Discussion:
Wrong birth certificate?
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miked
2024-11-21 22:32:32 UTC
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/19/baby-girl-registered-wrong-sex-mansfield-registration-office

So the registrar put the wrong sex down on the birth certificate in
Mansfield. However AIUI you can get a new birth certificate if you
change sex, although you must first get a dr to confirm your new gender.
So why cant the parents can get a dr to confirm the babys gender and get
the birth certificate reissued?

mike
Mark Goodge
2024-11-22 10:12:45 UTC
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Permalink
Post by miked
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/19/baby-girl-registered-wrong-sex-mansfield-registration-office
So the registrar put the wrong sex down on the birth certificate in
Mansfield. However AIUI you can get a new birth certificate if you
change sex, although you must first get a dr to confirm your new gender.
So why cant the parents can get a dr to confirm the babys gender and get
the birth certificate reissued?
On the face of it, this does seem ridiculous, and I suspect that it may well
be susceptible to judicial review. Certainly, if I was in their position,
I'd be looking at taking it further.

Mark
Davey
2024-11-22 12:12:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 10:12:45 +0000
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by miked
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/19/baby-girl-registered-wrong-sex-mansfield-registration-office
So the registrar put the wrong sex down on the birth certificate in
Mansfield. However AIUI you can get a new birth certificate if you
change sex, although you must first get a dr to confirm your new
gender. So why cant the parents can get a dr to confirm the babys
gender and get the birth certificate reissued?
On the face of it, this does seem ridiculous, and I suspect that it
may well be susceptible to judicial review. Certainly, if I was in
their position, I'd be looking at taking it further.
Mark
I red somewhere that it had been done for somebody else in the same
circumstance, but for some reason could not be done for this one. Nuts.
--
Davey.
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-22 12:15:14 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Davey
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 10:12:45 +0000
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by miked
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/19/baby-girl-registered-wrong-sex-mansfield-registration-office
So the registrar put the wrong sex down on the birth certificate in
Mansfield. However AIUI you can get a new birth certificate if you
change sex, although you must first get a dr to confirm your new
gender. So why cant the parents can get a dr to confirm the babys
gender and get the birth certificate reissued?
On the face of it, this does seem ridiculous, and I suspect that it
may well be susceptible to judicial review. Certainly, if I was in
their position, I'd be looking at taking it further.
I red somewhere that it had been done for somebody else in the same
circumstance, but for some reason could not be done for this one. Nuts.
Because after the first instance, the registrar had been reprimanded
for breaking the law, and told in no uncertain terms not to do it again.
Davey
2024-11-22 12:26:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 12:15:14 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Davey
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 10:12:45 +0000
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by miked
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/19/baby-girl-registered-wrong-sex-mansfield-registration-office
So the registrar put the wrong sex down on the birth certificate
in Mansfield. However AIUI you can get a new birth certificate if
you change sex, although you must first get a dr to confirm your
new gender. So why cant the parents can get a dr to confirm the
babys gender and get the birth certificate reissued?
On the face of it, this does seem ridiculous, and I suspect that it
may well be susceptible to judicial review. Certainly, if I was in
their position, I'd be looking at taking it further.
I red somewhere that it had been done for somebody else in the same
circumstance, but for some reason could not be done for this one. Nuts.
Because after the first instance, the registrar had been reprimanded
for breaking the law, and told in no uncertain terms not to do it again.
If the change had been carried out once to correct the initial mistake,
I see no reason why it could not be done a second time, It's not the
baby's fault.
--
Davey.
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-22 12:33:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Davey
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 12:15:14 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Davey
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 10:12:45 +0000
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by miked
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/19/baby-girl-registered-wrong-sex-mansfield-registration-office
So the registrar put the wrong sex down on the birth certificate
in Mansfield. However AIUI you can get a new birth certificate if
you change sex, although you must first get a dr to confirm your
new gender. So why cant the parents can get a dr to confirm the
babys gender and get the birth certificate reissued?
On the face of it, this does seem ridiculous, and I suspect that it
may well be susceptible to judicial review. Certainly, if I was in
their position, I'd be looking at taking it further.
I red somewhere that it had been done for somebody else in the same
circumstance, but for some reason could not be done for this one. Nuts.
Because after the first instance, the registrar had been reprimanded
for breaking the law, and told in no uncertain terms not to do it again.
If the change had been carried out once to correct the initial mistake,
I see no reason why it could not be done a second time, It's not the
baby's fault.
Because it's against the law, and public servants are not supposed to
break the law?

