Discussion:
How safe are deposits with Revolut and Wise?
(too old to reply)
Ben
2022-12-07 06:06:06 UTC
Permalink
Was reading this article:
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-63796738
'I had £8,000 stolen but Revolut won't refund it'

I use both "banks" (I believe Revolut doesn't have a UK banking license, and Wise is technically an EMI).

How safe are deposits with them?

Are they covered by the Financial Services Compensation Scheme?

Can complaints about them be handled by the Financial Ombudsman?
Dr Dave
2022-12-07 06:29:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-63796738
'I had £8,000 stolen but Revolut won't refund it'
I use both "banks" (I believe Revolut doesn't have a UK banking license, and Wise is technically an EMI).
How safe are deposits with them?
Are they covered by the Financial Services Compensation Scheme?
Can complaints about them be handled by the Financial Ombudsman?
I don’t know the answer to your question but it seems that other more conventional accounts might give you less headaches - especially if you have large amounts of money deposited.

Why do you want the hassle of having to find the answers to those questions.

In terms of risk/benefit, where does the benefits of commission free currency trading sit against the potential impact of fraud?
Ben
2022-12-07 06:44:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr Dave
Post by Ben
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-63796738
'I had £8,000 stolen but Revolut won't refund it'
I use both "banks" (I believe Revolut doesn't have a UK banking license, and Wise is technically an EMI).
How safe are deposits with them?
Are they covered by the Financial Services Compensation Scheme?
Can complaints about them be handled by the Financial Ombudsman?
I don’t know the answer to your question but it seems that other more conventional accounts might give you less headaches - especially if you have large amounts of money deposited.
Why do you want the hassle of having to find the answers to those questions.
In terms of risk/benefit, where does the benefits of commission free currency trading sit against the potential impact of fraud?
When I accepted my job offer as an expat abroad, I closed all my UK bank accounts because I had heard horror stories of forgotten accounts going negative and accruing all manner of charges until you owe them an arm and a leg.

May have been hasty, but the status quo is that although I am a British citizen, I am not resident in the UK and don't have a UK address. I don't believe it is possible to open a UK bank account, remotely, under the circumstances?

Things have changed a bit since then and I realise it would have been helpful to have a UK bank account for some UK-related matters.

As for visiting the UK just to open one, I'd rather spend my off time in other places. Something urgent may bring me back to the UK (such as family illness) but fortunately there has been no need to as yet.
Martin Brown
2022-12-07 10:30:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-63796738 'I had £8,000 stolen
but Revolut won't refund it'
I use both "banks" (I believe Revolut doesn't have a UK banking
license, and Wise is technically an EMI).
How safe are deposits with them?
Are they covered by the Financial Services Compensation Scheme?
Can complaints about them be handled by the Financial Ombudsman?
I don’t know the answer to your question but it seems that other
more conventional accounts might give you less headaches -
especially if you have large amounts of money deposited.
Why do you want the hassle of having to find the answers to those questions.
In terms of risk/benefit, where does the benefits of commission
free currency trading sit against the potential impact of fraud?
When I accepted my job offer as an expat abroad, I closed all my UK
bank accounts because I had heard horror stories of forgotten
accounts going negative and accruing all manner of charges until you
owe them an arm and a leg.
That was rather silly. Bank accounts are very difficult bordering on
impossible to reopen when you are not a UK resident. Mail redirection
will sort it out for the first year overseas. Banks are very touchy
about having overseas customers for domestic accounts now. Anti money
laundering regulations have been tightened up a lot. Did it not occur to
you to talk to your bank and get an offshore sterling account with them?
Post by Ben
May have been hasty, but the status quo is that although I am a
British citizen, I am not resident in the UK and don't have a UK
address. I don't believe it is possible to open a UK bank account,
remotely, under the circumstances?
It will be nigh on impossible for you to open a UK bank account now. You
will have to jump through a lot of hoops to open an offshore one with a
UK bank too since you no longer have a relationship with any UK bank.

Your best bet is with your former UK bank. I hope you were on good terms
with your former bank manager (and that he is still in post).
Post by Ben
Things have changed a bit since then and I realise it would have been
helpful to have a UK bank account for some UK-related matters.
As for visiting the UK just to open one, I'd rather spend my off time
in other places. Something urgent may bring me back to the UK (such
as family illness) but fortunately there has been no need to as yet.
Unless you can produce a council tax bill with your name on it I suspect
that you will not be able to open one even by visiting a bank in person.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Ben
2022-12-07 11:31:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Brown
That was rather silly. Bank accounts are very difficult bordering on
impossible to reopen when you are not a UK resident. Mail redirection
will sort it out for the first year overseas. Banks are very touchy
about having overseas customers for domestic accounts now. Anti money
laundering regulations have been tightened up a lot. Did it not occur to
you to talk to your bank and get an offshore sterling account with them?
I don't really see the point of this thread as defending what I did, but let's just say I was younger and more naive back then.

