Parking at 'closed' bus stop

[Ian Jackson]

A friend recently got a fine for parking at a 'closed' bus stop.

He is disabled, and has a 'blue badge' - and he assumed that as the bus
stop was closed, it would be OK to park there, on the double yellow
lines.

On the bus stop pole are two notices. At the top, one covers up the
original bus stop sign, and lower down is another (much larger) which
includes a figure standing beside a bus stop, with a diagonal line
through it. They both look pretty permanent. Both clearly say "Bus stop
closed". However, there is also the (presumably) original sign, "No
stopping at any time except buses".

After looking at several web forums it seems that the general opinion is
that bus stops are the 'Holy of Holies', and the full weight of the law
will be applied to any driver who dares even to pause there for a few
seconds - even in the dead of night and when there is unlikely to be an
operational bus within 100 miles.

He has queried the fine, but (of course) they've come back telling him
he has to pay. But what is the real legal situation? Which signs
actually take presidency? And if you ARE forbidden even to stop
momentarily at a closed (or suspended or whatever) bus stop, what is the
logic in this?

[Colin Bignell]

Post by Ian Jackson
A friend recently got a fine for parking at a 'closed' bus stop.
He is disabled, and has a 'blue badge' - and he assumed that as the bus
stop was closed, it would be OK to park there, on the double yellow lines.
On the bus stop pole are two notices. At the top, one covers up the
original bus stop sign, and lower down is another (much larger) which
includes a figure standing beside a bus stop, with a diagonal line
through it. They both look pretty permanent. Both clearly say "Bus stop
closed". However, there is also the (presumably) original sign, "No
stopping at any time except buses".
After looking at several web forums it seems that the general opinion is
that bus stops are the 'Holy of Holies', and the full weight of the law
will be applied to any driver who dares even to pause there for a few
seconds - even in the dead of night and when there is unlikely to be an
operational bus within 100 miles.
He has queried the fine, but (of course) they've come back telling him
he has to pay. But what is the real legal situation? Which signs
actually take presidency? And if you ARE forbidden even to stop
momentarily at a closed (or suspended or whatever) bus stop, what is the
logic in this?

The no stopping at any time restriction would be imposed by a traffic
order. Suspending the bus stop does not also suspend the traffic order.
So, although there may appear to be no reason for it, the restriction
will apply unless or until the traffic order is revoked. If the bus stop
suspension is only temporary, that is not likely to happen. If in doubt,
believe the signs is always a good principle to follow.

[Jethro_uk]

Post by Colin Bignell

Post by Ian Jackson
A friend recently got a fine for parking at a 'closed' bus stop.
He is disabled, and has a 'blue badge' - and he assumed that as the bus
stop was closed, it would be OK to park there, on the double yellow lines.
On the bus stop pole are two notices. At the top, one covers up the
original bus stop sign, and lower down is another (much larger) which
includes a figure standing beside a bus stop, with a diagonal line
through it. They both look pretty permanent. Both clearly say "Bus stop
closed". However, there is also the (presumably) original sign, "No
stopping at any time except buses".
After looking at several web forums it seems that the general opinion
is that bus stops are the 'Holy of Holies', and the full weight of the
law will be applied to any driver who dares even to pause there for a
few seconds - even in the dead of night and when there is unlikely to
be an operational bus within 100 miles.
He has queried the fine, but (of course) they've come back telling him
he has to pay. But what is the real legal situation? Which signs
actually take presidency? And if you ARE forbidden even to stop
momentarily at a closed (or suspended or whatever) bus stop, what is
the logic in this?

The no stopping at any time restriction would be imposed by a traffic
order. Suspending the bus stop does not also suspend the traffic order.
So, although there may appear to be no reason for it, the restriction
will apply unless or until the traffic order is revoked. If the bus stop
suspension is only temporary, that is not likely to happen. If in doubt,
believe the signs is always a good principle to follow.

In addition the guidance given with BBs is that you are still required to
comply with any other restrictions in force.