I agree of course that there is an injustice here, but the way to
remedy it is not to ignore the law but to fix it.
Davey
2024-11-22 13:42:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 12:33:37 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Davey
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 12:15:14 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Davey
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 10:12:45 +0000
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by miked
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/19/baby-girl-registered-wrong-sex-mansfield-registration-office
So the registrar put the wrong sex down on the birth
certificate in Mansfield. However AIUI you can get a new birth
certificate if you change sex, although you must first get a
dr to confirm your new gender. So why cant the parents can get
a dr to confirm the babys gender and get the birth certificate
reissued?
On the face of it, this does seem ridiculous, and I suspect
that it may well be susceptible to judicial review. Certainly,
if I was in their position, I'd be looking at taking it
further.
I red somewhere that it had been done for somebody else in the
same circumstance, but for some reason could not be done for
this one. Nuts.
Because after the first instance, the registrar had been
reprimanded for breaking the law, and told in no uncertain terms
not to do it again.
If the change had been carried out once to correct the initial
mistake, I see no reason why it could not be done a second time,
It's not the baby's fault.
Because it's against the law, and public servants are not supposed to
break the law?
I agree of course that there is an injustice here, but the way to
remedy it is not to ignore the law but to fix it.
Here is what used to be done from the same article:

"In a twist to the tale, Sarah Power, who registered her baby daughter
at the same register office – with the same registrar – in October last
year, had a similar experience.

“The registrar read back all the details correctly – including that our
daughter was female – and then asked us to check the spellings of the
name,” she said. “We checked the spelling but not the gender, because
the registrar had already said it to us correctly.”

“It was only when we got outside the office door that we looked at the
certificate and realised that our daughter had been registered as male.”

Power, however, was able to get a new, corrected birth certificate for
her daughter after the registrar directed her to a GPO form. The Home
Office, however, say this is no longer an option. ‘The local
registration service was advised earlier this year not to issue
[corrected] certificates in this way,” they said."

