Garden Boundary Wall

[RJH]

I live on a steep hill, and the 1.5m uphill boundary wall is in need of
repair.

Most urgently, there's a perilously leaning 10m section of drystone wall set
into my garden by about 50cm.

My concern here is what happens if, when I take down the drystone wall,
there's insufficient support behind, and the neighbour's garden, and recently
built extension and drain, ends up in my garden.

It is the neighbour's boundary - this was established when I bought the
property. I've discussed my concerns with my neighbour, and shown them the
surveyor's report ('this needs doing urgently'). I just get a blank look and
'dunno'.

I want to do this work myself. Any views on the legal position here if
removing the drystone wall results in any damage?

[Simon Parker]

Post by RJH
I live on a steep hill, and the 1.5m uphill boundary wall is in need of
repair.
Most urgently, there's a perilously leaning 10m section of drystone wall set
into my garden by about 50cm.
My concern here is what happens if, when I take down the drystone wall,
there's insufficient support behind, and the neighbour's garden, and recently
built extension and drain, ends up in my garden.
It is the neighbour's boundary - this was established when I bought the
property. I've discussed my concerns with my neighbour, and shown them the
surveyor's report ('this needs doing urgently'). I just get a blank look and
'dunno'.
I want to do this work myself. Any views on the legal position here if
removing the drystone wall results in any damage?

The legal position is that it is a potential minefield.

There's trespass, criminal damage, etc. to consider if you touch the
wall without having obtained the relevant permissions from your neighbour.

Alternatively, there's Party Wall Act compliance, and costs associated
therewith, if you plan to obtain their permission beforehand.

Finally, when you say, "I want to do this work myself..." do you mean
that you want to physically undertake the work personally, or that you
intend to pay a contractor to do it for you?

If the former, you need to consider liability for and necessary remedial
work if something goes wrong, (e.g. if "there's insufficient support
behind and the neighbour's garden, and recently built extension and
drain, end up in [your] garden"). As a minimum, you would be well
advised to consider insurance against such risks but it may be
expensive, if available at all. For the latter route, you would want to
check the competence of the contractor you plan on using and their
insurance to ensure they are covered in the event of something going wrong.

Should you do nothing and the wall collapses and falls into your garden,
this would constitute a legal nuisance and trespass and you would have
the right to take legal action to force the wall to be removed and,
depending on the precise circumstances, rebuilt and reinstated.

However, as is often the case, the best option is to explore a solution
upon which both you and your neighbour can agree without resorting to
law. If that fails, I would suggest you need to consult a lawyer that
specialises in boundary issues.

From a practical point of view, it may have come as a nasty shock to
your neighbour to find that they are responsible for the wall and, in
common with many, they have not cautiously budgeted for decades to pay
for repairs to the boundary wall, even if they were aware it was their
responsibility.

My advice, for what it is worth, is that your best route is discussion,
discussion and more discussion with the aim of reaching an agreement
with which you are both happy, leaving the law well alone (but not
insurance! :-)).

Regards

S.P.

[GB]

Post by Simon Parker

Post by RJH
I live on a steep hill, and the 1.5m uphill boundary wall is in need of
repair.
Most urgently, there's a perilously leaning 10m section of drystone wall set
into my garden by about 50cm.
My concern here is what happens if, when I take down the drystone wall,
there's insufficient support behind, and the neighbour's garden, and recently
built extension and drain, ends up in my garden.
It is the neighbour's boundary - this was established when I bought the
property. I've discussed my concerns with my neighbour, and shown them the
surveyor's report ('this needs doing urgently'). I just get a blank look and
'dunno'.
I want to do this work myself. Any views on the legal position here if
removing the drystone wall results in any damage?

The legal position is that it is a potential minefield.
There's trespass, criminal damage, etc. to consider if you touch the
wall without having obtained the relevant permissions from your neighbour.
Alternatively, there's Party Wall Act compliance, and costs associated
therewith, if you plan to obtain their permission beforehand.
Finally, when you say, "I want to do this work myself..." do you mean
that you want to physically undertake the work personally, or that you
intend to pay a contractor to do it for you?
If the former, you need to consider liability for and necessary remedial
work if something goes wrong, (e.g. if "there's insufficient support
behind and the neighbour's garden, and recently built extension and
drain, end up in [your] garden").  As a minimum, you would be well
advised to consider insurance against such risks but it may be
expensive, if available at all.  For the latter route, you would want to
check the competence of the contractor you plan on using and their
insurance to ensure they are covered in the event of something going wrong.
Should you do nothing and the wall collapses and falls into your garden,
this would constitute a legal nuisance and trespass and you would have
the right to take legal action to force the wall to be removed and,
depending on the precise circumstances, rebuilt and reinstated.
However, as is often the case, the best option is to explore a solution
upon which both you and your neighbour can agree without resorting to
law.  If that fails, I would suggest you need to consult a lawyer that
specialises in boundary issues.
From a practical point of view, it may have come as a nasty shock to
your neighbour to find that they are responsible for the wall and, in
common with many, they have not cautiously budgeted for decades to pay
for repairs to the boundary wall, even if they were aware it was their
responsibility.

Is the neighbour responsible? The OP says:

"drystone wall set into my garden by about 50cm".

Does that imply that the wall perhaps belongs to him, and he may have
responsibility to maintain it? I'm not sure what "it is the neighbour's
boundary" means?

Mischievously, can I ask whether the OP should leave the wall well
alone, and then let his insurers deal with the resulting collapse?
Possibly, that ship has sailed, as he's had the surveyor's report.

Post by Simon Parker
My advice, for what it is worth, is that your best route is discussion,
discussion and more discussion with the aim of reaching an agreement
with which you are both happy, leaving the law well alone (but not
insurance! :-)).
Regards
S.P.

[Andy Burns]

I'm not sure what "it is the neighbour's boundary" means?

When selling a property, the form asks who (if known) is responsible for
maintaining walls/fences to front/rear/left/right.

[RJH]

Post by GB

Post by Simon Parker

Post by RJH
I live on a steep hill, and the 1.5m uphill boundary wall is in need of
repair.
Most urgently, there's a perilously leaning 10m section of drystone wall set
into my garden by about 50cm.
My concern here is what happens if, when I take down the drystone wall,
there's insufficient support behind, and the neighbour's garden, and recently
built extension and drain, ends up in my garden.
It is the neighbour's boundary - this was established when I bought the
property. I've discussed my concerns with my neighbour, and shown them the
surveyor's report ('this needs doing urgently'). I just get a blank look and
'dunno'.
I want to do this work myself. Any views on the legal position here if
removing the drystone wall results in any damage?

The legal position is that it is a potential minefield.
There's trespass, criminal damage, etc. to consider if you touch the
wall without having obtained the relevant permissions from your neighbour.
Alternatively, there's Party Wall Act compliance, and costs associated
therewith, if you plan to obtain their permission beforehand.

To be clear - the drystone collapsing wall is well and truly on my land. The
boundary is about 50cm behind hit. It's a sort of very tall (1.5m) flower bed,
and the top of the drystone wall is level with my neighbour's path.

I *think* the collapse is happening as a result of a huge rhododendron bush,
and rainwater backing up in the space between the drystone wall and the
boundary.

The problem is that I don't know what's holding back my neighbours
garden/extension.

Post by GB

Post by Simon Parker
Finally, when you say, "I want to do this work myself..." do you mean
that you want to physically undertake the work personally, or that you
intend to pay a contractor to do it for you?
If the former, you need to consider liability for and necessary remedial
work if something goes wrong, (e.g. if "there's insufficient support
behind and the neighbour's garden, and recently built extension and
drain, end up in [your] garden"). As a minimum, you would be well
advised to consider insurance against such risks but it may be
expensive, if available at all. For the latter route, you would want to
check the competence of the contractor you plan on using and their
insurance to ensure they are covered in the event of something going wrong.

Yes, I could do it myself, over a few weeks. As I say, I'm wondering what the
legal position is if his garden isn't sufficiently supported. I can certainly
ask about insurance.

Post by GB

Post by Simon Parker
Should you do nothing and the wall collapses and falls into your garden,
this would constitute a legal nuisance and trespass and you would have
the right to take legal action to force the wall to be removed and,
depending on the precise circumstances, rebuilt and reinstated.
However, as is often the case, the best option is to explore a solution
upon which both you and your neighbour can agree without resorting to
law. If that fails, I would suggest you need to consult a lawyer that
specialises in boundary issues.
From a practical point of view, it may have come as a nasty shock to
your neighbour to find that they are responsible for the wall and, in
common with many, they have not cautiously budgeted for decades to pay
for repairs to the boundary wall, even if they were aware it was their
responsibility.

"drystone wall set into my garden by about 50cm".
Does that imply that the wall perhaps belongs to him, and he may have
responsibility to maintain it?

Yes, correct.

Post by GB
I'm not sure what "it is the neighbour's
boundary" means?

The boundary between our two properties is my higher-up neighbour's. The
property boundary is about 50cm behind my drystone wall.

Post by GB
Mischievously, can I ask whether the OP should leave the wall well
alone, and then let his insurers deal with the resulting collapse?
Possibly, that ship has sailed, as he's had the surveyor's report.

Yes, I could! However, I have a feeling it could be just wear and tear, and
lack of maintenance. Also, the wall is leaning to such an extent that it's
obscuring a drain cover, which serves me, and my neighbour on the other side.
Also, it's now 'crushed' the garden gate shut. So sooner rather than later . .
.

Post by GB

Post by Simon Parker
My advice, for what it is worth, is that your best route is discussion,
discussion and more discussion with the aim of reaching an agreement
with which you are both happy, leaving the law well alone (but not
insurance! :-)).

Yes, wish I could. But I think he's just in denial. I gave him a copy of the
surveyor's report and I think he just doesn't want to think about it.

[Jon Ribbens]

Post by RJH
To be clear - the drystone collapsing wall is well and truly on my
land. The boundary is about 50cm behind hit.

...

Post by RJH

Post by GB
Does that imply that the wall perhaps belongs to him, and he may have
responsibility to maintain it?

Yes, correct.

The wall is entirely on your land, but belongs to your neighbour?

[RJH]

Post by Jon Ribbens

Post by RJH
To be clear - the drystone collapsing wall is well and truly on my
land. The boundary is about 50cm behind hit.

...

Post by RJH

Post by GB
Does that imply that the wall perhaps belongs to him, and he may have
responsibility to maintain it?

Yes, correct.

The wall is entirely on your land, but belongs to your neighbour?

No, the wall belongs to me - it's on my land. My concern it is that whatever
it is that'd behind it has the ability to contain my neighbour's garden and
buildings. And I won't know that until my wall is rebuilt.

[David]

Post by RJH

Post by Jon Ribbens

Post by RJH
To be clear - the drystone collapsing wall is well and truly on my
land. The boundary is about 50cm behind hit.

...

Post by RJH

Post by GB
Does that imply that the wall perhaps belongs to him, and he may have
responsibility to maintain it?

Yes, correct.

The wall is entirely on your land, but belongs to your neighbour?

No, the wall belongs to me - it's on my land. My concern it is that
whatever it is that'd behind it has the ability to contain my
neighbour's garden and buildings. And I won't know that until my wall is
rebuilt.

If your neighbour's extension is relying on your wall for support then
does this make it a party wall?

IANAL but just thinking out loud.

If it is your wall then it is surely your responsibility, not your
neighbours.

If historically the neighbour's garden (terraced above yours) has relied
on your dry stone wall for support, then probably the issue is separate
from the issue of the extension.
Presumably all this was taken into account when the extension was built.
I also assume that the removal of the wall would be roughly equivalent to
excavating soil from your land adjacent to the boundary and thus
destabilising your neighbour's land.

Specialised legal advice required.

My first uninformed take is that you removing your wall on your land is
not your neighbour's responsibility.
Removing a long term support from your neighbour's garden boundary which
they rely on to support their terrace may well involve you in legal
liability.
Presumably you would have to establish that they should not have relied on
the wall for any support.

Is there any reason why you cannot rebuild the wall in short section so
that the majority of the support is maintained throughout the process?
Perhaps with some extra reinforcement added?

Cheers



Dave R

[RJH]

Post by David

Post by RJH

Post by Jon Ribbens

Post by RJH
To be clear - the drystone collapsing wall is well and truly on my
land. The boundary is about 50cm behind hit.

...

Post by RJH

Post by GB
Does that imply that the wall perhaps belongs to him, and he may have
responsibility to maintain it?

Yes, correct.

The wall is entirely on your land, but belongs to your neighbour?

No, the wall belongs to me - it's on my land. My concern it is that
whatever it is that'd behind it has the ability to contain my
neighbour's garden and buildings. And I won't know that until my wall is
rebuilt.

If your neighbour's extension is relying on your wall for support then
does this make it a party wall?

I don't think so. I think a party wall has to be on or at a boundary.

Post by David
IANAL but just thinking out loud.
If it is your wall then it is surely your responsibility, not your
neighbours.

Yes.

Post by David
If historically the neighbour's garden (terraced above yours) has relied
on your dry stone wall for support, then probably the issue is separate
from the issue of the extension.
Presumably all this was taken into account when the extension was built.
I also assume that the removal of the wall would be roughly equivalent to
excavating soil from your land adjacent to the boundary and thus
destabilising your neighbour's land.

That is my concern.

Post by David
Specialised legal advice required.

Yes, I'm coming to that conclusion. Although when I bought the house both my
solicitor and surveyor advised me (I'm paraphrasing) that any faults in the
boundary wall or support were my neighbour's responsibility. At worst, I would
have to take enforcement action against the neighbour. At best, they'd fix
anything that needed doing.

What I didn't think to ask was my liability for any work that I do, in my
garden, that has consequences for my neighbour. Hence this post.

Post by David
My first uninformed take is that you removing your wall on your land is
not your neighbour's responsibility.

Correct.

Post by David
Removing a long term support from your neighbour's garden boundary which
they rely on to support their terrace may well involve you in legal
liability.

That's my concern.

Post by David
Presumably you would have to establish that they should not have relied on
the wall for any support.

Yes - which is going to be very difficult to do without either removing the
wall, and/or excavating land on my neighbour's side.

Post by David
Is there any reason why you cannot rebuild the wall in short section so
that the majority of the support is maintained throughout the process?
Perhaps with some extra reinforcement added?

Yes. Insofar as I have a plan, it is to rebuild the worst of it - a c.3m
section.

[Roger Hayter]

Post by RJH

Post by David

Post by RJH

Post by Jon Ribbens

Post by RJH
To be clear - the drystone collapsing wall is well and truly on my
land. The boundary is about 50cm behind hit.

...

Post by RJH

Post by GB
Does that imply that the wall perhaps belongs to him, and he may have
responsibility to maintain it?

Yes, correct.

The wall is entirely on your land, but belongs to your neighbour?

No, the wall belongs to me - it's on my land. My concern it is that
whatever it is that'd behind it has the ability to contain my
neighbour's garden and buildings. And I won't know that until my wall is
rebuilt.

If your neighbour's extension is relying on your wall for support then
does this make it a party wall?

I don't think so. I think a party wall has to be on or at a boundary.

snip

If it is really an effective retaining wall of dry stones then it is probably
a great deal thicker than 0.5m at the base. So it may actually be a party
wall.

[Roger Hayter]

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by RJH

Post by David

Post by RJH

Post by Jon Ribbens

Post by RJH
To be clear - the drystone collapsing wall is well and truly on my
land. The boundary is about 50cm behind hit.

...

Post by RJH

Post by GB
Does that imply that the wall perhaps belongs to him, and he may have
responsibility to maintain it?

Yes, correct.

The wall is entirely on your land, but belongs to your neighbour?

No, the wall belongs to me - it's on my land. My concern it is that
whatever it is that'd behind it has the ability to contain my
neighbour's garden and buildings. And I won't know that until my wall is
rebuilt.

If your neighbour's extension is relying on your wall for support then
does this make it a party wall?

I don't think so. I think a party wall has to be on or at a boundary.

snip
If it is really an effective retaining wall of dry stones then it is probably
a great deal thicker than 0.5m at the base. So it may actually be a party
wall.

I expect that originally it was sloping back by a metre or so at the top
rather than overhanging your side!

[Spike]

Post by RJH

Post by David

Post by RJH

Post by Jon Ribbens

Post by RJH
To be clear - the drystone collapsing wall is well and truly on my
land. The boundary is about 50cm behind hit.

...

Post by RJH

Post by GB
Does that imply that the wall perhaps belongs to him, and he may have
responsibility to maintain it?

Yes, correct.

The wall is entirely on your land, but belongs to your neighbour?

No, the wall belongs to me - it's on my land. My concern it is that
whatever it is that'd behind it has the ability to contain my
neighbour's garden and buildings. And I won't know that until my wall is
rebuilt.

If your neighbour's extension is relying on your wall for support then
does this make it a party wall?

I don't think so. I think a party wall has to be on or at a boundary.

Post by David
IANAL but just thinking out loud.
If it is your wall then it is surely your responsibility, not your
neighbours.

Yes.

Post by David
If historically the neighbour's garden (terraced above yours) has relied
on your dry stone wall for support, then probably the issue is separate
from the issue of the extension.
Presumably all this was taken into account when the extension was built.
I also assume that the removal of the wall would be roughly equivalent to
excavating soil from your land adjacent to the boundary and thus
destabilising your neighbour's land.

That is my concern.

Post by David
Specialised legal advice required.

Yes, I'm coming to that conclusion. Although when I bought the house both my
solicitor and surveyor advised me (I'm paraphrasing) that any faults in the
boundary wall or support were my neighbour's responsibility.

That sounds like a game-changer. Have you got it in writing, hopefully from
both?

Post by RJH
At worst, I would
have to take enforcement action against the neighbour. At best, they'd fix
anything that needed doing.
What I didn't think to ask was my liability for any work that I do, in my
garden, that has consequences for my neighbour. Hence this post.

Post by David
My first uninformed take is that you removing your wall on your land is
not your neighbour's responsibility.

Correct.

Post by David
Removing a long term support from your neighbour's garden boundary which
they rely on to support their terrace may well involve you in legal
liability.

That's my concern.

Post by David
Presumably you would have to establish that they should not have relied on
the wall for any support.

Yes - which is going to be very difficult to do without either removing the
wall, and/or excavating land on my neighbour's side.

Post by David
Is there any reason why you cannot rebuild the wall in short section so
that the majority of the support is maintained throughout the process?
Perhaps with some extra reinforcement added?

Yes. Insofar as I have a plan, it is to rebuild the worst of it - a c.3m
section.

[Roger Hayter]

Post by David

Post by RJH

Post by Jon Ribbens

Post by RJH
To be clear - the drystone collapsing wall is well and truly on my
land. The boundary is about 50cm behind hit.

...

Post by RJH

Post by GB
Does that imply that the wall perhaps belongs to him, and he may have
responsibility to maintain it?

Yes, correct.

The wall is entirely on your land, but belongs to your neighbour?

No, the wall belongs to me - it's on my land. My concern it is that
whatever it is that'd behind it has the ability to contain my
neighbour's garden and buildings. And I won't know that until my wall is
rebuilt.

If your neighbour's extension is relying on your wall for support then
does this make it a party wall?
IANAL but just thinking out loud.
If it is your wall then it is surely your responsibility, not your
neighbours.
If historically the neighbour's garden (terraced above yours) has relied
on your dry stone wall for support, then probably the issue is separate
from the issue of the extension.
Presumably all this was taken into account when the extension was built.
I also assume that the removal of the wall would be roughly equivalent to
excavating soil from your land adjacent to the boundary and thus
destabilising your neighbour's land.
Specialised legal advice required.
My first uninformed take is that you removing your wall on your land is
not your neighbour's responsibility.
Removing a long term support from your neighbour's garden boundary which
they rely on to support their terrace may well involve you in legal
liability.
Presumably you would have to establish that they should not have relied on
the wall for any support.
Is there any reason why you cannot rebuild the wall in short section so
that the majority of the support is maintained throughout the process?
Perhaps with some extra reinforcement added?
Cheers
Dave R

Ideally with a reinforced concrete wall on deep footings also built in
sections with the decorative dry stone wall in front of it. Their are probably
building regulations involved if you are rebuilding a retaining wall.