[Ian Jackson]

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by Colin Bignell

Post by Ian Jackson
A friend recently got a fine for parking at a 'closed' bus stop.
He is disabled, and has a 'blue badge' - and he assumed that as the bus
stop was closed, it would be OK to park there, on the double yellow lines.
On the bus stop pole are two notices. At the top, one covers up the
original bus stop sign, and lower down is another (much larger) which
includes a figure standing beside a bus stop, with a diagonal line
through it. They both look pretty permanent. Both clearly say "Bus stop
closed". However, there is also the (presumably) original sign, "No
stopping at any time except buses".
After looking at several web forums it seems that the general opinion
is that bus stops are the 'Holy of Holies', and the full weight of the
law will be applied to any driver who dares even to pause there for a
few seconds - even in the dead of night and when there is unlikely to
be an operational bus within 100 miles.
He has queried the fine, but (of course) they've come back telling him
he has to pay. But what is the real legal situation? Which signs
actually take presidency? And if you ARE forbidden even to stop
momentarily at a closed (or suspended or whatever) bus stop, what is
the logic in this?

The no stopping at any time restriction would be imposed by a traffic
order. Suspending the bus stop does not also suspend the traffic order.
So, although there may appear to be no reason for it, the restriction
will apply unless or until the traffic order is revoked. If the bus stop
suspension is only temporary, that is not likely to happen. If in doubt,
believe the signs is always a good principle to follow.

In addition the guidance given with BBs is that you are still required to
comply with any other restrictions in force.

Understood. But the only reason the "No stopping at any time except
buses" sign is there is probably because it a bus stop - and the bus
stop is closed (not just suspended). On the other hand, I don't know the
bus stop in question, and it may be that "No stopping at any time"
applies generally to the whole of road (and there may be more signs
either side of the bus stop) - in which case the fine will be justified.

[Theo]

Post by Ian Jackson
Understood. But the only reason the "No stopping at any time except
buses" sign is there is probably because it a bus stop - and the bus
stop is closed (not just suspended). On the other hand, I don't know the
bus stop in question, and it may be that "No stopping at any time"
applies generally to the whole of road (and there may be more signs
either side of the bus stop) - in which case the fine will be justified.

One point is that bus stops are not just for buses stopping. For example,
in some places buses layover for driver changes, waiting to join their
route, park for a return later in the day, maybe wait for a bay to become
free in the bus station, etc.

The buses park up in what may be marked as a bus stop, but it's not possible
to board or alight from the bus there. Therefore the bus stop is 'closed'
(there are zero services from that bay) but it is still used operationally
for buses, and a car parking there would impede their operations.

Theo

[JNugent]

Post by Theo

Post by Ian Jackson
Understood. But the only reason the "No stopping at any time except
buses" sign is there is probably because it a bus stop - and the bus
stop is closed (not just suspended). On the other hand, I don't know the
bus stop in question, and it may be that "No stopping at any time"
applies generally to the whole of road (and there may be more signs
either side of the bus stop) - in which case the fine will be justified.

One point is that bus stops are not just for buses stopping. For example,
in some places buses layover for driver changes, waiting to join their
route, park for a return later in the day, maybe wait for a bay to become
free in the bus station, etc.
The buses park up in what may be marked as a bus stop, but it's not possible
to board or alight from the bus there. Therefore the bus stop is 'closed'
(there are zero services from that bay) but it is still used operationally
for buses, and a car parking there would impede their operations.

Gawd... I hope the bus companies never do that with the bus-stop across
the bottom of my drive.

[Jethro_uk]

Post by Ian Jackson

[quoted text muted]

Understood. But the only reason the "No stopping at any time except
buses"
sign is there is probably because it a bus stop - and the bus stop is
closed (not just suspended).

You have made the schoolboy error of assuming laws, rules and regulations
are based on a degree of logicality.

[JNugent]

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by Colin Bignell

Post by Ian Jackson
A friend recently got a fine for parking at a 'closed' bus stop.
He is disabled, and has a 'blue badge' - and he assumed that as the bus
stop was closed, it would be OK to park there, on the double yellow lines.
On the bus stop pole are two notices. At the top, one covers up the
original bus stop sign, and lower down is another (much larger) which
includes a figure standing beside a bus stop, with a diagonal line
through it. They both look pretty permanent. Both clearly say "Bus stop
closed". However, there is also the (presumably) original sign, "No
stopping at any time except buses".
After looking at several web forums it seems that the general opinion
is that bus stops are the 'Holy of Holies', and the full weight of the
law will be applied to any driver who dares even to pause there for a
few seconds - even in the dead of night and when there is unlikely to
be an operational bus within 100 miles.
He has queried the fine, but (of course) they've come back telling him
he has to pay. But what is the real legal situation? Which signs
actually take presidency? And if you ARE forbidden even to stop
momentarily at a closed (or suspended or whatever) bus stop, what is
the logic in this?