Why was this change mandated, if it worked?
--
Davey.
Roger Hayter
2024-11-22 13:50:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Davey
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 12:33:37 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Davey
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 12:15:14 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Davey
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 10:12:45 +0000
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by miked
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/19/baby-girl-registered-wrong-sex-mansfield-registration-office
So the registrar put the wrong sex down on the birth
certificate in Mansfield. However AIUI you can get a new birth
certificate if you change sex, although you must first get a
dr to confirm your new gender. So why cant the parents can get
a dr to confirm the babys gender and get the birth certificate
reissued?
On the face of it, this does seem ridiculous, and I suspect
that it may well be susceptible to judicial review. Certainly,
if I was in their position, I'd be looking at taking it
further.
I red somewhere that it had been done for somebody else in the
same circumstance, but for some reason could not be done for
this one. Nuts.
Because after the first instance, the registrar had been
reprimanded for breaking the law, and told in no uncertain terms
not to do it again.
If the change had been carried out once to correct the initial
mistake, I see no reason why it could not be done a second time,
It's not the baby's fault.
Because it's against the law, and public servants are not supposed to
break the law?
I agree of course that there is an injustice here, but the way to
remedy it is not to ignore the law but to fix it.
"In a twist to the tale, Sarah Power, who registered her baby daughter
at the same register office – with the same registrar – in October last
year, had a similar experience.
“The registrar read back all the details correctly – including that our
daughter was female – and then asked us to check the spellings of the
name,” she said. “We checked the spelling but not the gender, because
the registrar had already said it to us correctly.”
“It was only when we got outside the office door that we looked at the
certificate and realised that our daughter had been registered as male.”
Power, however, was able to get a new, corrected birth certificate for
her daughter after the registrar directed her to a GPO form. The Home
Office, however, say this is no longer an option. ‘The local
registration service was advised earlier this year not to issue
[corrected] certificates in this way,” they said."
Why was this change mandated, if it worked?
And was the change actually in accordance with binding law, or merely
administrative instructions?
--
Roger Hayter
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-22 13:56:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Davey
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 12:33:37 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Davey
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 12:15:14 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Davey
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 10:12:45 +0000
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by miked
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/19/baby-girl-registered-wrong-sex-mansfield-registration-office
So the registrar put the wrong sex down on the birth
certificate in Mansfield. However AIUI you can get a new birth
certificate if you change sex, although you must first get a
dr to confirm your new gender. So why cant the parents can get
a dr to confirm the babys gender and get the birth certificate
reissued?
On the face of it, this does seem ridiculous, and I suspect
that it may well be susceptible to judicial review. Certainly,
if I was in their position, I'd be looking at taking it
further.
I red somewhere that it had been done for somebody else in the
same circumstance, but for some reason could not be done for
this one. Nuts.
Because after the first instance, the registrar had been
reprimanded for breaking the law, and told in no uncertain terms
not to do it again.
If the change had been carried out once to correct the initial
mistake, I see no reason why it could not be done a second time,
It's not the baby's fault.
Because it's against the law, and public servants are not supposed to
break the law?
I agree of course that there is an injustice here, but the way to
remedy it is not to ignore the law but to fix it.
"In a twist to the tale, Sarah Power, who registered her baby daughter
at the same register office – with the same registrar – in October last
year, had a similar experience.
“The registrar read back all the details correctly – including that our
daughter was female – and then asked us to check the spellings of the
name,” she said. “We checked the spelling but not the gender, because
the registrar had already said it to us correctly.”
“It was only when we got outside the office door that we looked at the
certificate and realised that our daughter had been registered as male.”
Power, however, was able to get a new, corrected birth certificate for
her daughter after the registrar directed her to a GPO form. The Home
Office, however, say this is no longer an option. ‘The local
registration service was advised earlier this year not to issue
[corrected] certificates in this way,” they said."
Why was this change mandated, if it worked?
And was the change actually in accordance with binding law, or merely
administrative instructions?
The impression I am under is that no change was made. The registrar was
not following the law by allowing the change, and was instructed that
they had to stop breaking the law.
Davey
2024-11-22 16:11:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 13:56:09 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Roger Hayter
Post by Davey
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 12:33:37 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Davey
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 12:15:14 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Davey
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 10:12:45 +0000
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by miked
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/19/baby-girl-registered-wrong-sex-mansfield-registration-office
So the registrar put the wrong sex down on the birth
certificate in Mansfield. However AIUI you can get a new
birth certificate if you change sex, although you must first
get a dr to confirm your new gender. So why cant the parents
can get a dr to confirm the babys gender and get the birth
certificate reissued?
On the face of it, this does seem ridiculous, and I suspect
that it may well be susceptible to judicial review. Certainly,
if I was in their position, I'd be looking at taking it
further.
I red somewhere that it had been done for somebody else in the
same circumstance, but for some reason could not be done for
this one. Nuts.
Because after the first instance, the registrar had been
reprimanded for breaking the law, and told in no uncertain terms
not to do it again.
If the change had been carried out once to correct the initial
mistake, I see no reason why it could not be done a second time,
It's not the baby's fault.
Because it's against the law, and public servants are not
supposed to break the law?
I agree of course that there is an injustice here, but the way to
remedy it is not to ignore the law but to fix it.
"In a twist to the tale, Sarah Power, who registered her baby
daughter at the same register office – with the same registrar –
in October last year, had a similar experience.
“The registrar read back all the details correctly – including
that our daughter was female – and then asked us to check the
spellings of the name,” she said. “We checked the spelling but not
the gender, because the registrar had already said it to us
correctly.”
“It was only when we got outside the office door that we looked at
the certificate and realised that our daughter had been registered
as male.”
Power, however, was able to get a new, corrected birth certificate
for her daughter after the registrar directed her to a GPO form.
The Home Office, however, say this is no longer an option. ‘The
local registration service was advised earlier this year not to
issue [corrected] certificates in this way,” they said."
Why was this change mandated, if it worked?
And was the change actually in accordance with binding law, or
merely administrative instructions?
The impression I am under is that no change was made. The registrar
was not following the law by allowing the change, and was instructed
that they had to stop breaking the law.
But it says that she was able to get a new, corrected certificate, and
later that option was no longer available. Which implies to me that it
was legal when she did it, but then became illegal.
--
Davey.
Max Demian
2024-11-22 17:58:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Davey
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 12:33:37 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Davey
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 12:15:14 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Davey
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 10:12:45 +0000
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by miked
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/19/baby-girl-registered-wrong-sex-mansfield-registration-office
So the registrar put the wrong sex down on the birth
certificate in Mansfield. However AIUI you can get a new birth
certificate if you change sex, although you must first get a
dr to confirm your new gender. So why cant the parents can get
a dr to confirm the babys gender and get the birth certificate
reissued?
On the face of it, this does seem ridiculous, and I suspect
that it may well be susceptible to judicial review. Certainly,
if I was in their position, I'd be looking at taking it
further.
I red somewhere that it had been done for somebody else in the
same circumstance, but for some reason could not be done for
this one. Nuts.
Because after the first instance, the registrar had been
reprimanded for breaking the law, and told in no uncertain terms
not to do it again.
If the change had been carried out once to correct the initial
mistake, I see no reason why it could not be done a second time,
It's not the baby's fault.
Because it's against the law, and public servants are not supposed to
break the law?
I agree of course that there is an injustice here, but the way to
remedy it is not to ignore the law but to fix it.
"In a twist to the tale, Sarah Power, who registered her baby daughter
at the same register office – with the same registrar – in October last
year, had a similar experience.
“The registrar read back all the details correctly – including that our
daughter was female – and then asked us to check the spellings of the
name,” she said. “We checked the spelling but not the gender, because
the registrar had already said it to us correctly.”
“It was only when we got outside the office door that we looked at the
certificate and realised that our daughter had been registered as male.”
Power, however, was able to get a new, corrected birth certificate for
her daughter after the registrar directed her to a GPO form. The Home
Office, however, say this is no longer an option. ‘The local
registration service was advised earlier this year not to issue
[corrected] certificates in this way,” they said."
Why was this change mandated, if it worked?
Does the law say what counts as a gender? (And doesn't it say sex, not
gender?) (My birth certificate doesn't say either male or female.)
--
Max Demian
Roger Hayter
2024-11-22 18:55:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Max Demian
Post by Davey
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 12:33:37 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Davey
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 12:15:14 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by Davey
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 10:12:45 +0000
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by miked
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/19/baby-girl-registered-wrong-sex-mansfield-registration-office
So the registrar put the wrong sex down on the birth
certificate in Mansfield. However AIUI you can get a new birth
certificate if you change sex, although you must first get a
dr to confirm your new gender. So why cant the parents can get
a dr to confirm the babys gender and get the birth certificate
reissued?
On the face of it, this does seem ridiculous, and I suspect
that it may well be susceptible to judicial review. Certainly,
if I was in their position, I'd be looking at taking it
further.
I red somewhere that it had been done for somebody else in the
same circumstance, but for some reason could not be done for
this one. Nuts.
Because after the first instance, the registrar had been
reprimanded for breaking the law, and told in no uncertain terms
not to do it again.
If the change had been carried out once to correct the initial
mistake, I see no reason why it could not be done a second time,
It's not the baby's fault.
Because it's against the law, and public servants are not supposed to
break the law?
I agree of course that there is an injustice here, but the way to
remedy it is not to ignore the law but to fix it.
"In a twist to the tale, Sarah Power, who registered her baby daughter
at the same register office – with the same registrar – in October last
year, had a similar experience.
“The registrar read back all the details correctly – including that our
daughter was female – and then asked us to check the spellings of the
name,” she said. “We checked the spelling but not the gender, because
the registrar had already said it to us correctly.”
“It was only when we got outside the office door that we looked at the
certificate and realised that our daughter had been registered as male.”
Power, however, was able to get a new, corrected birth certificate for
her daughter after the registrar directed her to a GPO form. The Home
Office, however, say this is no longer an option. ‘The local
registration service was advised earlier this year not to issue
[corrected] certificates in this way,” they said."
Why was this change mandated, if it worked?
Does the law say what counts as a gender? (And doesn't it say sex, not
gender?) (My birth certificate doesn't say either male or female.)
Doesn't it say 'boy'?
--
Roger Hayter
BrritSki
2024-11-22 13:19:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Davey
On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 10:12:45 +0000
Post by Mark Goodge
Post by miked
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/19/baby-girl-registered-wrong-sex-mansfield-registration-office
So the registrar put the wrong sex down on the birth certificate in
Mansfield. However AIUI you can get a new birth certificate if you
change sex, although you must first get a dr to confirm your new
gender. So why cant the parents can get a dr to confirm the babys
gender and get the birth certificate reissued?
On the face of it, this does seem ridiculous, and I suspect that it
may well be susceptible to judicial review. Certainly, if I was in
their position, I'd be looking at taking it further.
Mark
I red somewhere that it had been done for somebody else in the same
circumstance, but for some reason could not be done for this one. Nuts.
Or no nuts, as the case may be...
billy bookcase
2024-11-22 10:41:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by miked
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/19/baby-girl-registered-wrong-sex-mansfield-registration-office
So the registrar put the wrong sex down on the birth certificate in
Mansfield. However AIUI you can get a new birth certificate if you
change sex, although you must first get a dr to confirm your new gender.
So why cant the parents can get a dr to confirm the babys gender and get
the birth certificate reissued?
Possibly