[Mark Goodge]

On Tue, 5 Nov 2024 12:32:21 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens

Post by Jon Ribbens

Post by RJH
To be clear - the drystone collapsing wall is well and truly on my
land. The boundary is about 50cm behind hit.

...

Post by RJH

Post by GB
Does that imply that the wall perhaps belongs to him, and he may have
responsibility to maintain it?

Yes, correct.

The wall is entirely on your land, but belongs to your neighbour?

If it's on a slope, it's entirely possible that it started out on the
neighbour's land!

Mark

[Clive Arthur]

On 05/11/2024 12:08, RJH wrote:

<snip>

Post by RJH
To be clear - the drystone collapsing wall is well and truly on my land. The
boundary is about 50cm behind hit. It's a sort of very tall (1.5m) flower bed,
and the top of the drystone wall is level with my neighbour's path.
I *think* the collapse is happening as a result of a huge rhododendron bush,
and rainwater backing up in the space between the drystone wall and the
boundary.
The problem is that I don't know what's holding back my neighbours
garden/extension.

Legalities and money aside, it seems to me that you need half a Cornish
Hedge. These are built with heavy stones at the bottom and taper in
towards the top. There's a soil-filled gap between the two sides which
is planted, though in your case you'd just have the one side. Depending
on dimensions, you might have to lose or reduce the high-level 50cm strip.

If you're in or near Cornwall, the skills to do this exist. Of course
this means you will have built a retaining wall for your neighbour.

https://www.cornishhedges.co.uk/PDF/building.pdf

[RJH]

Post by Clive Arthur
<snip>

Post by RJH
To be clear - the drystone collapsing wall is well and truly on my land. The
boundary is about 50cm behind hit. It's a sort of very tall (1.5m) flower bed,
and the top of the drystone wall is level with my neighbour's path.
I *think* the collapse is happening as a result of a huge rhododendron bush,
and rainwater backing up in the space between the drystone wall and the
boundary.
The problem is that I don't know what's holding back my neighbours
garden/extension.

Legalities and money aside, it seems to me that you need half a Cornish
Hedge. These are built with heavy stones at the bottom and taper in
towards the top. There's a soil-filled gap between the two sides which
is planted, though in your case you'd just have the one side. Depending
on dimensions, you might have to lose or reduce the high-level 50cm strip.

Yes, precisely that. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if the existing wall is
similarly constructed, but has shifted because of the vegetation and poor
drainage.

Post by Clive Arthur
If you're in or near Cornwall, the skills to do this exist. Of course
this means you will have built a retaining wall for your neighbour.
https://www.cornishhedges.co.uk/PDF/building.pdf

Thanks, interesting. I am in touch with a dry stone waller.

[Simon Parker]

Post by GB

Post by Simon Parker

Post by RJH
I live on a steep hill, and the 1.5m uphill boundary wall is in need of
repair.
Most urgently, there's a perilously leaning 10m section of drystone wall set
into my garden by about 50cm.
My concern here is what happens if, when I take down the drystone wall,
there's insufficient support behind, and the neighbour's garden, and recently
built extension and drain, ends up in my garden.
It is the neighbour's boundary - this was established when I bought the
property. I've discussed my concerns with my neighbour, and shown them the
surveyor's report ('this needs doing urgently'). I just get a blank look and
'dunno'.
I want to do this work myself. Any views on the legal position here if
removing the drystone wall results in any damage?

The legal position is that it is a potential minefield.
There's trespass, criminal damage, etc. to consider if you touch the
wall without having obtained the relevant permissions from your neighbour.
Alternatively, there's Party Wall Act compliance, and costs associated
therewith, if you plan to obtain their permission beforehand.
Finally, when you say, "I want to do this work myself..." do you mean
that you want to physically undertake the work personally, or that you
intend to pay a contractor to do it for you?
If the former, you need to consider liability for and necessary
remedial work if something goes wrong, (e.g. if "there's insufficient
support behind and the neighbour's garden, and recently built
extension and drain, end up in [your] garden").  As a minimum, you
would be well advised to consider insurance against such risks but it
may be expensive, if available at all.  For the latter route, you
would want to check the competence of the contractor you plan on using
and their insurance to ensure they are covered in the event of
something going wrong.
Should you do nothing and the wall collapses and falls into your
garden, this would constitute a legal nuisance and trespass and you
would have the right to take legal action to force the wall to be
removed and, depending on the precise circumstances, rebuilt and
reinstated.
However, as is often the case, the best option is to explore a
solution upon which both you and your neighbour can agree without
resorting to law.  If that fails, I would suggest you need to consult
a lawyer that specialises in boundary issues.
 From a practical point of view, it may have come as a nasty shock to
your neighbour to find that they are responsible for the wall and, in
common with many, they have not cautiously budgeted for decades to pay
for repairs to the boundary wall, even if they were aware it was their
responsibility.

"drystone wall set into my garden by about 50cm".

The paragraph, in full, said: "Most urgently, there's a perilously
leaning 10m section of drystone wall set into my garden by about 50cm."

My interpretation of that, (and the understanding on which I replied),
is that there is a 10 metre section of the neighbour's dry stone wall
which is leaning beyond the boundary and into the OP's garden by 50
centimetres, or so.

Said section is therefore at imminent risk of collapse hence the advice
that "this [repair] needs doing urgently".

Perhaps the OP could clarify?

Post by GB
Does that imply that the wall perhaps belongs to him, and he may have
responsibility to maintain it?  I'm not sure what "it is the neighbour's
boundary" means?

My interpretation is that "it is the neighbour's [responsibility to
maintain this] boundary".

Again, perhaps the OP can clarify?

Post by GB
Mischievously, can I ask whether the OP should leave the wall well
alone, and then let his insurers deal with the resulting collapse?
Possibly, that ship has sailed, as he's had the surveyor's report.

Personally, I would not touch the wall with someone else's barge pole,
never mind my own.

In the OP's shoes, I would start by handing the neighbour a copy of the
report in full and invite their comments once they have had sufficient
time to read it.

I would also pass a copy of the report to my insurers. It may lead to
an increase in premium, but that will be better than the alternative of
them repudiating cover. The insurers may decide to deal with the matter
without further reference to the OP.


As another poster has commented, this is not the ideal time of year to
be undertaking work of this nature, and certainly not as a DIY project.

However, in a spirit of full disclosure I have seen work of this nature
undertaken at a friend's property and the contractors started by
inserting sheet piling into the ground several metres back from the
proposed work area to provide necessary support prior to starting work.
It was not cheap.

Regards

S.P.

[RJH]

<div id="editor" contenteditable="false">> Is the neighbour responsible? The

Post by GB
"drystone wall set into my garden by about 50cm".

The paragraph, in full, said: "Most urgently, there's a perilously
leaning 10m section of drystone wall set into my garden by about 50cm."
My interpretation of that, (and the understanding on which I replied),
is that there is a 10 metre section of the neighbour's dry stone wall
which is leaning beyond the boundary and into the OP's garden by 50
centimetres, or so.

Sort of - my dry stone wall is leaning into my garden. Not for the entire 10m
- maybe a 3m section.

Said section is therefore at imminent risk of collapse hence the advice
that "this [repair] needs doing urgently".
Perhaps the OP could clarify?

Post by GB
Does that imply that the wall perhaps belongs to him, and he may have
responsibility to maintain it? I'm not sure what "it is the neighbour's
boundary" means?

"Boundary" is the line that separates the 2 properties. On my side there's the
1.5m dry stone wall. On their's it's a path, level with the top of my leaning
wall. The thin line that is the boundary is the edge of their concrete path.

My interpretation is that "it is the neighbour's [responsibility to
maintain this] boundary".
Again, perhaps the OP can clarify?

I'm not sure 'maintain' is the correct phrase - but it is their boundary, and
they put up a wooden fence where the ground's level, towards the back of the
garden.

Post by GB
Mischievously, can I ask whether the OP should leave the wall well
alone, and then let his insurers deal with the resulting collapse?
Possibly, that ship has sailed, as he's had the surveyor's report.

Personally, I would not touch the wall with someone else's barge pole,
never mind my own.
In the OP's shoes, I would start by handing the neighbour a copy of the
report in full and invite their comments once they have had sufficient
time to read it.

Yes, I could do that - they've already had the relevant sections, and had no
comment. Literally a shrug.

I would also pass a copy of the report to my insurers. It may lead to
an increase in premium, but that will be better than the alternative of
them repudiating cover. The insurers may decide to deal with the matter
without further reference to the OP.

Yes, I could do that too. I suppose the main thing I don't understand is why
my insurers would cover what I understand to be my neighbour's responsibility.
Which I understand to be: maintain the boundary to ensure that their garden
and buildings stay on their side of the boundary.

As another poster has commented, this is not the ideal time of year to
be undertaking work of this nature, and certainly not as a DIY project.

Yes, thanks, noted.

However, in a spirit of full disclosure I have seen work of this nature
undertaken at a friend's property and the contractors started by
inserting sheet piling into the ground several metres back from the
proposed work area to provide necessary support prior to starting work.
It was not cheap.

The surveyor went to town - reckoned £60,000 overall.

[Martin Brown]

Post by RJH
I live on a steep hill, and the 1.5m uphill boundary wall is in need of
repair.
Most urgently, there's a perilously leaning 10m section of drystone wall set
into my garden by about 50cm.

I'm confused. Here you say the wall is 0.5m *inside* your garden - in
which case it is your wall on your land. Or are you saying it is 1.5m
high and on the actual boundary but leaning into your garden by 0.5m?

That is potentially very dangerous.

Even a 1m wall collapsing can do a lot of damage to anything in its way.
6' high it is a lethal threat to anyone working on it at close quarters.

Post by RJH
My concern here is what happens if, when I take down the drystone wall,
there's insufficient support behind, and the neighbour's garden, and recently
built extension and drain, ends up in my garden.
It is the neighbour's boundary - this was established when I bought the
property. I've discussed my concerns with my neighbour, and shown them the
surveyor's report ('this needs doing urgently'). I just get a blank look and
'dunno'.

But here you say it is the boundary and his wall retaining his garden on
the slope rather than a shared boundary or your wall.

Post by RJH
I want to do this work myself. Any views on the legal position here if
removing the drystone wall results in any damage?

Going into winter is not a good time to start dismantling a retaining
wall. Wet ground can fluidise and the damage will affect your garden.

I'd be more worried about your survival if the retaining wall fails or
the soil behind it moves suddenly when you are close by. Stone walls
with soil behind them in free fall move alarmingly quickly.

[RJH]

Post by Martin Brown

Post by RJH
I live on a steep hill, and the 1.5m uphill boundary wall is in need of
repair.
Most urgently, there's a perilously leaning 10m section of drystone wall set
into my garden by about 50cm.

I'm confused. Here you say the wall is 0.5m *inside* your garden - in
which case it is your wall on your land.

Yes, it's on my garden. The boundary is just behing the wall, at the same
lebvel as the top of the drystone wall.

Post by Martin Brown
Or are you saying it is 1.5m
high and on the actual boundary but leaning into your garden by 0.5m?
That is potentially very dangerous.
Even a 1m wall collapsing can do a lot of damage to anything in its way.
6' high it is a lethal threat to anyone working on it at close quarters.

Yep. I had some quite sturdy builders round for some other work and they were
very nervous around it.

Post by Martin Brown

Post by RJH
My concern here is what happens if, when I take down the drystone wall,
there's insufficient support behind, and the neighbour's garden, and recently
built extension and drain, ends up in my garden.
It is the neighbour's boundary - this was established when I bought the
property. I've discussed my concerns with my neighbour, and shown them the
surveyor's report ('this needs doing urgently'). I just get a blank look and
'dunno'.

But here you say it is the boundary and his wall retaining his garden on
the slope rather than a shared boundary or your wall.

The garden isn't so much on a slope, more a step. His step is 1.5m above mine.

Post by Martin Brown

Post by RJH
I want to do this work myself. Any views on the legal position here if
removing the drystone wall results in any damage?

Going into winter is not a good time to start dismantling a retaining
wall. Wet ground can fluidise and the damage will affect your garden.

Yes, that's a good point. I suppose I'm hoping the dry stone wall has done its
thing, and allowed the bulk of the groundwater through . . .

Post by Martin Brown
I'd be more worried about your survival if the retaining wall fails or
the soil behind it moves suddenly when you are close by. Stone walls
with soil behind them in free fall move alarmingly quickly.

I can work from the top of the wall, and from the 'secure' end - slowly - and
remove the stones one by one. I think I'd be OK if it suddenly collapsed.

[Mark Goodge]

Post by RJH
I live on a steep hill, and the 1.5m uphill boundary wall is in need of
repair.
Most urgently, there's a perilously leaning 10m section of drystone wall set
into my garden by about 50cm.
My concern here is what happens if, when I take down the drystone wall,
there's insufficient support behind, and the neighbour's garden, and recently
built extension and drain, ends up in my garden.
It is the neighbour's boundary - this was established when I bought the
property. I've discussed my concerns with my neighbour, and shown them the
surveyor's report ('this needs doing urgently'). I just get a blank look and
'dunno'.
I want to do this work myself. Any views on the legal position here if
removing the drystone wall results in any damage?

If it's your neighbour's wall, and they are refusing to carry out necessary
maintenance, then you need professional legal advice. Do not, under any
circumstances, do the work yourself until you have had the benefit of that.

As a starting point, https://gardenlaw.co.uk/ may be able to point you in
the right direction.

Mark

[RJH]

Post by Mark Goodge

Post by RJH
I live on a steep hill, and the 1.5m uphill boundary wall is in need of
repair.
Most urgently, there's a perilously leaning 10m section of drystone wall set
into my garden by about 50cm.
My concern here is what happens if, when I take down the drystone wall,
there's insufficient support behind, and the neighbour's garden, and recently
built extension and drain, ends up in my garden.
It is the neighbour's boundary - this was established when I bought the
property. I've discussed my concerns with my neighbour, and shown them the
surveyor's report ('this needs doing urgently'). I just get a blank look and
'dunno'.
I want to do this work myself. Any views on the legal position here if
removing the drystone wall results in any damage?

If it's your neighbour's wall, and they are refusing to carry out necessary
maintenance, then you need professional legal advice. Do not, under any
circumstances, do the work yourself until you have had the benefit of that.
As a starting point, https://gardenlaw.co.uk/ may be able to point you in
the right direction.

Thanks - looks handy. But it's the 'retaining' part of the boundary that I'm
interested in, and the wall page of that site doesn't work.

I suppose in summary I'm expecting my neighbour's boundary structure (and I
don't know what that is, as it's obscured by my dry stone wall) to provide the
necessary support for their garden and buildings, rather than having to rely
on whatever happens to be in my garden.

[Roger Hayter]

Post by RJH

Post by Mark Goodge

Post by RJH
I live on a steep hill, and the 1.5m uphill boundary wall is in need of
repair.
Most urgently, there's a perilously leaning 10m section of drystone wall set
into my garden by about 50cm.
My concern here is what happens if, when I take down the drystone wall,
there's insufficient support behind, and the neighbour's garden, and recently
built extension and drain, ends up in my garden.
It is the neighbour's boundary - this was established when I bought the
property. I've discussed my concerns with my neighbour, and shown them the
surveyor's report ('this needs doing urgently'). I just get a blank look and
'dunno'.
I want to do this work myself. Any views on the legal position here if
removing the drystone wall results in any damage?

If it's your neighbour's wall, and they are refusing to carry out necessary
maintenance, then you need professional legal advice. Do not, under any
circumstances, do the work yourself until you have had the benefit of that.
As a starting point, https://gardenlaw.co.uk/ may be able to point you in
the right direction.

Thanks - looks handy. But it's the 'retaining' part of the boundary that I'm
interested in, and the wall page of that site doesn't work.
I suppose in summary I'm expecting my neighbour's boundary structure (and I
don't know what that is, as it's obscured by my dry stone wall) to provide the
necessary support for their garden and buildings, rather than having to rely
on whatever happens to be in my garden.

How old are the houses? Round here (mid-Wales) the supporting boundary
structure would be the subsoil and your drystone wall. Hopefully with a bit of
rocky outcrop part of the way up.

[Roger Hayter]

Post by RJH
I live on a steep hill, and the 1.5m uphill boundary wall is in need of
repair.
Most urgently, there's a perilously leaning 10m section of drystone wall set
into my garden by about 50cm.
My concern here is what happens if, when I take down the drystone wall,
there's insufficient support behind, and the neighbour's garden, and recently
built extension and drain, ends up in my garden.
It is the neighbour's boundary - this was established when I bought the
property. I've discussed my concerns with my neighbour, and shown them the
surveyor's report ('this needs doing urgently'). I just get a blank look and
'dunno'.
I want to do this work myself. Any views on the legal position here if
removing the drystone wall results in any damage?

On the practical and building regs side of things it might be worth asking in
uk.d-i-y

[RJH]

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by RJH
I live on a steep hill, and the 1.5m uphill boundary wall is in need of
repair.
Most urgently, there's a perilously leaning 10m section of drystone wall set
into my garden by about 50cm.
My concern here is what happens if, when I take down the drystone wall,
there's insufficient support behind, and the neighbour's garden, and recently
built extension and drain, ends up in my garden.
It is the neighbour's boundary - this was established when I bought the
property. I've discussed my concerns with my neighbour, and shown them the
surveyor's report ('this needs doing urgently'). I just get a blank look and
'dunno'.
I want to do this work myself. Any views on the legal position here if
removing the drystone wall results in any damage?

On the practical and building regs side of things it might be worth asking in
uk.d-i-y

Good point, thanks

[Simon Parker]

Post by RJH
I live on a steep hill, and the 1.5m uphill boundary wall is in need of
repair.
Most urgently, there's a perilously leaning 10m section of drystone wall set
into my garden by about 50cm.
My concern here is what happens if, when I take down the drystone wall,
there's insufficient support behind, and the neighbour's garden, and recently
built extension and drain, ends up in my garden.
It is the neighbour's boundary - this was established when I bought the
property. I've discussed my concerns with my neighbour, and shown them the
surveyor's report ('this needs doing urgently'). I just get a blank look and
'dunno'.
I want to do this work myself. Any views on the legal position here if
removing the drystone wall results in any damage?

You've clarified a number of points since my previous post for which I
thank you. However, your clarifications and further details radically
alter the underlying facts. On that basis, please ignore my previous post.

The situation you have described is legally considered a "retaining
wall" which is considered a type of party structure and is covered by
the Party Wall etc. Act (PWA) 1996 [1].

Because the wall has a retaining function, the presumption is that
responsibility for maintenance generally lies with the owner of the
property who derives benefit from the support, i.e. your neighbour. I
assume that your solicitor checked that nothing contrary to this was
stated in the deeds when you purchased the property, hence them stating
it is your neighbour's responsibility to maintain the wall.

The legislation creating this position is section 11(5)(a) of the PWA
1996 [2] which says that the cost of repairing a party structure is
defrayed according to "the use to which the owners respectively make or
may make use of the structure or wall concerned".

Given the foregoing, in your shoes I would serve notice on your
neighbour exercising your right of repair in accordance with section
2(2)(b) of the PWA 1996 [3].

When serving the notice, you should make it clear to them that you
believe them to be responsible for the full costs of repair and provide
them with the estimate of costs provided by your surveyor.

If they dispute either responsibility or the costs, surveyors will have
to be appointed to determine these.