Any further comment adds nothing to resolving the current conundrum, or helping others understand the nature of Revolut and Wise (as was the intention of the OP)
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Ben
May have been hasty, but the status quo is that although I am a
British citizen, I am not resident in the UK and don't have a UK
address. I don't believe it is possible to open a UK bank account,
remotely, under the circumstances?
It will be nigh on impossible for you to open a UK bank account now. You
will have to jump through a lot of hoops to open an offshore one with a
UK bank too since you no longer have a relationship with any UK bank.
Your best bet is with your former UK bank. I hope you were on good terms
with your former bank manager (and that he is still in post).
I immigrated to my present country a long time ago. Unfortunately it's government has now taken a turn for the worse; filled with hate mongering extremists. And the demographics here are changing for worse too.

So it seems emigration to a third country is on the cards again. I really don't want to return to the UK because it would feel like a retrograde step after all the pain we went through to assimilate into the local culture, brush up on the language, etc.
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Ben
Things have changed a bit since then and I realise it would have been
helpful to have a UK bank account for some UK-related matters.
As for visiting the UK just to open one, I'd rather spend my off time
in other places. Something urgent may bring me back to the UK (such
as family illness) but fortunately there has been no need to as yet.
Unless you can produce a council tax bill with your name on it I suspect
that you will not be able to open one even by visiting a bank in person.
OK thanks, so UK banks are out. It seems we will have to rely on the EMIs and hope they don't go bust, until we get settled down in a third country and have bank accounts there.
David
2022-12-07 10:24:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben
When I accepted my job offer as an expat abroad, I closed all my UK bank accounts because I had heard horror stories of forgotten accounts going negative and accruing all manner of charges until you owe them an arm and a leg.
May have been hasty, but the status quo is that although I am a British citizen, I am not resident in the UK and don't have a UK address. I don't believe it is possible to open a UK bank account, remotely, under the circumstances?
Have you tried banks in the Channel Islands or the Isle of Mann? At one
time these were very much geared up for expat accounts.
Nick Odell
2022-12-07 20:50:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben
Post by Ben
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-63796738
'I had £8,000 stolen but Revolut won't refund it'
I use both "banks" (I believe Revolut doesn't have a UK banking license, and Wise is technically an EMI).
How safe are deposits with them?
Are they covered by the Financial Services Compensation Scheme?
Can complaints about them be handled by the Financial Ombudsman?
I don’t know the answer to your question but it seems that other more conventional accounts might give you less headaches - especially if you have large amounts of money deposited.
Why do you want the hassle of having to find the answers to those questions.
In terms of risk/benefit, where does the benefits of commission free currency trading sit against the potential impact of fraud?
When I accepted my job offer as an expat abroad, I closed all my UK bank accounts because I had heard horror stories of forgotten accounts going negative and accruing all manner of charges until you owe them an arm and a leg.
May have been hasty, but the status quo is that although I am a British citizen, I am not resident in the UK and don't have a UK address. I don't believe it is possible to open a UK bank account, remotely, under the circumstances?
Things have changed a bit since then and I realise it would have been helpful to have a UK bank account for some UK-related matters.
As for visiting the UK just to open one, I'd rather spend my off time in other places. Something urgent may bring me back to the UK (such as family illness) but fortunately there has been no need to as yet.
If the country you are currently living in as a temporary or permanent
resident appears on this list:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deposit_insurance
I can't see why you can't open accounts there and enjoy the security
they offer.

(The country from which I am currently writing has its own deposit
protection scheme: it's called a mattress.)

Nick

Billy Christy
2022-12-07 06:36:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-63796738
'I had £8,000 stolen but Revolut won't refund it'
I use both "banks" (I believe Revolut doesn't have a UK banking license, and Wise is technically an EMI).
How safe are deposits with them?
Are they covered by the Financial Services Compensation Scheme?
Can complaints about them be handled by the Financial Ombudsman?
How did the respective banks respond when you asked them?
Andy Burns
2022-12-07 08:52:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-63796738
'I had £8,000 stolen but Revolut won't refund it'
should read "scammers persuaded me to give them £8000".
Jethro_uk
2022-12-07 09:21:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-63796738 'I had £8,000 stolen but
Revolut won't refund it'
should read "scammers persuaded me to give them £8000".
By ignoring all the advice I was given by Revolut.