A Birth Cerificate is simply a record of the details entered by the
designated registrar *at the time the child's birth was first registered*

And thus the fact that a mistake was made at that time is strictly speaking
irrelevant

As a result of this, any one person can only ever have one Birth Certificate

And if this wasn't the case, possibly all sorts of practical difficulties might arise


bb
GB
2024-11-22 10:56:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by billy bookcase
Post by miked
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/19/baby-girl-registered-wrong-sex-mansfield-registration-office
So the registrar put the wrong sex down on the birth certificate in
Mansfield. However AIUI you can get a new birth certificate if you
change sex, although you must first get a dr to confirm your new gender.
So why cant the parents can get a dr to confirm the babys gender and get
the birth certificate reissued?
Possibly
A Birth Cerificate is simply a record of the details entered by the
designated registrar *at the time the child's birth was first registered*
And thus the fact that a mistake was made at that time is strictly speaking
irrelevant
As a result of this, any one person can only ever have one Birth Certificate
And if this wasn't the case, possibly all sorts of practical difficulties might arise
I assume that the computerised register mimics a manual register?
Post by billy bookcase
bb
billy bookcase
2024-11-22 13:20:14 UTC
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Permalink
Post by GB
I assume that the computerised register mimics a manual register?
I wouldn't claim to know the answer to that.