Note that should you choose to pursue this course, costs are recouped
retrospectively from the 'adjoining owner' (i.e. your neighbour) and,
should they fail to pay, you would have to take enforcement action
However, you would not be going to court to argue your case, as the
surveyors would already have determined the facts, but it would be a
straightforward enforcing of the decision.

On the subject of insurance, the case of Oddy v Phoenix Assurance Co
Limited [1966] provides a definition of landslip which is important
because most policies cover damage to the retaining wall and buildings
caused by landslip. However, there is a major difference between damage
caused by landslip and that caused by long-term deterioration of the
retaining wall. In the Oddy case, it was established that the damage
was caused by the failure of the wall rather than landslip and therefore
the insurance cover for landslip did not cover the event.

In short, legally there is a massive distinction between a retaining
wall giving way through deterioration from a lack of maintenance and an
accidental event such as landslip caused by heavy rainfall.

Finally, should you be minded to undertake repairs to the wall yourself
and the wall fails during said repairs, (regardless of whether or not
you believe the failure was related to your work), expect a lengthy,
protracted and expensive legal battle which could easily run into six
figures.

Regards

S.P.

[1] https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/40/contents
[2] https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/40/section/11
[3] https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/40/section/2

[RJH]

Post by Simon Parker

Post by RJH
I live on a steep hill, and the 1.5m uphill boundary wall is in need of
repair.
Most urgently, there's a perilously leaning 10m section of drystone wall set
into my garden by about 50cm.
My concern here is what happens if, when I take down the drystone wall,
there's insufficient support behind, and the neighbour's garden, and recently
built extension and drain, ends up in my garden.
It is the neighbour's boundary - this was established when I bought the
property. I've discussed my concerns with my neighbour, and shown them the
surveyor's report ('this needs doing urgently'). I just get a blank look and
'dunno'.
I want to do this work myself. Any views on the legal position here if
removing the drystone wall results in any damage?

You've clarified a number of points since my previous post for which I
thank you. However, your clarifications and further details radically
alter the underlying facts. On that basis, please ignore my previous post.
The situation you have described is legally considered a "retaining
wall" which is considered a type of party structure and is covered by
the Party Wall etc. Act (PWA) 1996 [1].
Because the wall has a retaining function, the presumption is that
responsibility for maintenance generally lies with the owner of the
property who derives benefit from the support, i.e. your neighbour. I
assume that your solicitor checked that nothing contrary to this was
stated in the deeds when you purchased the property, hence them stating
it is your neighbour's responsibility to maintain the wall.
The legislation creating this position is section 11(5)(a) of the PWA
1996 [2] which says that the cost of repairing a party structure is
defrayed according to "the use to which the owners respectively make or
may make use of the structure or wall concerned".
Given the foregoing, in your shoes I would serve notice on your
neighbour exercising your right of repair in accordance with section
2(2)(b) of the PWA 1996 [3].
When serving the notice, you should make it clear to them that you
believe them to be responsible for the full costs of repair and provide
them with the estimate of costs provided by your surveyor.

Thanks - I appreciate I wasn't that clear, so thanks again for sticking with
it.

Post by Simon Parker
If they dispute either responsibility or the costs, surveyors will have
to be appointed to determine these.
Note that should you choose to pursue this course, costs are recouped
retrospectively from the 'adjoining owner' (i.e. your neighbour) and,
should they fail to pay, you would have to take enforcement action
However, you would not be going to court to argue your case, as the
surveyors would already have determined the facts, but it would be a
straightforward enforcing of the decision.
On the subject of insurance, the case of Oddy v Phoenix Assurance Co
Limited [1966] provides a definition of landslip which is important
because most policies cover damage to the retaining wall and buildings
caused by landslip. However, there is a major difference between damage
caused by landslip and that caused by long-term deterioration of the
retaining wall. In the Oddy case, it was established that the damage
was caused by the failure of the wall rather than landslip and therefore
the insurance cover for landslip did not cover the event.
In short, legally there is a massive distinction between a retaining
wall giving way through deterioration from a lack of maintenance and an
accidental event such as landslip caused by heavy rainfall.

Thanks. There's actually two aspects to this.

The first is the section I referred to in the OP. That is, the possibility
that the boundary doesn't sufficiently retain my neighbour's land. And that
has possibly caused (maybe only in part) my wall to list into my garden.

The second is that there is, on another section, about 10m of recently built
brick wall - maybe 10 years old. This has several cracks and movement. Again
raised by the surveyor, confirmed by the solicitor that it's my neighbour's
boundary and therefore (ahem, that might be questioned at some point) their
wall and responsibility.

So really the 'landslip' scenario looks pretty unlikely.

Post by Simon Parker
Finally, should you be minded to undertake repairs to the wall yourself
and the wall fails during said repairs, (regardless of whether or not
you believe the failure was related to your work), expect a lengthy,
protracted and expensive legal battle which could easily run into six
figures.
Regards
S.P.
[1] https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/40/contents
[2] https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/40/section/11
[3] https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/40/section/2

Many thanks. I'm going to start by asking one of them round and having a
rather more direct conversation, given the new urgency.

[Simon Parker]

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker

Post by RJH
I live on a steep hill, and the 1.5m uphill boundary wall is in need of
repair.
Most urgently, there's a perilously leaning 10m section of drystone wall set
into my garden by about 50cm.
My concern here is what happens if, when I take down the drystone wall,
there's insufficient support behind, and the neighbour's garden, and recently
built extension and drain, ends up in my garden.
It is the neighbour's boundary - this was established when I bought the
property. I've discussed my concerns with my neighbour, and shown them the
surveyor's report ('this needs doing urgently'). I just get a blank look and
'dunno'.
I want to do this work myself. Any views on the legal position here if
removing the drystone wall results in any damage?

You've clarified a number of points since my previous post for which I
thank you. However, your clarifications and further details radically
alter the underlying facts. On that basis, please ignore my previous post.
The situation you have described is legally considered a "retaining
wall" which is considered a type of party structure and is covered by
the Party Wall etc. Act (PWA) 1996 [1].
Because the wall has a retaining function, the presumption is that
responsibility for maintenance generally lies with the owner of the
property who derives benefit from the support, i.e. your neighbour. I
assume that your solicitor checked that nothing contrary to this was
stated in the deeds when you purchased the property, hence them stating
it is your neighbour's responsibility to maintain the wall.
The legislation creating this position is section 11(5)(a) of the PWA
1996 [2] which says that the cost of repairing a party structure is
defrayed according to "the use to which the owners respectively make or
may make use of the structure or wall concerned".
Given the foregoing, in your shoes I would serve notice on your
neighbour exercising your right of repair in accordance with section
2(2)(b) of the PWA 1996 [3].
When serving the notice, you should make it clear to them that you
believe them to be responsible for the full costs of repair and provide
them with the estimate of costs provided by your surveyor.

Thanks - I appreciate I wasn't that clear, so thanks again for sticking with
it.

No problem. You are most welcome. Given the likely costs involved and
the scope of works involved, were I in your shoes, I would consider it
beneficial to appoint a specialist lawyer to draft and serve the notice
to ensure everything is in order. More on that below, though. :-)

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker
If they dispute either responsibility or the costs, surveyors will have
to be appointed to determine these.
Note that should you choose to pursue this course, costs are recouped
retrospectively from the 'adjoining owner' (i.e. your neighbour) and,
should they fail to pay, you would have to take enforcement action
However, you would not be going to court to argue your case, as the
surveyors would already have determined the facts, but it would be a
straightforward enforcing of the decision.
On the subject of insurance, the case of Oddy v Phoenix Assurance Co
Limited [1966] provides a definition of landslip which is important
because most policies cover damage to the retaining wall and buildings
caused by landslip. However, there is a major difference between damage
caused by landslip and that caused by long-term deterioration of the
retaining wall. In the Oddy case, it was established that the damage
was caused by the failure of the wall rather than landslip and therefore
the insurance cover for landslip did not cover the event.
In short, legally there is a massive distinction between a retaining
wall giving way through deterioration from a lack of maintenance and an
accidental event such as landslip caused by heavy rainfall.

Thanks. There's actually two aspects to this.
The first is the section I referred to in the OP. That is, the possibility
that the boundary doesn't sufficiently retain my neighbour's land. And that
has possibly caused (maybe only in part) my wall to list into my garden.

Historically, retaining wall were built by tradesman that "knew what
worked" and had been doing it for years. Nowadays, loading calculations
have to be performed and I think it is unlikely that the existing wall
will be considered suitable and compliant with modern standards. It is
likely that a structural engineer will need to be appointed and it may
subsequently transpire that planning permission is required to carry out
the necessary works. When the neighbour had additional works carried
out on their land, consideration should have been given to the potential
increased load on the retaining wall by their structural engineer. They
may well still have a copy of those calculations which will be useful to
the surveyor appointed to look at replacing the wall.

If the wall does fail, your neighbour is liable for the costs not only
of replacing the wall but also your reinstatement costs. In short, this
is only going to get more expensive for them the longer they leave it.

As I said originally, it is a legal minefield. I recommend appointing
someone suitably qualified and experienced to handle it on your behalf
if the neighbour is unwilling to progress matters urgently after your
next conversation with them.

Ideally, when you speak with them, your neighbour suddenly grasps the
importance and appreciates the seriousness and urgency of the matter,
appoints their own surveyor to carry out an inspection and then serves a
PWA 1996 notice on you, rather than the other way round.

Post by RJH
The second is that there is, on another section, about 10m of recently built
brick wall - maybe 10 years old. This has several cracks and movement. Again
raised by the surveyor, confirmed by the solicitor that it's my neighbour's
boundary and therefore (ahem, that might be questioned at some point) their
wall and responsibility.

Which of you commissioned and paid for this work? As it is only around
10 years old and is over 1 metre high a structural or civil engineer
should have been involved in the design. Did that happen and, if so,
have you / your neighbour spoken to them about the cracks and movement?

Post by RJH
So really the 'landslip' scenario looks pretty unlikely.

I would suggest that from an insurance company's point of view, given
what is known at this point, it is highly unlikely that the proximate
cause of failure of the wall will be attributed to either 'landslip' or
'storm'. (I put both words in quotes as they have precise legal meaning
in these circumstances.)

It may be accepted that such events 'facilitated' the failure but did
not 'cause' it. In such circumstances, the insurers will not pay out
under a policy for either 'accidental damage', 'storm', 'flood' or
'escape of water', etc.

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker
Finally, should you be minded to undertake repairs to the wall yourself
and the wall fails during said repairs, (regardless of whether or not
you believe the failure was related to your work), expect a lengthy,
protracted and expensive legal battle which could easily run into six
figures.
Regards
S.P.
[1] https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/40/contents
[2] https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/40/section/11
[3] https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/40/section/2

Many thanks. I'm going to start by asking one of them round and having a
rather more direct conversation, given the new urgency.

Again, you're most welcome. A direct conversation seems a sensible next
step. I recommend stressing at this meeting that if they do not confirm
that they intend to serve a notice on you within, say, two weeks of the
meeting and follow through by serving that, then you will serve a notice
on them with all that this would entail.

Regards

S.P.

[billy bookcase]

Post by Simon Parker
Because the wall has a retaining function, the presumption is that
responsibility for maintenance generally lies with the owner of the
property who derives benefit from the support, i.e. your neighbour.

Or to be more precise. The principle appears to be that responsibility
for maintenance lies with the owner of the land which is being retained;
regardless of whether they derive any benefit thereof. * As its possible
to envisage circumstances where, unlike here, neighbours might prefer a
more gentle slope at the bottom of their garden.


The following link contains a plethora of information

*
https://cila.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/retaining-walls-cila-subsidence-sig-nov17.pdf


quote:

Unless the title deeds make specific reference to responsibility for a
wall, it is generally accepted that the person whose land is retained by
the wall is responsible for its repair and maintenance....
Beware however the situation may be different where the lower land owner
has excavated away his own elevated land to provide a lower but level area
whilst rightly maintaining support to his neighbour’s higher land.


[...]

Dry stone walls up to 1.5m high can be reinstated following guidelines
issued by the Dry Stone Walling Association but over 1.5m may require
design input from a structural engineer, see web link:
http://www.dswa.org.uk/leaflets.asp

unquote


bb

[Roger Hayter]

Post by billy bookcase

Post by Simon Parker
Because the wall has a retaining function, the presumption is that
responsibility for maintenance generally lies with the owner of the
property who derives benefit from the support, i.e. your neighbour.

Or to be more precise. The principle appears to be that responsibility
for maintenance lies with the owner of the land which is being retained;
regardless of whether they derive any benefit thereof. * As its possible
to envisage circumstances where, unlike here, neighbours might prefer a
more gentle slope at the bottom of their garden.
The following link contains a plethora of information
*
https://cila.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/retaining-walls-cila-subsidence-sig-nov17.pdf
Unless the title deeds make specific reference to responsibility for a
wall, it is generally accepted that the person whose land is retained by
the wall is responsible for its repair and maintenance....
Beware however the situation may be different where the lower land owner
has excavated away his own elevated land to provide a lower but level area
whilst rightly maintaining support to his neighbour’s higher land.
[...]
Dry stone walls up to 1.5m high can be reinstated following guidelines
issued by the Dry Stone Walling Association but over 1.5m may require
http://www.dswa.org.uk/leaflets.asp
unquote
bb

That last link is broken. Try:

https://www.dswa.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Retaining-spec-2020.pdf

[Martin Brown]

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by billy bookcase
Dry stone walls up to 1.5m high can be reinstated following guidelines
issued by the Dry Stone Walling Association but over 1.5m may require
http://www.dswa.org.uk/leaflets.asp
unquote

https://www.dswa.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Retaining-spec-2020.pdf

Although I really wouldn't want to rely on a a dry stone retaining wall
that had been installed by anyone other than an expert dry stone waller.
There is a real skill in picking the right piece for each location and
making the base spread sufficient to support the structure itself and
*all* of the soil behind it. Time will eventually take its toll.

It is all too easy for an amateur to leave gaps that are too big and not
properly interlock the stones in a way that precludes them from moving.
You could end up with a pile of rubble (which is the evolutionary fate
of free standing dry stone walls exposed to the elements and livestock).

[Simon Parker]

Post by Martin Brown

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by billy bookcase
Dry stone walls up to 1.5m high can be reinstated following guidelines
issued by the Dry Stone Walling Association but over 1.5m may require
http://www.dswa.org.uk/leaflets.asp
unquote

https://www.dswa.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Retaining-
spec-2020.pdf

Although I really wouldn't want to rely on a a dry stone retaining wall
that had been installed by anyone other than an expert dry stone waller.
There is a real skill in picking the right piece for each location and
making the base spread sufficient to support the structure itself and
*all* of the soil behind it. Time will eventually take its toll.
It is all too easy for an amateur to leave gaps that are too big and not
properly interlock the stones in a way that precludes them from moving.
You could end up with a pile of rubble (which is the evolutionary fate
of free standing dry stone walls exposed to the elements and livestock).

I confess that I'm both shocked and dismayed in equal measure that the
OP is still talking of a DIY rebuild given the comments to this thread,
many of which were supported with relevant cites, which demonstrate:

(1) Maintenance of the wall is most likely his neighbour's responsibility;
(2) Any work on the wall must comply with the Party Wall etc. Act. which
includes serving notice, along with surveyors reports and costings with
a surveyor having estimated the reinstatement cost at around £60,000
which many / most / almost everyone (delete as applicable) would
consider to be beyond the scope of the average DIYer;
(3) Legal costs in the event of a dispute should he attempt a DIY repair
and there's an issue during the repair will likely be in the six figure
range;
(4) It is unlikely that the existing structure meets current regulations
so it will likely need upgrading when being rebuilt;
(5) Given the size and purpose of the wall, the work should be completed
by a highly skilled professional, (not even a "run of the mill"
professional dry stone waller is considered suitably skilled); and
(6) Should his repair to the wall subsequently fail, (for any and all
values of "subsequently", with "fail" possibly resulting in damage up to
and including the complete destruction of his neighbour's property, or
certainly damage sufficient to make it uninhabitable until it is
repaired), then he will likely be liable both for the reinstatement /
rebuild cost of his neighbour's property and for reasonable costs they
incur whilst it is being rebuilt, (hotel, storage fees, etc.).

Currently, he has no liability and any exposure to risk, (e.g. should
the wall fail and fall into his garden and / or damage his home), is his
neighbour's not his.

He's looking to voluntarily expose himself to a liability that could
range from six figures for legal costs into seven figures for rebuild
costs with the absolute worst case scenario being his death.

I don't think one needs to be legally qualified to realise that this is
not a good deal and certainly not one any sensible person would
recommend taking.

As I said at the outset, I am both shocked and dismayed that the OP is
still talking about a DIY rebuild.

Regards

S.P.

[RJH]

Post by Simon Parker

Post by Martin Brown

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by billy bookcase
Dry stone walls up to 1.5m high can be reinstated following guidelines
issued by the Dry Stone Walling Association but over 1.5m may require
http://www.dswa.org.uk/leaflets.asp
unquote

https://www.dswa.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Retaining-
spec-2020.pdf

Although I really wouldn't want to rely on a a dry stone retaining wall

I've tried to stress that this wall shouldn't be retaining. It's on my land
and has no business retaining my neighbour's land.

The boundary, which is 50cm or so back from the wall, is where (IIUC) the
retaining should happen.

These pictures may help (I'll take them down in a day or so)

https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B1m5kuVsbG0y4nV

Post by Simon Parker

Post by Martin Brown
that had been installed by anyone other than an expert dry stone waller.
There is a real skill in picking the right piece for each location and
making the base spread sufficient to support the structure itself and
*all* of the soil behind it. Time will eventually take its toll.
It is all too easy for an amateur to leave gaps that are too big and not
properly interlock the stones in a way that precludes them from moving.
You could end up with a pile of rubble (which is the evolutionary fate
of free standing dry stone walls exposed to the elements and livestock).

I confess that I'm both shocked and dismayed in equal measure that the
OP is still talking of a DIY rebuild given the comments to this thread,

I have discussed it with an experienced dry stone waller, and have a friend
who's done similar.

Post by Simon Parker
(1) Maintenance of the wall is most likely his neighbour's responsibility;

I still don't think it is. The wall is well within my property. I would
stress: the dry stone wall shouldn't be retaining. The retaining should happen
at the boundary. It is a purely decorative fixture.

It's what's behind the wall, at the boundary 50cm back from my wall, that's my
concern. When the houses were built (c.1900) there would have been some method
of retaining my neighbour's land. My concern - not evidenced, but common-sense
informed - is that the original method of retaining my neighbour's land has
become compromised.

I accept of course that there is a possibility that my dry stone wall is an
original part of the properties, and was built to be retaining. Maybe
regulations over 100 years back allowed such an arrangement. I think that's
unlikely, though, and would surely have been picked up at the conveyancing
stage..

Post by Simon Parker
(2) Any work on the wall must comply with the Party Wall etc. Act. which
includes serving notice, along with surveyors reports and costings with
a surveyor having estimated the reinstatement cost at around £60,000
which many / most / almost everyone (delete as applicable) would
consider to be beyond the scope of the average DIYer;

Yes, I think work at the retaining boundary will be needed. And it's now
become urgent as has impacted on the 3m or so section of the 10m dry stone
wall.

Post by Simon Parker
(3) Legal costs in the event of a dispute should he attempt a DIY repair
and there's an issue during the repair will likely be in the six figure
range;

Yes, thanks, that penny's dropped. I don't intend to attempt anything until
I've discussed it with my neighbour, and I'm as certain as I can be concerning
liability.

Post by Simon Parker
(4) It is unlikely that the existing structure meets current regulations
so it will likely need upgrading when being rebuilt;

Well, the whole 20m section along the boundary is at best compromised.

Post by Simon Parker
(5) Given the size and purpose of the wall,

I would stress that the wall as it appears is nothing more than a decorative
arrangement, designed I think to lessen the effect of the raised portion of
land.