There was an article a while back (Guardian I think) with a screaming
headline about how because the author - someone who is "very
intelligent" (because they are a journalist and so know everything) fell
victim to a scam, then *everybody* was at risk.

It took some digging over the 2 page "article" but sure enough, buried
where they hoped you wouldn't notice it, was the smoking gun.

"...I gave them my PIN on the phone because they seemed so genuine ..."
Martin Brown
2022-12-07 16:56:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Andy Burns
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-63796738 'I had £8,000 stolen but
Revolut won't refund it'
should read "scammers persuaded me to give them £8000".
By ignoring all the advice I was given by Revolut.
There was an article a while back (Guardian I think) with a screaming
headline about how because the author - someone who is "very
intelligent" (because they are a journalist and so know everything) fell
victim to a scam, then *everybody* was at risk.
It took some digging over the 2 page "article" but sure enough, buried
where they hoped you wouldn't notice it, was the smoking gun.
"...I gave them my PIN on the phone because they seemed so genuine ..."
The scripts are very convincing. Once they hook someone they play on
their fears and the need to act urgently - it is very sophisticated
social engineering and even quite intelligent people can be taken in.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Martin Brown
2022-12-07 09:55:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-63796738
'I had £8,000 stolen but Revolut won't refund it'
Authorised push payment fraud. I'm inclined to side with Revolut on this
particular case. She ignored multiple fraud system warnings.

All cold callers are presumed hostile until proven otherwise.
Post by Ben
I use both "banks" (I believe Revolut doesn't have a UK banking license, and Wise is technically an EMI).
How safe are deposits with them?
How long is a piece of string?
Post by Ben
Are they covered by the Financial Services Compensation Scheme?
No. Have you even read their website?

https://blog.revolut.com/how-we-keep-your-money-safe/
Post by Ben
Can complaints about them be handled by the Financial Ombudsman?
They are not a UK bank. My suspicion is that if something were to go
wrong in the same way as with the crypto currency exchanges like FTX
then you would find that your bank balance is effectively zero.

It is easy to write reassuring words but the proof of the pudding is in
the eating. Caveat emptor is writ large in this instance.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Ben
2022-12-07 11:20:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Ben
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-63796738
'I had £8,000 stolen but Revolut won't refund it'
Authorised push payment fraud. I'm inclined to side with Revolut on this
particular case. She ignored multiple fraud system warnings.
All cold callers are presumed hostile until proven otherwise.
Post by Ben
I use both "banks" (I believe Revolut doesn't have a UK banking license, and Wise is technically an EMI).
How safe are deposits with them?
How long is a piece of string?
Post by Ben
Are they covered by the Financial Services Compensation Scheme?
No. Have you even read their website?
https://blog.revolut.com/how-we-keep-your-money-safe/
I missed that.
Jeff Layman
2022-12-07 11:33:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-63796738
'I had £8,000 stolen but Revolut won't refund it'
I use both "banks" (I believe Revolut doesn't have a UK banking license, and Wise is technically an EMI).
How safe are deposits with them?
Both are in the top five here:
<https://digitalemigre.com/relocation/best-uk-bank-accounts-for-british-expats-and-emigres/>
Post by Ben
Are they covered by the Financial Services Compensation Scheme?
As far as I am aware no banks outside the UK are covered.
Post by Ben
Can complaints about them be handled by the Financial Ombudsman?
I should think they have enough time trying to sort out problems with UK
banks! So, no.

I see no reason why you shouldn't split your money over several non-UK
banks if you are concerned about losing it. You might lose /part/ but at
least the other accounts should be ok (hopefully...).
--
Jeff
Mark Goodge
2022-12-07 11:53:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-63796738
'I had £8,000 stolen but Revolut won't refund it'
I use both "banks" (I believe Revolut doesn't have a UK
banking license, and Wise is technically an EMI).
How safe are deposits with them?
There's no particular reason to think that deposits are unsafe, in the way
that deposits with FTX were unsafe, although it's possible that there may be
reasons why they are unsafe in the sense that deposits with Icelandic banks
a decade or so ago were unsafe. That is, Revolut is not a scam, a fraud or a
fantasy, but it nonetheless may be vulnerable to external forces in a way
that a larger, more established financial institution would not be, and if
they did suffer in that way then deposits would not be protected by the UK
Financial Services Compensation Scheme.