But the very idea that there is now a computerised register is probably
what gives rise to the idea that Birth Certificates can easily be altered.

And so why not ?

Except of course that in theory a computerised register is probably also
more open to falsification, forgery, hacking in addition to official
alterations.


bb
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-22 12:13:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by billy bookcase
Post by miked
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/19/baby-girl-registered-wrong-sex-mansfield-registration-office
So the registrar put the wrong sex down on the birth certificate in
Mansfield. However AIUI you can get a new birth certificate if you
change sex, although you must first get a dr to confirm your new gender.
So why cant the parents can get a dr to confirm the babys gender and get
the birth certificate reissued?
Possibly
A Birth Cerificate is simply a record of the details entered by the
designated registrar *at the time the child's birth was first registered*
And thus the fact that a mistake was made at that time is strictly
speaking irrelevant
As a result of this, any one person can only ever have one Birth Certificate
And if this wasn't the case, possibly all sorts of practical
difficulties might arise
While what you're saying is sort of true, as far as I can tell
the way Gender Recognition Certificates work is that they are
indistinguishable from birth certificates, i.e. when you show one
to someone they have no way of knowing that it is a Gender
Recognition Certificate rather than a Birth Certificate. So for
almost all purposes, a person can indeed effectively have two
"birth certificates".
billy bookcase
2024-11-22 13:06:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by billy bookcase
Post by miked
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/19/baby-girl-registered-wrong-sex-mansfield-registration-office
So the registrar put the wrong sex down on the birth certificate in
Mansfield. However AIUI you can get a new birth certificate if you
change sex, although you must first get a dr to confirm your new gender.
So why cant the parents can get a dr to confirm the babys gender and get
the birth certificate reissued?
Possibly
A Birth Cerificate is simply a record of the details entered by the
designated registrar *at the time the child's birth was first registered*
And thus the fact that a mistake was made at that time is strictly
speaking irrelevant
As a result of this, any one person can only ever have one Birth Certificate
And if this wasn't the case, possibly all sorts of practical
difficulties might arise
While what you're saying is sort of true, as far as I can tell
the way Gender Recognition Certificates work is that they are
indistinguishable from birth certificates, i.e. when you show one
to someone they have no way of knowing that it is a Gender
Recognition Certificate rather than a Birth Certificate. So for
almost all purposes, a person can indeed effectively have two
"birth certificates".
But wouldn't someone have to sign at tbe bottom, saying these
details are corresct * as of a certain date *. ?

Otherwise wouldn't that render any relevant documents signed by
the person prior to the change, open to to a possible claim for
misreprentation ?

One thing that does emerge is that *subsequent* corrections
(not that there should ever be any need, but that another
question ) don't seem to get sufficient emphasis, Just a small
note. Whereas possibly all such corrected Cerificates should
have maybe a coloured border and the incorrect entry ringed
and the amendement in larger type.


bb
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-22 13:51:33 UTC
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Post by billy bookcase
Post by Jon Ribbens
While what you're saying is sort of true, as far as I can tell
the way Gender Recognition Certificates work is that they are
indistinguishable from birth certificates, i.e. when you show one
to someone they have no way of knowing that it is a Gender
Recognition Certificate rather than a Birth Certificate. So for
almost all purposes, a person can indeed effectively have two
"birth certificates".
But wouldn't someone have to sign at tbe bottom, saying these
details are corresct * as of a certain date *. ?
Yes, at the bottom it says "Certified to be a true copy of an entry
in a register in my custody <signature of registrar> <date of copy>".

You'll note it's *the date of the copy* not the date of the birth.
So it's not at all surprising if the "birth" certificate you show
someone is dated many years after your actual birth - you may have
never had a copy of your birth certificate dated near your birth,
or you or your parents may have lost it in the years since. Also
it says "an entry in my register" not "an entry in my register of
births", so it's non-specific as to whether it's from the birth or
gender recognition registers.