The no stopping at any time restriction would be imposed by a traffic
order. Suspending the bus stop does not also suspend the traffic order.
So, although there may appear to be no reason for it, the restriction
will apply unless or until the traffic order is revoked. If the bus stop
suspension is only temporary, that is not likely to happen. If in doubt,
believe the signs is always a good principle to follow.

In addition the guidance given with BBs is that you are still required to
comply with any other restrictions in force.

Understood. But the only reason the "No stopping at any time except
buses" sign is there is probably because it a bus stop - and the bus
stop is closed (not just suspended).

Yes, but such signs apply 24/7 (ie, even during the six hours or so
where there will be no buses arriving). It isn't up to an individual to
second guess the situation.

Post by Ian Jackson
On the other hand, I don't know the
bus stop in question, and it may be that "No stopping at any time"
applies generally to the whole of road (and there may be more signs
either side of the bus stop) - in which case the fine will be justified.

[[e-mail]]

SNIP

Post by Ian Jackson
Understood. But the only reason the "No stopping at any time except
buses" sign is there is probably because it a bus stop - and the bus
stop is closed (not just suspended). On the other hand, I don't know the
bus stop in question, and it may be that "No stopping at any time"
applies generally to the whole of road (and there may be more signs
either side of the bus stop) - in which case the fine will be justified.
--
Ian

In Manchester they are marked with a Clearway symbol and "No Stopping at any Time except buses", so that is the restriction.
https://goo.gl/maps/sa2t9hnZ9oVeznqs8

Maybe the closure would be lifted after a short period and the warden had no idea how long the car might remain for.

[Jethro_uk]

Post by Colin Bignell

Post by Ian Jackson
A friend recently got a fine for parking at a 'closed' bus stop.
He is disabled, and has a 'blue badge' - and he assumed that as the bus
stop was closed, it would be OK to park there, on the double yellow lines.
On the bus stop pole are two notices. At the top, one covers up the
original bus stop sign, and lower down is another (much larger) which
includes a figure standing beside a bus stop, with a diagonal line
through it. They both look pretty permanent. Both clearly say "Bus stop
closed". However, there is also the (presumably) original sign, "No
stopping at any time except buses".
After looking at several web forums it seems that the general opinion
is that bus stops are the 'Holy of Holies', and the full weight of the
law will be applied to any driver who dares even to pause there for a
few seconds - even in the dead of night and when there is unlikely to
be an operational bus within 100 miles.
He has queried the fine, but (of course) they've come back telling him
he has to pay. But what is the real legal situation? Which signs
actually take presidency? And if you ARE forbidden even to stop
momentarily at a closed (or suspended or whatever) bus stop, what is
the logic in this?

The no stopping at any time restriction would be imposed by a traffic
order. Suspending the bus stop does not also suspend the traffic order.
So, although there may appear to be no reason for it, the restriction
will apply unless or until the traffic order is revoked. If the bus stop
suspension is only temporary, that is not likely to happen. If in doubt,
believe the signs is always a good principle to follow.

In addition the guidance given with BBs is that you are still required to
comply with any other restrictions in force.

[David McNeish]

Post by Ian Jackson
He has queried the fine, but (of course) they've come back telling him
he has to pay. But what is the real legal situation? Which signs
actually take presidency? And if you ARE forbidden even to stop
momentarily at a closed (or suspended or whatever) bus stop, what is the
logic in this?

Did you friend think closed bus stops impliedly become legitimate parking
spaces? Where has he heard that from?

The relevant traffic regulation order remains in place - the temporary
signage is to tell passengers the bus isn't stopping there, not to invite
cars to park there.