However, it's important to bear in mind that the victims mentioned in the
article did not lose money as a result of any flaw in Revolut's systems. Two
were defrauded by someone who persuaded them to install malicious software
on ther PC and then duped them into transferring money from her Revolut
account to the fraudster's account (otherwise known as Authorised Push
Payment, or APP, fraud). As that article points out, this did trigger alarms
on Revolut's systems on at least one of those occasions, but the victim
ignored them. It's hard to see how Revolut could have done any more to
prevent the fraud, and it's certainly not their fault that her gullibility
was exploited in that way.
Post by Ben
Are they covered by the Financial Services Compensation Scheme?
No, as above. But this wouldn't have been relevant in this case, because the
victims' loss was not caused by a failure at Revolut.
Post by Ben
Can complaints about them be handled by the Financial Ombudsman?
Yes, because the Financial Ombudsman has jurisdiction over any UK-based
financial services provider whether or not they are registered as a bank[1].
But the FO would not necessarily find in favour of the victim if the
investigator agreed that Revolut was not at fault.

The specific issue here is that financial services providers which are
registered as banks in the UK are obliged to adhere to a code of conduct.
This, in turn, generally obliges them to refund anyone who is defrauded in
the way that this particular victim was, even if the bank was not in any way
at fault.

That, obviously, imposes costs on the banks, as they will, in effect, be
paying the costs of a crime committed against one of their customers that
they could not reasonably prevent. One of the reasons for this requirement
is to encourage the banks to have robust systems in place to help their
customers avoid being the victim of APP fraud. And to some extent that has
been effective. But, still, there will inevitably be occasions where,
despite the best efforts of the banks, their customers do get defrauded and
the bank then ends up picking up the tab even though the bank did everything
it possibly could to prevent it.

Equally obviously, the cost of meeting this obligation has to come from
somewhere, and where it comes from is everybody's account - you either pay
more in interest on a loan, or get less interst on a deposit, or pay more in
charges, etc. In effect, the bank is insuring all its customers against APP
fraud, and every customer is contributing to the insurance premium.

Unregistered banks don't have that obligation, and therefore don't have that
cost. And, therefore, their charges and interest rates can be more
competitive because their customers aren't paying the premium. Which is
fine, so long as the customer doesn't get defrauded.

Part of the problem, though, is that customers who are attracted to the
likes of Revolut are those who are focussed solely on the financial benefits
offered by the better interest rates and charges, and disregard the
potential risks. I'm not saying that's true of all of them, I'm sure there
are a lot of people who are very risk-aware and have made a calculated
decision that the slight increase in risk is justified for the financial
benefits. But those people would also be unlikely to be victims of APP fraud
in the first place. The kind of people who are vulnerable to APP fraud are
precisely those who should not be using unregistered banks, but they are
also precisely the people who will only look at the headline figures and
fail to consider the reasons why they're better than those offered by the
registered banks.

I don't think there's a simple solution to that. Even unregistered banks do
still have a duty of care to their customers, and in one of the cases in the
article Revolut did partially compensate the victim because they recognised
that they hadn't issued sufficient warnings about the transactions. But at
some point, people do need to be allowed to take their own risks in pursuit
of better rewards.

I personally wouldn't use Revolut, because I won't use any financial
services provider that's app-only. For me, that's the biggest risk factor,
because doing it all on the app makes it harder to get a good overview of
what's going on. It also leaves you incredibly vulnerable to the loss of
your phone (as one of the victims in the article discovered). But I wouldn't
want to stop other people choosing that kind of service, if they're
comfortable with it and understand how to use it.

[1] Here, for example, is a decison on a complaint against Revolut:
https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/decision/DRN-3645433.pdf

Mark
Ben
2022-12-07 15:52:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by Ben
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-63796738
'I had £8,000 stolen but Revolut won't refund it'
I use both "banks" (I believe Revolut doesn't have a UK
banking license, and Wise is technically an EMI).
How safe are deposits with them?
There's no particular reason to think that deposits are unsafe, in the way
that deposits with FTX were unsafe, although it's possible that there may be
reasons why they are unsafe in the sense that deposits with Icelandic banks
a decade or so ago were unsafe. That is, Revolut is not a scam, a fraud or a
fantasy, but it nonetheless may be vulnerable to external forces in a way
that a larger, more established financial institution would not be, and if
they did suffer in that way then deposits would not be protected by the UK
Financial Services Compensation Scheme.
I do note that this explanation of EMIs seems to suggest that in some ways EMIs protect customers' deposits more, because customers' accounts are separate to their own.