(I am looking at a copy of my own birth certificate for reference
here, which is dated a few days after my birth and was clearly
created by hand on a typewriter, and even has a price shown in
pounds, shillings, and pence - overtyped by a series of 'x's -
even though it was some years after Decimal Day. My point being
that none of this is new or as a result of changes caused by the
Gender Recognition Act.)
Post by billy bookcase
Otherwise wouldn't that render any relevant documents signed by
the person prior to the change, open to to a possible claim for
misreprentation ?
I don't know what you're getting at there.
Post by billy bookcase
One thing that does emerge is that *subsequent* corrections
(not that there should ever be any need, but that another
question ) don't seem to get sufficient emphasis, Just a small
note. Whereas possibly all such corrected Cerificates should
have maybe a coloured border and the incorrect entry ringed
and the amendement in larger type.
I'm not sure what you're referring to here either.
billy bookcase
2024-11-22 14:50:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Jon Ribbens
While what you're saying is sort of true, as far as I can tell
the way Gender Recognition Certificates work is that they are
indistinguishable from birth certificates, i.e. when you show one
to someone they have no way of knowing that it is a Gender
Recognition Certificate rather than a Birth Certificate. So for
almost all purposes, a person can indeed effectively have two
"birth certificates".
But wouldn't someone have to sign at tbe bottom, saying these
details are corresct * as of a certain date *. ?
Yes, at the bottom it says "Certified to be a true copy of an entry
in a register in my custody <signature of registrar> <date of copy>".
But how can it be a "true copy", if the gender on the original
Certificate has been changed ?

And that fact isn't at least acknowleged. And the date of the
change noted ?
Post by Jon Ribbens
You'll note it's *the date of the copy* not the date of the birth.
So it's not at all surprising if the "birth" certificate you show
someone is dated many years after your actual birth - you may have
never had a copy of your birth certificate dated near your birth,
or you or your parents may have lost it in the years since. Also
it says "an entry in my register" not "an entry in my register of
births", so it's non-specific as to whether it's from the birth or
gender recognition registers.
(I am looking at a copy of my own birth certificate for reference
here, which is dated a few days after my birth and was clearly
created by hand on a typewriter, and even has a price shown in
pounds, shillings, and pence - overtyped by a series of 'x's -
even though it was some years after Decimal Day. My point being
that none of this is new or as a result of changes caused by the
Gender Recognition Act.)
But none of the details on your Birth cerificate had been
changed, had they ?
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by billy bookcase
Otherwise wouldn't that render any relevant documents signed by
the person prior to the change, open to to a possible claim for
misreprentation ?
I don't know what you're getting at there.
In the case of sex change, rather than a mistaken entry. Supposing
somebody changes their sex on OCT 20th 2003. Say from Male to Female
Unless their "Birth Certificate" records the date of the change
then if they were obtaining higher wages by virtue of being males
at any time prior to that date then it wouild be open to their employers
to claim they were defrauding their employers by virtue of actually
being famale as confirmed by their "original Birth Cerificate".
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by billy bookcase
One thing that does emerge is that *subsequent* corrections
(not that there should ever be any need, but that another
question ) don't seem to get sufficient emphasis, Just a small
note. Whereas possibly all such corrected Cerificates should
have maybe a coloured border and the incorrect entry ringed
and the amendement in larger type.
I'm not sure what you're referring to here either.
As per the original article

quote:

But Bingham said this is not enough. “People reading a birth certificate
might easily miss a tiny note in the margin –

“Legal advice has confirmed that issuing a certificate without
including the marginal note following a correction to the entry
in the birth register is not compliant with the law,” they stated.

unquote:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/19/baby-girl-registered-wrong-sex-mansfield-registration-office