[Ian Jackson]

Post by David McNeish

Post by Ian Jackson
He has queried the fine, but (of course) they've come back telling him
he has to pay. But what is the real legal situation? Which signs
actually take presidency? And if you ARE forbidden even to stop
momentarily at a closed (or suspended or whatever) bus stop, what is the
logic in this?

Did you friend think closed bus stops impliedly become legitimate parking
spaces? Where has he heard that from?

He has a blue badge, and can usually park on double yellow lines. If the
bus stop is closed, apart from it being 'the law', there is little
practical reason not to park on the double yellow lines at the bus stop
(except for the "No stopping at any time except buses" sign which is
probably only there because it was previously an 'active' bus stop).

Post by David McNeish
The relevant traffic regulation order remains in place - the temporary
signage is to tell passengers the bus isn't stopping there, not to invite
cars to park there.

If the "No stopping at any time except buses" only applied to the bus
stop, would it have been better if he had parked out on the road, a few
yards past the bus stop?

[David McNeish]

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by David McNeish

Post by Ian Jackson
He has queried the fine, but (of course) they've come back telling him
he has to pay. But what is the real legal situation? Which signs
actually take presidency? And if you ARE forbidden even to stop
momentarily at a closed (or suspended or whatever) bus stop, what is the
logic in this?

Did you friend think closed bus stops impliedly become legitimate parking
spaces? Where has he heard that from?

He has a blue badge, and can usually park on double yellow lines. If the
bus stop is closed, apart from it being 'the law', there is little
practical reason not to park on the double yellow lines at the bus stop
(except for the "No stopping at any time except buses" sign which is
probably only there because it was previously an 'active' bus stop).

Post by David McNeish
The relevant traffic regulation order remains in place - the temporary
signage is to tell passengers the bus isn't stopping there, not to invite
cars to park there.

If the "No stopping at any time except buses" only applied to the bus
stop, would it have been better if he had parked out on the road, a few
yards past the bus stop?

Assuming it is otherwise legal for him to park there, yes.

He should have a guidance leaflet explaining where he's allowed to park
with a blue badge - I doubt that includes suspended bus stops.

[[e-mail]]

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by David McNeish

Post by Ian Jackson
He has queried the fine, but (of course) they've come back telling him
he has to pay. But what is the real legal situation? Which signs
actually take presidency? And if you ARE forbidden even to stop
momentarily at a closed (or suspended or whatever) bus stop, what is the
logic in this?

Did you friend think closed bus stops impliedly become legitimate parking
spaces? Where has he heard that from?

He has a blue badge, and can usually park on double yellow lines.

He probably can, [urban] clearways are marked with a single WIDE yellow line.

Post by Ian Jackson
If the
bus stop is closed, apart from it being 'the law', there is little
practical reason not to park on the double yellow lines at the bus stop
(except for the "No stopping at any time except buses" sign which is
probably only there because it was previously an 'active' bus stop).

Post by David McNeish
The relevant traffic regulation order remains in place - the temporary
signage is to tell passengers the bus isn't stopping there, not to invite
cars to park there.

If the "No stopping at any time except buses" only applied to the bus
stop, would it have been better if he had parked out on the road, a few
yards past the bus stop?

Obviously.

Post by Ian Jackson
--
Ian

Whilst the legal position is IMO clear, it was a jobsworth of a warden who put a ticket on a blue badged car parked on a closed bus stop.

If the road marking was not a single wide line then an appeal might succeed as the marking was incorrect.

Here in Manchester some of wardens are even more stupid than that: -
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/parking-ticket-slapped-on-bus-1138900
on a bus stop!

[Colin Bignell]

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by David McNeish

Post by Ian Jackson
He has queried the fine, but (of course) they've come back telling him
he has to pay. But what is the real legal situation? Which signs
actually take presidency? And if you ARE forbidden even to stop
momentarily at a closed (or suspended or whatever) bus stop, what is the
logic in this?

Did you friend think closed bus stops impliedly become legitimate parking
spaces? Where has he heard that from?

He has a blue badge, and can usually park on double yellow lines. If the
bus stop is closed, apart from it being 'the law', there is little
practical reason not to park on the double yellow lines at the bus stop
(except for the "No stopping at any time except buses" sign which is
probably only there because it was previously an 'active' bus stop).