Its purpose is decorative, to allow the planting of a few shrubs alongside
where there should be a fence dividing the two properties.

Post by Simon Parker
the work should be completed
by a highly skilled professional, (not even a "run of the mill"
professional dry stone waller is considered suitably skilled); and
(6) Should his repair to the wall subsequently fail, (for any and all
values of "subsequently", with "fail" possibly resulting in damage up to
and including the complete destruction of his neighbour's property, or
certainly damage sufficient to make it uninhabitable until it is
repaired), then he will likely be liable both for the reinstatement /
rebuild cost of his neighbour's property and for reasonable costs they
incur whilst it is being rebuilt, (hotel, storage fees, etc.).
Currently, he has no liability and any exposure to risk, (e.g. should
the wall fail and fall into his garden and / or damage his home), is his
neighbour's not his.
He's looking to voluntarily expose himself to a liability that could
range from six figures for legal costs into seven figures for rebuild
costs with the absolute worst case scenario being his death.

Well, perhaps if you saw it! I've posted a couple of pics that might help
explain.

Post by Simon Parker
I don't think one needs to be legally qualified to realise that this is
not a good deal and certainly not one any sensible person would
recommend taking.
As I said at the outset, I am both shocked and dismayed that the OP is
still talking about a DIY rebuild.

I wouldn't consider trying to do anything with a structural wall - doubly so
if it affected somebody else. The wall in question is to my understanding not
structural.

[Roger Hayter]

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker

Post by Martin Brown

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by billy bookcase
Dry stone walls up to 1.5m high can be reinstated following guidelines
issued by the Dry Stone Walling Association but over 1.5m may require
http://www.dswa.org.uk/leaflets.asp
unquote

https://www.dswa.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Retaining-
spec-2020.pdf

Although I really wouldn't want to rely on a a dry stone retaining wall

I've tried to stress that this wall shouldn't be retaining. It's on my land
and has no business retaining my neighbour's land.
The boundary, which is 50cm or so back from the wall, is where (IIUC) the
retaining should happen.
These pictures may help (I'll take them down in a day or so)
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B1m5kuVsbG0y4nV

Post by Simon Parker

Post by Martin Brown
that had been installed by anyone other than an expert dry stone waller.
There is a real skill in picking the right piece for each location and
making the base spread sufficient to support the structure itself and
*all* of the soil behind it. Time will eventually take its toll.
It is all too easy for an amateur to leave gaps that are too big and not
properly interlock the stones in a way that precludes them from moving.
You could end up with a pile of rubble (which is the evolutionary fate
of free standing dry stone walls exposed to the elements and livestock).

I confess that I'm both shocked and dismayed in equal measure that the
OP is still talking of a DIY rebuild given the comments to this thread,

I have discussed it with an experienced dry stone waller, and have a friend
who's done similar.

Post by Simon Parker
(1) Maintenance of the wall is most likely his neighbour's responsibility;

I still don't think it is. The wall is well within my property. I would
stress: the dry stone wall shouldn't be retaining. The retaining should happen
at the boundary. It is a purely decorative fixture.
It's what's behind the wall, at the boundary 50cm back from my wall, that's my
concern. When the houses were built (c.1900) there would have been some method
of retaining my neighbour's land. My concern - not evidenced, but common-sense
informed - is that the original method of retaining my neighbour's land has
become compromised.
I accept of course that there is a possibility that my dry stone wall is an
original part of the properties, and was built to be retaining. Maybe
regulations over 100 years back allowed such an arrangement. I think that's
unlikely, though, and would surely have been picked up at the conveyancing
stage..

Post by Simon Parker
(2) Any work on the wall must comply with the Party Wall etc. Act. which
includes serving notice, along with surveyors reports and costings with
a surveyor having estimated the reinstatement cost at around £60,000
which many / most / almost everyone (delete as applicable) would
consider to be beyond the scope of the average DIYer;

Yes, I think work at the retaining boundary will be needed. And it's now
become urgent as has impacted on the 3m or so section of the 10m dry stone
wall.

Post by Simon Parker
(3) Legal costs in the event of a dispute should he attempt a DIY repair
and there's an issue during the repair will likely be in the six figure
range;

Yes, thanks, that penny's dropped. I don't intend to attempt anything until
I've discussed it with my neighbour, and I'm as certain as I can be concerning
liability.

Post by Simon Parker
(4) It is unlikely that the existing structure meets current regulations
so it will likely need upgrading when being rebuilt;

Well, the whole 20m section along the boundary is at best compromised.

Post by Simon Parker
(5) Given the size and purpose of the wall,

I would stress that the wall as it appears is nothing more than a decorative
arrangement, designed I think to lessen the effect of the raised portion of
land.
Its purpose is decorative, to allow the planting of a few shrubs alongside
where there should be a fence dividing the two properties.

Post by Simon Parker
the work should be completed
by a highly skilled professional, (not even a "run of the mill"
professional dry stone waller is considered suitably skilled); and
(6) Should his repair to the wall subsequently fail, (for any and all
values of "subsequently", with "fail" possibly resulting in damage up to
and including the complete destruction of his neighbour's property, or
certainly damage sufficient to make it uninhabitable until it is
repaired), then he will likely be liable both for the reinstatement /
rebuild cost of his neighbour's property and for reasonable costs they
incur whilst it is being rebuilt, (hotel, storage fees, etc.).
Currently, he has no liability and any exposure to risk, (e.g. should
the wall fail and fall into his garden and / or damage his home), is his
neighbour's not his.
He's looking to voluntarily expose himself to a liability that could
range from six figures for legal costs into seven figures for rebuild
costs with the absolute worst case scenario being his death.

Well, perhaps if you saw it! I've posted a couple of pics that might help
explain.

Post by Simon Parker
I don't think one needs to be legally qualified to realise that this is
not a good deal and certainly not one any sensible person would
recommend taking.
As I said at the outset, I am both shocked and dismayed that the OP is
still talking about a DIY rebuild.

I wouldn't consider trying to do anything with a structural wall - doubly so
if it affected somebody else. The wall in question is to my understanding not
structural.

My own guess (obviously not a substitute for a formal joint survey, or
surveys, under the Party Wall legislation) is that the chance of any formal
retaining structure existing behind the visible walls is close to zero and
that the brick wall is making a serious attempt to crack and fall down under
the pressure behind it. The whole point of the party wall law is that
important structures for the integrity of property on land A may in fact be
situated on land B - the fact they are on land B is no a priori reason to
suppose they are not vital for land A. Nor does it absolve the owner of land B
from any responsibility not to interfere with their supporting function.

[Jon Ribbens]

Post by RJH

Post by Martin Brown
Although I really wouldn't want to rely on a a dry stone retaining wall

I've tried to stress that this wall shouldn't be retaining. It's on my land
and has no business retaining my neighbour's land.
The boundary, which is 50cm or so back from the wall, is where (IIUC) the
retaining should happen.
These pictures may help (I'll take them down in a day or so)
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B1m5kuVsbG0y4nV

Oh! That's not what I was imagining from your descriptions *at all*.
That makes it look like the dry stone wall has basically nothing to do
with anything, the whole and entire issue is the brick wall. And why
are you saying you're not sure what is retaining your neighbour's land,
when it is quite clearly that brick wall? Or do you have some reason to
believe that the brick wall doesn't continue behind the stone-walled
section?

[billy bookcase]

Post by Jon Ribbens

Post by RJH

Post by Martin Brown
Although I really wouldn't want to rely on a a dry stone retaining wall

I've tried to stress that this wall shouldn't be retaining. It's on my land
and has no business retaining my neighbour's land.
The boundary, which is 50cm or so back from the wall, is where (IIUC) the
retaining should happen.
These pictures may help (I'll take them down in a day or so)
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B1m5kuVsbG0y4nV

Oh! That's not what I was imagining from your descriptions *at all*.

Which, with all due respect to the OP, is not what I was expecting
either.

Which was a sloping field with maybe a cottage in the background and
possibly a few sheep, and views of the rolling Yorkshire Dales in the
distance.


bb

[Roger Hayter]

Post by Jon Ribbens

Post by RJH

Post by Martin Brown
Although I really wouldn't want to rely on a a dry stone retaining wall

I've tried to stress that this wall shouldn't be retaining. It's on my land
and has no business retaining my neighbour's land.
The boundary, which is 50cm or so back from the wall, is where (IIUC) the
retaining should happen.
These pictures may help (I'll take them down in a day or so)
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B1m5kuVsbG0y4nV

Oh! That's not what I was imagining from your descriptions *at all*.
That makes it look like the dry stone wall has basically nothing to do
with anything, the whole and entire issue is the brick wall. And why
are you saying you're not sure what is retaining your neighbour's land,
when it is quite clearly that brick wall? Or do you have some reason to
believe that the brick wall doesn't continue behind the stone-walled
section?

We are told that the stone wall is bulging outwards at the top. So either the
brick wall doesnt continue behind it or the brick wall is disintegrating.
Perhaps due to being continuously wet since the stone wall was built and the
mortar softening.

[Jon Ribbens]

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by Jon Ribbens

Post by RJH

Post by Martin Brown
Although I really wouldn't want to rely on a a dry stone retaining wall

I've tried to stress that this wall shouldn't be retaining. It's on my land
and has no business retaining my neighbour's land.
The boundary, which is 50cm or so back from the wall, is where (IIUC) the
retaining should happen.
These pictures may help (I'll take them down in a day or so)
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B1m5kuVsbG0y4nV

Oh! That's not what I was imagining from your descriptions *at all*.
That makes it look like the dry stone wall has basically nothing to do
with anything, the whole and entire issue is the brick wall. And why
are you saying you're not sure what is retaining your neighbour's land,
when it is quite clearly that brick wall? Or do you have some reason to
believe that the brick wall doesn't continue behind the stone-walled
section?

We are told that the stone wall is bulging outwards at the top. So
either the brick wall doesnt continue behind it or the brick wall is
disintegrating. Perhaps due to being continuously wet since the stone
wall was built and the mortar softening.

You can see from the pictures that the brick wall has clearly moved,
because its face is no longer a flat surface. And that would of course
push the soil behind the stone wall which would in turn push the stone
wall. But the stone wall is still irrelevant, the issue is the brick
wall! Redoing the stone wall without fixing the brick wall would
presumably achieve nothing as it would continue to get pushed over.

[GB]

Post by Jon Ribbens

Post by RJH

Post by Martin Brown
Although I really wouldn't want to rely on a a dry stone retaining wall

I've tried to stress that this wall shouldn't be retaining. It's on my land
and has no business retaining my neighbour's land.
The boundary, which is 50cm or so back from the wall, is where (IIUC) the
retaining should happen.
These pictures may help (I'll take them down in a day or so)
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B1m5kuVsbG0y4nV

Oh! That's not what I was imagining from your descriptions *at all*.
That makes it look like the dry stone wall has basically nothing to do
with anything, the whole and entire issue is the brick wall. And why
are you saying you're not sure what is retaining your neighbour's land,
when it is quite clearly that brick wall? Or do you have some reason to
believe that the brick wall doesn't continue behind the stone-walled
section?

It looks like that somebody has built a waist-height ornamental
flowerbed against the brick retaining wall. Even so, for all the reasons
Simon has posted, I wouldn't touch it.

For example, although the flowerbed *ought* not to be supporting the
brick wall, it may be the only thing holding it up at the moment.

[Martin Brown]

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker

Post by Martin Brown

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by billy bookcase
Dry stone walls up to 1.5m high can be reinstated following guidelines
issued by the Dry Stone Walling Association but over 1.5m may require
http://www.dswa.org.uk/leaflets.asp
unquote

https://www.dswa.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Retaining-
spec-2020.pdf

Although I really wouldn't want to rely on a a dry stone retaining wall

I've tried to stress that this wall shouldn't be retaining. It's on my land
and has no business retaining my neighbour's land.
The boundary, which is 50cm or so back from the wall, is where (IIUC) the
retaining should happen.
These pictures may help (I'll take them down in a day or so)
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B1m5kuVsbG0y4nV

They are somewhat at odds with your description or rather my imagining
of your description. I was expecting to see a rural 6' tall dry stone
wall a century or more old that was entering decrepitude with a garden
path and lawn at the higher level. Instead it is a close build house and
the brick "retaining" wall behind your flower bed is ready to fall and
kill you when you try to work on your by the look of it 2'6 high
actually mortared garden wall pretending to be a dry stone wall.

Most houses where I live have erratic stones and parts of a former manor
house in their garden as dry stone retaining walls for level shifts and
I expected that your situation was similar but a lot higher. It was
commonly done to make a level building plot from sloping ground. Most
round here are about 2' high at most.

But it isn't anything like that and you are in much more danger by doing
something yourself (which is probably not the right thing) than I had
ever imagined. Your existing structure will have to be destroyed for the
foundations and footings of the neighbours retaining wall to be rebuilt.

In the meantime it is not safe to use the path at the lower level.

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker

Post by Martin Brown
that had been installed by anyone other than an expert dry stone waller.
There is a real skill in picking the right piece for each location and
making the base spread sufficient to support the structure itself and
*all* of the soil behind it. Time will eventually take its toll.
It is all too easy for an amateur to leave gaps that are too big and not
properly interlock the stones in a way that precludes them from moving.
You could end up with a pile of rubble (which is the evolutionary fate
of free standing dry stone walls exposed to the elements and livestock).

I confess that I'm both shocked and dismayed in equal measure that the
OP is still talking of a DIY rebuild given the comments to this thread,

I have discussed it with an experienced dry stone waller, and have a friend
who's done similar.

Post by Simon Parker
(1) Maintenance of the wall is most likely his neighbour's responsibility;

I still don't think it is. The wall is well within my property. I would
stress: the dry stone wall shouldn't be retaining. The retaining should happen
at the boundary. It is a purely decorative fixture.

It is the big brick wall behind your wall that is going fall on you and
kill you while you try to work on your "dry stone" wall. That big slab
has about an inch of shift on already. Remove some of the additional
support low down that your wall provides and there is every chance it
will come down on you. You may not get any warning when it does.

Post by RJH
It's what's behind the wall, at the boundary 50cm back from my wall, that's my
concern. When the houses were built (c.1900) there would have been some method
of retaining my neighbour's land. My concern - not evidenced, but common-sense
informed - is that the original method of retaining my neighbour's land has
become compromised.

The tall brick wall behind is failing and is a danger to anyone near it.
It doesn't look to meet modern building spec either so any replacement
will need stronger reinforcing piers every so often to make it harder
for it to fail in the way that it has.

Post by RJH
I accept of course that there is a possibility that my dry stone wall is an
original part of the properties, and was built to be retaining. Maybe
regulations over 100 years back allowed such an arrangement. I think that's
unlikely, though, and would surely have been picked up at the conveyancing
stage..

Your description of the situation leaves a lot to be desired.

Your "dry stone" wall isn't and is 3' high at most. The level shift is
~4' and the failing brick wall is ~6' (which looks to be 70's brick
build to me). So it has been replaced at least once.

If you leave well alone and/or inform your insurers they will serve
notice on your neighbour to repair his brick retaining wall then it
becomes his and his insurers problem not yours.

Any work that you do do now will be destroyed when the boundary wall is
redone. Worst case what you do yourself will be blamed for causing the
failure and expensive repair of the boundary wall.

You should probably not go past it until it is repaired. I had a 6' long
chunk of 4' high brick retaining wall fail once and it went with a hell
of a bang. Things in its way were crushed out of all recognition.

[Roger Hayter]

Post by Martin Brown

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker

Post by Martin Brown

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by billy bookcase
Dry stone walls up to 1.5m high can be reinstated following guidelines
issued by the Dry Stone Walling Association but over 1.5m may require
http://www.dswa.org.uk/leaflets.asp
unquote

https://www.dswa.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Retaining-
spec-2020.pdf

Although I really wouldn't want to rely on a a dry stone retaining wall

I've tried to stress that this wall shouldn't be retaining. It's on my land
and has no business retaining my neighbour's land.
The boundary, which is 50cm or so back from the wall, is where (IIUC) the
retaining should happen.
These pictures may help (I'll take them down in a day or so)
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B1m5kuVsbG0y4nV

They are somewhat at odds with your description or rather my imagining
of your description. I was expecting to see a rural 6' tall dry stone
wall a century or more old that was entering decrepitude with a garden
path and lawn at the higher level. Instead it is a close build house and
the brick "retaining" wall behind your flower bed is ready to fall and
kill you when you try to work on your by the look of it 2'6 high
actually mortared garden wall pretending to be a dry stone wall.
Most houses where I live have erratic stones and parts of a former manor
house in their garden as dry stone retaining walls for level shifts and
I expected that your situation was similar but a lot higher. It was
commonly done to make a level building plot from sloping ground. Most
round here are about 2' high at most.
But it isn't anything like that and you are in much more danger by doing
something yourself (which is probably not the right thing) than I had
ever imagined. Your existing structure will have to be destroyed for the
foundations and footings of the neighbours retaining wall to be rebuilt.
In the meantime it is not safe to use the path at the lower level.

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker

Post by Martin Brown
that had been installed by anyone other than an expert dry stone waller.
There is a real skill in picking the right piece for each location and
making the base spread sufficient to support the structure itself and
*all* of the soil behind it. Time will eventually take its toll.
It is all too easy for an amateur to leave gaps that are too big and not
properly interlock the stones in a way that precludes them from moving.
You could end up with a pile of rubble (which is the evolutionary fate
of free standing dry stone walls exposed to the elements and livestock).

I confess that I'm both shocked and dismayed in equal measure that the
OP is still talking of a DIY rebuild given the comments to this thread,

I have discussed it with an experienced dry stone waller, and have a friend
who's done similar.

Post by Simon Parker
(1) Maintenance of the wall is most likely his neighbour's responsibility;

I still don't think it is. The wall is well within my property. I would
stress: the dry stone wall shouldn't be retaining. The retaining should happen
at the boundary. It is a purely decorative fixture.

It is the big brick wall behind your wall that is going fall on you and
kill you while you try to work on your "dry stone" wall. That big slab
has about an inch of shift on already. Remove some of the additional
support low down that your wall provides and there is every chance it
will come down on you. You may not get any warning when it does.

Post by RJH
It's what's behind the wall, at the boundary 50cm back from my wall, that's my
concern. When the houses were built (c.1900) there would have been some method
of retaining my neighbour's land. My concern - not evidenced, but common-sense
informed - is that the original method of retaining my neighbour's land has
become compromised.

The tall brick wall behind is failing and is a danger to anyone near it.
It doesn't look to meet modern building spec either so any replacement
will need stronger reinforcing piers every so often to make it harder
for it to fail in the way that it has.

Post by RJH
I accept of course that there is a possibility that my dry stone wall is an
original part of the properties, and was built to be retaining. Maybe
regulations over 100 years back allowed such an arrangement. I think that's
unlikely, though, and would surely have been picked up at the conveyancing
stage..

Your description of the situation leaves a lot to be desired.
Your "dry stone" wall isn't and is 3' high at most. The level shift is
~4' and the failing brick wall is ~6' (which looks to be 70's brick
build to me). So it has been replaced at least once.
If you leave well alone and/or inform your insurers they will serve
notice on your neighbour to repair his brick retaining wall then it
becomes his and his insurers problem not yours.
Any work that you do do now will be destroyed when the boundary wall is
redone. Worst case what you do yourself will be blamed for causing the
failure and expensive repair of the boundary wall.
You should probably not go past it until it is repaired. I had a 6' long
chunk of 4' high brick retaining wall fail once and it went with a hell
of a bang. Things in its way were crushed out of all recognition.

If you look at all the photographs, on the other side of the gate from the
raised bed there is a "dry stone" wall the full height of the retaining wall.
Whether there is a brick wall behind this, and what condition it is in, is not
clear. But in the sense that you can see the top of the stone wall has moved
out the danger here may well be higher.