bb
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-22 16:10:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Jon Ribbens
While what you're saying is sort of true, as far as I can tell
the way Gender Recognition Certificates work is that they are
indistinguishable from birth certificates, i.e. when you show one
to someone they have no way of knowing that it is a Gender
Recognition Certificate rather than a Birth Certificate. So for
almost all purposes, a person can indeed effectively have two
"birth certificates".
But wouldn't someone have to sign at tbe bottom, saying these
details are corresct * as of a certain date *. ?
Yes, at the bottom it says "Certified to be a true copy of an entry
in a register in my custody <signature of registrar> <date of copy>".
But how can it be a "true copy", if the gender on the original
Certificate has been changed ?
Because nothing has been changed. It is a "true copy" of an entry
in the *gender recognition* register. As I said, it doesn't specify
anywhere on it which register it's from, and you can't infer it from
any of the information on it, including the dates.
Post by billy bookcase
And that fact isn't at least acknowleged. And the date of the
change noted ?
Indeed. That's deliberate, of course. The *whole point* is that
it's nobody else's business that the same individual used to be
considered legally a different gender to the one they have now.
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Jon Ribbens
You'll note it's *the date of the copy* not the date of the birth.
So it's not at all surprising if the "birth" certificate you show
someone is dated many years after your actual birth - you may have
never had a copy of your birth certificate dated near your birth,
or you or your parents may have lost it in the years since. Also
it says "an entry in my register" not "an entry in my register of
births", so it's non-specific as to whether it's from the birth or
gender recognition registers.
(I am looking at a copy of my own birth certificate for reference
here, which is dated a few days after my birth and was clearly
created by hand on a typewriter, and even has a price shown in
pounds, shillings, and pence - overtyped by a series of 'x's -
even though it was some years after Decimal Day. My point being
that none of this is new or as a result of changes caused by the
Gender Recognition Act.)
But none of the details on your Birth cerificate had been
changed, had they ?
No. Well, except the price, as mentioned. Your point is...?
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by billy bookcase
Otherwise wouldn't that render any relevant documents signed by
the person prior to the change, open to to a possible claim for
misreprentation ?
I don't know what you're getting at there.
In the case of sex change, rather than a mistaken entry. Supposing
somebody changes their sex on OCT 20th 2003. Say from Male to Female
Unless their "Birth Certificate" records the date of the change
then if they were obtaining higher wages by virtue of being males
at any time prior to that date then it wouild be open to their employers
to claim they were defrauding their employers by virtue of actually
being famale as confirmed by their "original Birth Cerificate".
So the employer would be admitting in writing to breaking the law by
comitting direct discrimination? And the gains of this "fraud", were
that not an obviously nonsensical idea, would be what the person was
legally entitled to anyway?
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by billy bookcase
One thing that does emerge is that *subsequent* corrections
(not that there should ever be any need, but that another
question ) don't seem to get sufficient emphasis, Just a small
note. Whereas possibly all such corrected Cerificates should
have maybe a coloured border and the incorrect entry ringed
and the amendement in larger type.
I'm not sure what you're referring to here either.
As per the original article
But Bingham said this is not enough. “People reading a birth certificate
might easily miss a tiny note in the margin –
“Legal advice has confirmed that issuing a certificate without
including the marginal note following a correction to the entry
in the birth register is not compliant with the law,” they stated.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/19/baby-girl-registered-wrong-sex-mansfield-registration-office
There's nothing to indicate that they've even seen such a marginal
amendment, and are just assuming. The law (the Births and Deaths
Registration Act 1953 s29) just says "an entry in the margin",
with nothing about its size or colour. Presumably a big circle
around the erroneous part of the register is not allowed, but the
parents can of course easily point the amendment out to anyone who
needs to see it - which basically means only the Passport Office,
because after that very few people are likely to ever need to see
the birth certificate ever again.
billy bookcase
2024-11-22 17:08:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Therre may be other snippage only I've forgotten
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Jon Ribbens
While what you're saying is sort of true, as far as I can tell
the way Gender Recognition Certificates work is that they are
indistinguishable from birth certificates, i.e. when you show one
to someone they have no way of knowing that it is a Gender
Recognition Certificate rather than a Birth Certificate. So for
almost all purposes, a person can indeed effectively have two
"birth certificates".
But wouldn't someone have to sign at tbe bottom, saying these
details are corresct * as of a certain date *. ?
Yes, at the bottom it says "Certified to be a true copy of an entry
in a register in my custody <signature of registrar> <date of copy>".
But how can it be a "true copy", if the gender on the original
Certificate has been changed ?
Because nothing has been changed. It is a "true copy" of an entry
in the *gender recognition* register.
Which is what ?

This is in addition to the Registry of Births Marriages and Deaths ?

So its now the Registry of Births Marriages Deaths and Gender Recognition"

And when registering parents are now issued with two certificates ?

A Birth Certificate abd a Gender Recognition Certificate ?



As I said, it doesn't specify
Post by Jon Ribbens
anywhere on it which register it's from, and you can't infer it from
any of the information on it, including the dates.
Post by billy bookcase
And that fact isn't at least acknowleged. And the date of the
change noted ?
Indeed. That's deliberate, of course. The *whole point* is that
it's nobody else's business that the same individual used to be
considered legally a different gender to the one they have now.
Really ? Nobody's ?
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Jon Ribbens
You'll note it's *the date of the copy* not the date of the birth.
So it's not at all surprising if the "birth" certificate you show
someone is dated many years after your actual birth - you may have
never had a copy of your birth certificate dated near your birth,
or you or your parents may have lost it in the years since. Also
it says "an entry in my register" not "an entry in my register of
births", so it's non-specific as to whether it's from the birth or
gender recognition registers.
(I am looking at a copy of my own birth certificate for reference
here, which is dated a few days after my birth and was clearly
created by hand on a typewriter, and even has a price shown in
pounds, shillings, and pence - overtyped by a series of 'x's -
even though it was some years after Decimal Day. My point being
that none of this is new or as a result of changes caused by the
Gender Recognition Act.)
But none of the details on your Birth cerificate had been
changed, had they ?
No. Well, except the price, as mentioned. Your point is...?
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by billy bookcase
Otherwise wouldn't that render any relevant documents signed by
the person prior to the change, open to to a possible claim for
misreprentation ?
I don't know what you're getting at there.
In the case of sex change, rather than a mistaken entry. Supposing
somebody changes their sex on OCT 20th 2003. Say from Male to Female
Unless their "Birth Certificate" records the date of the change
then if they were obtaining higher wages by virtue of being males
at any time prior to that date then it wouild be open to their employers
to claim they were defrauding their employers by virtue of actually
being famale as confirmed by their "original Birth Cerificate".
So the employer would be admitting in writing to breaking the law by
comitting direct discrimination?
A person who changed their sex in 2003 might have beem working
since the 1960s when differential pay rates for men and women were
all quite legal.

