Change '.invalid' to '.plus.com' to reply direct)

Spike

2024-12-15 12:03:33 UTC

Can it be taken that imports from the US and ROW never attracted these
heinous charges?

Irrelevant, we didn't "leave" the USA/ROW. Nor did the Leave campaign
explain the consequences of leaving when it came to matters such as
personal imports.

Well, you are now free to trade with the rest of the world at similar
costs, with all the benefit that extra choice brings, and not limit
yourself to just a small part of the world.

I voted against the European version of the Soviet Union, and there can’t
be too high a price on that.

As you said yourself, “It’s A democracy” and whinging about wafer-thin
majorities shows that you seem to accept only those democratic decisions
you agree with. One vote as a majority would have been enough, but Brexit
scored far more.

--
Spike

Tim Jackson

2024-12-15 16:06:17 UTC

On 15 Dec 2024 12:03:33 GMT, Spike wrote...

Post by Spike
Well, you are now free to trade with the rest of the world at similar
costs, with all the benefit that extra choice brings, and not limit
yourself to just a small part of the world.

We were always free to trade with the rest of the world. The reason the
costs are now similar is because we have made it more difficult to trade
with the EU.

--
Tim Jackson
***@timjackson.invalid
(Change '.invalid' to '.plus.com' to reply direct)

Les. Hayward

2024-12-15 10:16:10 UTC

Post by Spike
I voted against the European version of the Soviet Union, and there can’t
be too high a price on that.

Do you seriously suggest that half of the country voted because of bent
bananas & the like? Whatever the pros & cons of Brexit, I still regard
the issue of giving an organisation loads of your money in the hope that
they would allow you a bit back (but only to spend as THEY deem fit) was
insane.

Roland Perry

2024-12-15 15:19:38 UTC

Post by Spike
I voted against the European version of the Soviet Union, and there can’t
be too high a price on that.

Jolly good, you were perfectly entitled to that view. However, it's
A democracy and the majority was wafer-thin, with *your* reason
hardly showing up on the radar. People voted for trumped up reasons
like bent bananas and the false promise of more money for the NHS.

Do you seriously suggest that half of the country voted because of bent
bananas & the like?

Of course not. But sufficient voted because of a bunch of trumped up
reasons like, added together made the wafer-thin majority.

Post by Les. Hayward
Whatever the pros & cons of Brexit, I still regard the issue of giving
an organisation loads of your money in the hope that they would allow
you a bit back (but only to spend as THEY deem fit) was insane.

That's one of the things which didn't actually happen, so add that to
the misinformation list.

And I read the other day that Brexit has cost us more than the entire
contributions while we were a member of the EU. (It's unclear if that's
net or gross contributions, but either will do).

--
Roland Perry

Tim Jackson

2024-12-15 16:06:24 UTC

On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 10:16:10 +0000, Les. Hayward wrote...

Post by Les. Hayward
Do you seriously suggest that half of the country voted because of bent
bananas & the like? Whatever the pros & cons of Brexit, I still regard
the issue of giving an organisation loads of your money in the hope that
they would allow you a bit back (but only to spend as THEY deem fit) was
insane.

During the referendum campaign, Brexiters argued that strongly (numbers
on the side of a bus etc). Remainer politicians failed to counter it
effectively.

What we can now see is that the argument should have been in terms of
the benefits and costs to the UK economy as a whole, not just the
amounts paid and received by the Government.

Brexit is costing us an ongoing 4% of GDP, countered by an anticipated
0.5% gain as a result of new trade deals (CPTPP). This dwarfs the
Government-level figures many times over. We are poorer as a nation
than we otherwise would be.

--
Tim Jackson
***@timjackson.invalid
(Change '.invalid' to '.plus.com' to reply direct)

Spike

2024-12-15 16:45:06 UTC

Post by Tim Jackson
Brexit is costing us an ongoing 4% of GDP, countered by an anticipated
0.5% gain as a result of new trade deals (CPTPP). This dwarfs the
Government-level figures many times over. We are poorer as a nation
than we otherwise would be.

Following the example of Severn Trent Water, who gained circa £1.5bn extra
profit out of nothing more than an accounting technique, one suspects that
something similar could be done to turn the alleged 4% deficit into a 4%
surplus. Cui bono…and all that.

--
Spike

Pamela

2024-12-15 23:08:41 UTC

Post by Tim Jackson
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 10:16:10 +0000, Les. Hayward wrote...

Post by Les. Hayward
Do you seriously suggest that half of the country voted because of
bent bananas & the like? Whatever the pros & cons of Brexit, I still
regard the issue of giving an organisation loads of your money in the
hope that they would allow you a bit back (but only to spend as THEY
deem fit) was insane.

During the referendum campaign, Brexiters argued that strongly
(numbers on the side of a bus etc). Remainer politicians failed to
counter it effectively.
What we can now see is that the argument should have been in terms of
the benefits and costs to the UK economy as a whole, not just the
amounts paid and received by the Government.
Brexit is costing us an ongoing 4% of GDP, countered by an anticipated
0.5% gain as a result of new trade deals (CPTPP). This dwarfs the
Government-level figures many times over. We are poorer as a nation
than we otherwise would be.

Within a few years, that recurring nett loss of 3.5 percent of GDP is
going to cripple the UK just when when the money is most needed.

Ian Jackson

2024-12-15 23:09:27 UTC

In message <vjma9b$t5f4$***@solani.org>, Les. Hayward <***@nospam.invalid>
writes

Post by Spike
I voted against the European version of the Soviet Union, and there can’t
be too high a price on that.

Jolly good, you were perfectly entitled to that view. However, it's
A democracy and the majority was wafer-thin, with *your* reason
hardly showing up on the radar. People voted for trumped up reasons
like bent bananas and the false promise of more money for the NHS.

Do you seriously suggest that half of the country voted because of bent
bananas & the like?

I doubt if "half the country" did, but it's almost certain that enough
did - and that tripped the majority into over the 50% required to leave.

After it turned out that the vote was for Brexit, the first six friends
whom I discussed things with all initially said that they had voted to
leave because of things like silly rules about bananas.

I can't quote actual figures, but I understand that we're now paying
dearly for the savings we make by not needing to subscribe to the EU.

--
Ian
Aims and ambitions are neither attainments nor achievements

Spike

2024-12-15 16:04:24 UTC

Post by Spike
I voted against the European version of the Soviet Union, and there can’t
be too high a price on that.

The ‘bent banana’ non-issue is one method used by Remainers when attempting
to trivialise the reasons for supporting Brexit and by doing so undermine
the authority of the vote in favour. Other such topics have also been used,
ad nauseam since the vote.

--
Spike

JNugent

2024-12-15 15:59:00 UTC

Post by Spike
I voted against the European version of the Soviet Union, and there
can’t be too high a price on that.

Indeed.

And the signage attached to the prohject would read "paid for by the EU"
(or words to that effect).

Norman Wells

2024-12-14 20:32:23 UTC

Well, why should I be *un*happy about it? You're paying your UK taxes.

Which is a good thing for everyone else, I'd have thought.

Clive Page

2024-12-15 18:55:39 UTC