[Spike]

Post by Martin Brown

Post by RJH
I've tried to stress that this wall shouldn't be retaining. It's on my land
and has no business retaining my neighbour's land.
The boundary, which is 50cm or so back from the wall, is where (IIUC) the
retaining should happen.
These pictures may help (I'll take them down in a day or so)
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B1m5kuVsbG0y4nV

They are somewhat at odds with your description or rather my imagining
of your description. I was expecting to see a rural 6' tall dry stone
wall a century or more old that was entering decrepitude with a garden
path and lawn at the higher level. Instead it is a close build house and
the brick "retaining" wall behind your flower bed is ready to fall and
kill you when you try to work on your by the look of it 2'6 high
actually mortared garden wall pretending to be a dry stone wall.
Most houses where I live have erratic stones and parts of a former manor
house in their garden as dry stone retaining walls for level shifts and
I expected that your situation was similar but a lot higher. It was
commonly done to make a level building plot from sloping ground. Most
round here are about 2' high at most.
But it isn't anything like that and you are in much more danger by doing
something yourself (which is probably not the right thing) than I had
ever imagined. Your existing structure will have to be destroyed for the
foundations and footings of the neighbours retaining wall to be rebuilt.
In the meantime it is not safe to use the path at the lower level.

I think you should have written that in capitals.

Post by Martin Brown

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker

Post by Martin Brown
that had been installed by anyone other than an expert dry stone waller.
There is a real skill in picking the right piece for each location and
making the base spread sufficient to support the structure itself and
*all* of the soil behind it. Time will eventually take its toll.
It is all too easy for an amateur to leave gaps that are too big and not
properly interlock the stones in a way that precludes them from moving.
You could end up with a pile of rubble (which is the evolutionary fate
of free standing dry stone walls exposed to the elements and livestock).

I confess that I'm both shocked and dismayed in equal measure that the
OP is still talking of a DIY rebuild given the comments to this thread,

I have discussed it with an experienced dry stone waller, and have a friend
who's done similar.

Post by Simon Parker
(1) Maintenance of the wall is most likely his neighbour's responsibility;

I still don't think it is. The wall is well within my property. I would
stress: the dry stone wall shouldn't be retaining. The retaining should happen
at the boundary. It is a purely decorative fixture.

It is the big brick wall behind your wall that is going fall on you and
kill you while you try to work on your "dry stone" wall. That big slab
has about an inch of shift on already. Remove some of the additional
support low down that your wall provides and there is every chance it
will come down on you. You may not get any warning when it does.

Post by RJH
It's what's behind the wall, at the boundary 50cm back from my wall, that's my
concern. When the houses were built (c.1900) there would have been some method
of retaining my neighbour's land. My concern - not evidenced, but common-sense
informed - is that the original method of retaining my neighbour's land has
become compromised.

The tall brick wall behind is failing and is a danger to anyone near it.
It doesn't look to meet modern building spec either so any replacement
will need stronger reinforcing piers every so often to make it harder
for it to fail in the way that it has.

Post by RJH
I accept of course that there is a possibility that my dry stone wall is an
original part of the properties, and was built to be retaining. Maybe
regulations over 100 years back allowed such an arrangement. I think that's
unlikely, though, and would surely have been picked up at the conveyancing
stage..

Your description of the situation leaves a lot to be desired.
Your "dry stone" wall isn't and is 3' high at most. The level shift is
~4' and the failing brick wall is ~6' (which looks to be 70's brick
build to me). So it has been replaced at least once.
If you leave well alone and/or inform your insurers they will serve
notice on your neighbour to repair his brick retaining wall then it
becomes his and his insurers problem not yours.
Any work that you do do now will be destroyed when the boundary wall is
redone.
Worst case what you do yourself will be blamed for causing the
failure and expensive repair of the boundary wall.

That should be in capitals as well.

Post by Martin Brown
You should probably not go past it until it is repaired.

And that.

Post by Martin Brown
I had a 6' long
chunk of 4' high brick retaining wall fail once and it went with a hell
of a bang. Things in its way were crushed out of all recognition.

The OP seems to be reluctant to accept that on the basis of what we have
been told and shown, he should DO NOTHING AT ALL except inform his
insurers of the situation. Staying out of that side passage is also a very
good idea on two fronts: he won’t get killed should it collapse, and can’t
be blamed because he interfered with the wall.

Would not the local authority building people have an interest in this
potentially dangerous structure? They might be able to enforce some action.

The OP’s insurers will surely want to be told of this risk, as if that wall
goes it could well cause structural damage to the OP’s building, especially
if the neighbour’s house goes with it.

One of our neighbours had a 20’ long 4’ high garden wall go that retained
their terracing. It was quite loud and made the ground shake. The OP’s wall
could be an order of magnitude greater.

[Martin Brown]

Post by Spike
One of our neighbours had a 20’ long 4’ high garden wall go that retained
their terracing. It was quite loud and made the ground shake. The OP’s wall
could be an order of magnitude greater.

I think one of the problems here is that people who have never seen a
moderately tall retaining wall collapse or the aftermath cannot imagine
how sudden and violent it is.

Horse chestnut branches are another that go without warning in winter
storms. Even more so now that the nasty canker is killing them off.

[Roger Hayter]

Post by Martin Brown

Post by Spike
One of our neighbours had a 20’ long 4’ high garden wall go that retained
their terracing. It was quite loud and made the ground shake. The OP’s wall
could be an order of magnitude greater.

I think one of the problems here is that people who have never seen a
moderately tall retaining wall collapse or the aftermath cannot imagine
how sudden and violent it is.
Horse chestnut branches are another that go without warning in winter
storms. Even more so now that the nasty canker is killing them off.

Elm branches used to do that, even without the aid of storms. But that problem
seems to have solved itself.

[Simon Parker]

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker

Post by Martin Brown
Although I really wouldn't want to rely on a a dry stone retaining wall

I've tried to stress that this wall shouldn't be retaining. It's on my land
and has no business retaining my neighbour's land.

That isn't how the law on retaining walls works. They can be wholly on
your land, wholly on your neighbour's land or straddling the boundary.
It matters not. All three situations above are treated identically by
the law.

Post by RJH
The boundary, which is 50cm or so back from the wall, is where (IIUC) the
retaining should happen.
These pictures may help (I'll take them down in a day or so)
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B1m5kuVsbG0y4nV

I am neither a surveyor nor a structural or civil engineer, but I would
suggest that the brick wall is the retaining wall rather than the dry
stone wall although the presence of the dry stone wall may have been
factored into the calculations for the loading of the brick wall when it
was designed and constructed. I understand, possibly incorrectly, from
your previous posts that this brick wall was built in the last decade or
so, presumably at the same time as the neighbour's extension. What was
there prior to the brick wall being built?

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker

Post by Martin Brown
that had been installed by anyone other than an expert dry stone waller.
There is a real skill in picking the right piece for each location and
making the base spread sufficient to support the structure itself and
*all* of the soil behind it. Time will eventually take its toll.
It is all too easy for an amateur to leave gaps that are too big and not
properly interlock the stones in a way that precludes them from moving.
You could end up with a pile of rubble (which is the evolutionary fate
of free standing dry stone walls exposed to the elements and livestock).

I confess that I'm both shocked and dismayed in equal measure that the
OP is still talking of a DIY rebuild given the comments to this thread,

I have discussed it with an experienced dry stone waller, and have a friend
who's done similar.

I would respectfully suggest that your discussions need to be with:

(a) a surveyor (this may already have happened as you have a report with
costings);

(b) your neighbour to ascertain whether or not they are happy to proceed
with the work detailed in the surveyor's report and that they agree to
pay for it, (having served the relevant notices required by the Party
Wall etc. Act.);

(c) a lawyer to proceed with issuing (if your neighbour refuses to do
so), or responding to, said relevant notices; and

(d) trades people to undertake the work detailed in the surveyor's
report if your neighbour agrees for you to do this rather than them.

Options (c) and (d) could be replaced with an alternative option (c) namely:

(c) your insurers to inform them that the retaining wall is in imminent
danger of collapse and needs urgent works undertaking as a matter of
priority to prevent it collapsing onto your property.

I would expect them to have a PWA notice served extremely quickly.

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker
(1) Maintenance of the wall is most likely his neighbour's responsibility;

I still don't think it is. The wall is well within my property. I would
stress: the dry stone wall shouldn't be retaining. The retaining should happen
at the boundary. It is a purely decorative fixture.

The dry stone wall may well be stabilising the brick wall at this stage.
(I've said it already, but it is worth repeating - I am neither a
surveyor nor a structural or civil engineer). Personally, I would not
touch the dry stone wall in case doing so precipitates the collapse of
the retaining wall, (or at least does so to an extent that it is
arguable that this is what has happened), as that will land you firmly
in the potential six figure legal cost territory I've previously referenced.

Post by RJH
It's what's behind the wall, at the boundary 50cm back from my wall, that's my
concern. When the houses were built (c.1900) there would have been some method
of retaining my neighbour's land. My concern - not evidenced, but common-sense
informed - is that the original method of retaining my neighbour's land has
become compromised.

IMO, the brick wall is the retaining wall. (Insert reminder than I am
neither a surveyor nor a structural or civil engineer.) The only way a
wall of that type would work in these circumstances is if it were an
anchored wall. If it is an anchored wall, it is likely either that one
or more anchors have failed, or that an insufficient number of anchors
were installed / they were installed incorrectly.

It is possible it *could* be a gravity wall, which necessitates having a
sloping face on the front, but this could only be the case *if* the
additional soil and dry stone wall were considered an integral part of
the retaining wall which is a strong reason not to touch the dry stone wall.

Post by RJH
I accept of course that there is a possibility that my dry stone wall is an
original part of the properties, and was built to be retaining. Maybe
regulations over 100 years back allowed such an arrangement. I think that's
unlikely, though, and would surely have been picked up at the conveyancing
stage..

Having now seen the pictures, I respectfully suggest that the dry stone
wall is the least of your worries. The imminent complete failure of the
retaining wall likely resulting in significant damage to your property
is where I would suggest you need to be concentrating your efforts as a
matter of the utmost urgency.

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker
(2) Any work on the wall must comply with the Party Wall etc. Act. which
includes serving notice, along with surveyors reports and costings with
a surveyor having estimated the reinstatement cost at around £60,000
which many / most / almost everyone (delete as applicable) would
consider to be beyond the scope of the average DIYer;

Yes, I think work at the retaining boundary will be needed. And it's now
become urgent as has impacted on the 3m or so section of the 10m dry stone
wall.

You think work will be needed? I would recommend having another look,
or asking your "waller friend" for his professional opinion on the
integrity of the brick retaining wall and the likely outcome when,
rather than if, that fails.

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker
(3) Legal costs in the event of a dispute should he attempt a DIY repair
and there's an issue during the repair will likely be in the six figure
range;

Yes, thanks, that penny's dropped. I don't intend to attempt anything until
I've discussed it with my neighbour, and I'm as certain as I can be concerning
liability.

Having now seen the images, it is absolutely certain that the PWA
applies. The option of DIY work is off the table, unless and until you
can convince a surveyor (if jointly appointed), or two surveyors (if
appointed individually) that you are suitably qualified, competent and
capable of carrying out the work with the requisite skill required.

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker
(4) It is unlikely that the existing structure meets current regulations
so it will likely need upgrading when being rebuilt;

Well, the whole 20m section along the boundary is at best compromised.

Indeed. I would suggest the figure previously suggested by your
surveyor is in a similar position to that 20m section. :-)

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker
(5) Given the size and purpose of the wall,

I would stress that the wall as it appears is nothing more than a decorative
arrangement, designed I think to lessen the effect of the raised portion of
land.
Its purpose is decorative, to allow the planting of a few shrubs alongside
where there should be a fence dividing the two properties.

Is that your professional opinion as a civil or structural engineer?
Otherwise, it is likely to be irrelevant should the worse happen, which
seems ever more likely from the photos. :-(

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker
the work should be completed
by a highly skilled professional, (not even a "run of the mill"
professional dry stone waller is considered suitably skilled); and
(6) Should his repair to the wall subsequently fail, (for any and all
values of "subsequently", with "fail" possibly resulting in damage up to
and including the complete destruction of his neighbour's property, or
certainly damage sufficient to make it uninhabitable until it is
repaired), then he will likely be liable both for the reinstatement /
rebuild cost of his neighbour's property and for reasonable costs they
incur whilst it is being rebuilt, (hotel, storage fees, etc.).
Currently, he has no liability and any exposure to risk, (e.g. should
the wall fail and fall into his garden and / or damage his home), is his
neighbour's not his.
He's looking to voluntarily expose himself to a liability that could
range from six figures for legal costs into seven figures for rebuild
costs with the absolute worst case scenario being his death.

Well, perhaps if you saw it! I've posted a couple of pics that might help
explain.

I've looked at them - in detail. Everything in this post and any post
subsequent to it is having seen the photos and taken the contents
thereof into account.

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker
I don't think one needs to be legally qualified to realise that this is
not a good deal and certainly not one any sensible person would
recommend taking.
As I said at the outset, I am both shocked and dismayed that the OP is
still talking about a DIY rebuild.

I wouldn't consider trying to do anything with a structural wall - doubly so
if it affected somebody else. The wall in question is to my understanding not
structural.

Your understanding of the matter will be irrelevant should the worst
happen because either (a) you'll be dead or (b) professionals will be
busy writing expensive reports for the inevitable court case which will
supplant anything you have to say on the matter.

I hate to sound like a doom monger, but my default position is to
exercise an abundance of caution.

Even if I deviate from my default position to a more neutral position, I
would still be running (rather than walking) away from touching anything
to do with this, with the exception of serving or responding to a notice
served under the PWA, having first had a full and frank conversation
with the neighbour telling them that if I have not received a PWA notice
by the end of next week, I'll be issuing my own the following Monday.

Regards

S.P.

[Roger Hayter]

Post by Simon Parker

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker

Post by Martin Brown
Although I really wouldn't want to rely on a a dry stone retaining wall

I've tried to stress that this wall shouldn't be retaining. It's on my land
and has no business retaining my neighbour's land.

That isn't how the law on retaining walls works. They can be wholly on
your land, wholly on your neighbour's land or straddling the boundary.
It matters not. All three situations above are treated identically by
the law.

Post by RJH
The boundary, which is 50cm or so back from the wall, is where (IIUC) the
retaining should happen.
These pictures may help (I'll take them down in a day or so)
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B1m5kuVsbG0y4nV

I am neither a surveyor nor a structural or civil engineer, but I would
suggest that the brick wall is the retaining wall rather than the dry
stone wall although the presence of the dry stone wall may have been
factored into the calculations for the loading of the brick wall when it
was designed and constructed. I understand, possibly incorrectly, from
your previous posts that this brick wall was built in the last decade or
so, presumably at the same time as the neighbour's extension. What was
there prior to the brick wall being built?

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker

Post by Martin Brown
that had been installed by anyone other than an expert dry stone waller.
There is a real skill in picking the right piece for each location and
making the base spread sufficient to support the structure itself and
*all* of the soil behind it. Time will eventually take its toll.
It is all too easy for an amateur to leave gaps that are too big and not
properly interlock the stones in a way that precludes them from moving.
You could end up with a pile of rubble (which is the evolutionary fate
of free standing dry stone walls exposed to the elements and livestock).

I confess that I'm both shocked and dismayed in equal measure that the
OP is still talking of a DIY rebuild given the comments to this thread,

I have discussed it with an experienced dry stone waller, and have a friend
who's done similar.

(a) a surveyor (this may already have happened as you have a report with
costings);
(b) your neighbour to ascertain whether or not they are happy to proceed
with the work detailed in the surveyor's report and that they agree to
pay for it, (having served the relevant notices required by the Party
Wall etc. Act.);
(c) a lawyer to proceed with issuing (if your neighbour refuses to do
so), or responding to, said relevant notices; and
(d) trades people to undertake the work detailed in the surveyor's
report if your neighbour agrees for you to do this rather than them.
(c) your insurers to inform them that the retaining wall is in imminent
danger of collapse and needs urgent works undertaking as a matter of
priority to prevent it collapsing onto your property.
I would expect them to have a PWA notice served extremely quickly.

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker
(1) Maintenance of the wall is most likely his neighbour's responsibility;

I still don't think it is. The wall is well within my property. I would
stress: the dry stone wall shouldn't be retaining. The retaining should happen
at the boundary. It is a purely decorative fixture.

The dry stone wall may well be stabilising the brick wall at this stage.
(I've said it already, but it is worth repeating - I am neither a
surveyor nor a structural or civil engineer). Personally, I would not
touch the dry stone wall in case doing so precipitates the collapse of
the retaining wall, (or at least does so to an extent that it is
arguable that this is what has happened), as that will land you firmly
in the potential six figure legal cost territory I've previously referenced.

Post by RJH
It's what's behind the wall, at the boundary 50cm back from my wall, that's my
concern. When the houses were built (c.1900) there would have been some method
of retaining my neighbour's land. My concern - not evidenced, but common-sense
informed - is that the original method of retaining my neighbour's land has
become compromised.

IMO, the brick wall is the retaining wall. (Insert reminder than I am
neither a surveyor nor a structural or civil engineer.) The only way a
wall of that type would work in these circumstances is if it were an
anchored wall. If it is an anchored wall, it is likely either that one
or more anchors have failed, or that an insufficient number of anchors
were installed / they were installed incorrectly.
It is possible it *could* be a gravity wall, which necessitates having a
sloping face on the front, but this could only be the case *if* the
additional soil and dry stone wall were considered an integral part of
the retaining wall which is a strong reason not to touch the dry stone wall.

Post by RJH
I accept of course that there is a possibility that my dry stone wall is an
original part of the properties, and was built to be retaining. Maybe
regulations over 100 years back allowed such an arrangement. I think that's
unlikely, though, and would surely have been picked up at the conveyancing
stage..

Having now seen the pictures, I respectfully suggest that the dry stone
wall is the least of your worries. The imminent complete failure of the
retaining wall likely resulting in significant damage to your property
is where I would suggest you need to be concentrating your efforts as a
matter of the utmost urgency.

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker
(2) Any work on the wall must comply with the Party Wall etc. Act. which
includes serving notice, along with surveyors reports and costings with
a surveyor having estimated the reinstatement cost at around £60,000
which many / most / almost everyone (delete as applicable) would
consider to be beyond the scope of the average DIYer;

Yes, I think work at the retaining boundary will be needed. And it's now
become urgent as has impacted on the 3m or so section of the 10m dry stone
wall.

You think work will be needed? I would recommend having another look,
or asking your "waller friend" for his professional opinion on the
integrity of the brick retaining wall and the likely outcome when,
rather than if, that fails.

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker
(3) Legal costs in the event of a dispute should he attempt a DIY repair
and there's an issue during the repair will likely be in the six figure
range;

Yes, thanks, that penny's dropped. I don't intend to attempt anything until
I've discussed it with my neighbour, and I'm as certain as I can be concerning
liability.

Having now seen the images, it is absolutely certain that the PWA
applies. The option of DIY work is off the table, unless and until you
can convince a surveyor (if jointly appointed), or two surveyors (if
appointed individually) that you are suitably qualified, competent and
capable of carrying out the work with the requisite skill required.

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker
(4) It is unlikely that the existing structure meets current regulations
so it will likely need upgrading when being rebuilt;

Well, the whole 20m section along the boundary is at best compromised.

Indeed. I would suggest the figure previously suggested by your
surveyor is in a similar position to that 20m section. :-)

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker
(5) Given the size and purpose of the wall,

I would stress that the wall as it appears is nothing more than a decorative
arrangement, designed I think to lessen the effect of the raised portion of
land.
Its purpose is decorative, to allow the planting of a few shrubs alongside
where there should be a fence dividing the two properties.