If it has that sign, a bus stop will usually have a broad yellow line,
rather than double yellow lines and a Blue Badge does not permit
parking, or even stopping, on those.

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by David McNeish
The relevant traffic regulation order remains in place - the temporary
signage is to tell passengers the bus isn't stopping there, not to invite
cars to park there.

If the "No stopping at any time except buses" only applied to the bus
stop, would it have been better if he had parked out on the road, a few
yards past the bus stop?

That depends upon what restrictions applied there and whether or not
parking there would constitute obstruction or endanger other vehicles.

[[e-mail]]

Post by Ian Jackson
A friend recently got a fine for parking at a 'closed' bus stop.
He is disabled, and has a 'blue badge' - and he assumed that as the bus
stop was closed, it would be OK to park there, on the double yellow
lines.
On the bus stop pole are two notices. At the top, one covers up the
original bus stop sign, and lower down is another (much larger) which
includes a figure standing beside a bus stop, with a diagonal line
through it. They both look pretty permanent. Both clearly say "Bus stop
closed". However, there is also the (presumably) original sign, "No
stopping at any time except buses".
After looking at several web forums it seems that the general opinion is
that bus stops are the 'Holy of Holies', and the full weight of the law
will be applied to any driver who dares even to pause there for a few
seconds - even in the dead of night and when there is unlikely to be an
operational bus within 100 miles.
He has queried the fine, but (of course) they've come back telling him
he has to pay. But what is the real legal situation? Which signs
actually take presidency? And if you ARE forbidden even to stop
momentarily at a closed (or suspended or whatever) bus stop, what is the
logic in this?
--
Ian

The bus stop is an "urban clearway". There are lots in Manchester, even where there are no other waiting restrictions. If you stop without cause (e.g. breakdown) on a clearway you can get a ticket.

Normal bus stops are not clearways, so they are only covered by any waiting restrictions in force and the Highway Code guidance "do not park" (there used to be times - 19:30 - 07:30 IIRC).

[JNugent]

Post by ***@gmail.com

Post by Ian Jackson
A friend recently got a fine for parking at a 'closed' bus stop.
He is disabled, and has a 'blue badge' - and he assumed that as the bus
stop was closed, it would be OK to park there, on the double yellow
lines.
On the bus stop pole are two notices. At the top, one covers up the
original bus stop sign, and lower down is another (much larger) which
includes a figure standing beside a bus stop, with a diagonal line
through it. They both look pretty permanent. Both clearly say "Bus stop
closed". However, there is also the (presumably) original sign, "No
stopping at any time except buses".
After looking at several web forums it seems that the general opinion is
that bus stops are the 'Holy of Holies', and the full weight of the law
will be applied to any driver who dares even to pause there for a few
seconds - even in the dead of night and when there is unlikely to be an
operational bus within 100 miles.
He has queried the fine, but (of course) they've come back telling him
he has to pay. But what is the real legal situation? Which signs
actually take presidency? And if you ARE forbidden even to stop
momentarily at a closed (or suspended or whatever) bus stop, what is the
logic in this?
--
Ian

The bus stop is an "urban clearway". There are lots in Manchester, even where there are no other waiting restrictions. If you stop without cause (e.g. breakdown) on a clearway you can get a ticket.

We have to stop in such a bus-stop outside this house. But with reason -
in order to reverse in. I prefer to drive in and reverse out.

Post by ***@gmail.com
Normal bus stops are not clearways, so they are only covered by any waiting restrictions in force and the Highway Code guidance "do not park" (there used to be times - 19:30 - 07:30 IIRC).

[JNugent]

Post by Ian Jackson
A friend recently got a fine for parking at a 'closed' bus stop.
He is disabled, and has a 'blue badge' - and he assumed that as the bus
stop was closed, it would be OK to park there, on the double yellow lines.

A less than wise assumption, if I may say so.

Post by Ian Jackson
On the bus stop pole are two notices. At the top, one covers up the
original bus stop sign, and lower down is another (much larger) which
includes a figure standing beside a bus stop, with a diagonal line
through it. They both look pretty permanent. Both clearly say "Bus stop
closed". However, there is also the (presumably) original sign, "No
stopping at any time except buses".

There is still the matter of the double yellow lines (presumably
complying with layout regulations).

"No stopping* at any time except buses" seems clear enough.