https://sdk.finance/electronic-money-institutions/
"While banking institutions fuse (mix) client funds with their funds and utilize both in running their businesses (e.g., “to extend loans on the own account”), electronic money institutions must ring-fence all funds received from clients and keep them distinct from their own on “stratified accounts.”"
Post by Mark Goodge
However, it's important to bear in mind that the victims mentioned in the
article did not lose money as a result of any flaw in Revolut's systems. Two
were defrauded by someone who persuaded them to install malicious software
on ther PC and then duped them into transferring money from her Revolut
account to the fraudster's account (otherwise known as Authorised Push
Payment, or APP, fraud). As that article points out, this did trigger alarms
on Revolut's systems on at least one of those occasions, but the victim
ignored them. It's hard to see how Revolut could have done any more to
prevent the fraud, and it's certainly not their fault that her gullibility
was exploited in that way.
Yes I did read about it, and was about to ask a question you answered next: why the fuss over this; what would a bank have done if this happened to a customer?
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by Ben
Are they covered by the Financial Services Compensation Scheme?
No, as above. But this wouldn't have been relevant in this case, because the
victims' loss was not caused by a failure at Revolut.
Post by Ben
Can complaints about them be handled by the Financial Ombudsman?
Yes, because the Financial Ombudsman has jurisdiction over any UK-based
financial services provider whether or not they are registered as a bank[1].
But the FO would not necessarily find in favour of the victim if the
investigator agreed that Revolut was not at fault.
The specific issue here is that financial services providers which are
registered as banks in the UK are obliged to adhere to a code of conduct.
This, in turn, generally obliges them to refund anyone who is defrauded in
the way that this particular victim was, even if the bank was not in any way
at fault.
That, obviously, imposes costs on the banks, as they will, in effect, be
paying the costs of a crime committed against one of their customers that
they could not reasonably prevent. One of the reasons for this requirement
is to encourage the banks to have robust systems in place to help their
customers avoid being the victim of APP fraud. And to some extent that has
been effective. But, still, there will inevitably be occasions where,
despite the best efforts of the banks, their customers do get defrauded and
the bank then ends up picking up the tab even though the bank did everything
it possibly could to prevent it.
Equally obviously, the cost of meeting this obligation has to come from
somewhere, and where it comes from is everybody's account - you either pay
more in interest on a loan, or get less interst on a deposit, or pay more in
charges, etc. In effect, the bank is insuring all its customers against APP
fraud, and every customer is contributing to the insurance premium.
Unregistered banks don't have that obligation, and therefore don't have that
cost. And, therefore, their charges and interest rates can be more
competitive because their customers aren't paying the premium. Which is
fine, so long as the customer doesn't get defrauded.
Thank you for the explanation.
Post by Mark Goodge
Part of the problem, though, is that customers who are attracted to the
likes of Revolut are those who are focussed solely on the financial benefits
offered by the better interest rates and charges, and disregard the
potential risks. I'm not saying that's true of all of them, I'm sure there
are a lot of people who are very risk-aware and have made a calculated
decision that the slight increase in risk is justified for the financial
benefits. But those people would also be unlikely to be victims of APP fraud
in the first place. The kind of people who are vulnerable to APP fraud are
precisely those who should not be using unregistered banks, but they are
also precisely the people who will only look at the headline figures and
fail to consider the reasons why they're better than those offered by the
registered banks.
I bought Wise's line that they were cheaper than traditional banks because of peer-to-peer money changing:
https://wise.com/gb/about/our-story
"Each month, they looked up the real exchange rate on Reuters. Taavet put his euros into Kristo’s Estonian bank account, and Kristo topped up Taavet’s UK account with his pounds. Both got the currency they needed almost instantly, and neither paid an extra cent on bad exchange rates or unreasonable charges."
Post by Mark Goodge
I don't think there's a simple solution to that. Even unregistered banks do
still have a duty of care to their customers, and in one of the cases in the
article Revolut did partially compensate the victim because they recognised
that they hadn't issued sufficient warnings about the transactions. But at
some point, people do need to be allowed to take their own risks in pursuit
of better rewards.
I personally wouldn't use Revolut, because I won't use any financial
services provider that's app-only. For me, that's the biggest risk factor,
because doing it all on the app makes it harder to get a good overview of
what's going on. It also leaves you incredibly vulnerable to the loss of
your phone (as one of the victims in the article discovered). But I wouldn't
want to stop other people choosing that kind of service, if they're
comfortable with it and understand how to use it.
https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/decision/DRN-3645433.pdf
Mark
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