Is that your professional opinion as a civil or structural engineer?
Otherwise, it is likely to be irrelevant should the worse happen, which
seems ever more likely from the photos. :-(

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker
the work should be completed
by a highly skilled professional, (not even a "run of the mill"
professional dry stone waller is considered suitably skilled); and
(6) Should his repair to the wall subsequently fail, (for any and all
values of "subsequently", with "fail" possibly resulting in damage up to
and including the complete destruction of his neighbour's property, or
certainly damage sufficient to make it uninhabitable until it is
repaired), then he will likely be liable both for the reinstatement /
rebuild cost of his neighbour's property and for reasonable costs they
incur whilst it is being rebuilt, (hotel, storage fees, etc.).
Currently, he has no liability and any exposure to risk, (e.g. should
the wall fail and fall into his garden and / or damage his home), is his
neighbour's not his.
He's looking to voluntarily expose himself to a liability that could
range from six figures for legal costs into seven figures for rebuild
costs with the absolute worst case scenario being his death.

Well, perhaps if you saw it! I've posted a couple of pics that might help
explain.

I've looked at them - in detail. Everything in this post and any post
subsequent to it is having seen the photos and taken the contents
thereof into account.

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker
I don't think one needs to be legally qualified to realise that this is
not a good deal and certainly not one any sensible person would
recommend taking.
As I said at the outset, I am both shocked and dismayed that the OP is
still talking about a DIY rebuild.

I wouldn't consider trying to do anything with a structural wall - doubly so
if it affected somebody else. The wall in question is to my understanding not
structural.

Your understanding of the matter will be irrelevant should the worst
happen because either (a) you'll be dead or (b) professionals will be
busy writing expensive reports for the inevitable court case which will
supplant anything you have to say on the matter.
I hate to sound like a doom monger, but my default position is to
exercise an abundance of caution.
Even if I deviate from my default position to a more neutral position, I
would still be running (rather than walking) away from touching anything
to do with this, with the exception of serving or responding to a notice
served under the PWA, having first had a full and frank conversation
with the neighbour telling them that if I have not received a PWA notice
by the end of next week, I'll be issuing my own the following Monday.
Regards
S.P.

I am sorry to add to what is almost definitive summary, but I don't think you
quite spelled out in so many words that the OP would almost certainly be
acting unlawfully, in breach of the the PWA, if he did *anything* substantive
to the stone wall without going through the PWA procedure.

[Simon Parker]

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by Simon Parker

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker

Post by Martin Brown
Although I really wouldn't want to rely on a a dry stone retaining wall

I've tried to stress that this wall shouldn't be retaining. It's on my land
and has no business retaining my neighbour's land.

That isn't how the law on retaining walls works. They can be wholly on
your land, wholly on your neighbour's land or straddling the boundary.
It matters not. All three situations above are treated identically by
the law.

Post by RJH
The boundary, which is 50cm or so back from the wall, is where (IIUC) the
retaining should happen.
These pictures may help (I'll take them down in a day or so)
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B1m5kuVsbG0y4nV

I am neither a surveyor nor a structural or civil engineer, but I would
suggest that the brick wall is the retaining wall rather than the dry
stone wall although the presence of the dry stone wall may have been
factored into the calculations for the loading of the brick wall when it
was designed and constructed. I understand, possibly incorrectly, from
your previous posts that this brick wall was built in the last decade or
so, presumably at the same time as the neighbour's extension. What was
there prior to the brick wall being built?

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker

Post by Martin Brown
that had been installed by anyone other than an expert dry stone waller.
There is a real skill in picking the right piece for each location and
making the base spread sufficient to support the structure itself and
*all* of the soil behind it. Time will eventually take its toll.
It is all too easy for an amateur to leave gaps that are too big and not
properly interlock the stones in a way that precludes them from moving.
You could end up with a pile of rubble (which is the evolutionary fate
of free standing dry stone walls exposed to the elements and livestock).

I confess that I'm both shocked and dismayed in equal measure that the
OP is still talking of a DIY rebuild given the comments to this thread,

I have discussed it with an experienced dry stone waller, and have a friend
who's done similar.

(a) a surveyor (this may already have happened as you have a report with
costings);
(b) your neighbour to ascertain whether or not they are happy to proceed
with the work detailed in the surveyor's report and that they agree to
pay for it, (having served the relevant notices required by the Party
Wall etc. Act.);
(c) a lawyer to proceed with issuing (if your neighbour refuses to do
so), or responding to, said relevant notices; and
(d) trades people to undertake the work detailed in the surveyor's
report if your neighbour agrees for you to do this rather than them.
(c) your insurers to inform them that the retaining wall is in imminent
danger of collapse and needs urgent works undertaking as a matter of
priority to prevent it collapsing onto your property.
I would expect them to have a PWA notice served extremely quickly.

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker
(1) Maintenance of the wall is most likely his neighbour's responsibility;

I still don't think it is. The wall is well within my property. I would
stress: the dry stone wall shouldn't be retaining. The retaining should happen
at the boundary. It is a purely decorative fixture.

The dry stone wall may well be stabilising the brick wall at this stage.
(I've said it already, but it is worth repeating - I am neither a
surveyor nor a structural or civil engineer). Personally, I would not
touch the dry stone wall in case doing so precipitates the collapse of
the retaining wall, (or at least does so to an extent that it is
arguable that this is what has happened), as that will land you firmly
in the potential six figure legal cost territory I've previously referenced.

Post by RJH
It's what's behind the wall, at the boundary 50cm back from my wall, that's my
concern. When the houses were built (c.1900) there would have been some method
of retaining my neighbour's land. My concern - not evidenced, but common-sense
informed - is that the original method of retaining my neighbour's land has
become compromised.

IMO, the brick wall is the retaining wall. (Insert reminder than I am
neither a surveyor nor a structural or civil engineer.) The only way a
wall of that type would work in these circumstances is if it were an
anchored wall. If it is an anchored wall, it is likely either that one
or more anchors have failed, or that an insufficient number of anchors
were installed / they were installed incorrectly.
It is possible it *could* be a gravity wall, which necessitates having a
sloping face on the front, but this could only be the case *if* the
additional soil and dry stone wall were considered an integral part of
the retaining wall which is a strong reason not to touch the dry stone wall.

Post by RJH
I accept of course that there is a possibility that my dry stone wall is an
original part of the properties, and was built to be retaining. Maybe
regulations over 100 years back allowed such an arrangement. I think that's
unlikely, though, and would surely have been picked up at the conveyancing
stage..

Having now seen the pictures, I respectfully suggest that the dry stone
wall is the least of your worries. The imminent complete failure of the
retaining wall likely resulting in significant damage to your property
is where I would suggest you need to be concentrating your efforts as a
matter of the utmost urgency.

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker
(2) Any work on the wall must comply with the Party Wall etc. Act. which
includes serving notice, along with surveyors reports and costings with
a surveyor having estimated the reinstatement cost at around £60,000
which many / most / almost everyone (delete as applicable) would
consider to be beyond the scope of the average DIYer;

Yes, I think work at the retaining boundary will be needed. And it's now
become urgent as has impacted on the 3m or so section of the 10m dry stone
wall.

You think work will be needed? I would recommend having another look,
or asking your "waller friend" for his professional opinion on the
integrity of the brick retaining wall and the likely outcome when,
rather than if, that fails.

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker
(3) Legal costs in the event of a dispute should he attempt a DIY repair
and there's an issue during the repair will likely be in the six figure
range;

Yes, thanks, that penny's dropped. I don't intend to attempt anything until
I've discussed it with my neighbour, and I'm as certain as I can be concerning
liability.

Having now seen the images, it is absolutely certain that the PWA
applies. The option of DIY work is off the table, unless and until you
can convince a surveyor (if jointly appointed), or two surveyors (if
appointed individually) that you are suitably qualified, competent and
capable of carrying out the work with the requisite skill required.

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker
(4) It is unlikely that the existing structure meets current regulations
so it will likely need upgrading when being rebuilt;

Well, the whole 20m section along the boundary is at best compromised.

Indeed. I would suggest the figure previously suggested by your
surveyor is in a similar position to that 20m section. :-)

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker
(5) Given the size and purpose of the wall,

I would stress that the wall as it appears is nothing more than a decorative
arrangement, designed I think to lessen the effect of the raised portion of
land.
Its purpose is decorative, to allow the planting of a few shrubs alongside
where there should be a fence dividing the two properties.

Is that your professional opinion as a civil or structural engineer?
Otherwise, it is likely to be irrelevant should the worse happen, which
seems ever more likely from the photos. :-(

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker
the work should be completed
by a highly skilled professional, (not even a "run of the mill"
professional dry stone waller is considered suitably skilled); and
(6) Should his repair to the wall subsequently fail, (for any and all
values of "subsequently", with "fail" possibly resulting in damage up to
and including the complete destruction of his neighbour's property, or
certainly damage sufficient to make it uninhabitable until it is
repaired), then he will likely be liable both for the reinstatement /
rebuild cost of his neighbour's property and for reasonable costs they
incur whilst it is being rebuilt, (hotel, storage fees, etc.).
Currently, he has no liability and any exposure to risk, (e.g. should
the wall fail and fall into his garden and / or damage his home), is his
neighbour's not his.
He's looking to voluntarily expose himself to a liability that could
range from six figures for legal costs into seven figures for rebuild
costs with the absolute worst case scenario being his death.

Well, perhaps if you saw it! I've posted a couple of pics that might help
explain.

I've looked at them - in detail. Everything in this post and any post
subsequent to it is having seen the photos and taken the contents
thereof into account.

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker
I don't think one needs to be legally qualified to realise that this is
not a good deal and certainly not one any sensible person would
recommend taking.
As I said at the outset, I am both shocked and dismayed that the OP is
still talking about a DIY rebuild.

I wouldn't consider trying to do anything with a structural wall - doubly so
if it affected somebody else. The wall in question is to my understanding not
structural.

Your understanding of the matter will be irrelevant should the worst
happen because either (a) you'll be dead or (b) professionals will be
busy writing expensive reports for the inevitable court case which will
supplant anything you have to say on the matter.
I hate to sound like a doom monger, but my default position is to
exercise an abundance of caution.
Even if I deviate from my default position to a more neutral position, I
would still be running (rather than walking) away from touching anything
to do with this, with the exception of serving or responding to a notice
served under the PWA, having first had a full and frank conversation
with the neighbour telling them that if I have not received a PWA notice
by the end of next week, I'll be issuing my own the following Monday.
Regards
S.P.

I am sorry to add to what is almost definitive summary, but I don't think you
quite spelled out in so many words that the OP would almost certainly be
acting unlawfully, in breach of the the PWA, if he did *anything* substantive
to the stone wall without going through the PWA procedure.

I thought that was covered by the following:

"Having now seen the images, it is absolutely certain that the PWA
applies. The option of DIY work is off the table, unless and until you
can convince a surveyor (if jointly appointed), or two surveyors (if
appointed individually) that you are suitably qualified, competent and
capable of carrying out the work with the requisite skill required."

However, I thank you for clarifying the matter. Perhaps, in the name of
completeness, I should have added "having first complied with the PWA by
serving notice on your neighbour."?

Regards

S.P.

[Roger Hayter]

snip

Post by Simon Parker

Post by Roger Hayter
I am sorry to add to what is almost definitive summary, but I don't think you
quite spelled out in so many words that the OP would almost certainly be
acting unlawfully, in breach of the the PWA, if he did *anything* substantive
to the stone wall without going through the PWA procedure.

"Having now seen the images, it is absolutely certain that the PWA
applies. The option of DIY work is off the table, unless and until you
can convince a surveyor (if jointly appointed), or two surveyors (if
appointed individually) that you are suitably qualified, competent and
capable of carrying out the work with the requisite skill required."
However, I thank you for clarifying the matter. Perhaps, in the name of
completeness, I should have added "having first complied with the PWA by
serving notice on your neighbour."?
Regards
S.P.

You are right, as usual. Having looked into the matter further I see that the
civil penalties for breaching the PWA are generally nugatory; it is the
penalties for having on the balance of probability contributed to the collapse
of next door that, as you say, he should be cautious about.

[Spike]

The situation [the PP has] described is legally considered a "retaining
wall" which is considered a type of party structure and is covered by
the Party Wall etc. Act (PWA) 1996 [1].
Because the wall has a retaining function, the presumption is that
responsibility for maintenance generally lies with the owner of the
property who derives benefit from the support, i.e. [one’s] neighbour.

[…]

The legislation creating this position is section 11(5)(a) of the PWA
1996 [2] which says that the cost of repairing a party structure is
defrayed according to "the use to which the owners respectively make or
may make use of the structure or wall concerned".
[1] https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/40/contents
[2] https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/40/section/11
[3] https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/40/section/2

May I raise a similar issue to the PP?

My house is set about 4’ lower than the properties either side, with the
result that their patios are higher than mine by that amount.

The fences separating our patios are supported by vertical posts, which are
in turn nailed to a row of round vertical posts set into concrete on our
patio level, which in height reach the level of the neighbours’ patios.
There are some 50 such round posts each side, and behind them is the
soil/earth/ground underlying those patios.

From the view from each of my neighbours’ patios, they see only a fence,

but my view is of the fences sitting atop the rows of round vertical posts.

Would it be correct to say that my neighbours bear responsibility for these
round vertical posts, or does the fact that the garden fence on the one
side for which I am responsible and which relies on support from these
round posts make the responsibility shared on that side?

I would have to say that in each case the outer line of the fence
encompasses the line of the round vertical posts. So for the fence for
which I am not responsible I gain no ‘use’ from the round vertical posts,
but on the other side of my patio I certainly do gain in the form of
support for my fence posts.

This subject has never been raised by anyone concerned; I am merely
‘testing the water’ in order to be informed about potential issues.

Any comments gratefully received.

[Simon Parker]

Post by Spike

The situation [the PP has] described is legally considered a "retaining
wall" which is considered a type of party structure and is covered by
the Party Wall etc. Act (PWA) 1996 [1].
Because the wall has a retaining function, the presumption is that
responsibility for maintenance generally lies with the owner of the
property who derives benefit from the support, i.e. [one’s] neighbour.

[…]

The legislation creating this position is section 11(5)(a) of the PWA
1996 [2] which says that the cost of repairing a party structure is
defrayed according to "the use to which the owners respectively make or
may make use of the structure or wall concerned".
[1] https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/40/contents
[2] https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/40/section/11
[3] https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/40/section/2

May I raise a similar issue to the PP?
My house is set about 4’ lower than the properties either side, with the
result that their patios are higher than mine by that amount.
The fences separating our patios are supported by vertical posts, which are
in turn nailed to a row of round vertical posts set into concrete on our
patio level, which in height reach the level of the neighbours’ patios.
There are some 50 such round posts each side, and behind them is the
soil/earth/ground underlying those patios.

From the view from each of my neighbours’ patios, they see only a fence,

but my view is of the fences sitting atop the rows of round vertical posts.
Would it be correct to say that my neighbours bear responsibility for these
round vertical posts, or does the fact that the garden fence on the one
side for which I am responsible and which relies on support from these
round posts make the responsibility shared on that side?
I would have to say that in each case the outer line of the fence
encompasses the line of the round vertical posts. So for the fence for
which I am not responsible I gain no ‘use’ from the round vertical posts,
but on the other side of my patio I certainly do gain in the form of
support for my fence posts.
This subject has never been raised by anyone concerned; I am merely
‘testing the water’ in order to be informed about potential issues.
Any comments gratefully received.

In the OP's case, we know that nothing was shown on the deeds and there
were no covenants regarding repair of the boundary wall meaning the
default position prevails.

In your case, I would recommend getting a copy of your deeds and those
of your immediate neighbours to check for "T"s or "H"s on the boundaries.

Regards

S.P.

[Fredxx]

Post by RJH
I live on a steep hill, and the 1.5m uphill boundary wall is in need of
repair.
Most urgently, there's a perilously leaning 10m section of drystone wall set
into my garden by about 50cm.
My concern here is what happens if, when I take down the drystone wall,
there's insufficient support behind, and the neighbour's garden, and recently
built extension and drain, ends up in my garden.
It is the neighbour's boundary - this was established when I bought the
property. I've discussed my concerns with my neighbour, and shown them the
surveyor's report ('this needs doing urgently'). I just get a blank look and
'dunno'.
I want to do this work myself. Any views on the legal position here if
removing the drystone wall results in any damage?

I was told that maintaining a boundary was exactly that, ensuring there
is a marker system to divide two parcels of land.

Unless your deeds have a covenant to maintain the wall at the boundary I
don't see why you have to do anything, apart from telling the neighbour
it's dangerous and the wall need to be fixed or removed.

I'm reminded that if you have a dog, it is your responsibility to keep
the dog on your land, and not to rely on your neighbour simply marking a
boundary. Perhaps this applies to earth and soil behind a failing
retaining wall that is marking a boundary?

BICBW etc

[RJH]

Post by Fredxx

Post by RJH
I live on a steep hill, and the 1.5m uphill boundary wall is in need of
repair.
Most urgently, there's a perilously leaning 10m section of drystone wall set
into my garden by about 50cm.
My concern here is what happens if, when I take down the drystone wall,
there's insufficient support behind, and the neighbour's garden, and recently
built extension and drain, ends up in my garden.
It is the neighbour's boundary - this was established when I bought the
property. I've discussed my concerns with my neighbour, and shown them the
surveyor's report ('this needs doing urgently'). I just get a blank look and
'dunno'.
I want to do this work myself. Any views on the legal position here if
removing the drystone wall results in any damage?

I was told that maintaining a boundary was exactly that, ensuring there
is a marker system to divide two parcels of land.
Unless your deeds have a covenant to maintain the wall at the boundary I
don't see why you have to do anything, apart from telling the neighbour
it's dangerous and the wall need to be fixed or removed.

Yes, I've told him - and shown him the surveyor's report.

It's only because it seems to have shifted more into my garden recently that
I'm actually starting to think something needs to be done sooner rather than
later.

Post by Fredxx
I'm reminded that if you have a dog, it is your responsibility to keep
the dog on your land, and not to rely on your neighbour simply marking a
boundary. Perhaps this applies to earth and soil behind a failing
retaining wall that is marking a boundary?
BICBW etc

[GB]

Post by RJH
It's only because it seems to have shifted more into my garden recently that
I'm actually starting to think something needs to be done sooner rather than
later.

What are the repercussions for your land if the wall fails suddenly? Is
there a potential danger to life? Or, can you simply avoid that part of
the garden?

You mentioned that the gate is wedged. Is there an alternative access to
the house.

I'm a bit amazed that you are proposing to DIY this pretty big piece of
engineering. As Simon says, this would leave you open to claims if it
ever fails in the future.

[RJH]

Post by GB

Post by RJH
It's only because it seems to have shifted more into my garden recently that
I'm actually starting to think something needs to be done sooner rather than
later.

What are the repercussions for your land if the wall fails suddenly? Is
there a potential danger to life? Or, can you simply avoid that part of
the garden?

I can avoid it - especially now the gate has wedged shut.

Post by GB
You mentioned that the gate is wedged. Is there an alternative access to
the house.

I can access the garden through the house.

Post by GB
I'm a bit amazed that you are proposing to DIY this pretty big piece of
engineering. As Simon says, this would leave you open to claims if it
ever fails in the future.

I did discuss it with a waller friend - he seemed to think it wouldn't be that
tricky, especially the dismantling. I may well call on him to rebuild.

But to stress - the wall is firmly on my land. My main concern is what might
happen if I choose to repair the wall myself - next door's garden ending up in
mine, for example.

[GB]

Post by RJH
But to stress - the wall is firmly on my land. My main concern is what might
happen if I choose to repair the wall myself - next door's garden ending up in
mine, for example.

There are other issues. The biggest one is that you get buried under
tons of earth! We'll miss you.