[A stronger injunction than "No waiting"]

All the "Bus stop closed" sign meant was that for the time being at
least, there weren't going to be any buses stopping. It didn't authorise
anyone else to stop and stopping (much less "waiting", a/k/a parking)
remains an offence.

Post by Ian Jackson
After looking at several web forums it seems that the general opinion is
that bus stops are the 'Holy of Holies', and the full weight of the law
will be applied to any driver who dares even to pause there for a few
seconds - even in the dead of night and when there is unlikely to be an
operational bus within 100 miles.

There's a modern bus stop outside my house (the type with the raised
step and the very wide single yellow line). I was consulted over its
position and length.

Post by Ian Jackson
He has queried the fine, but (of course) they've come back telling him
he has to pay. But what is the real legal situation? Which signs
actually take presidency? And if you ARE forbidden even to stop
momentarily at a closed (or suspended or whatever) bus stop, what is the
logic in this?

The logic is twofold. First, it stops people parking at the bus stop
(and walking away) so that buses can stop there. Secondly, it stops
people hanging around in a vehicle at the bus stop, perhaps waiting for
a passenger coming on a bus. This applies even overnight, when there are
(of course) no buses.

A side benefit is that the strict enforcement is good for householders
whose drives open out onto the road across such a bus stop. At last, one
can be reasonably certain that no-one will park across, or partially
obstructing, the driveway.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Ian Jackson
After looking at several web forums it seems that the general opinion
is that bus stops are the 'Holy of Holies', and the full weight of the
law will be applied to any driver who dares even to pause there for a
few seconds - even in the dead of night and when there is unlikely to
be an operational bus within 100 miles.

I remember a friend in the 70's getting a parking ticket on a Sunday
(who was issuing them?) at a bus sop on a route where there was no
Sunday service.

[Stuart O. Bronstein]

Post by Roland Perry
I remember a friend in the 70's getting a parking ticket on a Sunday
(who was issuing them?) at a bus sop on a route where there was no
Sunday service.

Bureaucrats will bureaucrat.

[David McNeish]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Ian Jackson
After looking at several web forums it seems that the general opinion
is that bus stops are the 'Holy of Holies', and the full weight of the
law will be applied to any driver who dares even to pause there for a
few seconds - even in the dead of night and when there is unlikely to
be an operational bus within 100 miles.

I remember a friend in the 70's getting a parking ticket on a Sunday
(who was issuing them?) at a bus sop on a route where there was no
Sunday service.

Bus stops are (usually) legitimate places for all buses to stop, not just
the local scheduled service. I expect that's not relevant for the vast
majority of bus stops, but it will be for some.

[Stuart O. Bronstein]

Post by David McNeish

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Ian Jackson
After looking at several web forums it seems that the general
opinion is that bus stops are the 'Holy of Holies', and the full
weight of the law will be applied to any driver who dares even
to pause there for a few seconds - even in the dead of night and
when there is unlikely to be an operational bus within 100
miles.

I remember a friend in the 70's getting a parking ticket on a
Sunday (who was issuing them?) at a bus sop on a route where
there was no Sunday service.

Bus stops are (usually) legitimate places for all buses to stop,
not just the local scheduled service. I expect that's not relevant
for the vast majority of bus stops, but it will be for some.

In my area there are 28 different public transit organizations. One
may not use a particular bus stop on a particular day, but others
certainly might.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Stuart O. Bronstein

Post by David McNeish

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Ian Jackson
After looking at several web forums it seems that the general
opinion is that bus stops are the 'Holy of Holies', and the full
weight of the law will be applied to any driver who dares even
to pause there for a few seconds - even in the dead of night and
when there is unlikely to be an operational bus within 100
miles.

I remember a friend in the 70's getting a parking ticket on a
Sunday (who was issuing them?) at a bus sop on a route where
there was no Sunday service.

Bus stops are (usually) legitimate places for all buses to stop,
not just the local scheduled service. I expect that's not relevant
for the vast majority of bus stops, but it will be for some.

In my area there are 28 different public transit organizations. One
may not use a particular bus stop on a particular day, but others
certainly might.

Back in the 70's there was just the one bus company serving that High
St, and they didn't run on Sundays.