In fact I'd imagine the older a person is the least duisruptive it would
be for other family memebers if they decided to change their sex.
Post by Jon Ribbens
And the gains of this "fraud", were
that not an obviously nonsensical idea, would be what the person was
legally entitled to anyway?
Not according to their contracts. If a person such as the above was unsure of
their ir sexuality but was physically ,male - such as to satisfy medicals then
they'd have been paid at male rates.

Whereas if they'd decided early on that they no longer considered themselves
male, and so were uncomfortable using male facilities then their employer would
probably have terminated their contract at that point. To save problems all
round.
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by billy bookcase
Post by Jon Ribbens
Post by billy bookcase
One thing that does emerge is that *subsequent* corrections
(not that there should ever be any need, but that another
question ) don't seem to get sufficient emphasis, Just a small
note. Whereas possibly all such corrected Cerificates should
have maybe a coloured border and the incorrect entry ringed
and the amendement in larger type.
I'm not sure what you're referring to here either.
As per the original article
But Bingham said this is not enough. “People reading a birth certificate
might easily miss a tiny note in the margin –
“Legal advice has confirmed that issuing a certificate without
including the marginal note following a correction to the entry
in the birth register is not compliant with the law,” they stated.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/19/baby-girl-registered-wrong-sex-mansfield-registration-office
There's nothing to indicate that they've even seen such a marginal
amendment, and are just assuming.
Again the link

quote:

The General Register Office (GRO), which is responsible for administering all civil
registration in
England and Wales, and the Home Office have both confirmed that Lilah's birth certificate
cannot
be reissued, * although an amendment can be made in the margin of the original document.*

unquote

But then, what would they know ?

<snip>

bb
Max Demian
2024-11-22 18:03:34 UTC
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Post by billy bookcase
Post by miked
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/19/baby-girl-registered-wrong-sex-mansfield-registration-office
So the registrar put the wrong sex down on the birth certificate in
Mansfield. However AIUI you can get a new birth certificate if you
change sex, although you must first get a dr to confirm your new gender.
So why cant the parents can get a dr to confirm the babys gender and get
the birth certificate reissued?
Possibly
A Birth Cerificate is simply a record of the details entered by the
designated registrar *at the time the child's birth was first registered*
And thus the fact that a mistake was made at that time is strictly speaking
irrelevant
As a result of this, any one person can only ever have one Birth Certificate
A Birth Certificate is a certified *copy* of the entry in the register.
You can have as many copies of something as you want. That's what the
word means.
--
Max Demian
billy bookcase
2024-11-22 18:24:51 UTC
Reply
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Post by Max Demian
Post by billy bookcase
Post by miked
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/19/baby-girl-registered-wrong-sex-mansfield-registration-office
So the registrar put the wrong sex down on the birth certificate in
Mansfield. However AIUI you can get a new birth certificate if you
change sex, although you must first get a dr to confirm your new gender.
So why cant the parents can get a dr to confirm the babys gender and get
the birth certificate reissued?
Possibly
A Birth Cerificate is simply a record of the details entered by the
designated registrar *at the time the child's birth was first registered*
And thus the fact that a mistake was made at that time is strictly speaking
irrelevant
As a result of this, any one person can only ever have one Birth Certificate
A Birth Certificate is a certified *copy* of the entry in the register.
Yes. And any one person can only ever have one entry in the register.

You can make as many copies as you like, but they'll all still only be copies
of that same "one entry", in the Register
Post by Max Demian
You can have as many copies of something as you want. That's what the word means.
Which will be all the same.

And will all be copies of the "one thing"


bb
Jon Ribbens
2024-11-22 11:13:20 UTC
Reply
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Post by miked
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/19/baby-girl-registered-wrong-sex-mansfield-registration-office
So the registrar put the wrong sex down on the birth certificate in
Mansfield. However AIUI you can get a new birth certificate if you
change sex, although you must first get a dr to confirm your new gender.
So why cant the parents can get a dr to confirm the babys gender and get
the birth certificate reissued?
Because you can't make an application for a Gender Recognition
Certificate on someone else's behalf, you have to do it yourself.
And you have to be over 18 to do so. And you have to have "gender
dysphoria", which obviously you won't if nobody ever actually
thought you were another gender, you're just trying to fix a
bureaucratic mistake on a piece of paper.
Jethro_uk
2024-11-22 15:55:07 UTC
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Having already read the frothing on Mumsnet (!) about this, I strongly
believe there is a lot more under the reporting we aren't being told.
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