Apart from that, there could be movement that doesn't result in total
collapse. So, cracks may appear in your neighbour's new extension. If
you have worked on the wall at all, he'll hold you responsible for
having interfered with his "perfectly good retaining wall, that was
absolutely fine until RJH started pulling it to pieces".

Asked in court what experience and training you had, you will reply: "I
did discuss it with a waller friend". It will sound even weaker in court
than it does here!

[Simon Parker]

Post by RJH

Post by GB

Post by RJH
It's only because it seems to have shifted more into my garden recently that
I'm actually starting to think something needs to be done sooner rather than
later.

What are the repercussions for your land if the wall fails suddenly? Is
there a potential danger to life? Or, can you simply avoid that part of
the garden?

I can avoid it - especially now the gate has wedged shut.

You can use the fact that the gate is wedged shut to force your
neighbour to expedite repairs under the Party Wall etc Act as previously
advised.

[...]

Post by RJH

Post by GB
I'm a bit amazed that you are proposing to DIY this pretty big piece of
engineering. As Simon says, this would leave you open to claims if it
ever fails in the future.

I did discuss it with a waller friend - he seemed to think it wouldn't be that
tricky, especially the dismantling. I may well call on him to rebuild.

Bear in mind that, as previously advised, all work on the wall must
comply with the Party Wall etc. Act. That means that you will need a
report from a surveyor, likely a report from a civil / structural
engineer, and a formal quotation from your "waller friend" where all
work included in the quotation complies with the requirements of both of
the aforementioned reports. Additionally, it is likely that work cannot
start until two months after the relevant notice has been served.

Post by RJH
But to stress - the wall is firmly on my land. My main concern is what might
happen if I choose to repair the wall myself - next door's garden ending up in
mine, for example.

That's easy - you would need to demonstrate that the work was completed
to the relevant standards by suitably qualified professionals working
with the requisite skill and care.

Questions to consider...

Can you demonstrate to a court's satisfaction that:

(1) You a suitably qualified professional?
(2) You complied with the relevant standards when completing the work?
(3) You completed the work with the required level of skill and care?


Absent that, it is likely that you will be found to have been negligent
in which case you are on the hook for any and all costs, (up to and
including the complete rebuild of your neighbour's property should the
failure damage / undermine their foundations).

An alternative outcome is that you are killed when the retaining wall
collapses and the soil behind it quickly overwhelms you.

I commend to you in the strongest possible terms, the outcome of
Roadrunner Properties Limited v John Dean [2003] EWCA Civ 1816 [^1] in
which the court took a dim view of the building owner's actions and put
the burden on them to disprove a link between the damage and the work
instead of the reverse which is the usual position at common law.

Regards

S.P.

[^1] https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2003/1816.html

[RJH]

Post by Simon Parker

Post by RJH

Post by GB

Post by RJH
It's only because it seems to have shifted more into my garden recently that
I'm actually starting to think something needs to be done sooner rather than
later.

What are the repercussions for your land if the wall fails suddenly? Is
there a potential danger to life? Or, can you simply avoid that part of
the garden?

I can avoid it - especially now the gate has wedged shut.

You can use the fact that the gate is wedged shut to force your
neighbour to expedite repairs under the Party Wall etc Act as previously
advised.
[...]

Yes, good point.

Post by Simon Parker

Post by RJH

Post by GB
I'm a bit amazed that you are proposing to DIY this pretty big piece of
engineering. As Simon says, this would leave you open to claims if it
ever fails in the future.

I did discuss it with a waller friend - he seemed to think it wouldn't be that
tricky, especially the dismantling. I may well call on him to rebuild.

Bear in mind that, as previously advised, all work on the wall must
comply with the Party Wall etc. Act. That means that you will need a
report from a surveyor, likely a report from a civil / structural
engineer, and a formal quotation from your "waller friend" where all
work included in the quotation complies with the requirements of both of
the aforementioned reports. Additionally, it is likely that work cannot
start until two months after the relevant notice has been served.

I think a report stating that the wall is not, or at least should not, be
structural would be useful.

Post by Simon Parker

Post by RJH
But to stress - the wall is firmly on my land. My main concern is what might
happen if I choose to repair the wall myself - next door's garden ending up in
mine, for example.

That's easy - you would need to demonstrate that the work was completed
to the relevant standards by suitably qualified professionals working
with the requisite skill and care.
Questions to consider...
(1) You a suitably qualified professional?
(2) You complied with the relevant standards when completing the work?
(3) You completed the work with the required level of skill and care?

Yes, of course, I understand that, thanks. I still don't think the wall is or
should be structural. If it was, it would extend well within the boundary of
my property even before it starting moving. I measured the 50 cm as 'bedding
soil'. The whole structure etxends over a mtere onto my land.

Post by Simon Parker
Absent that, it is likely that you will be found to have been negligent
in which case you are on the hook for any and all costs, (up to and
including the complete rebuild of your neighbour's property should the
failure damage / undermine their foundations).
An alternative outcome is that you are killed when the retaining wall
collapses and the soil behind it quickly overwhelms you.
I commend to you in the strongest possible terms, the outcome of
Roadrunner Properties Limited v John Dean [2003] EWCA Civ 1816 [^1] in
which the court took a dim view of the building owner's actions and put
the burden on them to disprove a link between the damage and the work
instead of the reverse which is the usual position at common law.
Regards
S.P.
[^1] https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2003/1816.html

Yes, thanks, agreed and understood. I think the first thing to establish is
what if anything is holding back my neighbour's land and buildings.

If it is my wall, then yes, trouble ahead.

If behind my wall is a properly engineered retaining structure, all good.

An angle that has occured to me (and mentioned elsewhere in this thread) is
the extension they had built about 10 years' ago. That must (surely?!) have
had some foundation design that took the adjacent drop into account? There's
nothing in the planning application - I'll check with my neighbour.

[Jon Ribbens]

Post by Simon Parker
I commend to you in the strongest possible terms, the outcome of
Roadrunner Properties Limited v John Dean [2003] EWCA Civ 1816 [^1] in
which the court took a dim view of the building owner's actions and put
the burden on them to disprove a link between the damage and the work
instead of the reverse which is the usual position at common law.
Regards
S.P.
[^1] https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2003/1816.html

There appears to be an unfortunate error in that at paragraph 25,
which says:

"This court will not be slow to disturb a finding of fact made by a
judge who has heard and seen the witnesses."

whereas I cannot imagine the judge meant to say anything other than
the exact opposite of that!

And I think the judges were very unfair to the respondent in the
"post judgment discussion" paragraphs 96-99 where it is pointed out
that the entire case would have been a small claim if the claimant
hadn't suddenly amended it to tack on another £16,000 of damages,
all of which they lost on. And yet the respondent had to pay all of
the enormous uplift in fees of both parties as a result of that failed
additional claim.

It is certainly instructional though that this claim, which was,
as the court decided, about £1,740 of property damage, ended up
with legal costs around £50,000 by the looks of it. If the
respondent had made a part 36 offer of £2k at the start, they
would have saved themselves a huge amount of money.

[Simon Parker]

Post by Jon Ribbens

Post by Simon Parker
I commend to you in the strongest possible terms, the outcome of
Roadrunner Properties Limited v John Dean [2003] EWCA Civ 1816 [^1] in
which the court took a dim view of the building owner's actions and put
the burden on them to disprove a link between the damage and the work
instead of the reverse which is the usual position at common law.
Regards
S.P.
[^1] https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2003/1816.html

There appears to be an unfortunate error in that at paragraph 25,
"This court will not be slow to disturb a finding of fact made by a
judge who has heard and seen the witnesses."
whereas I cannot imagine the judge meant to say anything other than
the exact opposite of that!

I concur.

Post by Jon Ribbens
And I think the judges were very unfair to the respondent in the
"post judgment discussion" paragraphs 96-99 where it is pointed out
that the entire case would have been a small claim if the claimant
hadn't suddenly amended it to tack on another £16,000 of damages,
all of which they lost on. And yet the respondent had to pay all of
the enormous uplift in fees of both parties as a result of that failed
additional claim.
It is certainly instructional though that this claim, which was,
as the court decided, about £1,740 of property damage, ended up
with legal costs around £50,000 by the looks of it. If the
respondent had made a part 36 offer of £2k at the start, they
would have saved themselves a huge amount of money.

From memory, they were legally advised until they decided it was more
cost-effective and that the case was simple enough to represent themselves.

I would have expected their legal advisors to have recommended making a
Part 36 offer. If they did, and the respondent chose not to avail of
that, then the increased costs are on them. If they did not receive
that advice, then the respondent would have been able to ask their legal
advisors why they didn't proffer that advice initially and if they
consider it negligent not to have done so.

Either way, less than £2K of damage led to around £50K of legal costs
which is, as you say, instructional for the instant case.

Regards

S.P.

[Fredxx]

Post by RJH

Post by Fredxx

Post by RJH
I live on a steep hill, and the 1.5m uphill boundary wall is in need of
repair.
Most urgently, there's a perilously leaning 10m section of drystone wall set
into my garden by about 50cm.
My concern here is what happens if, when I take down the drystone wall,
there's insufficient support behind, and the neighbour's garden, and recently
built extension and drain, ends up in my garden.
It is the neighbour's boundary - this was established when I bought the
property. I've discussed my concerns with my neighbour, and shown them the
surveyor's report ('this needs doing urgently'). I just get a blank look and
'dunno'.
I want to do this work myself. Any views on the legal position here if
removing the drystone wall results in any damage?

I was told that maintaining a boundary was exactly that, ensuring there
is a marker system to divide two parcels of land.
Unless your deeds have a covenant to maintain the wall at the boundary I
don't see why you have to do anything, apart from telling the neighbour
it's dangerous and the wall need to be fixed or removed.

Yes, I've told him - and shown him the surveyor's report.
It's only because it seems to have shifted more into my garden recently that
I'm actually starting to think something needs to be done sooner rather than
later.

I suspect the recent wet weather hasn't helped.

If the neighbour doesn't do anything for a few weeks, assuming it isn't
that dangerous, I feel this is an insurance job. There is a chance they
might pay for remedial work to be carried out and land your neighbour
with a bill.

If you have children visit you I would say you are also morally
justified in taking action. I hate upsetting neighbours, but this is one
time where you can say you will involve your insurance company on the
grounds of safety and then the matter will then be out of your hands.

Any future correspondence will not then involve you.

Post by RJH

Post by Fredxx
I'm reminded that if you have a dog, it is your responsibility to keep
the dog on your land, and not to rely on your neighbour simply marking a
boundary. Perhaps this applies to earth and soil behind a failing
retaining wall that is marking a boundary?
BICBW etc

[Clive Arthur]

Post by RJH
I live on a steep hill, and the 1.5m uphill boundary wall is in need of
repair.
Most urgently, there's a perilously leaning 10m section of drystone wall set
into my garden by about 50cm.
My concern here is what happens if, when I take down the drystone wall,
there's insufficient support behind, and the neighbour's garden, and recently
built extension and drain, ends up in my garden.
It is the neighbour's boundary - this was established when I bought the
property. I've discussed my concerns with my neighbour, and shown them the
surveyor's report ('this needs doing urgently'). I just get a blank look and
'dunno'.
I want to do this work myself. Any views on the legal position here if
removing the drystone wall results in any damage?

Just a thought in case no-one else has mentioned it...

The 'recently built extension' may well have needed planning permission,
and you may well be able to see the plans on your local council's
planning portal.

[RJH]

Post by Clive Arthur

Post by RJH
I live on a steep hill, and the 1.5m uphill boundary wall is in need of
repair.
Most urgently, there's a perilously leaning 10m section of drystone wall set
into my garden by about 50cm.
My concern here is what happens if, when I take down the drystone wall,
there's insufficient support behind, and the neighbour's garden, and recently
built extension and drain, ends up in my garden.
It is the neighbour's boundary - this was established when I bought the
property. I've discussed my concerns with my neighbour, and shown them the
surveyor's report ('this needs doing urgently'). I just get a blank look and
'dunno'.
I want to do this work myself. Any views on the legal position here if
removing the drystone wall results in any damage?

Just a thought in case no-one else has mentioned it...
The 'recently built extension' may well have needed planning permission,
and you may well be able to see the plans on your local council's
planning portal.

Thanks, yes, ahead of you :-)

There's no detail or mention of the foundations, and the only reference to my
home is the extent to which it's overlooking living rooms (it isn't). The PP
was passed without conditions in 2014.

It did make me check the provisions of the Party Wall Act, though. The
extension is within 3m of my house (290cm). And a 45 degree line down from the
extension wall ground level does cross my house wall above the ground. So
presumably/hopefully there was some observance of party wall requirements.

Just summoning up the presence to approach my neighbour with this little lot .
. .

[Andy Burns]

Post by RJH

Post by Clive Arthur
The 'recently built extension' may well have needed planning permission,
and you may well be able to see the plans on your local council's
planning portal.

Thanks, yes, ahead of you :-)
There's no detail or mention of the foundations, and the only reference to my
home is the extent to which it's overlooking living rooms (it isn't). The PP
was passed without conditions in 2014.

Did you check for Building Regs application too?

[RJH]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by RJH

Post by Clive Arthur
The 'recently built extension' may well have needed planning permission,
and you may well be able to see the plans on your local council's
planning portal.

Thanks, yes, ahead of you :-)
There's no detail or mention of the foundations, and the only reference to my
home is the extent to which it's overlooking living rooms (it isn't). The PP
was passed without conditions in 2014.

Did you check for Building Regs application too?

Yes - there's an entry but no documents or detail of any kind.

[RJH]

Post by RJH

Post by Andy Burns

Post by RJH

Post by Clive Arthur
The 'recently built extension' may well have needed planning permission,
and you may well be able to see the plans on your local council's
planning portal.

Thanks, yes, ahead of you :-)
There's no detail or mention of the foundations, and the only reference to my
home is the extent to which it's overlooking living rooms (it isn't). The PP
was passed without conditions in 2014.

Did you check for Building Regs application too?

Yes - there's an entry but no documents or detail of any kind.

To add (just checked)

Decision: Accepted for Initial Notices only
Status: AI Final Certificate

Which IIUC the work was carried out by an approved contractor who submitted
plans to the LA, and who then signed themselves off on the job, having taken
into account any comments the LA made.

[Roger Hayter]

Post by RJH

Post by RJH

Post by Andy Burns

Post by RJH

Post by Clive Arthur
The 'recently built extension' may well have needed planning permission,
and you may well be able to see the plans on your local council's
planning portal.

Thanks, yes, ahead of you :-)
There's no detail or mention of the foundations, and the only reference to my
home is the extent to which it's overlooking living rooms (it isn't). The PP
was passed without conditions in 2014.

Did you check for Building Regs application too?

Yes - there's an entry but no documents or detail of any kind.

To add (just checked)
Decision: Accepted for Initial Notices only
Status: AI Final Certificate
Which IIUC the work was carried out by an approved contractor who submitted
plans to the LA, and who then signed themselves off on the job, having taken
into account any comments the LA made.

Does it begin to look as though the builders of the extension had an
obligation under the party wall act to involve you with a formal application
*before* building the extension? I'm not sure how this helps you, but somehow
you need establish that you neighbour (or their insurers) are responsible for
doing this now. How you do this I don't know.

[RJH]

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by RJH

Post by RJH

Post by Andy Burns

Post by RJH

Post by Clive Arthur
The 'recently built extension' may well have needed planning permission,
and you may well be able to see the plans on your local council's
planning portal.

Thanks, yes, ahead of you :-)
There's no detail or mention of the foundations, and the only reference to my
home is the extent to which it's overlooking living rooms (it isn't). The PP
was passed without conditions in 2014.

Did you check for Building Regs application too?

Yes - there's an entry but no documents or detail of any kind.

To add (just checked)
Decision: Accepted for Initial Notices only
Status: AI Final Certificate
Which IIUC the work was carried out by an approved contractor who submitted
plans to the LA, and who then signed themselves off on the job, having taken
into account any comments the LA made.

Does it begin to look as though the builders of the extension had an
obligation under the party wall act to involve you with a formal application
*before* building the extension?

It would have been the person who lived here at the time.

Post by Roger Hayter
I'm not sure how this helps you, but somehow
you need establish that you neighbour (or their insurers) are responsible for
doing this now. How you do this I don't know.

It's interesting. I don't think any paperwork is lodged with the planning
authority - it's just between the affected parties. I certainly didn't get any
such paperwork when I bought the house 18 months' ago. I'm not sure if my
surveyor should have alerted me. Anyway.

[Roger Hayter]

Post by RJH

Post by RJH

Post by Andy Burns

Post by RJH

Post by Clive Arthur
The 'recently built extension' may well have needed planning permission,
and you may well be able to see the plans on your local council's
planning portal.

Thanks, yes, ahead of you :-)
There's no detail or mention of the foundations, and the only reference to my
home is the extent to which it's overlooking living rooms (it isn't). The PP
was passed without conditions in 2014.

Did you check for Building Regs application too?

Yes - there's an entry but no documents or detail of any kind.

To add (just checked)
Decision: Accepted for Initial Notices only
Status: AI Final Certificate
Which IIUC the work was carried out by an approved contractor who submitted
plans to the LA, and who then signed themselves off on the job, having taken
into account any comments the LA made.

I've just found this page on gov.uk telling you how to report a dangerous
building to the relevant local authorities. Might be worth doing, but I'd
definitely inform your buildings insurer too.

https://www.gov.uk/report-dangerous-building-structure

[RJH]

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by RJH

Post by RJH

Post by Andy Burns

Post by RJH

Post by Clive Arthur
The 'recently built extension' may well have needed planning permission,
and you may well be able to see the plans on your local council's
planning portal.

Thanks, yes, ahead of you :-)
There's no detail or mention of the foundations, and the only reference to my
home is the extent to which it's overlooking living rooms (it isn't). The PP
was passed without conditions in 2014.

Did you check for Building Regs application too?

Yes - there's an entry but no documents or detail of any kind.

To add (just checked)
Decision: Accepted for Initial Notices only
Status: AI Final Certificate
Which IIUC the work was carried out by an approved contractor who submitted
plans to the LA, and who then signed themselves off on the job, having taken
into account any comments the LA made.

I've just found this page on gov.uk telling you how to report a dangerous
building to the relevant local authorities. Might be worth doing, but I'd
definitely inform your buildings insurer too.
https://www.gov.uk/report-dangerous-building-structure

Thanks. All I can be reasonably sure about it that my dry stone wall could be
dangerous. I don't fancy shopping myself just yet. But reporting any or all
aspects of this could be a usefull device once I've got some more information.

[Roger Hayter]

Post by RJH

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by RJH

Post by RJH

Post by Andy Burns

Post by RJH

Post by Clive Arthur
The 'recently built extension' may well have needed planning permission,
and you may well be able to see the plans on your local council's
planning portal.

Thanks, yes, ahead of you :-)
There's no detail or mention of the foundations, and the only reference to my
home is the extent to which it's overlooking living rooms (it isn't). The PP
was passed without conditions in 2014.

Did you check for Building Regs application too?

Yes - there's an entry but no documents or detail of any kind.

To add (just checked)
Decision: Accepted for Initial Notices only
Status: AI Final Certificate
Which IIUC the work was carried out by an approved contractor who submitted
plans to the LA, and who then signed themselves off on the job, having taken
into account any comments the LA made.

I've just found this page on gov.uk telling you how to report a dangerous
building to the relevant local authorities. Might be worth doing, but I'd
definitely inform your buildings insurer too.
https://www.gov.uk/report-dangerous-building-structure

Thanks. All I can be reasonably sure about it that my dry stone wall could be
dangerous. I don't fancy shopping myself just yet. But reporting any or all
aspects of this could be a usefull device once I've got some more information.

(Are you ignoring the split in the brick wall?)

Anyway, do not worry about your wall. That could in principle, if it were not
holding up a house, be remedied by dismantling the top metre, which would not
be a big job, apart from moving the stones somewhere.

But it is the neighbour who is responsible for his extension not sliding down
hill and making a big hole in the side of your house. (At least provided you
do nothing to hasten the accident.) And council involvement might be just the
thing to spur him into action - ultimately the council could do the job
themselves if he won't and charge him for it.

If the council surveyor says not to worry, they've got a year or two to fix it
then that is good. But you still shouldn't risk touching your wall!

[Roger Hayter]

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by RJH

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by RJH

Post by RJH

Post by Andy Burns

Post by RJH

Post by Clive Arthur
The 'recently built extension' may well have needed planning permission,
and you may well be able to see the plans on your local council's
planning portal.

Thanks, yes, ahead of you :-)
There's no detail or mention of the foundations, and the only reference to my
home is the extent to which it's overlooking living rooms (it isn't). The PP
was passed without conditions in 2014.

Did you check for Building Regs application too?

Yes - there's an entry but no documents or detail of any kind.

To add (just checked)
Decision: Accepted for Initial Notices only
Status: AI Final Certificate
Which IIUC the work was carried out by an approved contractor who submitted
plans to the LA, and who then signed themselves off on the job, having taken
into account any comments the LA made.

I've just found this page on gov.uk telling you how to report a dangerous
building to the relevant local authorities. Might be worth doing, but I'd
definitely inform your buildings insurer too.
https://www.gov.uk/report-dangerous-building-structure

Thanks. All I can be reasonably sure about it that my dry stone wall could be
dangerous. I don't fancy shopping myself just yet. But reporting any or all
aspects of this could be a usefull device once I've got some more information.

(Are you ignoring the split in the brick wall?)
Anyway, do not worry about your wall. That could in principle, if it were not
holding up a house, be remedied by dismantling the top metre, which would not
be a big job, apart from moving the stones somewhere.
But it is the neighbour who is responsible for his extension not sliding down
hill and making a big hole in the side of your house. (At least provided you
do nothing to hasten the accident.) And council involvement might be just the
thing to spur him into action - ultimately the council could do the job
themselves if he won't and charge him for it.
If the council surveyor says not to worry, they've got a year or two to fix it
then that is good. But you still shouldn't risk touching your wall!

And don't try and open the gate! Except perhaps with a long rope from 25 yards
away. It may be holding the wall up.

[RJH]

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by RJH

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by RJH

Post by RJH

Post by Andy Burns

Post by RJH

Post by Clive Arthur
The 'recently built extension' may well have needed planning permission,
and you may well be able to see the plans on your local council's
planning portal.

Thanks, yes, ahead of you :-)
There's no detail or mention of the foundations, and the only reference to my
home is the extent to which it's overlooking living rooms (it isn't). The PP
was passed without conditions in 2014.

Did you check for Building Regs application too?

Yes - there's an entry but no documents or detail of any kind.

To add (just checked)
Decision: Accepted for Initial Notices only
Status: AI Final Certificate
Which IIUC the work was carried out by an approved contractor who submitted
plans to the LA, and who then signed themselves off on the job, having taken
into account any comments the LA made.

I've just found this page on gov.uk telling you how to report a dangerous
building to the relevant local authorities. Might be worth doing, but I'd
definitely inform your buildings insurer too.
https://www.gov.uk/report-dangerous-building-structure

Thanks. All I can be reasonably sure about it that my dry stone wall could be
dangerous. I don't fancy shopping myself just yet. But reporting any or all
aspects of this could be a usefull device once I've got some more information.

(Are you ignoring the split in the brick wall?)

Well, it looks less severe!

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by Roger Hayter
Anyway, do not worry about your wall. That could in principle, if it were not
holding up a house, be remedied by dismantling the top metre, which would not
be a big job, apart from moving the stones somewhere.
But it is the neighbour who is responsible for his extension not sliding down
hill and making a big hole in the side of your house. (At least provided you
do nothing to hasten the accident.) And council involvement might be just the
thing to spur him into action - ultimately the council could do the job
themselves if he won't and charge him for it.
If the council surveyor says not to worry, they've got a year or two to fix it
then that is good. But you still shouldn't risk touching your wall!

Yes, thanks. To add a touch of emphasis I've got some temporary fencing I'll
put up at the gate, my garden, and at the boundary. I'll introduce the subject
by asking for his permission to put up the boundary fence.

Post by Roger Hayter
And don't try and open the gate! Except perhaps with a long rope from 25 yards
away. It may be holding the wall up.

Noted!

[Clive Arthur]

On 10/11/2024 13:02, RJH wrote:

<snip>

Post by RJH
Just summoning up the presence to approach my neighbour with this little lot .

It does sound like it's going to cost him, or his insurance, or his
builder, many thousands of pounds.

Was the brick wall vertical and straight before his extension was built?

[Roger Hayter]

Post by Clive Arthur
<snip>

Post by RJH
Just summoning up the presence to approach my neighbour with this little lot .

It does sound like it's going to cost him, or his insurance, or his
builder, many thousands of pounds.
Was the brick wall vertical and straight before his extension was built?

It doesn't appear to have been buttressed, as I would expect such a wall to
be. It is also remarkably high and near the OP's house.

[RJH]

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by Clive Arthur
<snip>

FYI - I only moved in 18 months ago, and all of the building work was well
before my time.

As concerns the wall, we went through it all with the solicitor and surveyor.
Basically, it's their boundary so it's their responsibility was the outcome. I
was happy with that at the time. Not so sure now.

My OP related to whether anything I do on my property that could affect a
defective boundary retaining structure (I'm not certain there is a wall behind
my leaning dry stone wall) might leave me liable . . .

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by Clive Arthur

Post by RJH
Just summoning up the presence to approach my neighbour with this little lot .

It does sound like it's going to cost him, or his insurance, or his
builder, many thousands of pounds.

Yep. They might have been in touch with the builder/architect that did the
extension. All of this will become clear soon enough!

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by Clive Arthur
Was the brick wall vertical and straight before his extension was built?

That I don't know. I've got a Google street photo from 2008 that shows the
wall, but not enough detail. I suspect the movement and spalling is relatively
recent.

I took some photos and measurements of the brick wall soon after I moved in -
it looks much the same, except (of course) the dry stone wall has crept out
enough to wedge the gate shut.

I've taken more of an interest in other properties on the street. This setup -
high retaining walls - is not at all uncommon.

Post by Roger Hayter
It doesn't appear to have been buttressed, as I would expect such a wall to
be. It is also remarkably high and near the OP's house.

Yes, it's about 2m at it's highest, but not unreasonably high given the
steepness of the hill.

[Peter Walker]

Post by RJH

On 10 Nov 2024 at 13:22:13 GMT, "Clive Arthur"

Post by Clive Arthur
<snip>

FYI - I only moved in 18 months ago, and all of the building work was
well before my time.
As concerns the wall, we went through it all with the solicitor and
surveyor. Basically, it's their boundary so it's their responsibility
was the outcome. I was happy with that at the time. Not so sure now.
My OP related to whether anything I do on my property that could
affect a defective boundary retaining structure (I'm not certain there
is a wall behind my leaning dry stone wall) might leave me liable . .
.

I think you are wise to consider this. Despite its open and pliable
structure your dry stone wall and soil border may be providing some
buttressing effect to the clearly failing retaining wall of your
neighbours. If that wall were to suffer some collapse following any work
you carried our or had carried out on your own wall then you could be found
at least partially responsible.

In those circumstances Simon Parker's advice sounds eminently sensible,
back off and consder reporting of a potentially unsafe structure with
reference to your engineer's report.

Be aware however that a resolution and repair may not be a speedy affair.
In a spot I used to visit regularly I noticed a similar stepped garden
situation (albeit with far greater height) with the wall being buttressed
by a large wooden supporting structure in the neighbouring garden. It
remained like that for a number of years and my guess is that the owners of
the upper house just didn't have the money to carry out the repairs and as
such it remained in limbo. Looking again on Google streetview I see that it
has been now been repaired but it took a very long time for it to happen.

Post by RJH

Post by Clive Arthur

Post by RJH
Just summoning up the presence to approach my neighbour with this little lot .

It does sound like it's going to cost him, or his insurance, or his
builder, many thousands of pounds.

Yep. They might have been in touch with the builder/architect that did
the extension. All of this will become clear soon enough!

Post by Clive Arthur
Was the brick wall vertical and straight before his extension was built?

That I don't know. I've got a Google street photo from 2008 that shows
the wall, but not enough detail. I suspect the movement and spalling
is relatively recent.
I took some photos and measurements of the brick wall soon after I
moved in - it looks much the same, except (of course) the dry stone
wall has crept out enough to wedge the gate shut.
I've taken more of an interest in other properties on the street. This
setup - high retaining walls - is not at all uncommon.

It doesn't appear to have been buttressed, as I would expect such a
wall to be. It is also remarkably high and near the OP's house.

Yes, it's about 2m at it's highest, but not unreasonably high given
the steepness of the hill.

Personally I'm surprised to see a retaining wall of that height to be only
a single brick in depth (yes, that is the correct term) even though the
brick bond is the strongest avaialble. Also surprised not to see regular
weep holes in the wall - although I may have missed them.

[RJH]

Post by Peter Walker

Post by RJH

On 10 Nov 2024 at 13:22:13 GMT, "Clive Arthur"

Post by Clive Arthur
<snip>

FYI - I only moved in 18 months ago, and all of the building work was
well before my time.
As concerns the wall, we went through it all with the solicitor and
surveyor. Basically, it's their boundary so it's their responsibility
was the outcome. I was happy with that at the time. Not so sure now.
My OP related to whether anything I do on my property that could
affect a defective boundary retaining structure (I'm not certain there
is a wall behind my leaning dry stone wall) might leave me liable . .
.

I think you are wise to consider this. Despite its open and pliable
structure your dry stone wall and soil border may be providing some
buttressing effect to the clearly failing retaining wall of your
neighbours. If that wall were to suffer some collapse following any work
you carried our or had carried out on your own wall then you could be found
at least partially responsible.
In those circumstances Simon Parker's advice sounds eminently sensible,
back off and consder reporting of a potentially unsafe structure with
reference to your engineer's report.

Yes. Although mine is not an engineer's report as such - it was one of those
advanced home buyers'. I did spend some time with the surveyor during and
after the survey, and he seemed knowledgable. Once he was assured the boundary
was not mine he relaxed a little.

My first step will be to discuss with the neighbour, and reach an agreement to
establish exactly what's going on, what needs to be done, and where the
responsibility lies. If he won't get things started, I will.

Post by Peter Walker
Be aware however that a resolution and repair may not be a speedy affair.
In a spot I used to visit regularly I noticed a similar stepped garden
situation (albeit with far greater height) with the wall being buttressed
by a large wooden supporting structure in the neighbouring garden. It
remained like that for a number of years and my guess is that the owners of
the upper house just didn't have the money to carry out the repairs and as
such it remained in limbo. Looking again on Google streetview I see that it
has been now been repaired but it took a very long time for it to happen.

Yes, braced for that. Although they have a fair bit at stake - if it
transpires that their foundations are compromised.

Post by Peter Walker

Post by RJH

Post by Clive Arthur

Post by RJH
Just summoning up the presence to approach my neighbour with this little lot .

It does sound like it's going to cost him, or his insurance, or his
builder, many thousands of pounds.

Yep. They might have been in touch with the builder/architect that did
the extension. All of this will become clear soon enough!

Post by Clive Arthur
Was the brick wall vertical and straight before his extension was built?

That I don't know. I've got a Google street photo from 2008 that shows
the wall, but not enough detail. I suspect the movement and spalling
is relatively recent.
I took some photos and measurements of the brick wall soon after I
moved in - it looks much the same, except (of course) the dry stone
wall has crept out enough to wedge the gate shut.
I've taken more of an interest in other properties on the street. This
setup - high retaining walls - is not at all uncommon.

It doesn't appear to have been buttressed, as I would expect such a
wall to be. It is also remarkably high and near the OP's house.

Yes, it's about 2m at it's highest, but not unreasonably high given
the steepness of the hill.

Personally I'm surprised to see a retaining wall of that height to be only
a single brick in depth (yes, that is the correct term) even though the
brick bond is the strongest avaialble.

It could be that it originally had no soil on their side, although the side
path alongside the original structure is original according to the plans.

The bricks show every sign of stress - spalling (up to 3cm of the surface of a
few bricks), cracks through bricks and along the mortar line, and a couple of
upper courses of brickwork have broken free and moved inwards, towards my
property, by a cm or so.

Post by Peter Walker
Also surprised not to see regular
weep holes in the wall - although I may have missed them.

3cm holes, about 5cm from the ground, at 1.2m centres.

[Simon Parker]

Post by Peter Walker
Be aware however that a resolution and repair may not be a speedy affair.

I, respectfully, disagree. Either building owner can serve notice on
the adjoining owner.

In the OP's case, if the adjoining owner fails to serve notice on him in
a timely manner, (which I'd measure in very low double digit days), he
can serve notice on them to kick-start the process. The difference
being that the notice he serves on them will state that they are
ultimately liable for the costs incurred for the work required. At that
point, if they haven't done so already, I fully expect that they will
appoint their own surveyor rather quickly and take control of the
process rather than be landed with a mid to high five figure bill for
work over which they have had no input or control.

Regards

S.P.

[Simon Parker]

Post by RJH

Post by Clive Arthur
<snip>

FYI - I only moved in 18 months ago, and all of the building work was well
before my time.
As concerns the wall, we went through it all with the solicitor and surveyor.
Basically, it's their boundary so it's their responsibility was the outcome. I
was happy with that at the time. Not so sure now.

About what are you not so sure and why?

Post by RJH
My OP related to whether anything I do on my property that could affect a
defective boundary retaining structure (I'm not certain there is a wall behind
my leaning dry stone wall) might leave me liable . . .

Hopefully, you are crystal clear on the legal ramifications now, as well
as the potentially life-ending personal cost?

Post by RJH

Post by Clive Arthur

Post by RJH
Just summoning up the presence to approach my neighbour with this little lot .

It does sound like it's going to cost him, or his insurance, or his
builder, many thousands of pounds.

Yep. They might have been in touch with the builder/architect that did the
extension. All of this will become clear soon enough!

I would be grateful if you could keep us updated.

Regards

S.P.

[RJH]

Post by Simon Parker

Post by RJH

Post by Clive Arthur
<snip>

FYI - I only moved in 18 months ago, and all of the building work was well
before my time.
As concerns the wall, we went through it all with the solicitor and surveyor.
Basically, it's their boundary so it's their responsibility was the outcome. I
was happy with that at the time. Not so sure now.

About what are you not so sure and why?

Being happy about the 'it's not your problem so don't worry' attitude I
encountered from the solictor and (less so) the surveyor.

Post by Simon Parker

Post by RJH
My OP related to whether anything I do on my property that could affect a
defective boundary retaining structure (I'm not certain there is a wall behind
my leaning dry stone wall) might leave me liable . . .

Hopefully, you are crystal clear on the legal ramifications now, as well
as the potentially life-ending personal cost?

Well, yes.

There is a scenario whereby the dry stone wall is decorative and dangerous
only in that it, and only it and a couple of shrubs, could collapse. I've come
round to the stronger possibility that it's nothing of the sort, and more
probably part of structural support for my neigbour's property.

I have to concede that I hadn't realised that a neighbour can use my land to
support their own property. That I think is the main cause of my confusion.

I've been through my deeds and it's completely silent on the boundary in
question, other than the 'T' on the plan. Curiously, boubndaries either side
belong to my respective neighbours. I have only the boundary at the end of my
garden, which opens on to a council-owned track.

But there is an entry in the title register that reads : '(the original
conveyance) referred to above contains a provision as to boundary structures'.
I have no idea what that refers to. The words 'boundary' or 'structure' are
not in the deeds. There is a reference to 'the party wall' and associated
shared responsibility, but that (I think) is a reference to my other
neighbour. My house was built soon after my other neighbour's in 1925, on the
side of their house, creating two semi-detached houses. The original deed
document reads like a contract between those two property owners. There is no
mention of my neighbour with the troublesome wall. So that I'm pretty sure
that will be 'the party wall'.

Anyway, the 'boundary structure' could I suppose be the listing wall in
question, but as I say, I can't see any mention of it.

So reasonably crystal clear, but I'll be happier once the situation is
informed more fully by some additional professional surveying/engineering and
legal insights.

And for getting me this far, my thanks.

Post by Simon Parker

Post by RJH

Post by Clive Arthur

Post by RJH
Just summoning up the presence to approach my neighbour with this little lot .

It does sound like it's going to cost him, or his insurance, or his
builder, many thousands of pounds.

Yep. They might have been in touch with the builder/architect that did the
extension. All of this will become clear soon enough!

I would be grateful if you could keep us updated.

Yes, will do.

[Simon Parker]

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker

Post by RJH
FYI - I only moved in 18 months ago, and all of the building work was well
before my time.
As concerns the wall, we went through it all with the solicitor and surveyor.
Basically, it's their boundary so it's their responsibility was the outcome. I
was happy with that at the time. Not so sure now.

About what are you not so sure and why?

Being happy about the 'it's not your problem so don't worry' attitude I
encountered from the solictor and (less so) the surveyor.

Having examined the deeds, the solicitor was no doubt aware that you had
(relatively) easy access to (relatively) low cost remedies available
under the PWA meaning the retaining wall is not something over which you
should be overly concerned.

Assuming you were not a cash buyer, your mortgage provider will have
seen the surveyor's report and they must have taken the same view as the
solicitor or they would have withdrawn their mortgage offer.

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker

Post by RJH
My OP related to whether anything I do on my property that could affect a
defective boundary retaining structure (I'm not certain there is a wall behind
my leaning dry stone wall) might leave me liable . . .

Hopefully, you are crystal clear on the legal ramifications now, as well
as the potentially life-ending personal cost?

Well, yes.

Then the NG has fulfilled its role. :-)

Post by RJH
There is a scenario whereby the dry stone wall is decorative and dangerous
only in that it, and only it and a couple of shrubs, could collapse. I've come
round to the stronger possibility that it's nothing of the sort, and more
probably part of structural support for my neigbour's property.
I have to concede that I hadn't realised that a neighbour can use my land to
support their own property. That I think is the main cause of my confusion.

I would concur with your concise summary of the facts.

Post by RJH
I've been through my deeds and it's completely silent on the boundary in
question, other than the 'T' on the plan. Curiously, boubndaries either side
belong to my respective neighbours. I have only the boundary at the end of my
garden, which opens on to a council-owned track.

I assume the T confirms that it is your neighbour's responsibility to
maintain the retaining wall in question? (Another reason for a lack of
alarm from the solicitor handling the conveyance and your mortgage
provider.)

Post by RJH
But there is an entry in the title register that reads : '(the original
conveyance) referred to above contains a provision as to boundary structures'.
I have no idea what that refers to. The words 'boundary' or 'structure' are
not in the deeds. There is a reference to 'the party wall' and associated
shared responsibility, but that (I think) is a reference to my other
neighbour. My house was built soon after my other neighbour's in 1925, on the
side of their house, creating two semi-detached houses. The original deed
document reads like a contract between those two property owners. There is no
mention of my neighbour with the troublesome wall. So that I'm pretty sure
that will be 'the party wall'.
Anyway, the 'boundary structure' could I suppose be the listing wall in
question, but as I say, I can't see any mention of it.
So reasonably crystal clear, but I'll be happier once the situation is
informed more fully by some additional professional surveying/engineering and
legal insights.
And for getting me this far, my thanks.

You are most welcome. As I said above, the NG has done its job. :-)

Post by RJH

Post by Simon Parker

Post by RJH
Yep. They might have been in touch with the builder/architect that did the
extension. All of this will become clear soon enough!

I would be grateful if you could keep us updated.

Yes, will do.

Thanks

Regards

S.P.